Need help with build for chess.

[geok1ng]

. I have decided to come back to competitive chess after a 10y break. My plan is to play the next Continental champ. Coming 18-26 October.

Usually i do not found my current rig lacking in CPU power, but for chess studying it would really help to have a (much) faster machine.

Just to gave non-chess players a reference:
my rig= 2500k@ 4GHz does around 9k Nodes/s,
an OC 8350/3770k/4770k would do around 11k N/s
and a 24 cores 2Ghz Opteron 4xxx server around 22k N/s.

the program i train with can use up to 32 cores/ threads and 256GB of RAM but the speed gains above 64GB are limited and 16GB-64GB is the sweet spot in price/performance.

Intel may launch a new EE CPU with 8 cores/16 threads, but it will come with a new chipset X99 and DDR4, so a desktop build will probably be :
EE CPU- USD 1000
X99 mobo 400
16GB DDR4 200 ( ??)

The total cost of a brand new X99 build can easily reach north of the $2k mark including cooling, case and storage.

So i ask: is there an alternative using server hardware that can give me 15k+ N/s for less than $2k? I can use UDIMMs for lower costs, but if the mobo needs more than a desktop Corsair 850w i must include the server PSU costs.

On the other extreme, if the budget goes up to USD 4k: given the software limits of 32 threads and 256GB, what would be the "minimum" build and the dream machine?

 

[Cube]

if you are talking about deep fritz14,,,

my core i73970x cpu system I did last year for 3d rendering and game work in maya/3d max eats though it pretty good already....but I dont really play the game the much. I just ran it for system test against cpus.

it has 64gb ram and it never uses all of it only rendering poster size images has come close or using a ramdisk.


if you want to make it go faster you can buy server or workstation parts right now if you want to spend.

i have dual cpu machine running autodesk backburner .


http://www.amazon.com/Supermicro-LG...9256150&sr=1-4&keywords=Motherboard+Dual+Xeon


you will need server or workstation parts to get anywhere near the 32 cores and more than one cpu.for a long time anyway. and you can have 8 cores right now with a xenon cpu. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Xeon_microprocessors

2 slightly slower cpus will be faster than 1 8 core cpu in multithread apps. if you have 2 6 core xenon it will do multcore faster than the 1 8core cpu. if you have 2 8 core then it would be better than that.

]


http://www.cpubenchmark.net/multi_cpu.html


most xenon cpu cost more anyway so you will end up having to get a slower clock speed xenon cpu unless you want to spend more money.

 

[geok1ng]

According to this review the best price x performance "new" server CPU right now is the Opteron 6376 (16 integer cores @ 2.3GHz) for $710.

Personally i would go with the " old" Opteron 6272 for $420

A dual socket G34 mobo costs $400 which would leave me with $780 for memo, PSU and case.

While a single 16-cores Opteron would be slower than the upcoming Haswell-E EE CPU, a 32-cores Opteron server would have similar costs but better performance. Too bad i can not find a used on ebay

Update, just found this. too bad USD 990 shipping is a bit out of budget...

 

[geok1ng]

if you are talking about deep fritz14,,,

NOPE. Deep Fritz only maxes out at 8 cores.
I use Houdini
Houdini 4 engine. The engine can support up to 32 processor cores and 256 GB of hash memory

The real catch is that Chessbase interface allows me to use my server at home to analyse on my puny laptop during a trip. Such engine cloud feature really separates Houdini from Fritz. Unfortunately the "Lets check" server stores all analysis which is a reason why most of my research and training is done offline. Nothing worst than investing a whole night of electricity studying a position 30-ply deep only to handle the best move free to all chess.com subscribers

Today the best server to rent on cloud engine.com is a dual xeon 2690 ( [email protected]) pumping just 18kN/s. even an old and slow dual 16 cores Interlagos build would trounce such setup for a fraction of the cost. And i can always put my machine for rental there as well

There is a chess engine that can use 64 x86 cores, Komodo. But Komodo is, IMO, too slow and requires too much brute force. For example, in this game Houdini finds the "best" move after ply-24, but Komodo searches until ply-27 and do not comes to the same conclusion. For a quad socket g34 mobo with 4x16 cores opterons komodo would be a better engine, but then we are talking about dual PSUs and 50dB+ fan noise, not to mention 24x7 air conditioning

The "top" chess engine is stockfish, with up to 128 cores and a very fast ply-digging time. With Xeons this program can really shine, but it is outside the topic and most chess players budgets to even consider 128 cores or threads.

