new AM3 system

[Trauts]

1) What will you be doing with this PC? Gaming? Photoshop? Web browsing? etc
Mainly gaming and webbrowsing
2) What's your budget? Are tax and shipping included?
Trying to keep this upgrade under $500, but realistically, as little as possible for good performance. Yes.
3) Where do you live?
Washington state
4) What exact parts do you need for that budget? CPU, RAM, case, etc. "Everything" is not a valid answer. Please list out all the parts you'll need.
CPU, MoBo, RAM
5) If reusing any parts, what parts will you be reusing? Please be especially specific about the power supply. List make and model.

• Antec Nine Hundred Computer Case
• OCZ GameXStream OCZ700GXSSLI 700W ATX12V SLI Certified CrossFire Ready Active PFC Power Supply
• Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi (PCI)
• Radeon HD 5850

6) Will you be overclocking?
Quite possibly
7) What size monitor do you have and/or plan to have?
24" (1920x1200)
8) When do you plan on building/buying the PC?
Within the next month
9) What features do you need in a motherboard? RAID? Firewire? Crossfire or SLI support? etc.
Currently using a RAID0 setup on an nForce motherboard. Ideally I wouldn't need to reconfigure raid and could just use this setup... not sure if this is possible with an entirely different raid controller.
10) Do you already have a legit and reusable/transferable OS key/license? If so, what OS? 32bit or 64bit?
Win7 x64


I have some components in mind:
Processor: Phenom II X4 965 - THis seems like really good bang for the buck. There's an Intel i5 that has similar benchmark performance, but the price is slightly higher. A new processor is my primary reason for upgrading - I've got a Core 2 Duo E6750 right now, and it's starting to lag behind in games

Either of these motherboards (leaning towards the ASUS since it's cheaper and the only real difference is the listed memory speed, SLI support, and # of SATA channels. Asus also has a 3 yr warranty)

Buying memory is a little more difficult, and the main reason I'm posting here. I've never bought DDR3 before due to the higher timings. I'm kind of confused by the way the motherboards list their maximum supported speed - it looks like the ASUS board will support DDR3-1600 if and only if you've overclocked it. Likewise, the MSI supports "DDR3 2133 OC." Am I understanding right that you'd have to OC the processor to use these types of RAM?

From browsing around the forums, it seems like most people believe that there's not much advantage in DDR3-2000 over DDR3-1600, and since prices are cheaper on the latter, I was thinking about getting 4 or 8GB of this ram:

Finally, do you think I'll have to reformat the drives that are in RAID0?

What are your guys thoughts on this build? The RAM in particular is kind of up in the air.

Thanks guys!

 

[Dangman]

Well the most worrisome part of that entire list is the PSU you're reusing: Just be sure that you do not exceed past 500W. Otherwise, you're gonna start slowly killing the PC. So don't go for a crazy OC or multiple GPUs or more than two drives.

As for the rest:
- The Phenom II 965 does not have a good bang for the buck value. The Core i5 750 and the AMD Phenom II 955 have better price to performance values.

- Both motherboards are rather old designs now that the AMD 880G and 880GX chipsets have been released.

- Yes you have to OC the CPU in order to get DDR3 1600 speeds and above.

- That OCZ RAM is a tad overpriced at $110. You're better off with this cheaper RAM set:
$98 - G.Skill Ripjaw Series F3-12800CL9D-4GBRL 2 x 2GB DDR3 1600 RAM

- Yes you'll have to reformat the RAID 0 drives.

Personally I'd go with this combo deal:
$320 - Intel Core i5 750 CPU + Gigabyte GA-P55A-UD3 Intel P55 ATX Motherboard

The above setup will provide more performance than the Phenom II 965, especially considering your high resolution and the fact that many games are now becoming more CPU and multiple core dependent.

 

[lt_shiro]

no x4 965 is not good value for money... either go with a x4 955 or step up to x6 1055t. Both will hit about 4 GHz on air.

do you live GIGABYTE GA-890GPA-UD3H AM3 AMD 890GX SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 HDMI ATX AMD Motherboard $140 would be my suggestion board wise

timings don't matter with DDR3... DDR3 1600 is all you need.

its best you backup your data and rebuild the Raid set again.

 

[tiraides]

If you decide to stick with AMD, consider this setup instead:

$238 - AMD Phenom II X4 955 Black Edition & G.Skill Ripjaws Series F3-12800CL9D-4GBRL 2x2GB DDR3 1600 combo (free shipping on both)
$107 - Gigabyte GA-870A-UD3 (free shipping)

You get a decent platform for gaming and (moderate) overclocking for a bit less than the parts you're considering. There's virtually no noticeable difference in stock performance (and overclocking capability) between the two Black Edition processors, so get the cheaper X4 955. Simply put, G.Skill is good memory on par with Mushkin, Corsair, and other well-known RAM brands.

