Need to confirm Dell/HP-like Vista-ready rig

[tiraides]

I'm getting ready to build a computer for my aunt. (Long story short: I have quite a few spare parts, and my mom asked me to build my aunt a "new" budget rig.) My aunt is pretty much your (stereo)typical "basic user," and the computer is being designed for web browsing, Office, viewing movies, listening to music, and CD/DVD burning. I went the microATX route because she can't (physically) handle a large computer... I tried using the HP Pavilion Slimline series as the basis for this computer, but I have some concerns with Vista (this will be the first time that I used the OS) and with the power/graphics requirements that I'll need to run it properly. I'm also using a X2 3800+ and some RAM that I've had before.

I've made my order on Monday, and I'll have all the parts that I need by this weekend. The rig that I'm building consists of:

Case: Foxconn TLM436-CN300C-01 MicroATX Mini Tower (I'm removing the stock PSU)
PSU: FSP Group (Fortron Source) 300 watt ATX
Motherboard: BIOSTAR GeForce 6100-M9 (microATX/Socket 939)
CPU: AMD X2 3800+ (Socket 939; reusing it)
RAM: Corsair ValueSelect 1GB PC3200 DDR kit (2x512MB; reusing it)
HDD: Maxtor Basic 320GB SATA300 (made by Seagate)
Optical Drive: LG GSA-H22L 18X DVD±RW drive with LightScribe
Graphics (if needed): GeForce 8500/8600-series (goal is under $150)
Onboard sound (I've heard how "nice" Vista is with sound cards)
Keyboard/Mouse set: Microsoft Wireless Optical Desktop 3000
(My mom is handling the monitor and speakers.)

Software (in case anyone's curious)
Microsoft Vista Home Premium (32-bit)
Microsoft Office 2007 Standard
(Haven't figured out the AV yet... no NOD32 because that "may confuse her"... )
Vista Firewall (unless someone has a better suggestion...)
Webroot Spy Sweeper and Window Washer (got it on sale)
(Other freeware security software)
(I also have copies of Nero 7 Ultra and Easy Media Creator 9 Suite available, if needed)

I haven't made a decision yet as to whether or not I'll add a stand-alone graphics card -- the motherboard comes with onboard video, but I'm still researching how well Vista (specifically, Aero) handles Nvidia's onboard graphics configurations. (She doesn't game, so I should be safe in that regard.) As for RAM, I have a 2x1GB kit available if I really need it -- I've been through the OS Forum, and the consensus seems to be, "1GB will work, but if you can, get 2GB" -- but it's of the Kingston HyperX variety, and this is supposed to be a "budget" rig.

Why Vista? This is essentially going to be a new computer (despite some recycled parts), and I decided to gravitate towards Vista in order to get a head-start on the (eventual) push to it. I bought the Home Premium version more for its Media Center capabilities (specifically, DVD/CD burning and built-in DVD player) than for the Aero interface (though it would be a nice bonus if the onboard graphics can handle it.)

The questions that I would like to have answered are (and keep in mind that this is a budget rig for a basic user)...

• Can I use onboard graphics (GeForce 6100) for Vista/Aero (without causing significant system slowdown and/or resource drain)?
• Can I use 1GB of RAM or should I use 2GB?
• Can I get away with using the Media Center software in Vista or should I use multimedia software such as Nero or Easy Media Creator? (I know that this is General Hardware, but I might as well get this question answered with the others.)
• Can I get away with using a smaller (e.g. SFF desktop) case? (I'm assuming that my aunt won't take the time to go inside and clean it out... and the heat output of all the parts -- which will be left stock -- is a constant concern of mine.)
• Is there anything else that I've missed?

 

[Vengance_01]

Dude, get a dell. Go to the outlet center. You can get a nice cheap Dimension E521 with a X2 3600 Brisbane Core, 1GB ram, 250GB SATA II HD, silent chassis, all for around 300-320$. This also will come with Vista Home Premium. For low end builds you can't beat Dell. Oh yea the unit also has standard 1 year warrenty with on site service.

