Need some help: Small Business fully wireless

D

dj LiTh

Limp Gawd
Joined
Mar 10, 2008
Messages
229
Hi everyone, ok here goes...

So the company i work for is moving offices to a slightly smaller office. The bosses want it to be COMPLETELY wifi, yet at the same time they will be switching their phone systems to a Nextiva virtual PBX phone system. I've already figured out how to make each of the phones wireless, and have no problem with the client computers/server etc. The thing i'm really stuck on is what wireless router to buy? I think anything under 1000 dollars would be acceptable to them but if its close to that please say it anyways.

Projected setup
22 Cisco SPA303g Phones made wireless via Cisco WBP54g
20 Wireless computers ranging in connection from N/G/B (laptops/desktops etc)

The new office has very thin walls and is about 1500square feet in a rough square (very few walls). The server room is in the back middle of it, so i dont think range or coverage from one router will be a concern at all.

What i'm worried about is since we are going to a completely wifi setup, including with the phones that many devices, plus prolly another 20 smart phones, that any standard wireless router wont be able to handle the connections properly, the most important being of course the phone system bandwidth.

This is a little above my realm of hardware knowledge with enterprise equipment, so i would really value any suggestions on router hardware or things to watch out for in doing this move.

Thanks in advance
 
Is there enough money to upgrade them to wireless N?
 
450 said:
Is there enough money to upgrade them to wireless N?
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For the phones i'm not sure thats an option, but i also dont think its really needed. I would deffinitely prefer a N router thats backward compatible /w the other B/G standards. Oh i forgot to say, it doesnt have to have special VPN tunneling or crazy security, just be able to handle all the I/O requests and most importantly not crash/good uptime
 
I didn't mean the phones, I meant the computers.
 
450 said:
I didn't mean the phones, I meant the computers.
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Oh yes, some of the desktops currently do not have wifi. I was planning a simple usb N wireless adapter for them. As for the existing laptops they range in age and connectivity, so the newer ones yes, but we do have some old wireless hardware here as well that dont have this built in.

Its a Real Estate company, so just a file server and an internet connection is all thats needed. Most of the agents bring in their laptops or use a desktop they brought from home (makes my life a nightmare everyday).
 
www.smallnetbuilder.com

They have wonderful router reviews. Easily some of the best reviews I've read on networking equipment for SMB.

In their reviews they generally show you the # of connections each router is capable of (most is 4096, some 8192, and a few Cisco SMB devices are up around 30-40k connections capable).

Now, connection as I'm sure you're aware does not equal physical connections. But the higher that #, the less issue you will have once traffic picks up. I'd figure on each user 100 connections, so a mid grade SMB unit should suffice, but spending more won't necessarily hurt in the long run, the price difference between shit and awesome isn't as dramatic as it used to be.
 
Wow, going completely wireless is not really that great of an idea. With that many devices you're going to need some decent business class APs, preferably light-weight APs with a central wireless controller. I would stay far far away from consumer/smb wireless routers in this type of setup. I'm thinking more in the neighborhood of $3-5,000, not $1k, for an appropriate solution.

Honestly, I would just go wired for the phones and desktops. If you don't get this wireless solution implemented properly you're in for a lot of dropped connections and pissed off users.
 
stiltner: Thank you very much for the site. Really appreciate teaching me how to fish rather than feedin me ;)

Captain: I absolutely agree wholeheartedly with you about going full wireless not being a good idea. The bad thing is its not my decision. I've brought up the very same thing regarding lost connections with so many wireless devices unless an amazing wireless router was chosen hopefully once they see the that it will be cheaper going for a half/half situation rather than a fully wireless setup they will see the light, or atleast their own pocketbook.
 
Captain Colonoscopy said:
I'm thinking more in the neighborhood of $3-5,000, not $1k, for an appropriate solution.

Honestly, I would just go wired for the phones and desktops. If you don't get this wireless solution implemented properly you're in for a lot of dropped connections and pissed off users.
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QFT. 40+ devices on a consumer grade Router/AP? That's what we like to call tempting fate. The coverage isn't going to be the issue, it's the RF throughput on the wifi side. Especially with VOIP in the mix. VOIP does NOT like lost or delayed packets. Web browsing/file server browsing is much more tolerant. With that many Wireless devices, the better solution would be to get the building cabled if it's possible. The cost for hard line should be around, if not less, than a proper bullet-proof WiFi setup. It'll definately be multiple AP's also, not just 1.