I threw in the Gigabyte board due to its nice featureset and its comparatively lower cost. It doesn't have two x8 PCI-E (x16) slots, but unless you plan on buying a second 5870 and using CrossFire immediately, chances are good that you won't miss it. (The second PCI-E x16 slot on the Gigabyte board runs at x4 bandwidth.) I personally believe that the MSI board is overpriced for your needs.

I'd be remissed if I didn't agree with Danny on the Intel setup being a better performing option, but it partially depends on your willingness to spend money. However, I wholeheartedly agree with him that you need to consider a better PSU. One good yet relatively inexpensive PSU is the Antec NEO ECO 620C.

 

[Trauts]

First off, thank you to Danny Bui, lt_shiro, and tiraides for your input! I really appreciate the help

However, I wholeheartedly agree with him that you need to consider a better PSU. One good yet relatively inexpensive PSU is the Antec NEO ECO 620C.

Would you mind explaining what's wrong with my PSU? I know they always over-rate them, but I was very careful when I picked this PSU with my old build. Here's the newegg page for it. I've never had a problem with it even when I was running 2 nvidia 8800GTs in SLI (no plans to do crossfire on the new computer).

Based on your guys feedback, the AMD 955/965 are definitely out.

The 6-core 1055T (which lt_shiro recommnended) is tempting, but I don't really have any immediate need for a 6-core. It's roughly the same price point, and nearly the same performance as the i5-750, though. If games take advantage of more cores in the future, it seems like that might be a good investment, but in the short term, it lags a bit behind the i5-750. Thoughts on that front? Benchmark 1 Benchmark Set 2 (i5 on left)

timings don't matter with DDR3... DDR3 1600 is all you need.

Is this true? Or is timing just *less* important with DDR3?

One last question... you all are recommending Gigabyte brand boards. I've been under the impression that Gigabyte had a somewhat negative reputation as far as product quality, but this is based on years and years ago. Have they turned things around?

 

[MacLeod]

AMD used to be king of the world under $300 especially considering you needed triple channel RAM and a big fancy motherboard with the i7 900's. Now that the i7 800's are out and especially the flat out bad ass i5 750, there is no reason to buy AMD if youre budget is anywhere near $200 for a CPU.

The i5 750 is one mean little proc. For $200, you get a CPU thatll smoke any Phenom and hang pretty close with its $300 i7 big brothers. Thats just too much power for the money right there.

Trust me, it hurts to say that as a die hard AMD fan but I too am considering the i5 route.

Here is a comparison from Anand between the $200 i5 750 and the $300 Phenom X6, AMD's flagship! The i5 beats the X6 in EVERY SINGLE GAME! In productivity, the X6 wins most of the benchmarks but look at the differences - theyre tiny. 1 second here, 3 seconds there. And thats with 2 less cores running at a slower clock! Yessir, the i5 is drool worthy.

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/146?vs=109

Check it out against the $300 i7 860. Hangs right on its heels for $100 less.

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/108?vs=109

 

[Trauts]

Here is a comparison from Anand between the $200 i5 750 and the $300 Phenom X6, AMD's flagship! The i5 beats the X6 in EVERY SINGLE GAME! In productivity, the X6 wins most of the benchmarks but look at the differences - theyre tiny. 1 second here, 3 seconds there. And thats with 2 less cores running at a slower clock! Yessir, the i5 is drool worthy.

Yeah, you're right. That settles the processor question.

To recap my other questions (nothing new here, but just to save on reading):
1) What's wrong with my power supply?
2) Do timings make a difference for DDR3 ram?
3) Has Gigabyte turned its reputation around?

 

[Shadowssong]

I'll keep it short and sweet.
1) OCZ psu's have been known to be, well, shitty (especially if they are old too), for lack of a better term haha.
2) Not really, I would go 1333 if you don't plan on overclocking and 1600 if you do.
3) Gigabyte has always been good... so yes they are still good!

Hope that helps

 

[E4g1e]

Yeah, you're right. That settles the processor question.

To recap my other questions (nothing new here, but just to save on reading):
1) What's wrong with my power supply?

You knew that OCZ has always "over-rated" its PSUs, but in the case of the GameXStream, it's really a pretty mediocre 500W PSU with a "700W" label on it. The trouble is not OCZ per se; it's the particular PSU platform that the GameXStream is based on: that troublesome FSP Epsilon. All of the other brands and models of PSUs that are based on that platform also suffer similar issues. And if you read the review of a GameXStream at the [H]ardOCP, you will notice that it was given a "failing" grade because it produces substantially out-of-spec output quality at anywhere close to the PSU's advertised wattage rating. (And yes, a PSU can kill computer components without itself dying or blowing up.)

