Need some help with building a WC system.

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[H]ard|Gawd
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Nov 22, 2004
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Well, after years of seeing wc systems being built (and some of the beautifull WC setups in the pics thread), I am finally deciding to build one myself. The problem is I am a complete n00b to this stuff. I read the sticky but still am a bit confused as to what parts I should get (the manufacturers in particular).

I know I need a block (for a pentium 478), a pump, and a reservoir. I am possibly going to add a block to my 6800 ultra later, but I am too scared for now to try and literially "peel" that stock heatsink off(damn thermal tape :( ).

My main question is about the most important part, the pump. I have no idea whats good. I think I am going to go with a AC one because, I dont want to go all out on a expensive DC one (and I dont think I can find a DC one that can handle the amount of head I will be dealing with......). After some research ive found you guys like these companies the best:

Iwaki (Super powerfull pumps!)
Danner (Surpreme)
Via (Never heard of them)
Swiftech
Eheim
Hydor
Danger Den (Heard they are crap for high head)

Now for the specs, as you can see I will be using both rads (they each hold 1 120mm fan. I am going to be geting a new CM stacker case soon, because well that XaserII is beginning to get unbearable to look at. So I will probably have the rads mounted on the top of the case with the pump in the bottom of the case (Im going BTX style too). What kind of powerfull pump would I need to be able to handle all that head? I am looking for something reliable (of course!). I was reading up on the Iwaki ones, but I dont know if thats, well, too much power for this kind of application.

Im pretty much stuck there. If im gonna spend the ash I really dont want to end up with some crappy thing that dies a week later.

Questions? Comments? Suggestions? Thanks for your help!
 
those rads look like they will be rather restrictive and liable to kill your flow.

you could get away with a smaller and cheaper pump, if you moved over to something less restrictive like the very popular 1977 pontiac bonneville heatercore.

i'm using a danner supreme pump. it has taken some very serious abuse, and still works just fine. i am, however, in a bit of an odd situation because the rating sticker on it says that it is a series 8, it looks like a series 9.5, and i have never found a series 8 danner looking at online aquarium stores.

it gets really good flow with a pretty restrictive setup(hope to improve this summer) and reasonable noise, whatever it really is.

if you don't mind waiting until the next batch to get one, storm G4 waterblock all the way.
 
I dont want to sound demanding, but I am going to use the ones I have. To be totally honest, they were used for a watercooler on a electronic heater, so I know they should be fine. Im not too sure if it has 1/2" or 3/8" Copper tube throughtout the rad., but Im not sure, Ill get my calipers out later to be sure and measure. I am sure with a pump that moves a good amount of GPM will keep the water flowing at a decent rate.

As for that waterblock, not sure if I like the new design of the storm G4. I mean I was just looking at a detailed review and I see that there is little holes (pin size to be exact) that shoot the water through, into the main block. Im sure it wouldnt take much to clog these holes up.

Im thinking a denger den Maze 4 or copper TDX block may be the way to go for now (depending on which works better more eficent). Ive heard danger den is one of the high-quality leading companies in waterblock manufacturing. Im not sure if you would agree.

As for that pump, isnt that a SUBMERSIBLE pond pump. Unless you have it in a resivour how does it stay cool? (Pump needs to be submerged to keep the oil-filled motor cool?!)

I think I may have found a suitable pump. Eheim ones seem to be QUALITY pumps. They move a good amount of water and carry a 2yr warranty.
Now to decide if I want the 1250, or 1060. Amazing as it may seem the 1060 moves ~4.5 more GPM, but at the same time the pump itself eats up 22 more watts. In terms of heat I dont think that will be a problem, 50 watts total.
BUT seeing im on a budget I think the 1250 is the way to go (I still cant believe it costs $100 for a pump :rolleyes:)

Oh one more thing, are blocks that have 3 hose ports better than the ones with 2? As in they are more effective at cooling, correct? (As in the Danger Den RBX block)

As always, thanks for the reply!
 
well, if i am understanding what those rads were made for correctly, then they were intended to radiate a very large amount of heat, with a high delta T between rad and ambient air. that is rather the opposite of what is desirable with a computer cooling solution.

