Need help with PC Gaming Audio Selection

[1Wolf]

This is sort of a "follow up" to a post I made a week or so ago where I asked for some PC Gaming sound system help. Originally I had planned to select a Logitech Z-906 or Z-5500 speaker system and a sound card. I received lots of excellent help, alot of links that led me to additional reading where I was able to pick up a few things, some excellent advice, and some suggestions..namely...that I forego the "Logitech speakers + soundcard" system that I was originally planning and go for an AVR + Passives.

Since that time, I've had an opportunity to go to a Best Buy near me and listen to some. I've narrowed things down a bit so I figured I'd start a brand new thread and ask for your help in shopping and selecting. Please know, as you offer advice, that I'm not an audiophile so I'll probably need the simple simon answers. Some of the links I've read in the past week have been way over my head It'll take me years to gain that kind of understanding .

Requirements:
1) 5.1 Setup.
2) PC Gaming
3) Occassional Blu-Ray movie watching.
4) I don't listen to much music on my PC, once in a while I do listen to music..but its rare.
5) My current speaker system is a Klipsch Pro Media 5.1 system from a X-Fi XtremeGamer Sound card. This is what I'm upgrading from so the new setup needs to be head and shoulders better than this to make it worth my money.
6) My PC is on an "L-Shaped" office desk in the corner of the office in our home. I've got a 24" Dell panel with the Left Front and Right Front speakers on either side of it, and the center channel below it. The subwoofer is on the floor, against the wall, under the desk. The rear satellite speakers are on speaker stands 4-6 feet behind my office chair on each side of me...at about 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock.
7) My budget for the audio setup is somewhere between $500-$1000.

First off, for the usage described above, is it still the general consensus that I should go for an AVR + Passives instead of sticking with my current setup (Sound Card + Klipsch Pro Media 5.1) or going with a new set of Logitech Speakers?

Second....Sound Card or No Sound Card? The motherboard I'll be purchasing for this build is an ASUS P8Z77 Deluxe with Realtek ALC898 Sound. The majority of time that I'm gaming I play through the 5.1 setup. For games that I need alot of voice communications (Online FPS, Online Flight Sims) I game through a headset and boom mic. Once I've got the rest of my audio system that I'll be purchasing nailed down, I'll come back and put up a separate thread asking about headsets. From my last thread, I learned that headsets are a separate subject all on their own.

If you recommend that, for my uses, I get a sound card...what would you recommend?

Third...If, after reading the above, you're definitely thinking that an AVR + Passives will be a huge step up in audio quality, experience, immersion, and enjoyment in gaming for me from my current Klipsh Pro Media 5.1 setup and will be better for my uses than other setups...

Then that brings me to AVR's and Speakers....

Speakers
The Speaker recommendations I've had so far were...
Energy 5.1 Take Classic Home Theater System
Pioneer SP-PK21BS 5.1 Channel Speaker Package
Mirage MX 5.1 (I'm not sure which exact model)

I've read reviews online for the first two 5.1 systems described above and they both get wonderful reviews.

What would you recommend? Would you recommend one of the above or something different entirely? Will that be a significant improvement over than what I have for the usages described above?

Receivers
I listened to a few of them in the Magnolia part of Best Buy over the same set of speakers...

The Pioneers I didn't particularly care for. The sound seemed really brutal. It was like there was "too much" of everything. Too much rumble. The subwoofer just seemed to be constantly rumbling and the sound seemed indistinct and kind of muddy. It was like it was overwhelming my ears.

The Denon AVR-1712 and AVR-1912 seemed real nice. I liked the sound. It didn't seem to have the problems that I described with the pioneer above. The sounds were more distinct, more clear...just better to me it seemed. The Denon AVR-1312 was recommended to me here in a previous thread.

I listened to a Yamaha receiver as well. It sounded nice as well...although my ears weren't well enough trained to be able to tell the difference between the Denon or the Yamaha.

What would you recommend? Is the Denon AVR-1912 or AVR-1712 too much receiver for my needs? Is the Denon AVR-1312 too little receiver for my needs? Would you recommend a Yamaha instead?

Thanks!

 

[Procyon12]

the Pioneers you linked are the best speakers for their price range, but they are larger speakers, i remember you requesting things to be kept on the small side.

the Mirage are great if you need to keep things really small. i orginally reccomended them because you made comments on size constraints.

i really like the Energy Take 5.1s, and they are probably 2nd only to the pioneers in that price range.

two other options to consider:

http://www.amazon.com/Martin-Logan-...d=1343337150&sr=1-2&keywords=martin+logan+mlt

http://www.amazon.com/MartinLogan-M...d=1343337150&sr=1-1&keywords=martin+logan+mlt


Both of those are really good, but the speakers are a little larger than the Energy's. i would say picking between either of the Martin Logans and the Energy's are a good choice, and would keep your budget down a bit.

id go for the 1612 or up in order to get audessy multieq

Magnolia doesnt setup their systems properly. its really hard to judge sound.

what is your monitor resolution?

 

[1Wolf]

Thanks for chiming in again Procyon. I certainly appreciate the help.

the Pioneers you linked are the best speakers for their price range, but they are larger speakers, i remember you requesting things to be kept on the small side.

the Mirage are great if you need to keep things really small. i orginally reccomended them because you made comments on size constraints.

Size constraints are as follows:
Front Left & Front Right Speakers can be up to about 8" Wide...maybe a little wider if I reorganize my desk here a bit. They need to be around 12" tall or less...give or take. They can be around 8" deep...give or take.

Center Channel speaker can be up to about 20" wide.

