New cheap file server thoughts

[Tolyngee]

1) What will you be doing with this PC? Gaming? Photoshop? Web browsing? etc
dedicated file server, nothing more
2) What's your budget? Are tax and shipping included?
Curious to try and go as cheap as possible (without going too cheap). No boundary on price, but saving money is the goal.
3) Where do you live?
NE
4) What exact parts do you need for that budget? CPU, RAM, case, etc. "Everything" is not a valid answer. Please list out all the parts you'll need.
Case, RAM, mobo, CPU, PSU, OS (yes, "everything")
5) If reusing any parts, what parts will you be reusing? Please be especially specific about the power supply. List make and model.
keyboard, mouse, RAID cards (Sorry, not trying to be sarcastic...)
6) Will you be overclocking?
Nope. Might consider an underclock though.
7) What size monitor do you have and/or plan to have?
I'll either connect this via VGA port or DVI to whatever I have available (onboard video may not support 2560x1600?)
8) When do you plan on building/buying the PC?
combo discounts end 8/31, so wanted help deciding if this is too cheap to consider
9) What features do you need in a motherboard? RAID? Firewire? Crossfire or SLI support? etc.
PCI slots for RAID cards (RAID cards are PCI-X, so must be enough overlap room for the PCI-X part of the card to fit), mobo onboard SATA connectors nice if not covered by RAID cards once installed
10) Do you already have a legit and reusable/transferable OS key/license? If yes, what OS? 32bit or 64bit?
No. Can go Vista for $50, or may learn Linux. Just a file server.


Okay, some combo discounts run out Tue 8/31.

My typical strategy has been to use what last old system was and turn it into a file server. Still can easily do that.

But I noticed how darn cheap it can be to build one from scratch. Some mobo/CPU combos are well below $100 (some $70 AMIR), and 2GB of RAM for them is ~$44. So, mobo/CPU/RAM for ~$120 is hard to ignore.

For case considering a Norco 4020.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.457832

This combo has a Norco (with DVD burner) and an OCZ 600W PSU for $310 shipped ($290 AMIR).

(more on this in a sec, but the case is cheaper with the combo AMIR than alone, so I'll get the PSU regardless)

Now, the PSU. I already got one of these recently basically for free:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817341016

And the Norco would come with this for free:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817341017

Now, I believe it was Paul and Zero82z who said these PSUs are possible junk. My question is, should I not use them at all?

Period?

(If they're junk, it explains why they're being given away for free...)

What got me thinking about this was that Ockie apparently felt cheap mobos were fine for his big server builds:

http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1033721267&postcount=4

And I'll use Flex-RAID to conserve power:

http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1035963728&postcount=245
(1100W usage down to 350W by not running a RAID-50/60)


So, Ockie's post was what first got me to look at cheap mobos:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.478049
BIOSTAR TA785 A2+ AM3/AM2+/AM2 AMD 785G ATX AMD Motherboard
AMD Sempron 140 Sargas 2.7GHz 1MB L2 Cache Socket AM3 45W Single-Core Processor SDX140HBGQBOX
$80 ($70 AMIR)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.478018
BIOSTAR TA785 A2+ AM3/AM2+/AM2 AMD 785G ATX AMD Motherboard
AMD Athlon II X2 245 Regor 2.9GHz 2 x 1MB L2 Cache Socket AM3 65W Dual-Core Desktop Processor ADX245OCGQBOX
$103 ($93 AMIR)

The TA785 has onboard video, so don't have to worry about a video card.
CPU is not OEM, so comes with HSF.
So, except for RAM, it's good to go.

Is that mobo too cheap? I'm used to high-end mobos that get demoted once I build a new game machine (which I just did). But, as said, at ~$120 for the entire heart of a system, I'll consider a new build.

Now, the TA785 does have AMD NB/SB chipsets. Is this any reason to avoid it?

Also, I am not sure what Flex's CPU requirements may be. It is software RAID, but I'm not sure if the CPU or the HDs will be the bottleneck for when I'm doing a build/re-sync/repair operation. That's why I include a simple single-core and a dual-core. I don't see it needing beyond the dual-core. I understand it's only a $20 difference, but I am also looking at the power savings of the cheaper CPU if I don't need much of a CPU.


Also, the Norco fits 20 HDs for ~$300. So, $15/HD.

Other ideas are:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119152
COOLER MASTER Centurion 590 RC-590-KKN1-GP Black SECC / ABS ATX Mid Tower Computer Case
$70

I already own some 3x5 HD brackets. SO, with its nine external 5.25" bays, I could stuff 15 HDs into that without any extra cost. Slightly more difficult to install/uninstall HDs, but at least the HDs plug directly into the SATA cable (I've heard the Norco backplanes go bad?)

So, I'm potentially looking at $70/15 HDs. So, <$5/HD.

http://www.servercase.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=BR2U19&Category_Code=Acce.