oh well, if you want to use them, then you're going to use them.

this is one of the few situations where i think that splitting up the flow evenly via a Y connector between the two rads might work better than series opperation, since they look to be so restrictive. i'm counting like 12 pass on each, as opposed to 2 or 4 pass on common watercooling rads.

those little pinholes may very well get plugged easily, however they do their job to give some of the best performance for straight up watercooling out there. http://www.procooling.com/html/pro_testing.php

don't get the maze 4 for straight up watercooling. i use it because it's design is pretty good for peltier cooling, but for most anything else it doesn't even rank with the newer designs.

my pump is submersible, however it is also intended for dry use in aquarium pumping, and i got it partially because the biggest and best aquarium supply store in my region uses them for all of their in-house display tanks, and the manager pointed out a unit in the store that has been running dry, feeding a bank of display aquariums for 5 years of more-or-less continuous opperation without a problem. not an eheim to be seen among the stuff that the store uses internally.

the swiftech 650 unit? by all accounts it is pretty fearsome, but i have been told that it makes an annoying whine while running. maybe that bothers you, maybe not.

what gets the best performance gets the best performance. different designs push different concepts to get the final result of good cooling. don't try to decide that one method is intrinsically superior to another, because they can all work well, it's just a matter of how well things are implimented, and how well that work with the overall design of your system.
 
Heh keep changing my post, as I read more I revise them. Sorry if it makes things confusing.

Yes you are correct, in that they were used to dissapate large amounts of heat (hence all the passes), and this is a reason that I am looking for a fairly powerfull pump. These rads are perfect in terms of housing a 120mm fan and they are already painted.

I al also considering building a waterchilling setup, but I again am scared about damn condensation. (Those rads would work great for refridgerant uses)

Nice counting BTW exactly 12 passes ;)

I just have to figure out how to hook them up so they effectively work, or maybe ill end up using just one, since I will only be cooling the CPU for now. Im not sure if that will be sufficent. My guess is it will be (its 3X as many passes as a normal rad ;) thats alot of time to dissapate heat ).
 
flow restriction goes up with increasing flow. by using both in parallel, you reduce the flow through each individual rad, decreasing the overall restriction of the system.
 
I think with all of those passes, you should probably only need one of those rads, lol. The RBX isn't a very good block in my opinion, unless you have lots of flow, you'll be restricted to its use. Thats the problems with Y-connectors, they kill a lot of valuable flow. Don't get a Maze 4 for CPU, thats not a very good idea, if you want a Danger Den block for CPU I either suggest the TDX or the RBX, although I only recommend the RBX if you have a high GPM.

As for the 6800 cooler, Innovatek, Danger Den, and Aqua Computer all have a rather similar design for it, although i've heard problems of them making the card permabent.
 
KrakenGuy said:
I think with all of those passes, you should probably only need one of those rads, lol.
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i'm not saying that he needs more passes than one rad gives him, and i'm not saying that he needs more radiating capacity. i'm saying that the more water you force through a given size/length of tube, the less flow that you get with a given strength of pump. by using both rads in parallel, he halfs the water going through each one, therefore greatly increases his flow. i think that will put him ahead of the game, even with the loss that running with a Y gives him.

hell, with a 3 barb block, you don't even need to Y things apart.

edit: you are complaining a bit about the price of a high-flow AC pump, and yet one of the very first things that i said was that you could save on the pump, if you got a less restrictive rad. i mean, you'd have to shop around, but you have already been handed an alternative to shelling out the $100 for the eheim.
 
DFI Daishi said:
i'm not saying that he needs more passes than one rad gives him, and i'm not saying that he needs more radiating capacity. i'm saying that the more water you force through a given size/length of tube, the less flow that you get with a given strength of pump. by using both rads in parallel, he halfs the water going through each one, therefore greatly increases his flow. i think that will put him ahead of the game, even with the loss that running with a Y gives him.

hell, with a 3 barb block, you don't even need to Y things apart.
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That reply was very helpfull. I see what you mean now, on how I should setup the rads and block. Looks like a 3 barb block is the way to go.
You guys are really narrowing down the choices fast, so my final decision should be well suited for my application.

