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new build critique

D

dalex

n00b
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
14
Hello,
Long time lurker, first time poster here...

Putting together a new computer here, it will be my second build ever, and considering my first (circa 2002) included a pretested mobo/RAM/processor combo from jncs.com, I am still new at this.
I'm a photographer (which is why I'm going with the NEC 2490) and gamer (at 1920x1200), and on a $2600 budget (but can be persuaded to spend a little more if the reason is good enough. Have never overclocked before, but plan to give it a try on this setup. After lurking around here, anandtech.com, tomshardware.com, and a couple other places, this is what I've come up with:

  • NEC 24" LCD2490wuxi-bk-sv ----$1249
  • EVGA 512-P3-N841-AR GeForce 8800GTS (G92) 512MB (overclocked version@670mhz)--- $200 (after MIR and two instant discounts)
  • ABIT IP35 Pro LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard ---- $135 (after MIR)
  • Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Quad-Core Processor, 2.40 GHz, 8M L2 Cache, LGA 775 (G0) -----$250
  • Crucial Ballistix 4GB(2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model BL2KIT25664AA804 ------$110
  • 850W Real Power Pro Psu - Coolermaster------$172
  • Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD6400AAKS 640GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM -----$130
  • Western Digital Raptor WD1500ADFD 150GB 10,000 RPM SATA 1.5Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM -----$170 (for OS, games, programs.... seemed like a good idea, but not sure it's worth it)
  • Arctic Silver 5 Thermal Compound - OEM ------$5.99
  • Antec Performance One P182 ATX Tower -------$70 (after MIR)

total= $2492

I'll be reusing my DVD burner from my first build as well as my Creative Soundblaster Audigy 2 EX

Since I plan on playing games at 1920x1200, and the low price of the 8800GTS ($200!) it was really hard to make the decision between nvidia's 780i chipset and SLI (would have went with the MSI Diamond motherboard) or Intel's P35 and possible future videocard upgrade. Decided to stick with the Intel and possibly use EVGA's stepup program to get the 9800GX2 when (if?) the price drops in a couple months.

Anyway, please give me any thoughts/opinions/concerns that come to mind! I'd greatly appreciate it.

Thanks!!
 
debatable. if he's using photoshop a lot, then a quad would be good, but he'll definitely have an easier time OCing with an e 8400

save the money from the raptor and go with sli, or save it for the gx2s.
 
looks solid

Do you need an after market CPU Heat Sink?
anand had an article about this one
Noctua NH-U12P, looks good.

i've been a fan of Scythe products though, especially the Ninja, which is now available in pure copper.

important part about MIRs, you need the invoice to send them in. So its one thing to buy, its another for the company to generate the invoice. (might take them more than a day)
you can get away with the sales confirmation, but this is fair warning.

This day the Raptor is still worth it, but depending on your definition. you can probably simply buy a WD 320GB single platter drive and short stroke it to get good performance. (format 260 or less GB and dont use the rest, ever) it might get very close to the raptor.
Seek times is where the raptor wins.

Dont know about the PSU, will let someone else chime in if its good.
 
leSLIe said:
i think you should go with this quad core instead
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115040
Click to expand...

I had thought about it, but figured the performance gains would probably be minimal and that it seemed there are better overclocking capabilities with the q6600, not to mention the dangers of going with new technology. Having said that, the low $30 difference in price makes it tempting. I found the q9450 in stock for $360 as well.... also tempting. Anyone have any opinions on this?

thrawn86 said:
debatable. if he's using photoshop a lot, then a quad would be good, but he'll definitely have an easier time OCing with an e 8400

save the money from the raptor and go with sli, or save it for the gx2s.
Click to expand...

I will be using photoshop cs3 a lot, as well as bridge, lightroom, illustrator, premiere, and some others...

dj LiTh said:
No CPU fan? nice oven
Click to expand...

Thanks, forgot to mention that I'm looking at the Thermalright Ultra 120 and the Zerotherm Nirvana NV120. The sanding process people mention in the user reviews at newegg for the Thermalright does not look like something I'd like to take on though. Not sure if those people are just trying to get a few extra degrees of cooling or if this is necessary.

Megalomaniac said:
looks solid

Do you need an after market CPU Heat Sink?
anand had an article about this one
Noctua NH-U12P, looks good.

i've been a fan of Scythe products though, especially the Ninja, which is now available in pure copper.

important part about MIRs, you need the invoice to send them in. So its one thing to buy, its another for the company to generate the invoice. (might take them more than a day)
you can get away with the sales confirmation, but this is fair warning.

This day the Raptor is still worth it, but depending on your definition. you can probably simply buy a WD 320GB single platter drive and short stroke it to get good performance. (format 260 or less GB and dont use the rest, ever) it might get very close to the raptor.
Seek times is where the raptor wins.