As the Cap'n alluded, do this right or it'll bite you in the ass faster then you put the plan together to begin with. Take into consideration that your "client-base" in this case is 20+ people whose lives depend on a commission pay structure. If they can't communicate, they won't make sales and therefore not get paid. You don't want to play games in this environment. Pissy is not the word for what they're going to be.

Show your bosses this thread. It might help. Either that or be prepared to pass the buck when things go south...
 
Nate7311 said:
QFT. 40+ devices on a consumer grade Router/AP? That's what we like to call tempting fate. The coverage isn't going to be the issue, it's the RF throughput on the wifi side. Especially with VOIP in the mix. VOIP does NOT like lost or delayed packets. Web browsing/file server browsing is much more tolerant. With that many Wireless devices, the better solution would be to get the building cabled if it's possible. The cost for hard line should be around, if not less, than a proper bullet-proof WiFi setup. It'll definately be multiple AP's also, not just 1.

As the Cap'n alluded, do this right or it'll bite you in the ass faster then you put the plan together to begin with. Take into consideration that your "client-base" in this case is 20+ people whose lives depend on a commission pay structure. If they can't communicate, they won't make sales and therefore not get paid. You don't want to play games in this environment. Pissy is not the word for what they're going to be.

Show your bosses this thread. It might help. Either that or be prepared to pass the buck when things go south...
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Thanks for Chiming in. I hear you on getting it right, as is my intention. I'm currently thinking a multiple AP solution might be the way to go. I'm having trouble however finding any material covering multiple AP's that cover the same range that can load balance between themselves. Is a AP controller a necessity to get the feature of load balancing in for say 2-3 wireless AP units?
 
Captain Colonoscopy said:
Wow, going completely wireless is not really that great of an idea. With that many devices you're going to need some decent business class APs, preferably light-weight APs with a central wireless controller. I would stay far far away from consumer/smb wireless routers in this type of setup. I'm thinking more in the neighborhood of $3-5,000, not $1k, for an appropriate solution.

Honestly, I would just go wired for the phones and desktops. If you don't get this wireless solution implemented properly you're in for a lot of dropped connections and pissed off users.
Click to expand...

cant you plug the desktops into the phones?

putting all those things on wifi is going to require a lot of AP's
 
Man, i've been asked this question by customers so many times - it's almost troubling.

First off, wire the server. I wouldn't even want to see the corrupted files on the file server otherwise. We put ECC/reg'd ram in a server to copy and replicate files without error.. but implementing a wireless card in a server throws that protection right out the window.

Secondly, I have wired a few real estate companies with a cisco 2500 controller with a bunch of cisco 1040s (or 1140s, don't remember) and it acted just like wireless does - buggy as sh!t. Some buildings with little interference have been ok though.
The funniest install was at a welding shop. Their compressor turned on = network went down (it was funny, cause we warned them...) Also having a server on wireless, on the other side of a kitchen was pretty comical too. Microwave turned on = no one could access the file server. :)
It's our job to let our customers know these types of things.. when they don't listen to us and still want to pay big $$$ for the installations, I also believe it's our job to laugh when it comes out exactly how we know it will.

The last customer, we had a third party company install the systems, which cost them north of $6000. It still doesn't work correctly, and we've distanced ourselves from the problem. Even hiring a professional wireless company doesn't help much either (ie: more money doesn't solve the problem)

I would give a rough guess of half of the companies who have purposed to us they want to be "fully wireless" have had us in to physically wire their facility within a few months. Others have just worked around a buggy system because they blew their budgets already.
Also, stay away from having to support wireless a/b - it will DRAG your entire network down. Try to go all N (or dual band N) if you can.
 
I do not envy you my friend :)

I wont comment on any of the previous posters, and i've got no experience with high grade wireless.
 