Surround Channels would be best if they could fit on the speaker stands I have now. If not, I'm sure I could figure something out...the stands are just convenient. I've got another spot I can put them...but they would be a bit further behind me then they are now. Right now they are at around 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock...just maybe 2 feet behind me. If I lean back actually...my ears are right between them. The other spot I could put them is mounted on the walls at about 5 o'clock and 7 o'clock behind me....about 7 feet behind me on the left and about 9 feet behind me on the right.

i really like the Energy Take 5.1s, and they are probably 2nd only to the pioneers in that price range.

two other options to consider:

http://www.amazon.com/Martin-Logan-...d=1343337150&sr=1-2&keywords=martin+logan+mlt
http://www.amazon.com/MartinLogan-M...d=1343337150&sr=1-1&keywords=martin+logan+mlt

Both of those are really good, but the speakers are a little larger than the Energy's. i would say picking between either of the Martin Logans and the Energy's are a good choice, and would keep your budget down a bit.

For that "price range", do you think the Pioneers sound "better" enough to give up the desk real-estate and fit them in? Or do you think that they are so close in sound to the Energy set or the Martin Logan's....that I'd be better off with the Energy set or the Martin Logan's and save on footprint?

I read reviews of the Pioneer and Energy sets (I hadn't added the Martin Logan's into the mix until you mentioned them just now), but unfortunately, alot of the language, jargon, and comparisons in those reviews read like quantum physics to me I couldn't determine from the reviews whether the Pioneer sounded alot better, a little better, or a tiny tiny smidge better and only a trained ear could tell the difference.

If you were in my situation, choosing from the sets that have been mentioned (Pioneer, Energy, Martin Logan Set 1, or Martin Logan Set 2)...what would you choose and why?

id go for the 1612 or up in order to get audessy multieq

I'm doing the "compare products" on the Denon site now. It doesn't look like they make the 1612 anymore...however...

I'm comparing the 1613 and the 1713 and they both seem to have nice features. Unfortunately...I don't seem to know what half this stuff is...lol. I see that the 1713 is "Windows 7 Certified" and also listed has "PC Control Capability" which might be cool in that it is going to be connected to my PC. I'm not sure what that does but it sounds good...lol. The 1713 lists "Pure Direct/Direct/Stereo modes on Digital/Analog" inputs while the 1613 doesn't.

The 1613 actually seems to have a feature the 1713 doesn't...which seems odd to me. The 1613 has dts-HD Master Audio and High Resolution Decoding which isn't listed for the 1713. The 1613 also lists a "Processor(s) - Bit Depth and Type of "ADSP21487x1 32-bit floating point" while the 1713 doesn't list anything at all there. Not sure what that means. The 1613 also lists "Banana Plug Speaker Terminals, All Channels" while the 1713 doesn't...again...not sure what that means.

They both have USB Audio Ports for iPod Direct/Flash/HDD which, if I'm guessing what it is correctly, would be nice.

They both have a "3D Pass through" which is nice as I MIGHT end up getting a 3D Capable monitor...and I've already planned on a PC Blu-Ray burner that happens to have 3D on it. I didn't specifically select it for the 3D..it just happens to have it.

What do you think about those?

what is your monitor resolution?

Currently 1920x1200.

I may end up getting a different monitor though...which may end up being 1920x1080. I haven't decided on whether I'm going to get another 1920x1200 or whether I'll get a 1920x1080. Thats a whole separate subject

 

[spaceman]

Pioneer is going to sound best of the lot. They are larger speakers and the extra woofer real estate will be noticeable. You want dynamic range, which means they can play LOUD and clear as well as soft and clear. Those will do it. The sub is very entry level but fine for the price.

 

[SithSolo1]

The pioneers are a good step ahead of all your other choices but just looking at the specs they are gonna be at your maximums for all size dimensions.

 

[silent-circuit]

I'd take the Martin Logans over the Pioneers any day, but I've never been impressed with Pioneer's build or sound quality... To be fair I've never heard that particular set.

 

[Procyon12]

Thanks for chiming in again Procyon. I certainly appreciate the help.
Size constraints are as follows:
Front Left & Front Right Speakers can be up to about 8" Wide...maybe a little wider if I reorganize my desk here a bit. They need to be around 12" tall or less...give or take. They can be around 8" deep...give or take.

Center Channel speaker can be up to about 20" wide.

thats quite a bit of space actually.

Surround Channels would be best if they could fit on the speaker stands I have now. If not, I'm sure I could figure something out...the stands are just convenient. I've got another spot I can put them...but they would be a bit further behind me then they are now. Right now they are at around 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock...just maybe 2 feet behind me. If I lean back actually...my ears are right between them. The other spot I could put them is mounted on the walls at about 5 o'clock and 7 o'clock behind me....about 7 feet behind me on the left and about 9 feet behind me on the right.

going further back would actually be more beneficial.
look here and scroll down to the bottom see the THX reccomended placement for desktop speakers.

http://www.thx.com/consumer/home-entertainment/home-theater/surround-sound-speaker-set-up/

it doesnt have to be perfect, but see which works best.

For that "price range", do you think the Pioneers sound "better" enough to give up the desk real-estate and fit them in? Or do you think that they are so close in sound to the Energy set or the Martin Logan's....that I'd be better off with the Energy set or the Martin Logan's and save on footprint?

possibly. when you're working with smaller distances, you can get by with less. if this were for a living room i would say definetly get the pioneers if they fit.

I read reviews of the Pioneer and Energy sets (I hadn't added the Martin Logan's into the mix until you mentioned them just now), but unfortunately, alot of the language, jargon, and comparisons in those reviews read like quantum physics to me I couldn't determine from the reviews whether the Pioneer sounded alot better, a little better, or a tiny tiny smidge better and only a trained ear could tell the difference.

they are probably a little bit better and the differences would probably close in at lower volume and by extension, closer distances.

If you were in my situation, choosing from the sets that have been mentioned (Pioneer, Energy, Martin Logan Set 1, or Martin Logan Set 2)...what would you choose and why?

out of those 3 sets, id probably go for the martin logan mlt-2.

but a lot of that depends on whether you need to fill your $1000 budget or not and if this is your primary source for surround sound, be it games or movies, i would consider getting up there.

