Need upgrade advice

T

treepop

Weaksauce
Joined
Jan 23, 2007
Messages
91
Hey guys...I am looking to upgrade the rig in my sig. My budget is $250. I am looking at amd as the best bang for the buck (but could be wrong) I am thinking a phenom II x3 or x4. And a motherboard ( I do NOT need Xfire, also a some incite on the chipsets would be great :) ). If DDR3 is a must, then that would also need to fit into the budget.

Thanks so much,
treepop

*****EDIT*******
What are your thoughts about this:

GIGABYTE GA-MA790XT-UD4P AM3 DDR3 AMD 790X
Crucial 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (Do I really need DDR3???)
AMD Phenom II X2 545 Callisto 3.0GHz

I know the multi is locked on the Proc...but generally I leave that alone anyway (I just adjust the FSB). Which I believe is the only difference between the Black Edition and the non BE
The mobo I THINK! is good????
I assume the ram will hold out longer then the stock cooling?

I don't know what a good overclock is on this proc. I am thinking 3.5? on stock cooling. I also read you can unlock all 4 cores quite easily.

any info/suggestions would be great :)
 
Last edited:
Well no you don't need DDR3, if you have memory already. I would get a x4 945 95w and 785g board for the $250.

3.8-4.1 GHz is target overclock with good hsf.
 
go with the phenom II x3 720.. and no you do not need DDR3.. its actually quite useless on the phenom II's.. the only added benefit with ddr3 is the extra bandwidth..

if you plan to use the system for a long time say 2-3 years before upgrading it again.. go with one of these boards

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128395
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813138105
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131362

if you plan to use it as an upgrade path.. say you want to go quad later on down the road.. then go with one of these...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128387
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813138130
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131368


as far as overclocking.. 3.5ghz on the 720 or higher has been about the norm for stock cooling.. the x2 550 can do almost 4ghz on stock cooling.. but a 720 @ 3.5ghz is still faster then the 550..

you want a black edition processor.. so much easier to overclock with.. the only reason you would need to use the FSB to overclock on a black edition processor is to push the NB clock higher.. most phenom II's have no problems doing 2.4ghz on the NB.. but at the same time the NB clock causes the temps to increase drastically.. especially if you are increasing the cpu voltage to overclock the processor.. cpu and nb voltages are tied together..
 
FSB overclocking for P2 is to keep Cool 'n' quiet enable as with most bios, when you change the multi. It is disable by default.
 
lt_shiro said:
FSB overclocking for P2 is to keep Cool 'n' quiet enable as with most bios, when you change the multi. It is disable by default.
Click to expand...


gotcha.. ive yet to ever use cool 'n quiet.. have always disabled it on every amd motherboard ive used :p lol
 
thank you guys for all of the stellar advice! It's especially good to know I don' t need DDR3 at all.

I have a few questions:
1.) Do I need an x4 or x3? I was looking at anandtech's beta bench and it looks like the x2 was hanging very close to the x3 and x4. I noticed there was a trend in that mhz had a larger impact then cores. Am I mistaken? I only care about gaming performance.

2.)I saw a lot of suggestions for the 785g motherboard. Will this net me greater results (performance/overclocks) then a 790x? The prices were neck and neck. With the money saved from not needing ram, would the extra money invested in a 790x increase my: 1: performance stock 2: overclock ability.

Thanks so much :)
 
answer to the second question, 790x doesn't increase performance at stock and has barely any advantages over 785g.

overclocking depends on the southbridge and number of phases on the board/ or cooling of said power phases.
 
lt_shiro said:
answer to the second question, 790x doesn't increase performance at stock and has barely any advantages over 785g.

overclocking depends on the southbridge and number of phases on the board/ or cooling of said power phases.
Click to expand...

Thats good to know...the 785g seems like a real winner at $89.99 for the:
GIGABYTE GA-MA785G-UD3H

as for the processor. Where is a good place to compare gaming performance of an x2 to an x3 to an x4 at the same ghz.