Any suggestions are really helpfull!

Thanks! :)
 
DFI Daishi said:
edit: you are complaining a bit about the price of a high-flow AC pump, and yet one of the very first things that i said was that you could save on the pump, if you got a less restrictive rad. i mean, you'd have to shop around, but you have already been handed an alternative to shelling out the $100 for the eheim.
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Im sure I can knock down the price of the pump. Hell I found em on ebay for $55 new. I just have to look around.

Either that or use the same pump as you, although I am not too fond for some reason of using a pond pump in my setup :confused:
 
DFI Daishi said:
what do you thing that eheim pumps are, exactly? do you think that they were made with computer watercooling in mind?

it's a canadian store, canadian price but: http://www.bigalsonline.ca/catalog/product.xml?product_id=27367&category_id=3859&pcid1=2181

same with hydor, via, iwaki and most of the other AC pumps used for watercooling.
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I knew you would say that ;)

I know they are used for fish tanks, but what makes them so much more expensive than other external pumps? Is it quality, the warranty?

Ill keep searching tomorow. First I need a Stacker though to put it all in ;)

Oh and the price I found on ebay is still better than the link you gave me.

Thanks for your help!
 
DaRkF0g said:
I knew you would say that ;)

I know they are used for fish tanks, but what makes them so much more expensive than other external pumps? Is it quality, the warranty?

Ill keep searching tomorow. First I need a Stacker though to put it all in ;)

Oh and the price I found on ebay is still better than the link you gave me.

Thanks for your help!
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i was not putting that link up for pricing. i was just meaning to point out that they are all aquarium/pond pumps.

as for what makes eheim so much more expensive, although they are top quality product, i think that it is largely brand recognitition and import status.

most VWs are made in mexico, but they still sell for premium prices based on branding and the claim of "superior german engineering"
 
If you're looking for value, via's one of the best ways to go. You can pick one of them up (via 1300) for $20 + shipping. They give decent performance(im sure they're not the best) at a great price, and although they vibrate/give off a good bit of noise, there have been numerous webpages that explain how to fix that problem. ;)
 
Okay what's going on here? Why is it that everyone seems to think that a round tube radiator is more restrictive than a flat micro tube cooler that HWL makes? I just got an Aqua Computer Airplex Evo 240 in the UPS yesterday and it looks very much like the same design shown above, but mine has more passes of the tubes and it is somewhat smaller tubing. This radiator is known for being one kick ass rad all over the world! The only downside to it seems to be in the bulk and weight department. But usually the more metal on a rad the better they work.

Now if you really think about this from a restriction point of view, what would you rather put your coolant through? A nice round tube that goes round and round or something that goes into a big tank and then gets forced down these tiny flat tubes into another tiny tank and then forced through another bunch of tiny flat tubes that comes out into another big tank before being squeezed out the tubing again?

My personal *opinion* is that it probably doesn't make any difference whether you use a round tube or a flat tube rad, because each is designed to do a specific job. They both work equally well but do it by two different principles of fluid dynamics (according to my engineering family). Don't ask me what they are because I didn't want to know so long as they both worked equally well. :D

So your surplus rads will work just fine IMHO. However, I should point out that typically these type rads are often used in low flow setups. So perhaps a Eheim 1046 or 1048 is all you really need in a pump? The Eheim pumps are built to last a long time as the service they were built for is usually much more tougher than computer usage is. And of course parts can be had at any aquarium store in the world :D

Please note that the "head" of a pump is rather meaningless in a closed system.
 
i was not thinking that round tubes were more restrictive, in point of fact.

it is more the fact that, to pass through one of those rads, the coolant has to pull 11 sharp about face turns, and a greater length of pipe than with a 2 pass or 4 pass design.

maybe it is a very well optimized design for what it was intended to do, but looking at the thing and having heard a description of what it is intended to do, i thought that it was well optimized for low flow, high temperature differential, opperation. that is not what most computer water cooling systems emphasise.
 