 

[tiraides]

Dude, everything's already been purchased. I'm just trying to make sure that if I send the rig to my aunt as-is, she won't send it back because nothing runs properly on it.

 

[RoBo]

Yeh it will run.

But I would upgrade to 2gb..
I would also but a very cheap Aero video card in there.
Unless you have a dirty aunt , I don't think the computer will get too hot.

 

[tiraides]

The case and motherboard came in yesterday afternoon. I'm going to assemble everything over the weekend and see how well the computer runs with onboard video and 1GB of RAM. (I have the 2GB RAM ready, just in case, and I can get a cheap 8500GT for about $100 at a nearby B&M.) I'm going to stick with the Foxconn case for now (but swap out the stock PSU for the FSP Group PSU).

Can anyone answer the rest of my questions?

 

[Dangman]

Ahh, you're going to hurt Robo's feelings!

[*]Can I use onboard graphics (GeForce 6100) for Vista/Aero (without causing significant system slowdown and/or resource drain)?

I believe so but it will take 128MB of RAM away from that 1GB of RAM you have now. If you want a cheap Aero ready card, ATI released their X1050 and X1550 line of cards specifically to allow people to cheaply upgrade to an Aero ready card. And they're usually under $50 or so.

[*]Can I use 1GB of RAM or should I use 2GB?

I say go for 2GB of RAM. Vista is somewhat resource intensive and that onboard graphics is already taking 128MB of RAM already.

[*]Can I get away with using the Media Center software in Vista or should I use multimedia software such as Nero or Easy Media Creator? (I know that this is General Hardware, but I might as well get this question answered with the others.)

Wait what do you want to do exactly with the media center software? do you want burn CDs and DVDs or just watch videos?

[*]Can I get away with using a smaller (e.g. SFF desktop) case? (I'm assuming that my aunt won't take the time to go inside and clean it out... and the heat output of all the parts -- which will be left stock -- is a constant concern of mine.)

SFF cases offer great cooling these days. As long as you have a decent amount of airflow, there shouldn't be any real problems. However I'm not too sure about the case you chose. Dunno if that 90MM is enough to exhaust all of the hot air in the system.

 

[tiraides]

Ahh, you're going to hurt Robo's feelings!

Hey, I got nothing but love for RoBo -- at least he answered some of my questions! (Thanks for answering the rest, BTW.)

I believe so but it will take 128MB of RAM away from that 1GB of RAM you have now. If you want a cheap Aero ready card, ATI released their X1050 and X1550 line of cards specifically to allow people to cheaply upgrade to an Aero ready card. And they're usually under $50 or so.

I bought the motherboard with onboard graphics in mind, since (while "researching") I saw a few computers with Vista Home Premium using the GeForce 6150 onboard graphics. I'm still a bit concerned power-wise, but I'll try to run everything on onboard video for now. (I have a PCIe card that I could use in a pinch, as a temporary stopgap.)

I say go for 2GB of RAM. Vista is somewhat resource intensive and that onboard graphics is already taking 128MB of RAM already.

That was my guess as well. Though, to be honest, I'd rather have the HyperX go to someone who would use them to their fullest... (and no, that doesn't mean that I'm willing to give them away...).

Wait what do you want to do exactly with the media center software? do you want burn CDs and DVDs or just watch videos?

Both; I purchased Vista Home Premium with that in mind. Since I really haven't used it much (besides trying out the in-store demos), I can't tell how the performance is compared to the Nero/Roxio multimedia suites.

SFF cases offer great cooling these days. As long as you have a decent amount of airflow, there shouldn't be any real problems. However I'm not too sure about the case you chose. Dunno if that 90MM is enough to exhaust all of the hot air in the system.