I'm doing the "compare products" on the Denon site now. It doesn't look like they make the 1612 anymore...however...

I'm comparing the 1613 and the 1713 and they both seem to have nice features. Unfortunately...I don't seem to know what half this stuff is...lol. I see that the 1713 is "Windows 7 Certified" and also listed has "PC Control Capability" which might be cool in that it is going to be connected to my PC. I'm not sure what that does but it sounds good...lol. The 1713 lists "Pure Direct/Direct/Stereo modes on Digital/Analog" inputs while the 1613 doesn't.

that refers to DLNA streaming. you can stream media from your PC to the receiver over the network. not needed when your PC is right there.

The 1613 actually seems to have a feature the 1713 doesn't...which seems odd to me. The 1613 has dts-HD Master Audio and High Resolution Decoding which isn't listed for the 1713. The 1613 also lists a "Processor(s) - Bit Depth and Type of "ADSP21487x1 32-bit floating point" while the 1713 doesn't list anything at all there. Not sure what that means. The 1613 also lists "Banana Plug Speaker Terminals, All Channels" while the 1713 doesn't...again...not sure what that means.

the 1713 has DTS-HD Master and banana plug terminals. im not even sure what it means by high resolution decoding, banana plug is just the type of terminal on the speaker wire. not terribly important.

They both have USB Audio Ports for iPod Direct/Flash/HDD which, if I'm guessing what it is correctly, would be nice.

They both have a "3D Pass through" which is nice as I MIGHT end up getting a 3D Capable monitor...and I've already planned on a PC Blu-Ray burner that happens to have 3D on it. I didn't specifically select it for the 3D..it just happens to have it.

What do you think about those?

The Denon AVR-1612 is basically the same thing as the 1613 without the network features. and is still availible on amazon
http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR-1612-Channel-Theater-Receiver/dp/B004U403WM


Here's what i might suggest.
Denon AVR-1612: $285

2 sets of Emotiva XRM 41, front and rears. (5.5x5.75x8.5") $320
http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/speakers/products/xrm41
LMK if these are too large for the rears, ill try to find a suitable replacement.

Bic F12 Subwoofer $200.
http://www.amazon.com/BIC-America-F...e=UTF8&qid=1343381199&sr=1-1&keywords=bic+f12

total = $800.

you might be wondering why there is no center channel. reason being, is that most center channels that would fit your real estate concerns would not hold up to the quality of the other speakers that i have listed, OR it would be too big. i would rather have the center channel sound be split to superior L and Rs then have you get a cheap one.

second thing is that when you sit right in the middle of the L and R the center channel becomes less crucial. third is that for games its less crucial than movies.

there are really good center channels, but the price would push you over budget, and i remember you originally wanted to spend $500-$600.

if you feel you need to add a center channel, i would go with a definitive tech mythos 7
http://www.amazon.com/Definitive-Technology-Mythos-Center-Speaker/dp/B000TDEMLG
4" tall by 4" deep x 20" wide.

that would be the minimum i would get to keep the quality with the other speakers you have and still be fit under a typical monitor and be less than 20" wide. but see the cost.

with a grand, thats what i would do, and it would obliterate your klipsh setup.

but, the Martin Logan MLT-1, will cost half as much and still be better.

LMK if you want to keep it around $500-$600 or go push your budget.
there are tons of options availible if we pick and choose speakers independently.

 

[spaceman]

The 3 inch drivers are to be avoided. That is what i don't like about the martin logans. Emotiva is always an excellent choice.

 

[1Wolf]

You guys are awesome! Thanks so much for all the help! I'm really glad that I asked instead of just going the route that I WAS going to go.

I'm pretty excited about getting my new audio chosen, assembled, and put to use

So, just reading back to you guys to make sure I follow, it sounds like the majority consensus (up until Procyon's last post) is that...if I can fit them...the Pioneer set is the way to go.

possibly. when you're working with smaller distances, you can get by with less. if this were for a living room i would say definetly get the pioneers if they fit.



they are probably a little bit better and the differences would probably close in at lower volume and by extension, closer distances.



out of those 3 sets, id probably go for the martin logan mlt-2.

but a lot of that depends on whether you need to fill your $1000 budget or not and if this is your primary source for surround sound, be it games or movies, i would consider getting up there.

Gotcha...so I'm just reading this info back to you to see if I've got this...

For my purposes, if getting the speakers to fit were not an issue, you're preferences..in order...would be...

1) Martin Logan MLT-2 Set
2) Pioneer SP-PK21BS Set
3) Energy Take 5.1 Set.

and of those, they are all so close in quality and performance that you believe I probably wouldn't notice the difference. If desk space were at a premium though and I simply couldn't get the larger speakers to fit...then the Energy Take 5.1 Set would be the ticket and I probably would still be tickled pink.

Of the 3 above, the general consensus so far from everyone who has helped seems to be the Pioneers.

Moving on to your suggestions....

Here's what i might suggest.
Denon AVR-1612: $285

2 sets of Emotiva XRM 41, front and rears. (5.5x5.75x8.5") $320
http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/speakers/products/xrm41
LMK if these are too large for the rears, ill try to find a suitable replacement.