DFI Daishi said:
what do you thing that eheim pumps are, exactly? do you think that they were made with computer watercooling in mind?
Click to expand...

Well most Eheim pumps were designed for aquarium use which BTW is very close to what you want for a computer...solid reliability and something that will push the H20 around. ;) However, Eheim is now building two pumps specifically engineered for cooling computers. The Innovatek HPPS 12v pump and the Aqua Computer Aquastream which has its own separate controller. Both are capable of making a 1046 style pump perform at 1048 levels. How the Innovatek does this I could only speculate, but the Aquastream pump is a totally different animal. The Aquastream is actually a 9v AC pump and the controller converts DC -> AC. It can then be OC by independent programming and it has a flash memory chip onboard and the controller has self diagnostics.
 
DFI Daishi said:
i was not thinking that round tubes were more restrictive, in point of fact.

it is more the fact that, to pass through one of those rads, the coolant has to pull 11 sharp about face turns, and a greater length of pipe than with a 2 pass or 4 pass design.

maybe it is a very well optimized design for what it was intended to do, but looking at the thing and having heard a description of what it is intended to do, i thought that it was well optimized for low flow, high temperature differential, opperation. that is not what most computer water cooling systems emphasise.
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Depends on where you are in the world :eek: If your in the USA I would agree with you, but if you were anywhere else you would be whistling a different tune. Why do you suppose that outside of the USA very few people are willing to put in a high flow system? I would speculate that once the radiator is filled with H20 it doesn't matter how many bends it makes at least that is what is my hunch on this turbulent topic. ;)
 
Top Nurse said:
Well most Eheim pumps were designed for aquarium use which BTW is very close to what you want for a computer...solid reliability and something that will push the H20 around. ;) However, Eheim is now building two pumps specifically engineered for cooling computers. The Innovatek HPPS 12v pump and the Aqua Computer Aquastream which has its own separate controller. Both are capable of making a 1046 style pump perform at 1048 levels. How the Innovatek does this I could only speculate, but the Aquastream pump is a totally different animal. The Aquastream is actually a 9v AC pump and the controller converts DC -> AC. It can then be OC by independent programming and it has a flash memory chip onboard and the controller has self diagnostics.
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well, if he is looking a the specialty computer cooling varients, then i will consider myself proven wrong, however i was under the impression that he was looking at the cheapest eheim AC pumps that he could find, which are not the speciaty WC versions.
 
Did I make a boo boo? I thought he was looking at an Eheim 1250 and they go for about $80. What I said before was that with his system he might do just as well with a 1046 or 1048. However, the Aquastreams are about a $100 so it's maybe $20 more and has much more capability for future expansion. I guess I should learn not to intrude on others conversations ;) :eek: :eek:
 
Top Nurse said:
Depends on where you are in the world :eek: If your in the USA I would agree with you, but if you were anywhere else you would be whistling a different tune. Why do you suppose that outside of the USA very few people are willing to put in a high flow system? I would speculate that once the radiator is filled with H20 it doesn't matter how many bends it makes at least that is what is my hunch on this turbulent topic. ;)
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dude, i'm not in the states.

as much as your current president would like to think otherwise, canada is a seperate country from the us.

i just wish that our current PM had the balls to tell that idiot you guys have in power otherwise. georgy-boy has about a grade 5-6 reading/speaking level according to a registered speach therapist that i know.

now, as for the rad issue, i really wish that i had some courses in fluid dynamics under my belt so that i could discuss this issue in an informed manner.

it simply seems to me that you would need pretty low flow for rads like these to work terribly well. they have a very long path for the coolant to flow through, and unless the coolant is quite hot to start with, then the added path length is not going to get the coolant a whole lot closer to ambient temperature.

the multiple small tubes of a thermochill, a heatercore or a black ice rad have greater cross sectional area than the rad pictured above, and a shorter path length. this makes them well suited to larger volumes of coolant flow, and coolant temps only a little above ambient.
 