Also...if I could get the x2 to unlock all 4 cores, even at an underclock of 3ghz, thats still one heck of a proc for the $ no?

***EDIT***
Another thought. In gaming how would an x2 x3 x4 compare to the proc/mobo in my sig (currently running at 333x8 ~2.7gz) the mobo only supports pci-x 1.0.

are we talking an increase of 10% 20% 30% etc...??
 
Last edited:
I would guess about 25-35% depending on the game.

When I moved from my e6400 (overclock to same 2.7 GHz) to 7750 kuma in far cry 2. My fps when from 41 to 56.
 
I started thinking about it....I am thinking I might later down the road want to add another HD4870 1gig graphics card in crossfire.

What mobo should I now be looking at?
 
I am in the same boat as you, although I have a bit more money to spend. I decided against a quad, because from what I have been reading they don't provide much added benefit to gaming right now.
So I decided on this board http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131381
It gives me the option of going quad and DD3 down the road. It also supports XFire. So I like the fact that I can "grow" into this board.
And I selected this cpu http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103680
It packs a mighty punch for a dual core AMD. It's 45nm and only 80watts. So it will stay cool. $181 total not bad ehh?
 
This might be to good to pass up:
AMD Phenom II X2 545
GIGABYTE GA-MA785GM-US2H AM3/AM2+/AM2 AMD 785G

Both for $139.98/ no tax/free shipping on newegg.com

Would this smoke my current rig?
What are the odds of getting all 4 cores unlocked?
 
treepop said:
This might be to good to pass up:
AMD Phenom II X2 545
GIGABYTE GA-MA785GM-US2H AM3/AM2+/AM2 AMD 785G

Both for $139.98/ no tax/free shipping on newegg.com

Would this smoke my current rig?
What are the odds of getting all 4 cores unlocked?
Click to expand...
See my above post the 550 is $102 at newegg.
 
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dkev said:
I am in the same boat as you, although I have a bit more money to spend. I decided against a quad, because from what I have been reading they don't provide much added benefit to gaming right now.
So I decided on this board http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131381
It gives me the option of going quad and DD3 down the road. It also supports XFire. So I like the fact that I can "grow" into this board.
And I selected this cpu http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103680
It packs a mighty punch for a dual core AMD. It's 45nm and only 80watts. So it will stay cool. $181 total not bad ehh?
Click to expand...

I don't see where that mobo can do ddr3 as well....that would be rad though! are you 100% sure?
 
treepop said:
1.) Do I need an x4 or x3? I was looking at anandtech's beta bench and it looks like the x2 was hanging very close to the x3 and x4. I noticed there was a trend in that mhz had a larger impact then cores. Am I mistaken? I only care about gaming performance.
Click to expand...
True of current games. However, many current games and future games are seeing a performance increase with additional cores. In addition, multiple cores will allow you to have more apps running in the background while gaming.
treepop said:
I started thinking about it....I am thinking I might later down the road want to add another HD4870 1gig graphics card in crossfire.
Click to expand...
Not a good idea considering you have a small monitor. For a CF setup to be cost effective, a 24" monitor is a good idea.

treepop said:
Both for $139.98/ no tax/free shipping on newegg.com

Would this smoke my current rig?
What are the odds of getting all 4 cores unlocked?
Click to expand...
Not smoke but decent enough performance increase.
The odd is getting pretty low now.

dkev said:
Nope my bad. I guess you're not gonna find a ddr 3 board that cheap. ;)
Click to expand...

Actually:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130228
 
Danny Bui said:
True of current games. However, many current games and future games are seeing a performance increase with additional cores. In addition, multiple cores will allow you to have more apps running in the background while gaming.

Not a good idea considering you have a small monitor. For a CF setup to be cost effective, a 24" monitor is a good idea.


Not smoke but decent enough performance increase.
The odd is getting pretty low now.
Click to expand...

You rock. Thanks for the thorough response. For $140 I would gain pci-x 2.0 which I think is ~ 1-2%+ performance. And I am hoping for at least 3.5ghz. So maybe 20% in cpu performance?