Dont know about the PSU, will let someone else chime in if its good.
Click to expand...

I'll definitely check out the heatsinks you mention there... ease of installation is a definite dealbreaker for me...
I'm ordering from Microcenter, Amazon, and Newegg, so there shouldn't be a problem with invoices.

Spending $100 less on a drive twice the capcity of the raptor sure is tempting...
 
invoices are generated when they are shipped ;)
which might be after the 31st... which is the expiration date for some MIR
(depending on when you order)
 
Looks good, the PSU is beefy, definitely overkill, but you can never have too much wattage. more power.
 
dj LiTh said:
looks good, what do you plan on oc'ing your q6600 to?
Click to expand...

I was thinking something in the neighborhood of 3ghz would be a safe bet for a first time oc.

I'm rethinking my choice of the q6600 though and taking a closer look at the q9450.
Looks like it's selling (when in stock) for about $350-60, and I know the lower multiplier means less overclockability, but I almost originally built around the 2.66mhz q6700 despite the ridiculous pricepoint above the q6600, so $350 is quite attractive. As is the 45nm architecture. I think. Not sure I want to go with brand new tech, and not sure there would be all that much of a perceivable performance increase.

xenotype said:
Looks good, the PSU is beefy, definitely overkill, but you can never have too much wattage. more power.
Click to expand...
agreed. I originally chose the PSU when I thought I would go SLI or gx2, but stuck with it to leave the door open to the latter later.
 
Its not entirely brand new... its mainly a die shrink with minor improvements. I don't know if you'd notice it or not, but there should be up to 10-15% performance improvement over the Q6600.

If you plan on quad or tri SLI, go with a 1KW. If you just plan on regular dual SLI, then the Corsair TX 750W is a much better buy, IMO.

Raptors aren't worth it, IMO. Check out this thread. It has benchmarks for both raptors and the new wd6400aaks drives:
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1284410
 
hi, i'm building a very similar 1920x1200 system.. and from researching other posts on this forum here.. Q6600 with a P35 motherboard and 4gb ddr2 6400 is proven to work well.. but i was just wondering about your video card choice..

it seems like at 1920 and higher.. GPU memory & its bandwidth become a big issue when AA and AF are turned on.. have you considered 8800 GTX/Ultra or did the $200 price tag made it an obvious choice to get the 8800 GTS 512MB? i'm still waiting for some official release reviews of the 9800 GTX as i'm still undecided between these cards..

also, what games do you intend to play? i do casual gaming.. currently TF2 and PES2008.. so those games are not too demanding..

another question.. if the CPU choice was a Q9450.. would a X38 motherboard be a better choice for the cpu for stability/overclocking? (given crossfire is not required)

thanks!
 
enginurd said:
Raptors aren't worth it, IMO. Check out this thread. It has benchmarks for both raptors and the new wd6400aaks drives:
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1284410
Click to expand...

according to that first page, a raptor still owns.
8.7 vs 16.3 (roughly) ms seek time?
that huge. considering how files always get fragmented.
the benefit of the new of is only in large file transfers.

but i wonder how a short stroked one would perform?
 
Megalomaniac said:
according to that first page, a raptor still owns.
8.7 vs 16.3 (roughly) ms seek time?
that huge. considering how files always get fragmented.
the benefit of the new of is only in large file transfers.

but i wonder how a short stroked one would perform?
Click to expand...

Its more like 90MB/s w/ 12.5ms (WD6400AAKS) vs. 72MB/s w/ 8.5ms (WD1500ADFD). That's a 4ms difference -- not much. Transfer rate will improve performance more, since the WD6400AAKS can do 90MB/s while the Raptor can only do ~72MB/s. With numbers like that, and the price per GB, Raptors are no longer worth their price premium, IMO. And for the record, I didn't buy my Raptor... twas a gift. ;) and no, I wouldn't buy another one unless the price and performance was better.
 
Many people have commented that the few seconds they've gained from using Raptors didn't justify their high noise/heat output... or their price. And though you may consider seek times to be king, many people look at transfer speeds as a better indicator of a drive's performance.

There's also little difference performance-wise between Intel's X38 and P35 chipsets. P35, being the older chipset, is a bit more mature and stable when it comes to overclocking. The big appeal for the X38 chipset -- or, the one that justifies its higher comparative price -- is dual PCIe x16 CrossFire.

For overclocking, the Q6600 is a better option than the Q9xxx series, due to its high (locked) multiplier and its low bus speed. Most motherboards, using air cooling, can't keep the northbridge cooled enough to push the Penryn quad-cores to their limits.
 
2 raptors in RAID 0 ftw, you can cry, you can post, you can shake your fist at the screen, but they pwn all other hdd :D

Not to mention they have features like command queing that many other hdd's do not
 
enginurd said:
Western Digital's Raptors in RAID-0: Are two drives better than one?
http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=2101
Click to expand...