Top Nurse said:
Did I make a boo boo? I thought he was looking at an Eheim 1250 and they go for about $80. What I said before was that with his system he might do just as well with a 1046 or 1048. However, the Aquastreams are about a $100 so it's maybe $20 more and has much more capability for future expansion. I guess I should learn not to intrude on others conversations ;) :eek: :eek:
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he says that he found a 1250 for $55.
 
DaRkF0g said:
Im sure I can knock down the price of the pump. Hell I found em on ebay for $55 new. I just have to look around.
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he said it earlier in this very thread.

i'm not saying that he should necessarily go for it, but he seems to be trying to cut his costs by using what he has and the best prices that he can find on the rest.
 
Wow I leave for a night and there a are 10 posts, and 1 goes all political :p

As for a pump, I mainly just want something that will get the job done. Ill type more when I get home from school, time to leave for now ;P

FYI, the 1060 is more efficent in water movment than the 1250. But that also comes at a price. IMO any reliable pump would get the job done, as long as it fits the specs, (in terms of head and water movment) in my case.
 
DFI Daishi, Im going your route. I know a pump running at a fishstore has to put up with alot and for 5 years, well thats pretty damn good.

So I went up into our attic, remebering we have an old pondmaster pump, so I decided to give that a try. Im trying it out as I speak (type :p )

I have one of the ones on this page. I dont know the model because the label on the pump fell off long ago.

Now, this pump WAS meant to be either submersible or inline (like yours). When I have it in a bucket and its hooked up to the rads the flow is excellent. I was surprised how well it worked, so I raised the rads to put it to the test and the flow dropped just a little bit.
BUT this was when the pump was SUBMERGED.

I took it out of the water and ran it, and it barely pumped if all. Now this pump IS a few years old, and Im not totally sure if it was meant to run inline, but I may go to the store and buy a new one. This one has some wear on it, but its not too bad at all.

What exact pump are you using for your setup? A pondmaster or something else?
(Its hard to believe I can get double the flow for half the ehiem price!)

Thanks!

PS. So far so good with the rads, no leaks in the loops itself or between the fins, flow with this pump doesnt seem to be a problem, well submerged that is, and the rads really barely cut down on the flow. I really dont think Ill need a "Y" to divide the flow up between rads, I just need a pump that works inline. Hell I mean if the new one doesnt work inline Ill just take it back, and continue my quest for one that does :p
 
mine is a danner supreme mag drive, as opposed to a danner pondmaster.

as for which one it is................as i said earlier, i have not been able to find one exactly like mine, and the danner website was useless for trying to find info on their pumps.

the rating sticker says that it is a series 8 utility pump, but it looks more like a series 9.5 than it looks like a series 7, and it has 1/2" threads, instead of the 3/4" that the 9.5 is supposed to have. it is rather weird, and maybe not an genuine danner, in spite of what the box said.
 
there's a rule of thunb for water flow and bends, but I don't remember precisely what it is. I think it's with something like that radiator you posted each one of those 180° bends is like adding 8 or 12 inches of straight tubing to your loop. calculate how many bends you have and it gives you a rough approximation of exactly how much resistance you're adding using them.
 
Head alone doesnt matter too much for watercooling, but the head loss shows how well the pump's flow is through higher levels of pressure.

As for recommended pumps, the Via Aqua 1300 is great for $20 (+ shipping if you cant find it at a pet store close to you), then the Hydors are really good depending on your price level (L30/L35 for a better pump than the 1300, ~$50). After that, youre really better off with a DC pump for ease, reduced size, and of course better flow.
 
Allright,

Got the pump to work inline. Turns out my fittings werent tight enough, hence they were pulling air through and cavitating the pump.

The pump itself moves a decent amount of water, considering there is 1/2" to 3/4" reducers on there to make it to the rad.

Now for a waterblock. I believe a Danger Den RBX block may be good for this setup. It looks like the 2 inlets and 1 output shouldnt be a problem because I have enough flow.