Luckily, the server will be wired. Right now i have a rough idea in my mind that i'm going to do a server, cat5'd to a router, then that cat5'd to a few wireless ap units. I think i finally convinced my bosses that at the very least lets wire the voip phones, so that cuts down the amount of wireless devices almost in half. So i figure about 20laptops and desktops will be wireless. I'll make sure they are all N connected of course. I was thinking of the AP to be a dual band N and then for legacy (it is a real estate company after all with people bringing in their laptops from home, so most of the time they are old equipment) b/g connection on the other band. Luckily i'm positive that coverage wont be a problem even with 1 AP, as said before its all about load balancing and throughput. I think with the phones out of the wifi mix, that its a lot more feasible now as its only going to be comps/smartphones on the wifi. I'll keep postin back about my progress and how it turns out. I know i need to be looking at business AP units, but i checked out the cisco/linksys 4200, was thinking of using a few of them as AP's without load balancing but just do that manually (put 3/4 on 1 connection, and the other 1/4 on the other and that is also the one that smart phones and walkins to the office would connect to.) they in their specs are able to have 34,925 simultaneous connections each, so between 20 some odd devices 2 should be enough? Or do you guys think this is also tempting fate going this route with a legit business class switch/router, and then using two or three 4200's as AP's?
 
When you setup multiple AP's, have them all on the same SSID and channel (use a different channel than a standard). Keep them the same so that you're not running multiple wireless networks - it will just confuse the shit out of everyone (yourself included).
I would keep the connection as wireless N only, and for the handful of people with laptops at home or whatever, have some spare usb N keys - they're cheap, so keep a few on hand as part of project costs.
 
Rison said:
When you setup multiple AP's, have them all on the same SSID and channel (use a different channel than a standard). Keep them the same so that you're not running multiple wireless networks - it will just confuse the shit out of everyone (yourself included).
I would keep the connection as wireless N only, and for the handful of people with laptops at home or whatever, have some spare usb N keys - they're cheap, so keep a few on hand as part of project costs.
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I was under the impression that i should have the same SSID but different channels for my AP's? If i get a dual band N/G/B router do you think i still should just transmit N? I never knew about b/g from the same dual band router effecting the N band as well? Thanks for chiming in to Rison, i really appreciate these tips and experience that everyone's been posting
 
dj LiTh said:
If i get a dual band N/G/B router do you think i still should just transmit N? I never knew about b/g from the same dual band router effecting the N band as well?
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I actually read that on smallnetbuilder.com where if someone connected via Wireless B, it dragged down the network. I've never actually tested this myself - I just kinda took their word for it.
There is a 4-part article on wireless and interference, and there is a part 2, where they talk about netstumbler and so on.

http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-howto/30182?task=view&limit=1&start=1
 
So, after a lot of thought, and even more research this is what i think i'm going to be going with:

New%20Office%20Setup.jpg


Its a mixture of professional and consumer products. The Cisco Linksys e4200 will act as the DHCP server and also the wireless 5ghz N band AP. The other access point will be handled by the tried and true Linksys WRT54GL wireless router, of course with all its dhcp/nat turned off. It will be operating at 2.4ghz for the b/g bands to give backwards compatibility to older laptops and also smart phones. At the heart of it is the Cisco SLM2024T switch, which is a 26 port gigabit managed ethernet switch. Plugged into it will be all the VOIP phones (about 15-20). It has the capability of Link Aggregation, so i can with the help of an intel dual gigabit NIC installed in the server have two 1 gigabit connections to the network as this will be the most loaded part of the network accessing the file server.

I believe this setup spreads out the wireless connections fairly eveningly, as the only computers that will even have the N band wireless capability will be the ones i supply the USB N band NIC. I figure this will be in the neighborhood of about 10 total connections (half laptops half desktops). The other wireless access point thats handled by the Linksys WRT54GL will probably handle anywhere from 5-15 connections with the majority being smart phone devices and also a few older laptops. The entire network will be gigabit cat5e connected (except the server and the e4200 which will have cat6 just for extra headroom as i've read that cat5e is pushed to its limits with gigabit ethernet, i would like to just be doubly sure to avoid any bottlenecks if possible). I'll be setting up both routers with the SAME SSID but DIFFERENT channels, as i've read on smallnetbuilder its best to seperate teh channels as far as possible to avoid any interference so 2.4ghz b/g will be chan 1 and 5ghz N will be chan 36 (or whatever highest chan it can do).