Bic F12 Subwoofer $200.
http://www.amazon.com/BIC-America-F...e=UTF8&qid=1343381199&sr=1-1&keywords=bic+f12

total = $800.

you might be wondering why there is no center channel. reason being, is that most center channels that would fit your real estate concerns would not hold up to the quality of the other speakers that i have listed, OR it would be too big. i would rather have the center channel sound be split to superior L and Rs then have you get a cheap one.

second thing is that when you sit right in the middle of the L and R the center channel becomes less crucial. third is that for games its less crucial than movies.

there are really good center channels, but the price would push you over budget, and i remember you originally wanted to spend $500-$600.

if you feel you need to add a center channel, i would go with a definitive tech mythos 7
http://www.amazon.com/Definitive-Technology-Mythos-Center-Speaker/dp/B000TDEMLG
4" tall by 4" deep x 20" wide.

that would be the minimum i would get to keep the quality with the other speakers you have and still be fit under a typical monitor and be less than 20" wide. but see the cost.

with a grand, thats what i would do, and it would obliterate your klipsh setup.

but, the Martin Logan MLT-1, will cost half as much and still be better.

LMK if you want to keep it around $500-$600 or go push your budget.
there are tons of options availible if we pick and choose speakers independently.

Okie dokie....

My budget is $500-$1000, give or take.

The Emotiva XRM 41 Fronts and Rears, The Emotiva Sub, with the possibility of the Definitive Mythos 7 center channel weren't in the running with the above Pioneer, Martin Logan, and Energy Take setup...

So how does the Emotiva set you recommended stack up and compare with the other options? Does that become your new #1 pick? If so...does it then become...

1) Emotiva Setup (With the Mythos 7)
2) Emotiva Setup (without the Mythos 7)
3) Martin Logan MLT-2
4) Pioneer Set
5) Energy Take 5.1

You can only describe qualitatively, and that actually helps alot, but if you rate the Emotiva setup (without the Mythos 7) as better that the other 3 choices...how MUCH better would you consider it..say...on a scale of 1-10?

If I were to add in the Mythos 7 center channel....the total is around $1200 which forces me to push my budget a bit...but to consider that...I'd want to ask...

How much better would you consider that setup if I added the Mythos 7...again...say on a scale of 1-10?

Speaking of scales of 1-10...that actually really gives me some perspective and a frame of reference. Of the 5 choices above, for my purposes, what would you rate each?

One more question with regards to receivers...

You'd mentioned you'd recommend that AVR-1612 and that it was the same as the AVR-1613 but without the network features. I was able to compare the AVR-1613 features to the AVR-1713 on the Denon site...and for the $50 price difference between the two...I might have gone with the 1713. So my question is...how does the 1612 compare to the 1713? I can't directly compare them on the Denon site as they don't list the 1612 anymore. I'm just curious what the 1713 has that the 1612 doesn't so that I can weigh whether its worth another $150.

Thanks again Procyon. Sounds like I've got this almost narrowed down now. Then I'll still have to order everything and assemble the new system...the waiting will be agonizing! lol.

 

[spaceman]

The emotivas are entry level high end. They are going to sound more realistic than the pioneers. Clearer too. A wild ass estimate would be that they sound 10 to 15% better than the pioneers.

 

[Procyon12]

from what it looks like, the main differences between the 1613 and 1713 are one extra HDMI and audyssey multiEQ XT over multiEQ.

the multiEQ XT should give a little bit better room correction EQ for the speakers.

i would hold off on the center channel, unless you can possibly fit a larger one in there. do you think you could fit 5.5high x 5.5" deep?

 

[1Wolf]

Yup...I think so.

The current Klipsch Pro Media 5.1 Center Channel I have there now is 4.5" tall, 8.5" wide, and 5.5" deep. It sits right below my monitor and I should have enough height adjustment on the monitor to lift the monitor up another inch or so.

Also....I'm not sure if this will help or do any good...but I figured I'd throw this out there in case it helps you give me a frame of reference or put things in terms I can understand when it comes to quality...

My current living room Home Theater System is as follows...

AVR: Yamaha RX-V663
Front Left & Right: Definitive Tower 7006's
Center: Definitive Procenter 1000
Surround Left & Right: Definitive Promonitor 800's
Surround Rear Left & Right: Definitive Promonitor 800's.

 

[Procyon12]

what you're getting for the PC should be quite comparable, possibly better. the L/R mains you have are really good speakers. the Pro Center 1000 is definitives entry level center channel and the pro monitor 800 for satellites.

i might suggest putting the Pro Center 1000 temporarily in your PC setup and test with and without the Pro Center. if you feel the presence of the center makes a good difference, you can get another one for the PC, or keep it at the PC and get something better for your living room.

the Center is the weak point for your living room. not to say its bad, but the rest is really good. and i dont know the distances, but it might be too small for say 10-15' listening distance.

 

[1Wolf]

I'm glad I posted up what the living room set was made of. My wife and I purchased that back around 2008 and every since then, my ears might not be the ears of an audiophile but it definitely sounded like the center channel was weak.

I really wish I had posted for help with my Home Theater setup back then...I sure could have used it. I trusted the "Geek Squad" from Best Buy..and ugh...what a disaster that was. But thats a whole separate story

So...the setup you were helping me with above...do you think that if I stuck my current Definitive Pro Center 1000 there as a center channel for the PC setup it would work well with the rest of the speakers?

If so....how does that Definitive Mythos 7 center channel stack up to the Definitive Pro Center 1000? Maybe it would be better to go ahead and get that Mythos 7 center channel you linked and put that in my living room set...then take the center channel that is there and put it on the PC with the other speakers you mentioned.

Our living room is a strange animal for sound because of the way its setup. The seating area is a good 12 feet from the television. The walls are all cedar plank and the ceiling is vaulted (Its an A-Frame House) and peak a good 23 feet over your head. There is no second story above your head. It does weird things to sound...nothing bad...just unlike any place I've heard before.

Anyhow....

I still need to make my decision on the speaker setups...and I meant to ask you...

How does the entire Emotiva XRM 41, Bic F12 Sub, and possibly Definitive Pro Center 1000 setup stack up again the other 3 sets in our discussion? It sounds like I've got 4 "package" choices (not including the receivers which I think we've got nailed down now).