Even if buying new brackets (three for ~$100), it's $170/15 HDs. $11/HD. Still cheaper than the Norco. (Although you now need a new machine every 15 HDs instead of the Norco every 20 HDs, so I'm sure the $4/HD savings is probably negated there... Haven't completely done the math, and it's 2am...)

(Also, with Flex you can add more HDs as needed, and upgrade sizes as needed. So, using 2TB HDs, 15HDs is already 30TB. Once bigger HDs come out, I could replace 2TB HDs with 3TB drives, and get 45TB without a new machine. So I may never need a new machine. Another thought to consider.)


Well, this is where my thinking has led me.

Thoughts on cases?

Thoughts on too cheap?

Thoughts on (junk?) free PSUs?


Also, none of this data is critical. I can afford a mobo failure etc etc, as long as it doesn't damage the HDs in the process. (so junk mobo failing isn't so bad, junk PSU killing system components unacceptable... I will not use a PSU if it doesn't belong in a machine, I'm not that cheap... I typically use Corsair TXs)


Well, I've probably overlooked some thoughts quickly typing here.

I just realized those combos end soon, and wasn't sure if I should consider them and jump on anything.

Thanks for your thoughts here. Don't be afraid to say anything's crap, that's what I want to find out.

I already have an old e7400 CPU system on a multi PCI slot mobo, so I don't need to buy anything to build a file server. But couldn't help but consider it when things are cheap.

Thanks again!

 

[bastage]

for a basic file server I Think your going way more then you need to.. Try a dual core atom with WHS. No need for a raid card there, just use cheapo SATA expansion card. & How many hard drives do you anticipate using? & Are they new or salvaged, If salvaged what sizes.. I Have seen several people try to use old drives & have to spend more on the rest of the system then newer larger capacity drives would have been in the 1st place, So if yor doing the 4020 to be able to hold existing disks you may be able to cut CONSIDERABLE cost there by going to newer disks

 

[Dangman]

Now, the PSU. I already got one of these recently basically for free:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817341016

And the Norco would come with this for free:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817341017

Now, I believe it was Paul and Zero82z who said these PSUs are possible junk. My question is, should I not use them at all?

Period?

(If they're junk, it explains why they're being given away for free...)

More than likely it was Zero82z who said that PSU was junk. He's more vocal about Sirtec PSUs than others. They've been shown to be ok-ish PSUs. Good enough for a general use PC and low power gaming PC. But for a file server? I wouldn't try it. I'd recommend getting a solid 750W PSU with at least 60A on the +12V rail for a 20 drive setup.

Flex RAID might lower idle power usage but it's the startup power that you still have to factor in. Hence the recommendation for a larger PSU.

What got me thinking about this was that Ockie apparently felt cheap mobos were fine for his big server builds:

http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1033721267&postcount=4

Been doing the same: My WHS server is based off a ECS mobo. Works just fine.

So, Ockie's post was what first got me to look at cheap mobos:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.478049
BIOSTAR TA785 A2+ AM3/AM2+/AM2 AMD 785G ATX AMD Motherboard
AMD Sempron 140 Sargas 2.7GHz 1MB L2 Cache Socket AM3 45W Single-Core Processor SDX140HBGQBOX
$80 ($70 AMIR)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.478018
BIOSTAR TA785 A2+ AM3/AM2+/AM2 AMD 785G ATX AMD Motherboard
AMD Athlon II X2 245 Regor 2.9GHz 2 x 1MB L2 Cache Socket AM3 65W Dual-Core Desktop Processor ADX245OCGQBOX
$103 ($93 AMIR)

Is that mobo too cheap? I'm used to high-end mobos that get demoted once I build a new game machine (which I just did). But, as said, at ~$120 for the entire heart of a system, I'll consider a new build.

I wouldn't get either setup since you can get a sligthly more upgradeable setup for not that much more:
$101 - AMD Athlon II X2 245 CPU + Biostar TA785G3HD AMD 785G mATX Motherboard
$43 - Patriot PSD32G13332 2GB DDR3 1333 RAM
----
Total: $144 (134 AR) plus tax and shipping

Now, the TA785 does have AMD NB/SB chipsets. Is this any reason to avoid it?

Not really.

Also, I am not sure what Flex's CPU requirements may be. It is software RAID, but I'm not sure if the CPU or the HDs will be the bottleneck for when I'm doing a build/re-sync/repair operation. That's why I include a simple single-core and a dual-core. I don't see it needing beyond the dual-core. I understand it's only a $20 difference, but I am also looking at the power savings of the cheaper CPU if I don't need much of a CPU.

Dual-core all the way. Software RAID is usually CPU heavy.

Also, the Norco fits 20 HDs for ~$300. So, $15/HD.