Wow ya... thats great if you run on a ICH5/6 raid controller, speaking of which is only 4+ years old. Welcome to 2008, believe it or not there has been some advances in onboard raid, let alone that article tells nothing of the other via/nvidia/ect raid controllers. Speaking of which i doubt that, that motherboard even has the capability to make use of NCQ'ing that makes the raptors so appealing in the first place.

You sir = fail
 
dj LiTh said:
Wow ya... thats great if you run on a ICH5/6 raid controller, speaking of which is only 4+ years old. Welcome to 2008, believe it or not there has been some advances in onboard raid, let alone that article tells nothing of the other via/nvidia/ect raid controllers. Speaking of which i doubt that, that motherboard even has the capability to make use of NCQ'ing that makes the raptors so appealing in the first place.

You sir = fail
Click to expand...

Here are some more current benchmarks.

While these benchmarks prove that a RAID 0 Raptor configuration is still the best setup around, for many people that have tried the Raptors before (including enginurd, and including me), they still are not worth the price premium. Granted, the majority of us that have made that assessment used only one Raptor drive, but a lot of people can't afford getting two Raptors at the same time. Given the majority of the tasks that most of the people around here perform on their PCs, neither Raptor HDDs nor RAID setups are necessary.

dalex said:
I'm [...] on a $2600 budget [...] this is what I've come up with:

  • NEC 24" LCD2490wuxi-bk-sv ----$1249
  • EVGA 512-P3-N841-AR GeForce 8800GTS (G92) 512MB (overclocked version@670mhz)--- $200 (after MIR and two instant discounts)
  • ABIT IP35 Pro LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard ---- $135 (after MIR)
  • Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Quad-Core Processor, 2.40 GHz, 8M L2 Cache, LGA 775 (G0) -----$250
  • Crucial Ballistix 4GB(2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model BL2KIT25664AA804 ------$110
  • 850W Real Power Pro Psu - Coolermaster------$172
  • Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD6400AAKS 640GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM -----$130
  • Western Digital Raptor WD1500ADFD 150GB 10,000 RPM SATA 1.5Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM -----$170 (for OS, games, programs.... seemed like a good idea, but not sure it's worth it)
  • Arctic Silver 5 Thermal Compound - OEM ------$5.99
  • Antec Performance One P182 ATX Tower -------$70 (after MIR)
total= $2492

I'll be reusing my DVD burner from my first build as well as my Creative Soundblaster Audigy 2 EX
Click to expand...

I apologize for not mentioning this earlier, but you shouldn't use after-rebate prices... it throws some of us off. Considering the fact that your monitor is taking up nearly half of your proposed budget, the cost of your computer tower, before all MIRs are tallied, is closer to $1400.

To maximize some savings, I would suggest buying the Q6600 and the IP35 Pro at ClubIT. Though ClubIT only offers a $25 mail-in rebate for the IP35 Pro, you also receive (via a promotion code) a $20 instant rebate on the CPU/motheboard bundle.

The Q6600 is a better overclocker than any of the Q9-series quad-cores, due to its high multiplier and low bus speed, and its price (even before the discount) makes it a good choice. Use any of the recommended CPU coolers that were mentioned before.

Were you planning on buying the P182 from Microcenter? And where are you buying the 8800GTS from? (Make sure that it's the 512MB model... that's the one using the newer G92 GPU.)

Personal opinion time: I still don't think the 150GB Raptor is worth the extra money over the WD 640GB drive. Especially since you could get over four times the capacity for $50 less.

You don't need to spend that much money on RAM, especially since the Core 2 Quads don't benefit from any RAM overclock. You could purchase the A-DATA 4GB DDR2 800 kit, which would work just as well as the Crucial Ballistix, for $70 shipped (and you get a $20 MIR).

The Corsair TX750W would perform just as well as the CM 850W PSU for less. The TX750W is available at Buy.com for $150 shipped with a $35MIR (rebate expires on 3/31).
 
tiraides said:
Here are some more current benchmarks.

While these benchmarks prove that a RAID 0 Raptor configuration is still the best setup around, for many people that have tried the Raptors before (including enginurd, and including me), they still are not worth the price premium. Granted, the majority of us that have made that assessment used only one Raptor drive, but a lot of people can't afford getting two Raptors at the same time. Given the majority of the tasks that most of the people around here perform on their PCs, neither Raptor HDDs nor RAID setups are necessary.
Click to expand...