And all PSUs will degrade in performance over time. The poorer ones will degrade much more in terms of output capability after just one or two years.

2) Do timings make a difference for DDR3 ram?

Very little difference between CL6 and CL9. In fact, neither Intel nor AMD officially supports CL6 timings at speeds above DDR3-1066.

3) Has Gigabyte turned its reputation around?

Its P35 motherboards signalled the beginning of its turnaround for the better. Its not-so-savory reputation came with its pre-Ultra Durable line of P965 motherboards, which often died sooner than expected.

In addition, I also recommend a new case as soon as you can afford one. This is because that Antec Nine Hundred is ill-suited to many of the newer motherboards that put the internal SATA ports at the front edge of the board (the SATA plugs fit, but in many cases the motherboard must be completely dismounted from the case just to connect an internal SATA drive because access to those ports is blocked by the permanently-welded drive bays) and that it cannot accommodate graphics cards longer than about 10 inches (some versions of the HD 58xx series and GTX 4xx series cards are longer than 10.5 inches). And it's not the airflow that's the problem; that Nine Hundred case is simply a bit cramped on the inside with only the most rudimentary of cable management features.

 

[Dangman]

Would you mind explaining what's wrong with my PSU? I know they always over-rate them, but I was very careful when I picked this PSU with my old build. Here's the newegg page for it. I've never had a problem with it even when I was running 2 nvidia 8800GTs in SLI (no plans to do crossfire on the new computer).

I'm sorry but can you explain to me how exactly you were careful in picking that PSU? If you knew they over-rated the PSU, why'd you buy an OCZ PSU in the first place? Oh and Newegg reviews don't count as proper PSU reviews. Otherwise, according to them, Apevia is a good PSU brand. Quite the contrary

In any case, E4g1e pointed out the main issue: The fact that particular OCZ PSU is based off the FSP Epsilon platform which has known out of spec ripple (voltage fluctuations) issues above 500W. You can see that in most reviews of FSP Epsilon platform PSUs:
OCZ GameXStream 700W <== First Review Where the Ripple was Found.
FSP BlueStorm II 500W PSU @ HardOCP
FSP BlueStorm II 500W PSU @ jonnyGuru
FSP Everest 700W PSU @ HardOCP
FSP Everest 700W PSU @ jonnyGuru
FSP Everest 900W PSU
FSP Everest 1010W PSU
OCZ GameXStream 1010W
Sigma SP-700 700W PSU
Super Talent Atomic Juice PS-700 700W PSU
Antec Basiq 500W PSU

 

[Trauts]

Sorry for the hiatus guys... started putting together plans for a new computer RIGHT before going on a 10 day trip.

You knew that OCZ has always "over-rated" its PSUs

I've been under the impression that ALL companies over-rate their PSUs. Not just OCZ.

The trouble is not OCZ per se; it's the particular PSU platform that the GameXStream is based on: that troublesome FSP Epsilon. All of the other brands and models of PSUs that are based on that platform also suffer similar issues. And if you read the review of a GameXStream at the [H]ardOCP, you will notice that it was given a "failing" grade because it produces substantially out-of-spec output quality at anywhere close to the PSU's advertised wattage rating. (And yes, a PSU can kill computer components without itself dying or blowing up.)

Hrmm, that's disturbing.

Very little difference between CL6 and CL9. In fact, neither Intel nor AMD officially supports CL6 timings at speeds above DDR3-1066.

Good to know. Thanks!

In addition, I also recommend a new case as soon as you can afford one. This is because that Antec Nine Hundred is ill-suited to many of the newer motherboards that put the internal SATA ports at the front edge of the board...

Hmm, okay. It'll be easier for me to sell my old mobo/cpu/ram if a case and PSU is included anyway.

A lot of the other cases I've found that I liked also have very similar looking insides (based on the pictures on newegg). The particular case I'm looking at right now is Cooler Master HAF 922. Thoughts on that case? (won't have the same problems w/ SATA/gfx cards, right?)

I'm sorry but can you explain to me how exactly you were careful in picking that PSU? If you knew they over-rated the PSU, why'd you buy an OCZ PSU in the first place? Oh and Newegg reviews don't count as proper PSU reviews. Otherwise, according to them, Apevia is a good PSU brand. Quite the contrary

Like I said before, I've been under the impression that all PSUs are "over-rated." Not just OCZ. As far as Newegg not counting as a "proper" PSU review, yes, that's a fair point, but since the vast majority of PSUs aren't professionally reviewed, I used a combination of the reviews on newegg and looking at the voltage on the different rails. Obviously I missed something doing that.