Whats the difference between my e4200 and an e8600? is it just mhz and fsb? Because I am running mine at 333x8 which gets me 2.7ghz and 1333fsb. If I just got some better cooling I am sure I could hit 3.2ghz easy. Would I then be in the same realm as an e8600 or is there some technology jump that I am missing?

Thanks
 
Danny Bui said:
True of current games. However, many current games and future games are seeing a performance increase with additional cores. In addition, multiple cores will allow you to have more apps running in the background while gaming.

Not a good idea considering you have a small monitor. For a CF setup to be cost effective, a 24" monitor is a good idea.


Not smoke but decent enough performance increase.
The odd is getting pretty low now.



Actually:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130228
Click to expand...

Nice board. To bad it doesn't have 2 pci express. Which is what I was kinda looking for. MSI decent? Never played with the brand before.
 
Danny Bui said:
True of current games. However, many current games and future games are seeing a performance increase with additional cores. In addition, multiple cores will allow you to have more apps running in the background while gaming.

Not a good idea considering you have a small monitor. For a CF setup to be cost effective, a 24" monitor is a good idea.


Not smoke but decent enough performance increase.
The odd is getting pretty low now.



Actually:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130228
Click to expand...

I was actually looking at that mobo(sweet frys deal):
http://www.frys-electronics-ads.com...m-II-X3-710-Processor-MSI-770-C45-Motherboard
 
dkev said:
Nice board. To bad it doesn't have 2 pci express. Which is what I was kinda looking for. MSI decent? Never played with the brand before.
Click to expand...

I like MSI a lot! Solid mobo's for sure....decent overclockers and generally well priced :).....I used to have (let me see if I can get this right) a k8n neo or something...for my altholon xp 1800+ (think I hit like 2.5ghz on that mobo)
 
treepop said:
I like MSI a lot! Solid mobo's for sure....decent overclockers and generally well priced :).....I used to have (let me see if I can get this right) a k8n neo or something...for my altholon xp 1800+ (think I hit like 2.5ghz on that mobo)
Click to expand...
I've always had good luck with Asus boards. Although my current one is a Gigabbyte, and it's been trouble free. The only boards I ever had trouble with were Abits with Via chipsets. Never could get one up and running for what ever reason.
 
treepop said:
Whats the difference between my e4200 and an e8600? is it just mhz and fsb? Because I am running mine at 333x8 which gets me 2.7ghz and 1333fsb. If I just got some better cooling I am sure I could hit 3.2ghz easy. Would I then be in the same realm as an e8600 or is there some technology jump that I am missing?
Click to expand...

The E4200 doesn't exist. Did you mean E6420?

Main difference is FSB, Clock speed and core design. The E8600 is based on the Penryn core which is faster than the Allendale core of the E6420. Assuming all things are equal, the Penryn core would be clock for clock 10% faster than the Allendale core. However the E8600 has an extra 2MB L2 cache compared to the E6420 which offers another 2-5% give or take 1% extra performance. So assuming that you get the E6420 to 3.2Ghz, it would only be 10 to 15% slower than a stock E8600, E8500 or E8400. But then you can always OC the E8400, E8500 or E8600 to 3.6Ghz or so.

dkev said:
Nice board. To bad it doesn't have 2 pci express. Which is what I was kinda looking for. MSI decent? Never played with the brand before.
Click to expand...
MSI is a good brand. Not as good as Gigabbyte or Asus but still pretty good.
treepop said:
I as actually looking at that mobo(sweet frys deal):
http://www.frys-electronics-ads.com...m-II-X3-710-Processor-MSI-770-C45-Motherboard
Click to expand...

Yeah was about to get that for my friend's build yesterday. Only problem was that my local Fry's only had used versions of those mobos left. So didn't get in on it (I have a policy against used motherboards from non-forum members). But you might have better luck with your Fry's.
 
Danny Bui said:
The E4200 doesn't exist. Did you mean E6420?