I checked the pictures of the Foxconn case and it has two 90mm fan slots (one of them is hidden by the HDD bays). Because my aunt can't handle large cases, I thought about purchasing a SFF desktop case like this one. Since I kind of thought that I needed a standalone card to run Vista to its fullest (graphically), I was concerned about the possible power and cooling limitations of that case. If you have any ideas on a better case (similar to the one that I linked to), feel free to suggest one.

 

[Dangman]

Well after a quick egg hunt, can't find any other micro-atx case that's better than that fox conn you chose. But when you assemble it all together, look at CPU temps and see whether or not that case provides sufficient cooling.

As for Vista Media Center, dunno if you can burn CDs or DVDs with it. Truth be told, I haven't used Vista Media Center myself because the only Vista OS I've used so far is the Business version.

Well you can always try to sell the HyperX Ram here on the forums and use that cash to buy used DDR Ram from the forums here. This way you get cheap DDR RAM as well sell that HyperX Ram to someone who might use it.

Anyway good luck with Vista!

 

[tiraides]

A couple of updates....

I opened up the Foxconn case and took off the front end -- which, based on the design, I had to in order to add a front fan to it -- and found a rather nice surprise:



The front of the case can support up to a 120mm fan, which answers my (and Danny Bui's) questions on its cooling capabilities. (The back of the case has a slot for either an 80mm or a 92mm fan, and it even has one of the now-seems-to-be-standard side fan "vents" that I may get rid of -- just because I really don't like them.) So all I have to do now is replace the stock (80mm) rear fan and PSU -- oh wait, I did -- and find a new 120mm fan as a last-minute replacement (I have to have this ready-to-go by the end of the month...).

I also broke down and bought a couple of last-minute parts this past week. I got two 1GB sticks of Kingston ValueRAM (PC3200) on sale (for around the same cost after taxes) last week at a local Mom-and-Pop store, but I later wasted the savings by paying the "idiot tax" on a BFG GeForce 8500GT from Best Buy yesterday (EDIT: ... that I've since returned, since I now have to wait for a couple of vital parts. OEM packaging FTW! ). I'll be trying everything out over the next few days -- I still have one more question to answer regarding Vista's multimedia capabilities (and whether or not I'll need to purchase Nero/Roxio) -- and I'll probably post pictures of the final "product" before I ship everything out.

 

[Dangman]

Here's a cheap 120MM fan thats also pretty quiet:
120mm Yate Loon D12SL-12 Case Fan - $3.50

Nice work so far. Well except for that business with buying a video card from best buy.

 

[tiraides]

I just found out that I was missing the motherboard's I/O shield and southbridge heatsink. I called Biostar (USA)'s customer service about the issue, and I later received an e-mail saying that they'll send me an I/O shield for free, but that the southbridge doesn't need a heatsink, hence it came without one. (BS -- what's a good aftermarket passive north-/southbridge heatsink I could use?)

Thanks (again) for the suggestion on the Yate Loon, Danny. I was thinking of paring it with one of the Scythe 100mm case fans that have the 92mm mounting holes... yea or nay?

 

[tiraides]

I was reading some reviews on NewEgg (hey, I was bored...) and found a few reviews that said the motherboard that I chose doesn't work with Vista. I checked out both the US and Taiwan versions of the Biostar website (and downloaded all of their current drivers and BIOS files from both sites), but I haven't found anything confirming whether or not I could use Vista. I've been able to find Vista drivers for the onboard sound, onboard video, and the nForce drivers. The big question now is whether the BIOS (and, I guess, the other drivers) will accept Vista.

I guess I'll try installing Vista this week and then try to find the remaining drivers that I'm missing (that I may need to upgrade so that they work in Vista).

Has anyone here heard of any stories about the Biostar GeForce 6100-M9 motherboard having any problems -- or not working at all -- with Vista?

 

[Dangman]

Haven't heard any. Sorry man.

As for the case fans, go for it. Dunno however if a 100mm fan will mount on a 92mm fan mounting holes.