 

[PornoSatan]

Your current system is fine IMO. Going the Topalov route (ie Topalov vs Anand World Chess Championship) might make you feel better but it will have very little practical effect.

 

[geok1ng]

Your current system is fine IMO. Going the Topalov route (ie Topalov vs Anand World Chess Championship) might make you feel better but it will have very little practical effect.

Time is a commodity that i value a lot while studying chess. having in 1 minute the analysis that take 4 min to pump out means that i can study 4 times more positions in each training session.

After much googling i found specint 2006 , data base of server and desktop systems benchmarks. There is one integer benchmark that is relevant for my build: 458.sjeng chess benchmark.

Browsing results changed my opinion and plans a lot:

2500k: 482s to complete sjeng, base rate 100

dual opterons 6272 1469s, rate 264

...so upgrading from a 4 cores 2500k to a 16 cores 6272 i can expect around 32% better performance per chip but around 2.6x better total performance. That is a lot less than i first estimated. but still an amazing bang for the buck

Dual opterons 6376 1205s, rate 324. That's 61% faster than a 2500k chip vs chip but i get 3.2 x better results on the whole machine..

Core i7 4960 686s, rate 212. twice as fast as a 2500k for this task. One can presume that the upcoming i7 5960 can be 3x faster than my 2500k and a valid alternative to dual opteron 32 cores builds.

 

[rhansen5_99]

If you were wanting to go down the ebay road you could always go dual socket 2011
there is an intel board for $224 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Intel-S2600...40003?pt=US_Server_Boards&hash=item51bd1b6483
Looks like ssi-eb form factor which will fit in a cosmos 2 from coole rmaster
http://www.cmstore-usa.com/cooler-m...uminum-ultra-tower-computer-case-refurbished/
$209
And you could go with two of these http://www.ebay.com/itm/Intel-XEON-...-LV-/281330611586?pt=CPUs&hash=item41809c7582
Intel XEON E5-2648L 8-Core 1.8GHz
$500
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ATP-64GB-16...0789574?pt=US_Memory_RAM_&hash=item43c957e546
$259 64gb ram

Add a server quality powersupply and a video card and you are set for $1200 ish
Just be sure to get an os that supports 64gb like Server 2012 enterprise

I hope this helps and you might want to double check motherboard fits that case and ram is supported.

I personally have a server with 2 of the E5 2687w's but you are talking about 5k just in processors

 

[geok1ng]

If you were wanting to go down the ebay road you could always go dual socket 2011

TYVM for the hints on LGA 2011 ebay stuff. There are too many pitfalls when shopping Xeons on ebay, since almost all of the so called bargains are silicon revision early than C0, incompatible with dual socket mobos. Finding a couple of 8c16Ht Xeon of C0+ revision is f. awesome.
The price x performance of the parts you listed is amazing: 2x 1.8Ghz 8-core Xeons for less than USD500!! Still i would rather wait for the EE Haswell-E, because if it hits 4.5-5Ghz OC it would perform more or less on par with the dual slow Xeons for chess, but better single-thread performance.

 

[ozb]

I would strongly suggest you look at quad-G34 systems.
You can usually get a Supermicro H8QGI for around $700-800, with four CPU sockets and 32 DIMM slots. Opteron 8-core 6128's are very cheap, or you can upgrade to a higher model.
There is even one auction now going on for a combo with 4*12C CPUs, may end up a very good deal.

sjeng benchmark ratios:
4*6128: 383
4*6176: 599
4*6272: 525
4*6376: 647

You can also look at Dell R815, C6145 and HP DL585G7, though those tend to be much more expensive.

Personally I wouldn't necessary pay for anything better than the 6176, which runs about $200 for a non-ES unit on ebay.
Good luck!