Main difference is FSB, Clock speed and core design. The E8600 is based on the Penryn core which is faster than the Allendale core of the E6420. Assuming all things are equal, the Penryn core would be clock for clock 10% faster than the Allendale core. However the E8600 has an extra 2MB L2 cache compared to the E6420 which offers another 2-5% give or take 1% extra performance. So assuming that you get the E6420 to 3.2Ghz, it would only be 10 to 15% slower than a stock E8600, E8500 or E8400. But then you can always OC the E8400, E8500 or E8600 to 3.6Ghz or so.


MSI is a good brand. Not as good as Gigabbyte or Asus but still pretty good.


Yeah was about to get that for my friend's build yesterday. Only problem was that my local Fry's only had used versions of those mobos left. So didn't get in on it (I have a policy against used motherboards from non-forum members). But you might have better luck with your Fry's.
Click to expand...

I believe the e6420 is a conroe...does that make a difference
 
treepop said:
... Because I am running mine at 333x8 which gets me 2.7ghz and 1333fsb. If I just got some better cooling I am sure I could hit 3.2ghz easy. Would I then be in the same realm as an e8600 or is there some technology jump that I am missing?
Click to expand...

Danny Bui said:
... So assuming that you get the E6420 to 3.2Ghz, it would only be 10 to 15% slower than a stock E8600, E8500 or E8400. But then you can always OC the E8400, E8500 or E8600 to 3.6Ghz or so.
Click to expand...

The E8400/8500/8600 should reach higher than 3.6Ghz easily, btw, probably around 4Ghz.

The E6420 should definitely reach 3.2Ghz easily as well.

The rig in your sig doesn't seem like its in dire need of an upgrade, just an overclock, IMO. ;)


Danny Bui said:
... Yeah was about to get that for my friend's build yesterday. Only problem was that my local Fry's only had used versions of those mobos left. So didn't get in on it (I have a policy against used motherboards from non-forum members). But you might have better luck with your Fry's.
Click to expand...

Heh, a few weeks ago I was going to sell one of those open box mobos I got last Jan. since I never ended up using it. It was even sealed with those damn plastic straps. I decided to open it and make sure it was at least functional, because we all know how notorious Fry's is for that crap. Well, turns out it looks as if I was sold the display model, with a SATA port broken off, some DIMM locks missing, no anti-static bag, etc, though it did come with new cables and i/o plate, lol. Problem is, I bought it back in Jan. :( To be honest, this is the first time this has happened, out of at least 50+ mobos I've bought from Fry's over the years, lol. I mean, I've gotten dead open box parts and stuff, but straight up abused parts had yet to happen until this one, lol.
 
enginurd said:
Heh, a few weeks ago I was going to sell one of those open box mobos I got last Jan. since I never ended up using it. It was even sealed with those damn plastic straps. I decided to open it and make sure it was at least functional, because we all know how notorious Fry's is for that crap. Well, turns out it looks as if I was sold the display model, with a SATA port broken off, some DIMM locks missing, no anti-static bag, etc, though it did come with new cables and i/o plate, lol. Problem is, I bought it back in Jan. :( To be honest, this is the first time this has happened, out of at least 50+ mobos I've bought from Fry's over the years, lol. I mean, I've gotten dead open box parts and stuff, but straight up abused parts had yet to happen until this one, lol.
Click to expand...

Damn, that sucks. Though 1 out of 50+ isn't that bad. Yeah, Fry's is a bit notorious for that crap. I remember a few months ago that my friend bought a used Antec EA430 from Fry's for cheap. Turns out, some asshole had swapped a Raidmax PSU into that Antec EA430 package. Fry's did give my friend a new Antec EA430 PSU for the price of that used PSU but that was still a bitch.

Anyway, since that build was for my friend, I wasn't gonna take any chances with the used motherboard.
 
enginurd said:
The E8400/8500/8600 should reach higher than 3.6Ghz easily, btw, probably around 4Ghz.

The E6420 should definitely reach 3.2Ghz easily as well.