1) "Custom" set of Emotiva XRM 41, Bic F12 Sub, possibly Definitive Pro Center 1000 (With the idea of snagging that from my living room and replacing it with the Mythos 7)
2) Pioneer Set
3) Martin Logan MLT-2
4) Energy Take 5.1 Classic

I'm trying to figure how those will stack up against each other for my purposes or how the 'rate' against each other to ears more skilled than mine. I guess on the "Simple" scale....choices 2, 3, & 4 are simples as they are "Home theater in a box". I'm guessing you'll say that set #1 that is "Custom" is a better setup....I'm just trying to understand and get an idea of how they'll compare.

 

[Impulse]

You can find the Denon AVR-1612 for much less than $285, I've seen it recently at Crutchfield for $220 and they aren't the cheapest online store (I often shop there regardless for the free shipping to Puerto Rico)... Pretty sure I've seen it for $180 or less refurb, good deal if you can find it (check accessories4less or electronicsexpo).

 

[Sycraft]

So just two things to note about running a system without a center channel:

1) Receivers engage a non-defetable dynamic range compression on the channels when the center isn't present for surround input. They do it because they are counting on 5.1 sound and they don't want to blow out the speakers with too much being sent to them. It isn't a massive deal, but it is something that changed the sound at high volume levels. Your computer will be sending a 5.1 signal to the receiver since they don't really have a spec for 4.0 (or at least I've never seen a card that sent 4.0 digitally) it just doesn't send anything on the front or LFE channels.

2) Your system will have no way to address the sub, as there's no 4.1 setting in Windows, only 4.0 and 5.1. Now for most games this isn't problematic, they don't address the sub they just send full range sound to the channel and the receiver or speakers handle the crossover. However for movies or the occasional game that does try to directly send LFE out, they can't since it isn't there.

I personally really like the idea of no center for PC gaming since if you have good front speakers and focus them well it really isn't needed. In fact in my setup it sounds slightly worse since it is a bit higher than the fronts and thus the sound field shifts up, but I don't have much choice if I want to be able to have everything work right.

So just be aware there are some issues. Home theater gear just assumes you either go 2.0, or 5.1 (or more).


Also in terms of Denon receivers, make sure to buy from an authorized reseller (Denon lists them on their site) to get the warranty, they won't honour it otherwise. However make sure to call the reseller and get a better price. Denon enforces agency pricing so they can't sell for less online but you can call and many will give you a better price. Electronics Expo and J&R both do for sure.

 

[Procyon12]

good points in there, but there are methods to get around it since he is using a PC.

he could decode and fold the center into the mains on the PC for example, and the receiver would be none the wiser. you can set this all up in your FFDshow filters.

 

[Sycraft]

good points in there, but there are methods to get around it since he is using a PC.

he could decode and fold the center into the mains on the PC for example, and the receiver would be none the wiser. you can set this all up in your FFDshow filters.

I suppose you could lie to the receiver and tell it that it has a center when it doesn't, but that rules out Audyssey. If you run any calibration software, the receiver will know what speakers you have, it'll know there's no center and turn on the DRC. You'd have to hook up a center, measure it, and then take it away. I considered something like that but decided that I wanted to have the computer able to address the sub, and also that I'd spent $600 for the center, I was going to use it .

As I said this isn't a show stopper, just something to be aware of. Receivers are not really cognizant of the idea of 4.0/4.1. They see it as "5.1 where a channel is missing," and react accordingly. Same deal if you are missing the sub, or surrounds.

 

[1Wolf]

I think, just for personal preference, I'd rather make sure I stick to having a center channel. Alot of the things I just read that you guys discussed is a bit out of my element...forcing receivers and tricking things. For me...I'm thinking its probably better to stick to a center channel and not have to trick anything.

Right now, I think the biggest question is the one I asked above...I'll re-quote from above as I think that once I decide on one of these 4...I'll be set

Do you think that if I stuck my current Definitive Pro Center 1000 there as a center channel for the PC setup it would work well with the rest of the speakers?

If so....how does that Definitive Mythos 7 center channel stack up to the Definitive Pro Center 1000? Maybe it would be better to go ahead and get that Mythos 7 center channel you linked and put that in my living room set...then take the center channel that is there and put it on the PC with the other speakers you mentioned.

How does the entire Emotiva XRM 41, Bic F12 Sub, and possibly Definitive Pro Center 1000 setup stack up again the other 3 sets in our discussion? It sounds like I've got 4 "package" choices (not including the receivers which I think we've got nailed down now).

1) "Custom" set of Emotiva XRM 41, Bic F12 Sub, possibly Definitive Pro Center 1000 (With the idea of snagging that from my living room and replacing it with the Mythos 7)
2) Pioneer Set
3) Martin Logan MLT-2
4) Energy Take 5.1 Classic

I'm trying to figure how those will stack up against each other for my purposes or how the 'rate' against each other to ears more skilled than mine. I guess on the "Simple" scale....choices 2, 3, & 4 are simples as they are "Home theater in a box". I'm guessing you'll say that set #1 that is "Custom" is a better setup....I'm just trying to understand and get an idea of how they'll compare.

 

[Procyon12]

the Mythos 7 is a very good center channel, but you can do better for the price if it doesnt have to be so slim.

if i were you i would temporarily use the pro 1000 at the PC. if you still find it weak at a much shorter listening distance, than look into something else (maybe aperion 4c

if it works out fine at the PC, then we can find something for your living room.

as far as your second question...
everything we have listed is going to be better than the klipsch 5.1.
the packages sets are going to be somewhat better at lower volumes and much better at high volumes.

the second more expensive option would obliterate it.

 

[1Wolf]

the Mythos 7 is a very good center channel, but you can do better for the price if it doesnt have to be so slim.

if i were you i would temporarily use the pro 1000 at the PC. if you still find it weak at a much shorter listening distance, than look into something else (maybe aperion 4c
if it works out fine at the PC, then we can find something for your living room.

