Need NAS / Choices?

P

Phimp

Gawd
Joined
Dec 9, 2006
Messages
596
UPDATE: I'm going with FreeNAS, but I need FreeBSD drivers for the Atheros L1 lan chipset

I've searched high and low, read everything I could find, researched all kinds of NAS boxes, and I'm still at a loss for what I should go for.

Requirements:
NTFS (or anything that all windows machines on the network will be able to use w/o filename/filesize issues arising)
Samba (windows folder sharing)
support for 3+ drives (750GB since 1TB drives are just too expensive and I don't need 2+ TB yet.)
RAID-5 (need the security)
gigabit ethernet

Aesthetics and footprint size aren't the biggest of my worries but it would be nice to be able to have this sitting on my desk without people asking, "what the hell is that loud ugly case for?"

HP MediaSmart home servers? look nice and have support for 4 drives, windows home server = simple to use and has a decent alternative to raid5 (can't remember what it's called, folder duplication or something like that)

Or cheap barebones system and throw FreeNAS or Ubuntu Server on it?

Also, with the cheaper barebones pc route, what should I use as a system drive? I have small spare HD's laying around but most of them are ridiculously loud. USB flash drive? I know they have limited read/write cycles, but I'll just keep an image backup of the tiny little thing and if/when it goes out, replace it, pretty cost effective, and I can't imagine a file server needing to access system files very often if all logs and such are disabled.

I'm thinking pick up this barebones system, a cheap dual core celeron, a gig or two of memory, then just wait for a great deal on 500GB to 1TB drives.

Are there any factors I'm overlooking?

I don't need this ASAP, I'll probably hold off on everything for a couple months so I can scope out the best hard drive deals.
 
Ya, I first found that site about a year ago. Heaps of useful information, especially with benchmarks.

It just seems that there are so many NAS's that they cover and I'm just not sure what choice is best for me, and there are still simple questions I'd like to have covered.

I've decided to go the barebones pc + WHS or FreeNAS route. I just can't afford a nice 4 bay NAS box right now.

Here's my issue...

I'm tight on money right now but I really need a centralized file storage server for multiple computers to access and 25% of it is important data that I absolutely can't lose, the rest is data that I would be pretty ticked off if I lost but would manage without it. And I need 1TB+

So that leads me to either...

a} FreeNAS w/ Raid-5 using 3x750GB drives
Cost: under $200 for the pc and $100x3 for the drives)

b} Windows Home Server using folder protection (or whatever it's called) to backup the really important data and buy just one 750GB drive for now, and I can use two 250GB drives I already have that are currently being used for file storage, since WHS doesn't need the drives to be the same size like RAID-5 does (it's more like JBOD from my understanding, or just separate partitions), and then add 750GB drives as I get the money in the future.
Cost: under $200 for the pc and $100 for a 750GB drive, 2x250GB = free

I would really like to have RAID-5 so I don't have to worry about losing anything unless a catastrophic event causes more than one drive to fail simultaneously, but I don't like the idea of having to buy three 750GB drives for $100 each when I could put my two 250GB drives to use with JBOD or such.

I'd go with FreeNAS and use JBOD or separate partitions, but having to manually backup the important data to a separate drive could get old pretty quickly.

Is there a simpler way to have some sort of redundancy for important data that I'm overlooking?

ugh, I type too much.

Oh, and raid card if I go the FreeNAS route? what's the cheapest I could get away with here? I'd use onboard/software raid if possible. I don't care about those extra few MB/s as long as it's not crawling slow, and I don't really care about crazy features, as long as it supports Raid-5
 
No Raid is a substitute for a separate (external) backup of your important data.

Raid does not protect you from power surges, viruses, controller failure, accidental deletion, or 2 or more hard drives failing close together. Raid only increases your data availability.

I have been working on databases for almost 20 years now, and have seen multiple instances of bad luck hit people. Backups that seem to run fine that really didn't. Multiple hardware failures, viruses. You name it.