 

[engiNURD]

The BIOS has nothing to do with Vista support. Vista just needs chipset drivers to communicate with the board. So, unless Biostar did something weird with that board, it should work with Vista just fine.

 

[tiraides]

As for the case fans, go for it. Dunno however if a 100mm fan will mount on a 92mm fan mounting holes.

The Scythe fan I mentioned had holes for both 100mm fan slots and 92mm fan slots. Unless someone here has experience with those fans, I guess I'll have to get one myself to be sure.

The BIOS has nothing to do with Vista support. Vista just needs chipset drivers to communicate with the board. So, unless Biostar did something weird with that board, it should work with Vista just fine.

That was my assumption -- I was able to find the video and chipset drivers from Nvidia, and Realtek (maker of the AC'97 onboard sound drivers that the motherboard uses) released a "universal" Vista driver.

 

[tiraides]

I just purchased the last parts needed for the build...

GIGABYTE GeForce 8400GS 256MB video card (from NewEgg)
Scythe S-FLEX SFF21E 120mm fan (from FrozenCPU)
Scythe "KAZE-JYU" 100mm fan (from FrozenCPU)
Microcool Chipsink passive southbridge heatsink (from FrozenCPU)

Hopefully everything will be ready to go by this weekend (now that I'm officially running late with this project...).

 

[Khanmots]

(Haven't figured out the AV yet... no NOD32 because that "may confuse her"... )

Go with Avast. It's free for home use, and it offers great options for installing on a relatives system (including email alerts). It's what I've got my grandma setup with... and lucky me my parents are comp literate, so I've got the email alerts going to them

 

[tiraides]

Yeah, it's been a while... but it's ready to go, and I'm mailing it off tomorrow.

I was given more time to finish it once I was told that my aunt wanted the rig to be ready out-of-the-box... and I was able to get the rest of the hardware and software. The final specs for this rig are....

Hardware

• Foxconn TLM436-CN300C-01 MicroATX Mini Tower case
• Scythe S-FLEX SFF21E 120mm case fan
• Scythe "KAZE-JYU" 100mm case fan
• FSP Group (Fortron Source) 300 watt ATX power supply
• Biostar GeForce 6100-M9 (microATX/Socket 939) motherboard
• AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+ (Socket 939/dual core) processor
• (2 sticks) Kingston ValueRAM 1GB PC3200 DDR400 DDR-SDRAM
• Maxtor Basic 320GB SATA300 hard drive
• LG GSA-H22L 18X IDE DVD±RW drive with LightScribe
• Gigabyte GeForce 8400GS PCI Express x16 graphics card
• Onboard sound (from motherboard)
• USRobotics 5699B V.92 56Kbps faxmodem PCI card
• Westinghouse L1975NW 19 inch widescreen monitor
• Microsoft Wireless Optical Desktop 3000 keyboard/mouse set
• Altec Lansing BX1120 2.0 speakers

Software

• Microsoft Vista Home Premium (32-bit, retail, full version)
• Microsoft Office 2007 Standard Edition
• Kaspersky Internet Security 6.0 (antivirus/firewall/antispam/antispyware, w/ free upgrade to version 7.0)
• Acronis True Image 10 Home
• Webroot Spy Sweeper/Window Washer bundle (OEM version)
• (Online) upgrade to Spy Sweeper with AntiVirus
• Roxio Easy Media Creator 9 Suite
• Quicken 2008 Starter Edition
• LightScribe disc burning tools/software (for the DVD burner)
• Various freeware (FireFox 2, Picasa, QuickTime, etc.)