The center channel for the home theater doesn't have to be quite so slim. For the home theater, the center channel can be an absolute maximum of 6" tall (Above 5" tall it starts to cover the bottom of the screen...It looks like I can go up to about 6"..maybe a bit more). It can be as wide as I want as there is plenty of room width-wise. It can be about 8 inches deep...give or take. I might be able to make a bit more depth-room if I need to by scooting the TV back a bit on its stand.

The wife doens't mind me snagging the pro 1000 from the home theater for my PC as long as I replace it with something way better. She says that she felt the center channel on the home theater was weak for a long time...and also felt that sometimes dialogue was difficult to understand...and that she was 'missing sound' from it. So she's cool with taking the Pro 1000 and replacing it with something way better. However, she doesn't want me to take it to try it out.

So I guess its an all or none proposition. What do you think? Go with the Mythos 7 for the Home theater? Do you have a better center channel for the home theater in that price range to recommend?

More importantly, by your best guess...do you think the Pro 1000 will work out for my PC sound setup?

Just as a note...I usually don't go crazy and blast the 5.1 PC sound. I certainly don't play it as loud as the home theater.

What do you think?

as far as your second question...
everything we have listed is going to be better than the klipsch 5.1.
the packages sets are going to be somewhat better at lower volumes and much better at high volumes.

the second more expensive option would obliterate it.

My apologies...but I don't quite follow. Could you rephrase that? I understand the first part...that everything you have recommended is going to be better than my current setup. Its the next sentences I'm not quite clear on...

Are you saying that any of the "Home Theater all-in-one packages" that we've discussed (i.e. the Pioneer set, the Martin Logan MLT-2, and the Energy Take 5.1) will be only somewhat better than my current setup at lower volume....but at high volumes any of those packages will be much better....

and that the "custom" option (Emotiva XRM 41, Bic F12 Sub, possibly Definitive Pro Center 1000) will absolutely obliterate it.

Does it sound like I'm understanding you correctly or did I misunderstand?

 

[SithSolo1]

Are you saying that any of the "Home Theater all-in-one packages" that we've discussed (i.e. the Pioneer set, the Martin Logan MLT-2, and the Energy Take 5.1) will be only somewhat better than my current setup at lower volume....but at high volumes any of those packages will be much better....

and that the "custom" option (Emotiva XRM 41, Bic F12 Sub, possibly Definitive Pro Center 1000) will absolutely obliterate it.

Does it sound like I'm understanding you correctly or did I misunderstand?

Yeah I had to read it a few times but I'm pretty sure thats what he meant.

 

[1Wolf]

Thanks

So what are the thoughts on the center channel...

Should I swap the Definitive ProCenter 1000 from my Home Theater to become the center channel for my PC Audio setup? Will that work out well with the custom PC audio setup previously discussed (i.e. Emotiva XRM 41's for Fronts and rears, Bic F12 Sub, Definitive Pro Center 1000 from my home theater)?

What do you think I should replace the center channel on my Home Theater with? Mythos7? I can't really go more than about 6 inches tall, and its got to be a good amount better than the ProCenter 1000 I have there now to get wife approval.

 

[Procyon12]

This is the matching Center for the 7006's

http://www.amazon.com/Definitive-Technology-Speaker-Single-Black/dp/B000TD8XCU


its always good for the front 3 speakers to be matched to each other, so that when the sound pans, it has the same timbre.

for that reason, i might even suggest buying another set of the emotiva XRM-4.1's and turning one of them on the side to be used as a center channel, and make a 6.1 if you can fit it, i didnt suggest it originally, but if you can fit 5.5" high.

but if you replace your HT center, then you already have a spare center channel in the def tech pro center 1000, so maybe just leave it.

 

[1Wolf]

but if you replace your HT center, then you already have a spare center channel in the def tech pro center 1000, so maybe just leave it.

Are you saying that I should just leave the Def Tech Pro Center 1000 in my home theater and not replace it...and instead find something else for the PC Audio center channel....

Or are you saying that I should indeed replace the Def Tech Pro Center 1000 in my home theater with the Def Tech C/L/R 2002 you posted...and then move the Def Tech Pro Center 1000 to become the center channel for my PC Audio?

 

[Procyon12]

Are you saying that I should just leave the Def Tech Pro Center 1000 in my home theater and not replace it...and instead find something else for the PC Audio center channel....

Or are you saying that I should indeed replace the Def Tech Pro Center 1000 in my home theater with the Def Tech C/L/R 2002 you posted...and then move the Def Tech Pro Center 1000 to become the center channel for my PC Audio?

Well, my original suggestion was to just 'borrow' the Pro Center 1000 to test if you think you really need a center channel at the PC, and if you think you do, then buy a center channel for the PC.

If you are commited to the center channel at the PC, with complete disregard to your Living Room setup, my suggestion is to get another set of emotiva's and place one horizontal for the center channel (or maybe mount it vertical above the monitor)

But, a solution exists, that, in the case that you would definetly be replacing the center channel in your living room, You've got a spare center channel and you can use it at the PC.

Baically, im trying to say that matching front 3 speakers are important, but im being cognizant of your wallet.
does that make more sense ?

 

[1Wolf]

Thanks Procyon, that makes perfect sense now.

I'm pretty sure that I want to get a center channel for the PC Audio, and I'm also pretty sure that I don't want to buy an extra Emotiva set to lay one on its side and go 6.1.

1) Is it a big deal to use the ProCenter 1000 with the Emotiva Fronts? Will there be a noticeable decrease in sound quality, immersion, and enjoyment? Or is this a loss that only an expert ear could hear? If the system would just be absolutely awesome either way, and I probably wouldn't be noticing any 'badness'...then this is the route I'll likely go. The custom setup you mentioned with the ProCenter 1000...then replace my home theater center channel with the one you linked to above.