Other ideas are:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119152
COOLER MASTER Centurion 590 RC-590-KKN1-GP Black SECC / ABS ATX Mid Tower Computer Case
$70

I already own some 3x5 HD brackets. SO, with its nine external 5.25" bays, I could stuff 15 HDs into that without any extra cost. Slightly more difficult to install/uninstall HDs, but at least the HDs plug directly into the SATA cable (I've heard the Norco backplanes go bad?)

So, I'm potentially looking at $70/15 HDs. So, <$5/HD.

http://www.servercase.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=BR2U19&Category_Code=Acce.

Even if buying new brackets (three for ~$100), it's $170/15 HDs. $11/HD. Still cheaper than the Norco. (Although you now need a new machine every 15 HDs instead of the Norco every 20 HDs, so I'm sure the $4/HD savings is probably negated there... Haven't completely done the math, and it's 2am...)

What you didn't factor in is that the Norco has 20 hot-swap bays. So why that extra $4 per drive with the Norco route gets you hot-swap capability. Which means significantly faster and easier removal of hard drives.

 

[Tolyngee]

for a basic file server I Think your going way more then you need to.. Try a dual core atom with WHS. No need for a raid card there, just use cheapo SATA expansion card. & How many hard drives do you anticipate using? & Are they new or salvaged, If salvaged what sizes.. I Have seen several people try to use old drives & have to spend more on the rest of the system then newer larger capacity drives would have been in the 1st place, So if yor doing the 4020 to be able to hold existing disks you may be able to cut CONSIDERABLE cost there by going to newer disks

You obviously did not read my OP before responding, but thanks anyway.

 

[Tolyngee]

More than likely it was Zero82z who said that PSU was junk. He's more vocal about Sirtec PSUs than others. They've been shown to be ok-ish PSUs. Good enough for a general use PC and low power gaming PC. But for a file server? I wouldn't try it. I'd recommend getting a solid 750W PSU with at least 60A on the +12V rail for a 20 drive setup.

Flex RAID might lower idle power usage but it's the startup power that you still have to factor in. Hence the recommendation for a larger PSU.

Yes, I understand needing more than the 500W/600W PSU eventually, or I could even dual-PSU again. My main concern was if the PSUs are complete junk.

I was thinking going with the typical Corsairs again. Just trying to figure out if I can trust using the OCZs at all, or if I need to toss or sale 'em.

I'm using Flex as the server's going to start out slow and have HDs added as needed, probably a drive a month. So, filling it with HDs could even take a year.

I wouldn't get either setup since you can get a sligthly more upgradeable setup for not that much more:
$101 - AMD Athlon II X2 245 CPU + Biostar TA785G3HD AMD 785G mATX Motherboard
$43 - Patriot PSD32G13332 2GB DDR3 1333 RAM
----
Total: $144 (134 AR) plus tax and shipping

How is that more upgradeable for my needs? That motherboard is useless for what I need. It only has two PCI slots, and one is unusable thanks to the SB HS. See Ockie's pics of his server to see a PCI-X card in a PCI slot. That SB HS is in the way.

Dual-core all the way. Software RAID is usually CPU heavy.

I'm not sure, but for $20 difference I'd certainly hate to be wrong. Was mostly looking at energy savings with the single core, but again, would hate to be wrong.

What you didn't factor in is that the Norco has 20 hot-swap bays. So why that extra $4 per drive with the Norco route gets you hot-swap capability. Which means significantly faster and easier removal of hard drives.

[/quote]

I did. I said the Norco's easier to install/uninstall HDs.

I'm not certain everything I'm doing supports hot-swap anyway. It's not a big deal to shut the machine off to change HDs.

I'm factoring in hardware I already own, and that Norcos seem to have a possible problem with failing backplanes. If that fails, well, that sucks.


I am glad to know though that that mobo is okay to buy. Thanks!

 

[bastage]

You obviously did not read my OP before responding, but thanks anyway.

Oh no I read it.. more then once infact.. But alas it was at 4am my time & I responded in-between waking up on the recliner & moving to bed.

 

[Dangman]

Yes, I understand needing more than the 500W/600W PSU eventually, or I could even dual-PSU again. My main concern was if the PSUs are complete junk.

I was thinking going with the typical Corsairs again. Just trying to figure out if I can trust using the OCZs at all, or if I need to toss or sale 'em.

Sell the OCZs. Get Corsairs.

How is that more upgradeable for my needs? That motherboard is useless for what I need. It only has two PCI slots, and one is unusable thanks to the SB HS. See Ockie's pics of his server to see a PCI-X card in a PCI slot. That SB HS is in the way.

Hmm, didn't think that the SB HS would interfere with a PCI-X card. It's more upgradeable since A) it's socket AM3 so it'll have a higher chance of Bulldozer support and B) DDR3 RAM is gonna be cheaper than DDR2 RAM in the future.

I'm not sure, but for $20 difference I'd certainly hate to be wrong. Was mostly looking at energy savings with the single core, but again, would hate to be wrong.

It's only $20, I'm more than willing to bet that the idle power between the two CPUs are pretty much the same.