Overall, I spent around $1300 over the whole project, with a hardware/software price ratio of 55:45. There are a few things that I should mention about this project:

• For some strange reason, the Maxtor drive was being read as a "removable" SCSI drive... it always showed up in the "Safely Remove Hardware" tool. I've searched around for an answer/solution, but I couldn't find any (other than to reformat, and I wasn't going to do that again...), and since it really wasn't harming anything, I left it alone. (For those who are curious, the drive model is STM3320620AS, and it's labeled as a Maxtor Diamondmax 21.)
• This is the first, last, and only time that I will get an "open-box" motherboard. I had to wait three weeks for Biostar to send me a rear I/O shield and the southbridge heatsink that should've been included with the board in the first place. I guess that it was a good thing, because I used that time to find all of the Vista-compatible drivers that I needed... but is it really that much trouble to include a 15-to-25-cent piece of metal? (And NewEgg: let's just say there's a big difference between how they send their retail motherboards and how they send their OEM/open-box mobos.... )
• After playing with Vista for the past 30 days, I'm staying with XP Pro. I couldn't use the Backup and Restore feature the way that I wanted to (it took me over 12 hours to make four useless restore DVDs, but I was able to make two working restore DVDs in 30 minutes with True Image), UAC is a joke (and there's no way to modify UAC to fix it), and there was nothing else that Vista had that made me want to have it. That said, Vista is stable enough to be used right now, but you'll need to install better security software beforehand.
• To answer my own questions, based on my observations in running this rig: The onboard graphics slowed things down, even with 2GB of RAM (which helped, though I can't really say how much); the passive 8400GS works like a charm; I never used -- let alone trusted -- the Media Center functions, but the built-in DVD/CD burner program works for simple tasks (like ISO burning); and the Foxconn case is great alternative to what I originally had in mind, though having 120mm and 100mm fans in there help.
• I've just found out that Easy Media Creator 10 and True Image 11 were released earlier this week. I thought about getting both at the last minute, but then I remembered that I have to mail a lot of things off this weekend... and that it's going to cost me quite a bit of money to send everything.

Yeah, I could've/should've bought her a Dell... but once I got started, I couldn't give her a crappy rig (considering the circumstances...). I'll posts some pictures of the setup this weekend, and I'll let you know of my aunt's reaction after she starts using it.

 

[Dangman]

Kudos to you for doing this for your Aunt. I usually just force people to use free software as much as possible. Kudos for actually shelling out the cash for the software.

 

[engiNURD]

Not bad. How much did she pay you? nothing?!?!?! yah, I get the same treatment with my fam, lol.

 

[lamboman]

Can I just ask, why did you decide to buy the retail version of Vista? Couldn't you have just gone for the OEM and saved loads of cash?

 

[tiraides]

Kudos to you for doing this for your Aunt. I usually just force people to use free software as much as possible. Kudos for actually shelling out the cash for the software.

The good thing was that, with a couple of exceptions, I was able to get nearly everything on sale. Keep in mind that my aunt is not very computer-literate; so my best option was to get her stuff that she could find in stores. My brother, whose rig I was also working on at the same time (a big reason for some of the "delays" I've had), had mostly freeware to begin with. (Then again, he would never use anything properly... which was why I had to fix his computer in the first place.)

Not bad. How much did she pay you? nothing?!?!?! yah, I get the same treatment with my fam, lol.

My mom's footing (approximately) half the build -- this rig's supposed to be a gift to my aunt. Then again, I did pay for everything up front. (Apparently, retailers won't accept IOUs... strange....) If you recall, she was originally going to be responsible for the rig's peripherals, but then I found a good deal on the monitor, one thing led to another, and....

Can I just ask, why did you decide to buy the retail version of Vista? Couldn't you have just gone for the OEM and saved loads of cash?

Actually, I got a deal on it for around $150 (through a friend). Some of the money that I've spent on both hardware and software will end up being "reimbursed" when I rebuild my rig some time next week... there was some stuff that, for whatever reason, I wasn't able to use on my aunt's rig (...and some stuff that, admittedly, was bought for my rig).

 

[engiNURD]

Some of the money that I've spent on both hardware and software will end up being "reimbursed" when I rebuild my rig some time next week... there was some stuff that, for whatever reason, I wasn't able to use on my aunt's rig (...and some stuff that, admittedly, was bought for my rig).