 

[m heisty]

I would strongly suggest you look at quad-G34 systems.
You can usually get a Supermicro H8QGI for around $700-800, with four CPU sockets and 32 DIMM slots. Opteron 8-core 6128's are very cheap, or you can upgrade to a higher model.
There is even one auction now going on for a combo with 4*12C CPUs, may end up a very good deal.

sjeng benchmark ratios:
4*6128: 383
4*6176: 599
4*6272: 525
4*6376: 647

You can also look at Dell R815, C6145 and HP DL585G7, though those tend to be much more expensive.

Personally I wouldn't necessary pay for anything better than the 6176, which runs about $200 for a non-ES unit on ebay.
Good luck!

I was going to link to that same ebay auction. I was looking at it yesterday for a build for a home/small business server.

 

[schizrade]

I would say get the fastest multicore CPU you can find. Lots of cores is great, but if they run at half the speed it evens out, but the cost for multi socket is higher.

 

[geok1ng]

I would strongly suggest you look at quad-G34 systems.

sjeng benchmark ratios:
4*6128: 383
4*6176: 599
4*6272: 525
4*6376: 647

Personally I wouldn't necessary pay for anything better than the 6176, which runs about $200 for a non-ES unit on ebay.

I did take a look at quad G34 systems, but i confess that the benchmarks of quad 6176s went under my radar. Amdahl's law works its evil against the 16-cores parts, and this 2.3Ghz 12c 6176 looks impressive on benchmarks. But the AT review was not so bright:

The Opteron 6176 looks a bit ridiculous as it delivers only 4% more performance at 30% higher power and 20% higher prices.

So i went to google and searched for alternatives:
sjeng bench
4x6172 544
4x6174 585
4x6136 443
.. I am noticing that SPECint2006 does not yeld consistent results if you compare benchmarks from one year to another, so i will try to remake the sjeng charts using same year/quarter benchs, whenever possible.

Both 6172 and 6174 hover $125-165 price points and i do agree that right now they are true competition against Xeons and even Haswell-E for a low cost chess machine. As long as one don't mind netbook-like single-thread performance and having to use linux or windows server as OS. I agree with AT when the review concluded:

The most interesting parts that AMD offers are the dodeca-core 6174 (2.2GHz), the octal-core 6136 (2.4GHz) and the octal-core low power 6128 (2.0GHz).

 

[geok1ng]

Turns out there is already a w[H]ole subculture dedicated to the quad 6174 builds:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1212613/...t-to-finish-along-with-ppd-benchmarks-gallery

http://www.overclock.net/t/1211532/build-log-4p-amd-opteron-6174s-supermicro-h8qgl-if-folding-rig

These link teached me a few tricks:
- Opterons 6174 are mild Overclockers, expect to run all 4 sockets at 2.36Ghz
-You can use cheap Hyper212+ to cool these CPUs
-It is OK to use CAS8 DDR3 1600 desktop RAM
-- There is an EPS-12V 8-pin Y-splitter so a regular PSU is enough.

Since a chess machine is not used 24x7 the higher electricity cost of a quad opteron build is mitigated by the much lower BOM cost when compared to a Xeon build of similar performance.

 

[geok1ng]

I may have finally solved the question of the better CPU for chess.
4x6180 675

This is a massive upgrade vs the meager 585 that 4x6174 output, for more or less the same power draw. It is even faster than the 16-core 6376 and equal to the 6378. price wise used 6180s are on occasion found south of $160, and i can build and rest, because it is unlikely that we gonna see a better CPU for chess in this platform.

 

[geok1ng]

the plot thickens. there are ES 62xx/63xx CPUs with unlocked multipliers and Supermicro mobos can be flashed with modified BIOS for clk OC, which kind of negates the reasons why i choosed 6180s initially.

Besides i am not able to prove that it is indeed possible to connect a Linux chess engine to a chessbase windows machine, which would trow away any 4p build plans. I really need to dive deeper on the G34 subculture and discover just how far can a 2p/4p build with ES CPU go. 2p@3GHz with IL/AD 16-cores may turn out better than my original 12c MC plan.