Now that makes sense, i totally agree 2 640's (raid 0 still makes sense) is better than 1 raptor, but if you spare no expense (and its not too great of an expense for two 74gb raptors or two 150gb raptors (150ishGB to 300GB of space for your running programs/games/os) i still think it makes sense. By the way i've had my two raptors (i think?) 5+ years now, i may be off a year or so, but they're still crankin no problem, and with a 5 year warranty anandtech.com's summery that its not smart to raid 0 is very foolish IMO.

Also just to add to this discussion, i would personally go with the 45nm q9x intel chip rather than the q6600. What hasnt been mentioned is SSE4.1 extensions which no applications currently take advantage of but will of course in the future which is a pure bonus for performance. Not to mention its 45nm vs 65nm and it being so new i'm still willing to bet that overclocking is better than the q6600 which if you read has its share of problems overclocking.
 
We don't know if/when programs will take advantage of SSE4.1, but for this discussion, it's a moot point.

The issue with the 45nm quad-cores in regards to overclocking is their low multiplier. It's not that they can't overclock well -- the E8400, which is also based of the 45nm Penryn processor, can reach 4GHz with relative ease -- but the northbridge on many motherboards would have to be pushed to their limits in order to get a decent overclock on one of them. For example:

c × [Base FSB speed] = CPU Clock speed (c = CPU Multiplier)
2 × [Base FSB speed] = RAM speed (DDR: double data rate)
4 × [Base FSB speed] = Effective FSB speed (QDR: quad data rate)

Stock Speeds/Base FSB speed = Multiplier
Q6600 (1066 FSB) => 1066/4 = 266 => 2400/266 = 9
Q9300 (1333 FSB) => 1333/4 = 333 => 2500/333 = 7.5
Q9450 (1333 FSB) => 1333/4 = 333 => 2670/333 = 8
Q9550 (1333 FSB) => 1333/4 = 333 => 2830/333 = 8.5
Click to expand...

Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 (with a locked multiplier of 9):
9 × 266 = 2.4Ghz, DDR2-533 << STOCK speeds
9 × 333 = 3.0Ghz, DDR2-667 << Nice OC
9 × 378 = 3.4Ghz, DDR2-800 << Good OC, near max for B3 stepping w/ good air cooling
9 × 400 = 3.6Ghz, DDR2-800 << Great OC, near max for G0 stepping w/ good air cooling
Click to expand...

Intel Core 2 Quad Q9300 (with a locked multiplier of 7.5):
7.5 x 333 = 2.5GHz, DDR2-667 << STOCK speeds
7.5 x 400 = 3.0GHz, DDR2-800 << Nice OC
7.5 x 450 = 3.4GHz, DDR2-1000 << Good OC, but difficult (if not impossible) w/o good cooling on northbridge
7.5 x 500 = 3.8GHz, DDR2-1000 << Great OC, but difficult (if not impossible) w/o good cooling on northbridge
Click to expand...

Because you could push the Q6600 higher with less difficulty, we consider it to be the "better" overclocker. In order to push any of the Penyrn quad-cores, you'll likely need active cooling on the northbridge... and even then, it won't guarantee that you'll be able to push the CPU to its limits.
 
Like I've been saying in numerous posts: yes, raptors are the fastest seeking, single, non-scsi hdds around. However, if you're looking to get the best performance for the least amount of your money, don't bother with them. ICH6 or ICH10, it doesnt matter. What matters is, Raptors are overpriced and have been surpassed, as far as transfer rates go, making them no longer worth their price premium.

Whether you go with a Q6600 or a Q9450 right now, on a P35 board, your OC will be similar. With the Q6600, you're limited by the chip. With the Q9450, or any other current Yorkfield, you'll be limited by the board -- they cant pump such high FSB speeds with quads. Now, when the Eaglelake chipsets come out in Q2'08, they should OC better, simply because of the die shrink.
 
Thanks for all the help everyone!

Here's what I ended up getting/will probably be buying shortly:
  • Intel Q9450 (the where, when, and how much are not definite due to short supply)
  • IP35-Pro ($135 after rebate)
  • Crucial Ballistix 2x2gb RAM DDR2 800 ($110)
  • EVGA 8800GTS 512mb ($200 after rebates)
  • NEC 24" LCD2490wUXI-BK-SV ($1225 at Provantage- was out of stock everywhere else)
  • Antec P182 case ($70 after rebate at microcenter, although I just got an email it's backordered. :rolleyes: )
  • COOLER MASTER Real Power Pro RS-850-EMBA ATX12V / EPS12V 850W Power Supply ($172 at Amazon) anyone have a better suggestion? Keeping in mind a possible future upgrade to the 9800GX2?
  • Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD6400AAKS 640GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive ($130)
  • Logitech G9 Black 5 Buttons Tilt Wheel USB Wired Laser Gaming Mouse ($55 at Amazon)
  • Arctic Silver 5 Thermal Compound ($6)
  • Heatsink of yet to be determined brand
 
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