2) If I decide to just leave my home theater alone, and leave the ProCenter 1000 where it is in my home theater, does Emotiva make a center channel? Or is my only choice to lay one on its side?

3) My video card is an GTX 690. It doesn't have an HDMI Out. Its got 3 DVI out's...and 1 Mini-DisplayPort out. However, on my motherboard (ASUS P8Z77-V Deluxe) there is an HDMI out, a DisplayPort, and an S/PDIF Optical out.

How will I hook it up to the AVR?

4) Last question is completely unrelated and for my wife. My wife also has a Klipsch Pro Media 5.1 setup. She likes those speakers fine for the games she plays....but the rear channels get in her way and she'd rather just have a 2.1. She was shopping online and she said she read really good reviews on the Corsair Series SP2500 2.1 setup. She asked if that was better than what she has and unfortunately I just don't know the answer. What do you think of that setup? Or is the Klipsch setup she already has...better...and I should just remove the rear channels and turn it into a 2.1 setup?

 

[Procyon12]

Thanks Procyon, that makes perfect sense now.

I'm pretty sure that I want to get a center channel for the PC Audio, and I'm also pretty sure that I don't want to buy an extra Emotiva set to lay one on its side and go 6.1.

1) Is it a big deal to use the ProCenter 1000 with the Emotiva Fronts? Will there be a noticeable decrease in sound quality, immersion, and enjoyment? Or is this a loss that only an expert ear could hear? If the system would just be absolutely awesome either way, and I probably wouldn't be noticing any 'badness'...then this is the route I'll likely go. The custom setup you mentioned with the ProCenter 1000...then replace my home theater center channel with the one you linked to above.

no, its not that bad. here's how it works. every speaker driver has its own sonic signature. it has nothing to do with how good or bad the speaker is, but its slight differences in the timbre of the sound. the reason is, as sound pans from side to side, it shouldnt sound like its moving between different speakers. it should be uniform. alot of people dont timbre match and its..fine, but not ideal. at the least the tweeter and midrange should be the same driver.

one thing is that i would say, dont mix different tweeter technologies. ie, i woudnt mix in a horn with a ribbon or an electrostatic. with all your speakers using 1" dome tweeters, it shoudnt be bad. (although the def techs use a metal dome over soft dome like the others, what i might do is tune down the treble a bit for the center channel in the receiver setup)

in my home theater i dont and i find everything to be fine. sure id like to, but its just not possible because my main L and R i purchased high end speakers and they were made in 1994 and there is no matching center channel, so i have to use a different one.

2) If I decide to just leave my home theater alone, and leave the ProCenter 1000 where it is in my home theater, does Emotiva make a center channel? Or is my only choice to lay one on its side?

emotiva makes a center channel in a higher end line than the 4.1s. its bigger than the speakers you are getting:
http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/speakers/products/xrc52
it would still not be a perfect match, but it would be better, but its quite large

My second choice to the emotivas would have been the aperion 4 series:
getting 4 of these:
http://www.aperionaudio.com/product/Intimus-4B-Satellite-Speaker,113,90,261.aspx
and this is the matching center:
http://www.aperionaudio.com/product/Intimus-4C-Center-Channel-Speaker,114,90,263.aspx

the 4B are roughly going to be equal in quality to the emotiva's but i didnt suggest them at first because the 4B are $220/pr vs. $180.

if you want to go with a horizontal center, i would do that over the emotiva's larger center.

3) My video card is an GTX 690. It doesn't have an HDMI Out. Its got 3 DVI out's...and 1 Mini-DisplayPort out. However, on my motherboard (ASUS P8Z77-V Deluxe) there is an HDMI out, a DisplayPort, and an S/PDIF Optical out.

How will I hook it up to the AVR?

which 690 do you have? the 690 should support HDMI through either the DP or DVI. it may have come with the adapter.

when the graphics card senses this adapter, it will technically switch from sending a DP signal, to send an HDMI signal.

4) Last question is completely unrelated and for my wife. My wife also has a Klipsch Pro Media 5.1 setup. She likes those speakers fine for the games she plays....but the rear channels get in her way and she'd rather just have a 2.1. She was shopping online and she said she read really good reviews on the Corsair Series SP2500 2.1 setup. She asked if that was better than what she has and unfortunately I just don't know the answer. What do you think of that setup? Or is the Klipsch setup she already has...better...and I should just remove the rear channels and turn it into a 2.1 setup?

if you were starting from scratch i would say there are some better options for $200 than the corsair, but also remember the klipsch pro media 2.1's are $150 and still highy regarded at that price point. just remove the rear speakers.

 

[1Wolf]

So I've read through this entire thread, and distilled it all down to 4 choices. Of the 4 choices listed below, its looking like one of the top two are going to be the way to go.

Here are my choices...

(Note, the prices below don't necessarily reflect the best price...just a ballpark based on the figures discussed so far).

1) 2 Sets of Emotiva XRM-41 (Fronts and Rears) for $180 per set. BIC America F12 Subwoofer for $200. Move my Home theater Def Tech ProCenter 1000 to become the center channel for my PC and replace my Home Theater center with the correct Def Tech C/L/R 2002 for $350. Denon AVR-1612 for $285. Total $1195 (Total is a bit misleading because it also includes a new center channel for my Home Theater which is a bonus!).

2) 2 Sets of Asperion Intimus 4B (Fronts and Rears) for $220 per set. BIC America F12 Subwoofer for $200. Asperion Intimus 4C Center Channel for $130. Denon AVR-1612 for $285. Total $1055.

3) Pioneer SP-PK21BS Set for $400 and Denon AVR-1612 for $685.

4) Martin Logan MLT-2 Set for $400 and Denon AVR-1612 for $685.

So....if you were in my shoes and putting together the PC audio system we've been discussing, had my Home Theater system described above, what would you choose above and why? What would be your 2nd choice? How much better is your first choice from your second choice?