 

[Tim_H]

hey, I have a couple quad G34 systems at home and my suggestion would be the 6180's with a Supermicro H8QGL. I'm guessing that you've found the distributed computing sub forum when you're referring to the flashed bios. ES chips aren't required if you flash the bios, if you don't want to flash the bios and you want to overclock the ES chips are the way to go.

 

[Parja]

hey, I have a couple quad G34 systems at home and my suggestion would be the 6180's with a Supermicro H8QGL. I'm guessing that you've found the distributed computing sub forum when you're referring to the flashed bios. ES chips aren't required if you flash the bios, if you don't want to flash the bios and you want to overclock the ES chips are the way to go.

Yeah, definitely check out the Distributed Computing forum. Those guys are the masters of setting up and tweaking quad G34 systems.

 

[Skripka]

the plot thickens. there are ES 62xx/63xx CPUs with unlocked multipliers and Supermicro mobos can be flashed with modified BIOS for clk OC, which kind of negates the reasons why i choosed 6180s initially.

Besides i am not able to prove that it is indeed possible to connect a Linux chess engine to a chessbase windows machine, which would trow away any 4p build plans. I really need to dive deeper on the G34 subculture and discover just how far can a 2p/4p build with ES CPU go. 2p@3GHz with IL/AD 16-cores may turn out better than my original 12c MC plan.

Yeah, definitely check out the Distributed Computing forum. Those guys are the masters of setting up and tweaking quad G34 systems.

Yup...those modified BIOSes...guess where they were written and by whom.

I'll give you a second hint. OCN's movement to 4P for folding was inspired by the huge 4P armada that Team 33 here at [H] had amassed.

 

[geok1ng]

Well tyvm for dropping by, there are a few reasons i insist in keeping the debate here and not move it to DC subforum:

- A chess system emphasizes integer performance over floating point. Clock for clock a quad 62xx is about 25% more ppd than a 61xx in F@H. But in sjeng benchmark they are more less equal, since more cores do not compensate less IPC. What is good for F@H is not necessarily good for chess.

-A F@H build is designed to run 24x7, usually in houses with only 110vAC. A chess system is not used 24x7, more like in 1h long training sessions, and i have access to 220vAC. 62xx ES (Extra Sexy) chips are not that valuable for F@H due to terrible ppd/w but can be considered seriously to a chess machine. Also 2p 62xx ES do not make an attractive F@H build, but are a very interesting project for chess: such systems OC around 3.2-3.7GHz, which is decent single thread performance, and can run native Windows , which would simplify software setup immensely. I can connect 3 windows chess engines from any PC, but i still do not solved the issues with connecting a single engine under Linux to a Windows machine.

In order of desirability for chess:
61xx ES chips- these are extremely rare- Unlocked multiplier + low power= win-win
6180s- these are the highest multipliers MC chips, and also the best for clk OC on supermicro mobos. But they only OC on 4p mobos.
62xx ES- can be OC on 2p mobos, 4p builds draw 850-1050w
63xx ES- they are surfacing on ebay, but north of $300, where they compete with 4650 Xeons.
6168s in 4p OC mobo- draw about [email protected], cooler than stock 6180s.

As soon as tear completes the BIOS hack for 6200/6300 CPUs the above order will change but until then, 61xx>63xx>62xx for chess.

To make matters worst, there are rumors that in 3 weeks at Computex Intel will demo not a mere Haswell-E 8 cores, but a Haswell-EP/EX system with up to 18 unlocked cores. Such an upgrade path for future i7 5960X buyers would made me rethink the g34 plans.

 

[Skripka]

Well tyvm for dropping by, there are a few reasons i insist in keeping the debate here and not move it to DC subforum:

- A chess system emphasizes integer performance over floating point. Clock for clock a quad 62xx is about 25% more ppd than a 61xx in F@H. But in sjeng benchmark they are more less equal, since more cores do not compensate less IPC. What is good for F@H is not necessarily good for chess.