If anyone else has any recommendations for a block let me know ;)
 
wtiger said:
there's a rule of thunb for water flow and bends, but I don't remember precisely what it is. I think it's with something like that radiator you posted each one of those 180° bends is like adding 8 or 12 inches of straight tubing to your loop. calculate how many bends you have and it gives you a rough approximation of exactly how much resistance you're adding using them.
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I am sure the ID of the pipe also makes a diffrence too. But Ill believe that statemtny is true sounds accurate.
 
regarding the RBX: it has one inlet and two outlets, not the other way around.

that is sort of why i was thinking that it would be easy to work the rads into a parallel config. one rad gets fed by each outlet, and then they Y back together to go into the pump.
 
Oops typed my post in a hurry. Thats what I meant to say. I tested my pump with the rads, and with 1 rad there is very little difference in the flow. With the second rad you can see the difference though, the flow is still good though. Im beginning to think of other ideas that I can add onto this mod. Ill talk more about them after I get a block.
 
before you install the pump for real a few suggestions: open up the impeller housing and clean up the innards. check the shaft for hairline cracks. maybe use a bit of fine grit wet sandpaper to smooth off any rough bits on the working surfaces. a new o-ring for the impeller housing would probably be a good investement. make sure to use plastic fittings going into any female threaded connections on the pump, so that differential expansion does not stress the plastic when the thing is up to opperating temp.

if you unit is made the same way that mine is, then the screws holding the impeller housing on are plain old self-tapping ones. check to make sure that the holes that the screws thread into are not too chewed up before putting things back together. if the holes are in rough shape, maybe coat the inner surfaces with a bit of epoxy and let that set up before putting the screws in again.
 
Hello DFI,

Already there with that stuff. Going to go out and get a new gasket tomorrow, and maybe a new impeller. I cleaned up the housing and such and checked out the magnetic impeller. Its in fair condition. You can sell its been used but there are no deep scratches on the magnet itself.

Hell they are only $10 for a replacment.

As for the screws, yep they are taps and its missing a screw too, need to find one in my spare parts bin. Not stripped out though.

As far as fittings go, heres what I have so far. This is mainly brass stuff I had laying around. I leak tested it today and it was all good, Ill to a overnight leak test once I get my block, also need to make sure those rads dont have any slow leaks.

Pics of the pump:
(Ran out of hose clamps BTW ;) )
pump1.JPG
 
Allright,

I think I decided that I am going to go with a Danger Den TDX block to be safe. I have no idea how many gpm's im putting out and I dont want the pressure to be too low once i stick a 6800 Ultra block in the system.

Now heres my question, or should say I am in need of a recommendation.
Throughout the system I have 1/2" to 3/8" reducers.
The pump has 1/2" fittings on it, but the rads have 3/8" fittings. Now should I keep all the tubing in the system 1/2" until it hits the rads, or should I go with 3/8" tubing and fittings?

This comment is kind of dumb but, will I achieve better flow if I use 1/2" tubing from the pump to the block, then use a reducer right before the rad?

I am trying to maximize the flow as much as possible with what I have. I need to know soon because I need to know what size fittings I need to get for the TDX (1/2" or 3/8").

Thans everyone for making valuable contributions! :)
 
with the possibility of low flow, swiftech 6000/6002 might be a safer bet.

i would say 1/2" fittings and tubing most places in the system, and then have a 1/2" to two 1/2" Y right before the rads. you can then connect the Y to the rads with 3/8" hose, warmed and then stretched over the 1/2" Y barbs. similar arrangement on the other side of the rads, coming back to the pump.
 
So DFI like this:

dfi.jpg


Oh and I also read the Swiftech ones need a powerfull pump (300+ GPH) to effictively cool. I forgot the reason. Saw a review comparing the TDX to the Swiftech ones but the link didnt work. Here it is

EDIT: Check THIS out!
 
if you wish to shorten it, please shorten it to daishi. every time someone uses dfi.......i start to grow this narrow little mustach and start to think of fire.

now, as for the diagram, i am still saying to use Y connector to run the rads in parallel instead of series, and 1/2" tubing on the single side of the Y, then 3/8" on the double side of the Y. each 3/8" goes into one rad, and then comes back together to 1/2" before going back into the res/pump.

as for high flow, that pump is a danner 300 GPH at the very least, and looks more like a 500 or 700 GPH.
 
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