I store my important data on a Raid 1 NAS (Hammer Myshare), that I back up to 2 separate external hard drives. I only backup my music and picture/docs folders off of the Nas. I can easily replace the pr0n.

Don
 
Hmm, very good points.

Well, I've looked into my budget a little bit more and I figure I might as well not wimp out on the hard drives and have to deal with WHS's JBOD style of disk storage.

This is what I've decided on so far:
- FreeNAS
- 3 x 750GB Drives (cheapest I can find)
- Software Raid5 using FreeNAS
- Eventually upgrade PC's on network and Router to Gigabit (next few months)

NAS PC:
- CPU+RAM+Mobo = $64
- 4 x Sata HDD Controller = $30
OR
- AMD 2.2Ghz AM2 45W CPU = $40
- Micro ATX Mobo = $40
- 2GB Memory = $30

Plus a cheap PSU and Case (I hate attempting to find a cheap case, they all look like crap)

And I would throw the 2x250GB Drives I currently have into external cases and use them as USB Drives to weekly backup the most important data on the NAS.

The system drive FreeNAS would use could be either a spare 20/40GB HD i have laying around or a CF to IDE adapter and a 4GB CF card.
I've also noticed that a lot of people have created two software raid5 arrays on their disks. one that is only 2gb or so large for swap and the other for data. Not sure how necessary that would be, would a NAS setup really use the swap partition that often?

I'm currently setting up a VMWare Machine to simulate the setup with software raid-5 so I can get a preview of what I'll be dealing with.

Let me know what you think. Suggestions much appreciated, especially for PSU and Case!
But as you can see, I'm trying to keep this really cheap.

Thanks for the input so far.
 
Decent case and psu, thanks for the suggestion. But it shows as $71.61 + $18.80 shipping = $90.41. A little steep for a case that looks just alright.
Newegg has it for a lot cheaper. (link) with a rebated that is...

I really want one of the smaller shuttle type cases.
$65 for this one w/ a 420w psu I'm not sure about the quality of the psu though.

But this would be a lot easier to bring to another location if needed. Is a lot smaller, looks nicer, and is cheaper.


Anyways, I've been playing around with FreeNAS in a virtual machine for the past hour or so, and I really like it. Easy to use, easy to install and configure, just what I was hoping for.
I just have a couple questions...
- in a raid5 array, can you set each disk to standby after x minutes to be more power efficient? or would one shutting down mess up the array?
- I formatted the raid5 array with the UFS filesystem on my virtual machine, and sharing with windows computers seems to work great. But what are the limitations of UFS with windows users? filename length? unsuported characters? anything funky i should know about before i moved tons of data over?
- and how can you expand a software raid5 array? I've searched and searched and checked all over the menus and documentation, and I can't find much only something about mdadm and that it could be done with a few steps in the command line. can anyone shed some light on this? I'd like to add a 750GB drive in the future to the 3 i will be using.

Edit: apprantely there's no possible way to expand a raid5 array in FreeNAS because it uses graid which does not support raid expansion. There is one way I've found but it's extremely complicated, there is supposedly a php script that automates it, but I can't find it, and even so, it doesn't work for arrays >2TB and if I am adding a 3rd 750GB drive, that'd be over the cutoff for this unsupported hack of an expansion and I'd be toying with the loss of all of the data on a 1.5TB array. not fun. so uh... any suggestions? I don't exactly come by TB hard drives often so I couldn't just find somewhere to copy the data to while I created a new raid5 array with a new disk, then move the data back... This has me really worried.
 
Phimp said:
I really want one of the smaller shuttle type cases.
$65 for this one w/ a 420w psu I'm not sure about the quality of the psu though.
Click to expand...

The PSU is horrible. Apevia makes/brands/selects some of the world's shittiest PSUs. They're number 1 in my list of PSU manufacturers to avoid. Would not risk any kind of PC with that PSU.

As for your MDADM question, I think this two threads have the neccessary commands to expand a RAID5 array:
http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1032013555&postcount=9
http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1032542719&postcount=1
 
from reading a little further and some searching the boards on sourceforge it appears that FreeNAS does not use mdadm :(
But thanks for the suggestions on that, I'll keep looking into it, maybe you can use a different software raid manager or something when you install it.