-A F@H build is designed to run 24x7, usually in houses with only 110vAC. A chess system is not used 24x7, more like in 1h long training sessions, and i have access to 220vAC. 62xx ES (Extra Sexy) chips are not that valuable for F@H due to terrible ppd/w but can be considered seriously to a chess machine. Also 2p 62xx ES do not make an attractive F@H build, but are a very interesting project for chess: such systems OC around 3.2-3.7GHz, which is decent single thread performance, and can run native Windows , which would simplify software setup immensely. I can connect 3 windows chess engines from any PC, but i still do not solved the issues with connecting a single engine under Linux to a Windows machine.

In order of desirability for chess:
61xx ES chips- these are extremely rare- Unlocked multiplier + low power= win-win
6180s- these are the highest multipliers MC chips, and also the best for clk OC on supermicro mobos. But they only OC on 4p mobos.
62xx ES- can be OC on 2p mobos, 4p builds draw 850-1050w
63xx ES- they are surfacing on ebay, but north of $300, where they compete with 4650 Xeons.
6168s in 4p OC mobo- draw about [email protected], cooler than stock 6180s.

As soon as tear completes the BIOS hack for 6200/6300 CPUs the above order will change but until then, 61xx>63xx>62xx for chess.

To make matters worst, there are rumors that in 3 weeks at Computex Intel will demo not a mere Haswell-E 8 cores, but a Haswell-EP/EX system with up to 18 unlocked cores. Such an upgrade path for future i7 5960X buyers would made me rethink the g34 plans.

So what? TBH, most of the 2P, 4P, and 4P+ owners on [H] have ceased folding and have directed their resources at BOINC crunching due to disputes with Stanford. We were talking about those rumors about "18 core" chips in [H]ardfolding IRC this morning. The rumors are a joke based on the current info and have no face value validity if you think about how Intel has been selling their Xeon chips for the last decade.

What is more, over the last year or two most G34 owners have moved to LGA 2011 Intel anyway. There's more multi-processor knowledge and experience over there than just about anywhere else on the net.

 

[geok1ng]

Fine then, i asked the moderator to move this thread there, if such a thing is even possible.

 

[wonderfield]

Just out of curiosity, are there any chess solvers (or whatever the correct terminology is) that can run off a Xeon Phi or an Adapteva Epiphany? Both can deliver pretty strong integer perf.

 

[geok1ng]

Chess engines do not use SIMDs like the ones in Xeon Phi, and x86 code on Xeon Phi run slower than on regular Xeons.

At the very least one would need specific Phi code to run such an engine. Some 30y ago there were ASICs running chess engines, but coders developed modern chess engines under x86 chips.

I am stuck between a rock and a hard place: 4p servers are a challenge on the hardware front and remotely using linux chess engines from a windows machine is even harder. But stock 2p servers are just a bit faster than the expected performance of an 8c Haswell-E. OCing 2p g34 under Windows require identical twins ES chips, which are hard to procure. i confess that 2 ES (Extra Sexy) Opterons are a formidable machine to run Windows natively, with decent single thread performance

 

[geok1ng]

I scrapping all G34 plans and going further back in time/tech.

4p Mobo size limited my choice of cases, and having to import both woutside the USPS package size limits skyrocketed costs after taxes.

So i found an old 2p 6c/12Ht system with overclocking capabilities: the revered EVGA SR-2 and a couple of Xeons 5640-90s. Even if the end OC is just 3.8GHz these benchmarks tell me that the EVGA SR-2 can beat dual Xeons E5 2689 @3.3GHz.

Now to remake the parts lists

 

[402blownstroker]

Supermicro 4P Xeon or Opteron boards fit nicely and work great with Mountain mod cases.

 

[jessegersenson]

A how-to guide for connecting a windows front-end user to a linux engine on a linux server is here:

http://komodochess.com/remote-engine.htm

I wrote it recently and have tested it. Basically you ssh

kN/s can be a deceptive guide to engine speed if you're using all of the cores to look at one position, as you'd be doing in chessbase (In aquarium you can make use of all the cores). You can get a lot of power from a highly overclocked 6 core Intel - given your budget that's what I'd go for.