It sounds like we've ruled out the Energy Take 5.1 set so I've left that one out.
I've decided I definitely want a center channel on the PC.
I've decided I don't want to pick up an extra set of Emotiva and lay one on its side for a Center channel (Or mount it above the monitor) so I've left that option out.
I don't think I have the 6 1/2" of heigh required for the Emotiva XRC-5.2 center channel so I've left that option out.
Once the choice above is decide, I may end up pushing my budget just a smidge to swap out the AVR-1612 for the 1613 or 1713.

 

[Procyon12]

to me, i would decide how much of an audiophile i am. my PC setup cost me around $900 and thats with some used gear. just for a 2.1. but im a big time audiophile, and i listen to ALOT of music at my PC. my DAC cost me $350 alone.

the Martin logans would be great and i bet alot of people wont see much improvement to the emotiva or aperion setup. but i would. Music also makes it much easier to pick good from great, and as i listen to much music, i decided to go higher end.

to me it would be martin logans vs. emotivas + new center for tv.

the pioneer center is 8" high, by the way.

 

[1Wolf]

to me, i would decide how much of an audiophile i am. my PC setup cost me around $900 and thats with some used gear. just for a 2.1. but im a big time audiophile, and i listen to ALOT of music at my PC. my DAC cost me $350 alone.

the Martin logans would be great and i bet alot of people wont see much improvement to the emotiva or aperion setup. but i would. Music also makes it much easier to pick good from great, and as i listen to much music, i decided to go higher end.

I wouldn't call myself an audiophile. Far from it. But I do love quality sound and I know something nice when I hear it.

As far as my own PC goes, once in a while I listen to music on it...once in a while I'll watch a movie on it....but the vast majority of it is gaming (Well...that....and work...but the gaming part is much more fun to talk about ).

to me it would be martin logans vs. emotivas + new center for tv.

the pioneer center is 8" high, by the way.

Thanks Procyon. Looks like I've got my set then. I've been discussing this with the wife as I followed along in this forum thread and so the decision rests on whether or not she wants to upgrade the center channel of the home theater.

If she says "Yup...upgrade the center channel" then I'll snag the ProCenter 1000 for my PC and go with the Emotiva setup.

If she says "Nah....leave the Home Theater alone and just get something for your PC" then I'll go with the Martin Logan's.

I think that just leaves the question of sound cards and headsets? For my uses...should I pick up a sound card...what do you think...Yay or nay? If yay, what card? (My motherboard is an ASUS P8Z77-V Deluxe).

And as far as headsets for gaming go...maybe I should leave that for a separate thread as its my understanding that its a huge topic all unto itself. I'll throw it out there though just to get your opinions:

Most of the time when I game...I use my speakers. There are a few games that I wear a headset for. Usually games that I use TrackIR with because it mounts to the headset, or games where I do alot of voice communications and I don't want certain "exclamations" floating through the house at full volume.

For a headset...excellent surround, separation of sounds, and position effects are really important to me. If I'm in a game, flying in tight formation, and there is an aircraft right at my 8 o'clock....I want to hear him right at my 8 o'clock. The microphone is also very important so I can talk to my squad-mates clearly.

I'm not quite sure what to do or what to look at with regards to headsets because this audio system you've helped me put together is quite a bit different from anything I'm used to. Right now...I've got two different headsets I've used. A Turtle Beach EarForce set that actually "splices" my 5.1 speaker wires and plugs in just like a 5.1 system. It has FL, FR, RL, RR, Center, and Sub plugs on the headset...and it actually does a pretty good job of positional sound. Its comfy...supports my TrackIR sensor...and has a good microphone. The other headset I have is a Logitech G35 USB headset (one of those that acts like its own sound card). That one had really great positional sound, and a great mic....but it was really buggy, caused me problems in games, and the ear pads made my ears sweat...lol.

With this new audio setup...I may or may not have a sound card. So I'm not sure what to get for a headset? Should I pick up something like a Razer Tiamat 7.1 that gets good reviews? I'm kind of confused on what I should get or how it would hook up.

 

[1Wolf]

A further question with regards to the subwoofer...

I decided to go with the previously discussed Emotiva + BIC subwoofer and the Definitive Center Channel from my Home Theater (Which got upgraded).

I've placed the orders and recently received the subwoofer in the mail. Unfortunately, while I did think to make sure that the Emotiva bookshelf speakers would fit properly in the desk area alotted to them, I didn't think to measure the subwoofer. The BIC F12 subwoofer is quite a bit larger than I had envisioned. Its pretty big, bigger even than the sub from my home theater. I was thinking it would have been a smidge smaller.

I'm sure that with a little adjusting, I can find a good home for it in the room but was wondering if there was another comparable sub you might recommend to work with the previously discussed Emotiva/Definitive setup that was maybe just a smidge smaller. It doesn't have to be alot smaller...just a smidge.

The one I have now is around 13.5" wide and 15" deep (I forgot to measure the height...but its not too tall). The BIC is around 15" wide, 17" deep and much much taller (again, I didn't measure the height but its probably around 17" tall).

I may just find a home for it and stick with it, but I was curious what my options were.

 

[Zenshi]

Well if you are looking for a sub with a width of 13.5", it will be hard to find one with a 12" driver in it like the F-12. This leaves little remaining dimensions for the cabinet to get adequate support. You may be able to find one but I think the search will be difficult.

You can look for a 10" driver sub that often have higher but narrower cabinets. I would think something like the STF-2 or the sub from SVS (forgot the model number and too lazy to look) would be good for this but it is much more expensive than the F-12. One possibility is the BIC Venturi

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=303-430

I have never heard or know much about the Venturi but BIC usually makes nice subs for the money. Much will depend on how much volume of a listening area you want to cover. My sub is right near me and I listen near field to maybe 3' - 4' away so I don't need much more than the STF-1.