And jeez, I thought PowMax was the worst company of all time for Cases and PSU's lol I'll add Apevia to the list.

As for cases, I'd really like to pick up this thermaltake case, but then I'd have to throw in the cost of a decent PSU, same with the Apevia case. I posted a thread in the Case Subforum. Hopefully I'll figure it out there.

If I don't get any small-case suggestions there, I'll go with the Antec you linked to. (thanks again for the suggestion!) I just hate dealing with $20 shipping charges for a case. maybe something local, I dunno yet.

So... Expanding a Raid5 Array in a NAS box. Anyone have any suggestions? It seems I may have to turn away from FreeNAS if there is absolutely no support for it.
 
Ditch FreeNAS then. Use a Linux distro of your choice, use MDADM to setup and maintain the RAID and you're set. I recommend using Ubuntu since it is a bit more newbie friendly.

A couple of guides to read on setting up Software RAID5 with Ubuntu:
http://bfish.xaedalus.net/?p=188
http://www.howinthetech.com/quick-and-dirty-linux-software-raid5/
http://scotgate.org/?p=107
http://www.kolbu.com/2007/01/10/growing-raid5-sets-in-ubuntu/

And a few more guides on how to setup Ubuntu to do what you want:
http://www.bit-tech.net/bits/2007/06/05/build_your_own_server/1
http://www.bit-tech.net/bits/2007/07/24/build_your_own_better_server/1
http://howtoforge.com/howtos/linux/ubuntu
 
I've built a couple Ubuntu boxes before so it shouldn't be too difficult, especially with how well documented it is.
I shouldn't have tested FreeNAS in a virtual machine though, I fell in love with the web interface options, and the Webmin addon just isn't as pretty or easy. haha

I could just go with a hardware raid controller card, but ones that support Raid-5 aren't cheap and the ones that are have high failure rates from what I've read.
Like this rosewill controller card, and use it with this cheap combo.
That would make for a very cheap NAS. Then I could use FreeNAS and not have to worry about software raid. But I can't find information pertaining expanding raid5 with that card anywhere, or if it even supports it.

But as far as speed goes, if I get 20MB/s using Gigabit ethernet I'll be content, so I don't need crazy raid solutions for top performance.

Edit: I'm gonna go through the Ubuntu NAS routine with a virtual machine to give it a test run.
 
I've tested both FreeNAS and Ubuntu (customized for NAS samba use) with software raid5.
FreeNAS is a LOT easier to get configured and everything working flawlessly.
Ubuntu and FreeNAS both have the same performance levels in Virtual Machines with the same specs.
Ubuntu wasn't too difficult to get working, including getting the raid5 set up and shared.
Replacing a disk in the raid array is quite easy in FreeNAS, but I'm still trying to get it to work in Ubuntu using mdadm, having slight issues, but I'll figure it out eventually...

I think I may end up going with FreeNAS since it's easier to use, simpler, smaller, more thumb-drive friendly, easier to replace drives, supports recycle bin on Samba shares (Ubuntu doesn't or at least I don't know how to set that up)...
and just scratch the idea of adding a 750gb drive later. If I ever need 2TB, by then 1TB drives should have dropped slightly in price. I'll buy 3 x 1TB drives, so i can move from one raid5 to the other, then sell the 3 x 750GB drives on this forum/ebay/craigslist. And when I go through that upgrade, I'll reconsider the OS for the NAS.

So I guess all I have left to make final decisions on is the actual hardware.

- CPU+RAM+Mobo
- 4 x Sata HDD Controller
OR
- AMD 2.2Ghz AM2 45W CPU
- Micro ATX Mobo
- 2GB Memory

With the first system if the controller died, I could just buy another $30 card instead of a new motherboard trying to match the same sata controller chipset. But the 2nd option has onboard GigE and is a bit more powerful, which could help with large transfers over GigE...