So... wheres the thread for your build? Whatcha gettin? lol.

 

[tiraides]

The computer was sent out yesterday, and it should reach my aunt in about 3-4 days. (Oh, and enginurd, YGPM.)

Here are some pictures of the rig before I packaged everything up. (56K WARNING: The thumbnails are each linked to 800x600 pictures.)

-----

The front of the case (WARNING: these pictures are a bit blurry... they were taken at the last minute....).


The side of the case... the cable wiring job is probably a 5 at best (and a very generous 5 at that...), but nothing is really in the way of the airflow.

(Yes, nearly everything -- that could be -- was tucked into the side of the hard drive cage....)

In hindsight, this was perfect: the 120mm S-FLEX fan was able to cool the hard drive and the graphics card at the same time...


... and yes, that's the 100mm fan.

I had no problems getting it in, and with the side panel closed, both Scythe fans did a good job of cooling the entire rig. The CPU rarely went over 33°C the entire time that I ran it, and the rig was pretty quiet (especially compared to the other one that I was working on). The only time it made a lot of noise was when I was trying (in vain) to burn the system restore discs using Vista's backup tool (it wasn't so bad when I used True Image's backup tools).

-----

To the folks at NewEgg,

I know (and expect) that, when I purchase an "open box" model of a motherboard, I would receive no software, cables, or additional accessories.



But do really think that the rear I/O panel and the southbridge heatsink should be considered "additional accessories"? Or that it should take me three additional weeks to get them?

Signed, Sigged, and Delivered,
tiraides

P.S. Could you guys also pack the "open box" motherboards the same way that you do for the retail boards? I know that it's caveat emptor, but still....

-----

I can't forget about the peripherals:

(The speakers weren't included because they were a last-minute purchase, and because I was using the monitor's onboard speakers, which work fine provided that the computer settings are at 100....)

... and the software:


And here's the Vista Experience Index (the onboard graphics is the reason behind the low score):

(I have no idea how Vista recognized the onboard graphics, since I've deactivated it after installing the drivers for the 8400GS... or maybe it was the 8400GS.... )

-----

So, that's it... all that's left now is to hear how much my aunt likes the rig.

 

[InorganicMatter]

Why would you install duplicates of programs (firewall, anti-spyware, backup, CD/DVD burning) that Vista already has built in? Seems like a lot of extra money in redundant software.

I personally would just install Vista, Office, and AVG. But if it's already too late, than more power to you.

 

[tiraides]

Why would you install duplicates of programs (firewall, anti-spyware, backup, CD/DVD burning) that Vista already has built in? Seems like a lot of extra money in redundant software.

I personally would just install Vista, Office, and AVG. But if it's already too late, than more power to you.

Vista's security/utilities software is relatively ineffective at best... for example, I installed True Image at the last minute because I was having problems using Vista's backup/restore features. And the reports that I've read on the Vista firewall say that it's basically the XP firewall version 1.5 -- it monitors both inbound and outbound connections, but (still) not very well. With anti-spyware, redundancy works; no one anti-spyware program is going to find everything. (Two antivirus programs? Well... um... you got me there.... ) And the built-in CD/DVD burning software is good for simple tasks, but having/using Easy Media Creator is really more of a comfort thing on my end (I personally use Nero, but Easy Media Creator is a bit more user-friendly IMO).

My issue is that my aunt is not computer-savvy... so she'll more easily recognize programs that came from the store than try to look for the freeware equivalent(s) online. (I'll put it this way: I included one vital piece of hardware with yesterday's shipment.) And all that I'm doing for her is building the rig -- someone else is doing the troubleshooting -- so one advantage that I have with all of this software that I bought is that (for most of them) I can schedule automated maintenance and she doesn't have to worry about much.

Did I mention that Vista's software sucks?