All that plus coupled with some custom QoS that i can do from both wireless AP's and the switch to make sure the VOIP phones get all the bandwidth they need, i think i'll be in good shape. And all for a little over $500.00

Questions? Comments? Suggestions? Oh Noes?!? ;)
 
shinygecko said:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833120354&Tpk=1941w

If i were laying this out to be reliable first of all i would not go wireless but if thats the only option i would go with a 1941w router and procurve switch. I would not skimp on the wireless adapters for the ones that need to be purchases that are not built in to the systems.
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Ya thats the problem with this setup, almost all of it has to be wireless for the simple fact that it was requested by the bosses and isnt that flexable. I was lucky enough convincing them that the voip phones should be wired.

That looks nice, but way out of budget, $150 vs $1200 when my total budget is about $1000 and if i did buy that, i wouldnt be able to afford anything else and also not be able to plug in my voip phones into anything
 
dj LiTh said:
So, after a lot of thought, and even more research this is what i think i'm going to be going with:

<snip> Image <\snip>

Its a mixture of professional and consumer products. The Cisco Linksys e4200 will act as the DHCP server and also the wireless 5ghz N band AP. The other access point will be handled by the tried and true Linksys WRT54GL wireless router, of course with all its dhcp/nat turned off. It will be operating at 2.4ghz for the b/g bands to give backwards compatibility to older laptops and also smart phones. At the heart of it is the Cisco SLM2024T switch, which is a 26 port gigabit managed ethernet switch. Plugged into it will be all the VOIP phones (about 15-20). It has the capability of Link Aggregation, so i can with the help of an intel dual gigabit NIC installed in the server have two 1 gigabit connections to the network as this will be the most loaded part of the network accessing the file server.

I believe this setup spreads out the wireless connections fairly eveningly, as the only computers that will even have the N band wireless capability will be the ones i supply the USB N band NIC. I figure this will be in the neighborhood of about 10 total connections (half laptops half desktops). The other wireless access point thats handled by the Linksys WRT54GL will probably handle anywhere from 5-15 connections with the majority being smart phone devices and also a few older laptops. The entire network will be gigabit cat5e connected (except the server and the e4200 which will have cat6 just for extra headroom as i've read that cat5e is pushed to its limits with gigabit ethernet, i would like to just be doubly sure to avoid any bottlenecks if possible). I'll be setting up both routers with the SAME SSID but DIFFERENT channels, as i've read on smallnetbuilder its best to seperate teh channels as far as possible to avoid any interference so 2.4ghz b/g will be chan 1 and 5ghz N will be chan 36 (or whatever highest chan it can do).

All that plus coupled with some custom QoS that i can do from both wireless AP's and the switch to make sure the VOIP phones get all the bandwidth they need, i think i'll be in good shape. And all for a little over $500.00

Questions? Comments? Suggestions? Oh Noes?!? ;)
Click to expand...

Oh Noes? Well. Given the constraints you are under ($1k budget/40+ wifi clients/bulletproof operation), it's impossible to do what's asked. Plain and simple. Most of us have been in your shoes before, with a boss/client that wants to impossible on a shiestring budget with zero downtime. If your boss will accept occasional resets, then you can try it the way you've designed. A friendly word of advice: Get your boss to put it in writing (email, note, whatever) so you can defend yourself later. Bosses are NEVER wrong. Just ask them, they'll tell ya :D. Any hickups will cause downtime and sales to suffer. Did you see my comment before about showing your boss this thread?
 
Do your phones not have a passthrough ethernet port? Since your plan has you wiring them. At-least then you could wire your desktops and have a backup plan incase your wireless goes down for your laptop users
 
Both good idea's! I think i will deffinitely have them put it in writing that they know all the possible outcomes with the route they are going and possible downtime. As for the phones i dont think they do have the pass through ethernet port but thats a really smart idea i didnt think of, perhaps i can steer them to some voip phones that do.
 
Hi dj LiTh! Check the Cisco 880 Series Integrated Service Router:

http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/col...eet_c78_459542_ps380_Products_Data_Sheet.html

In my opinion, this is far better compared to a Linksys router. This is a more reliable router to use for VOIP, Wireless and even security. By the way, do you already have a plan on how to set-up your wireless APs? How are you planning to address interference issues in your wireless network?
 
ugh, all that on a 1k budget? yeah.. get that in writing.

Just prepare to reset the linksys router every morning when you come in.
 
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