Oh, and CF to IDE adapter and a 2 or 4gb CF Card for the system? about $20 and would mean less heat, space being taken up, noise, and energy consumption than an ancient 20gb drive I have laying around. Or maybe just a USB flash drive?

Edit: I've done a little more research regarding hardware raid controllers and I found out I could snatch this little gem for ~$70. It has been confirmed that it works flawlessly with FreeNAS with a little tweaking of the configuration bios. And 6 ports would be a plus, especially since it'd be easy to expand the raid5 array with more 750gb or 1tb drives in the future.

Let's say the 3 750GB drives are $300, cpu/ram/mobo/CF+adapter are $135, case+psu is $80 that's roughly $500 without the hardware raid controller... $200 is pretty much my absolute max for the pc without the drives.

maybe if I can make some extra sales this month... anyone interested in buying fine art prints? :D lol
 
As an eBay Associate, HardForum may earn from qualifying purchases.
Here's the hardware list so far.
I'll go with FreeNAS software raid, and if I can find the drives for cheaper than expected, I'll pick up the hardware raid controller I suppose.
I'd like to start ordering parts soon, like today perhaps, so let me know what you think.
 
See if that mobo supports booting from a flash drive. If so, I recommend using a flash drive rather than a CF card.
 
Most newer motherboards support booting from a USB Drive, although I couldn't find anything to confirm this board can from it's pdf manual. I found a guy who was booting from a USB Floppy Drive, and usually if it supports booting from any type of usb peripheral it can boot from usb flash drive.

I'll try it, and if it doesn't work I'll buy the CF card & adapter.

I can't even count how many usb drives I have floating around :p
How would the speed compare?
 
I run a couple linux based file servers running software raid5 and lvm. I use mdadm to configure and maintain the raid arrays. I tested freenas for a several months, but liked the full functionality of a linux server. I can setup a web/ftp server/bw monitoring as needed and it runs fairly well on low hardware.
Running Software raid5 gives me the flexibility of changing sata controllers or mobos w/o causing a big headache.
My biggest difficulties were finding a good SFF/matx case that could fit 8+ hard drives and then finding the right sized cables for everything.
That being said, I plan on building a FreeNAS box as a backup server using an ide/cf adapter for boot and a usb thumb for backup of the boot. I might just skip the cf though and use the usb flash.

Your hard ware looks fine. However, that 6 port Dell SATA card is a 64bit PCI-X card while ur mobo is only 32bit PCI. You may want to get confirmation that the card can run on a 32 bit PCI...
 
Yes, I have confirmed that it is compatible with 32 bit PCI, but I may go without the card, or pick it up later if/when I upgrade to Terabyte drives in the future if I decide to stick with FreeNAS so I may use hardware raid so I can expand the array later.

I don't like the idea of not being able to expand the array when using FreeNAS and software raid but besides that it seems like the optimal choice for me. If I need more storage later, I'll upgrade the three drives to Terabyte drives.

But I'm wondering if I could shave $50 or so off of the hardware costs by getting cheaper Motherboard, CPU, & Memory. Especially since I'll be using FreeNAS which doesn't need hardware that Vista could run on :p

Any suggestions?
 
u could always pick up stuff off the forums... im not sure how much u would save, but i would hold off on the raid card until later since that mobo has 4 x sata ports. Without finding parts on sale or clearance, its hard to say how much u can save. but the places where u would save would be slower/cheaper cpu, less feature mobo, or a cheaper case/psu. I would kinda suck it up and get a good mobo w/features/a future upgrade path and try to ebay/forum the rest for ubercheap.
 
I'd prefer to buy new so I can RMA w/ NewEgg if any issues occur.

The motherboard I had picked out is Out of Stock so unless it comes back in soon, I'll be going with this motherboard for $10 more: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813135076
Edit: Scratch that... that mobo had a $10 rebate but it ended yesterday. so I'm back on the hunt for an AM2 board w/ 4+ sata ports & onboard video.

And for the CPU...
AMD Athlon 64 for $47 or AMD Sempron for $30

The cheaper has only 256 L2 Cache... that shouldn't matter in a NAS box though should it? If not, I'll go with that for $17 less.