The rig in your sig doesn't seem like its in dire need of an upgrade, just an overclock, IMO. ;)




Heh, a few weeks ago I was going to sell one of those open box mobos I got last Jan. since I never ended up using it. It was even sealed with those damn plastic straps. I decided to open it and make sure it was at least functional, because we all know how notorious Fry's is for that crap. Well, turns out it looks as if I was sold the display model, with a SATA port broken off, some DIMM locks missing, no anti-static bag, etc, though it did come with new cables and i/o plate, lol. Problem is, I bought it back in Jan. :( To be honest, this is the first time this has happened, out of at least 50+ mobos I've bought from Fry's over the years, lol. I mean, I've gotten dead open box parts and stuff, but straight up abused parts had yet to happen until this one, lol.
Click to expand...

well here is the rub. I am trying to play champions online (in the beta) and it runs HORRID. Everyone kept saying theirs runs great and it must be my measly cpu. I thought to myself....man this cpu is a bit rusty but not THAT old....

Long story short I want to play 1920x1080 (bro's monitor) at max everything. Right now it sits at around 20fps with mild settings....but once I start pumping up that lighting it drops to 6 or lower in some parts!
 
treepop said:
well here is the rub. I am trying to play champions online (in the beta) and it runs HORRID. Everyone kept saying theirs runs great and it must be my measly cpu. I thought to myself....man this cpu is a bit rusty but not THAT old....

Long story short I want to play 1920x1080 (bro's monitor) at max everything. Right now it sits at around 20fps with mild settings....but once I start pumping up that lighting it drops to 6 or lower in some parts!
Click to expand...

That's a GPU problem, not a CPU problem. At 1920x1080, even the HD4870 1GB might struggle with games at that res. In addition, the game is a beta so it might be the game itself not your hardware.
 
yes... especially at that res. I'd say pickup a 2nd HD4870 for some CF action, but then you'd need a new board, too. :( So you can sell your current HD4870 and pickup an HD4870X2. However, new GPUs are coming, so you must wait for those. :cool:
 
enginurd said:
yes... especially at that res. I'd say pickup a 2nd HD4870 for some CF action, but then you'd need a new board, too. :( So you can sell your current HD4870 and pickup an HD4870X2. However, new GPUs are coming, so you must wait for those. :cool:
Click to expand...

I bought mine saying I felt strongly about getting an HD4850x2 for around the same cost(I think it was $50 more) growl.....I knew I shoulda listened to my gut :(
 
treepop said:
I bought mine saying I felt strongly about getting an HD4850x2 for around the same cost(I think it was $50 more) growl.....I knew I shoulda listened to my gut :(
Click to expand...

The HD4850X2 may not have been that good of a choice anyway. Not many games scale well with multiple GPUs and often times you do have to wait for a driver to show up for even small scaling to occur with multiple GPUs.

So if Champions Online didn't scale well with multiple GPUs, you would have been getting lower FPS than you would with the HD4870 1GB.
 
Danny Bui said:
The HD4850X2 may not have been that good of a choice anyway. Not many games scale well with multiple GPUs and often times you do have to wait for a driver to show up for even small scaling to occur with multiple GPUs.

So if Champions Online didn't scale well with multiple GPUs, you would have been getting lower FPS than you would with the HD4870 1GB.
Click to expand...

I am starting to think it's the game...b/c even if I lower the resolution...change AA settings....I get very mild increases....it is beta....so maybe it's just that....

Maybe I will switch to windows XP so I have more driver options....

*back to the topic at hand*
So you guys are saying....if I can overclock my proc to say...3.5ghz...I should be running pretty close to the current gen setups?
 
Danny Bui said:
Yes.
Click to expand...

Thanks.....I am at 3.2...I just read an old article on my motherboard saying to up the VTT to max and the NB to 1.45. Computer running at 400x8 without blinking an eye.

Thanks for all the info guys....I thought I wasn't to far behind the curve...you guys helped solidify my thoughts into substance. :)
 
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