Here's my current build, based on your guys's advice:

1. Cooler Master HAF 922
2. Gigabyte GA-P55-USB3
3. Antec 620W PSU
4. Intel Core i5-750 2.66GHz
5. G.SKill Ripjaws DDR3-1600(x2)

plus pre-existing gear:

1. Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi (PCI)
2. Radeon HD 5850

Any further thoughts?

 

[Dangman]

I've been under the impression that ALL companies over-rate their PSUs. Not just OCZ.

Nope. Most good PSU companies will rarely over-rate their PSUs, i.e like Corsair.

A lot of the other cases I've found that I liked also have very similar looking insides (based on the pictures on newegg). The particular case I'm looking at right now is Cooler Master HAF 922. Thoughts on that case? (won't have the same problems w/ SATA/gfx cards, right?)

Pretty good choice. No issues as with the Antec 900-2.

Here's my current build, based on your guys's advice:

1. Cooler Master HAF 922
2. Gigabyte GA-P55-USB3
3. Antec 620W PSU
4. Intel Core i5-750 2.66GHz
5. G.SKill Ripjaws DDR3-1600(x2)

plus pre-existing gear:

1. Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi (PCI)
2. Radeon HD 5850

Any further thoughts?

Ditch that Antec PSU and get one set of that G.Skill RAM as part of this combo deal IF you can buy it before August 31st:
$170 - XFX P1-650X-CAG9 650W PSU + G.SKILL F3-12800CL9D-4GBRL Ripjaws Series 2 x 2GB DDR3 1600 RAM

You'll get a significantly better quality and modular PSU. Perfect for tight cramped cases like the Antec 900-2.

Again, if you can buy the parts before August 31st, get this CPU + mobo combo deal instead:
$320 - Intel Core i5 750 CPU + Gigabyte GA-P55A-UD3: Intel P55 ATX Motherboard Combo

You get a slightly better motherboard that's capable of better overclocking.

 

[Trauts]

You'll get a significantly better quality and modular PSU. Perfect for tight cramped cases like the Antec 900-2.

Well, modular is always a plus, and the price is pretty close. Thanks!

$320 - Intel Core i5 750 CPU + Gigabyte GA-P55A-UD3: Intel P55 ATX Motherboard Combo

You get a slightly better motherboard that's capable of better overclocking.

The only real difference I can see between the two is that the one you linked (which I was formerly thinking of getting) has SATA 6gb/s support. However, if you enable that (or USB3.0), you cut your graphics card bandwidth from 16x to 8x. The USB3.0 limitation is true on both boards.

Is there something else different between them that I am missing? (BIOS features, etc)

Edit: Actually, the price difference when you take into account the rebate is only $5 lol, so no reason *not* to go with it.

 

[Dangman]

Edit: Actually, the price difference when you take into account the rebate is only $5 lol, so no reason *not* to go with it.

Actually if you take into account the combo deal, it's still only $5 more.

 

[E4g1e]

The only real difference I can see between the two is that the one you linked (which I was formerly thinking of getting) has SATA 6gb/s support. However, if you enable that (or USB3.0), you cut your graphics card bandwidth from 16x to 8x. The USB3.0 limitation is true on both boards.

That's true - if the SATA 6 Gbps and USB 3.0 controllers are set at their Turbo modes. If on the other hand those two controllers are set at their "Compatible" modes, they will use four PCI-e x1 lanes off of the P55 chipset's PCH and keep the graphics card slot at its full x16 bandwidth.

On the other hand, those motherboards that use PLX bridge chips to add the support for those two technologies have limitations of their own: In this case, all of the PCI-e x1 lanes are used up if the bridge chip is enabled. This means that if either SATA 6Gbps or USB 3.0 is enabled on those particular boards, there will be absolutely no PCI-e 1.x lanes available whatsoever to add internal expansion cards or even enable the onboard LAN.

 

[Trauts]

I've got one last question (hopefully)...

I'm planning on outfitting this computer with 8GB of ram. There are two package deals on Newegg that will leave me this way. (I'm buying the case elsewhere)

Breaks down like this:

I can get 4x2GB (plus PSU, mobo, CPU) for $564.95. (Combo 1 and Combo 2 and CPU)
or also 2x4GB (plus PSU, mobo, CPU) for $619.96 (Combo 1 and Combo 2)

The difference is $55.

I barely need 4GB now, and I can't imagine 16GB being needed anytime soon. Is there any reason to jump on the slightly-more-expensive bandwagon and get the 2 sticks vs the 4? They're essentially the exact same RAM specs (same brand and product line, timings, etc)

The only advantage I see is the prospect of buying another 2x4GB sticks in a few years... but that seems fairly pointless...

 

[Dangman]

You''ve pretty much answered your own question: Don't spend the extra $55.