And memory, 1GB Kingston DDR2 800 for a lot cheaper up front since the other 2gb set was $30 more and had a $10 rebate i think.

I noticed the case now has free shipping, so I'll probably pull the trigger and order the the parts when i get the nod of approval from someone.

I'm gonna wait on the 750GB drives until they're on sale for $100 each.


And just to confirm with those who have used FreeNAS...
software raid arrays are transferable between motherboards and controller cards?
so i could add a sata controller card later or swap motherboards without any issues? just recreate the array with the drives and just don't check "Create and initialize RAID". And it should recognize the existing array?

Thanks for the help thus far everyone!
 
mjz_5 said:
why get a nic, isn't there one onboard????
Click to expand...

The gigabit nic is for my main PC, hence the two cat6 network cables in the list also.
I just got back from Best Buy, I picked up the D-Link DGS-2205 5 port gigabit switch for $35. If the card and cables work out alright, I'll order another cable and another nic for the my work pc.

Wow... I just realized how ridiculous my home network has become. lmao
 
Yes is a bit complicated.

Any plans for simplification in the future?
 
Well, I would replace the DI-604 Router with the WRT54G, but I like the firewall of the DI-604 and it doesn't get bogged down and lock up and need a restart like the WRT54G occasionally does. Also, the WRT54G needs to be placed in a window on the opposite side of the house in order to get the best connection for my neighbor across the street whom I let mooch off of my network.

I need to have a router to act as a DHCP server and I don't believe there are 8 port gigabit routers available that aren't extremely expensive Cisco products, and I have a lot of wired devices, so both the DI-604 and the DGS-2205 are necessary. I could replace the WRT54G with a WiFi Access Point and connect all wired devices to the DGS-2205 switch.
Or, buy a 4 port gigabit router to replace both the DGS-2205 and the DI-604, and connect the WRT54G, Main PC, Work PC, and NAS to this new router, and have the remaining three wired devices connected to the WRT54G.

I went with what I have now because it only cost me $35 for the switch and a few bucks for a couple cables to upgrade to gigabit, and i now have plenty of free ports for computer/device additions in the future. Daisy chaining the devices also doesn't seem to effect the network speed of any of the devices, so as long as it works I'll just not bother with upgrading everything.
 
I got everything (except for the drives, I haven't purchased them yet) via UPS today and got it all set up and after a few hiccups with the installation process, I got FreeNAS running on a 128MB flash drive.

But the onboard lan does not work.

It uses the Atheros L1 chipset.

I've searched and searched but can't seem to find any drivers or how to get it working under FreeNAS/BSD...
this is the only thing i can find, and I don't understand any of it...

Am I going to need to purchase another $20 GigE nic so I can get my nas up to gigabit speeds on the network? lame.

meanwhile, I'm using an ancient Netgear NIC i found in an old PIII box... 10/100... works for now.

Edit: and apparently FreeNAS doesn't like IDE drives either. It doesn't detect them at all.

Makes me kinda want to just use Ubuntu... but then I'll have to purchase a CF card and CF-IDE adapter because I don't want to use an entire drive for the OS, and that would be the same price as a new NIC for use in FreeNAS...
 
After seeing your link for the AAR-2610sa card on ebay for around $70 I ordered one and got it set in my system. Just wanted to warn you that the write speeds are pretty sad with that card. I realize that I crippled it more by putting it in a standard PCI slot (it is a PCI-X card), but HDTach reports an average speed of 27 MB/sec on a RAID5 array.

Just wanted to let you know since in case you needed better performance. I wanted something relatively cheap to throw in my existing server running Server 2003, but at this rate I may end up trying one of the Perc 5/i cards off Ebay for better performance (if I can get one to work with my ASUS motherboard).
 
I'm running 3xWD 500 RE drives in a RAID 5 array. I held off on adding the 4th and now I'm glad I did since I may need it to move stuff around if I upgrade to a Perc 5/i card.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top