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Need a new psu... I think.

D

Dallows

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jun 18, 2004
Messages
6,816
Okay, so my problem is this. As you can see in the sig I have a fortron 530w psu. From the beginning or about the beginning the 12v and 5v rails have never really been that stable. the 12 would be around 10.5 or 11 and the 5v would drop to 3-4. though the 5v only started dropping (or I noticed it dropping) recently. Most noticably last night after a good session of WoW I was online and just surfing the web. Every minute or so I would hear this electrical/energy sounding powerup and shutdown coming from my case. I don't really know what the source was as I didn't really investigate, it didn't sound like my hdd or any fans, but more of the psu trying to powerup for some reason. So my pc was acting all funy and was locking up and freezing for long periods of time. I checked the bios and saw the volts were low. I shut the system down for a bit and restarted it, and it took a lot longer than normal to boot up, hanging at the window loading screen. Finally getting into windows everything ran crazy slow at first. Finally got it back to normal and shut it down for the night. Checking it this morning I saw the volts were still a little low, more normal for the 5v rail but the 12v was still struggling near 10v-11v. The system ran okay but when I went into WoW I was getting lag in places I very got before, I was getting highly fluxuating framerate and lag where my ping was below 20ms. I'm thinking of just buying a new psu to solve this all as I'm pretty sure that's the problem. I just don't want the thing to die before I get another and be out of a pc for a few days. I've got my eye on this one

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817103459

but am I little curious about the rails. I will hopefully upgrade in the future to a dual core amd and a 7800GT or something. I want to be sure that will be able to handle everything nicely. I have a spare hdd that's not listed, it's a 200GB WD I use for backup. I'm going to run a few diagnostics on my system when I get home to make sure everything else is working fine. And I'm searching the net as I type this to see what the requirements are the for the 7800GT. Thanks for reading my long post and for posting any feedback.
 
AMD64 3500+ Newcastle
Asus A8V Deluxe Rev 2
1GB Corsair XMS LL 3200XLPT
EVGA GeForce 6800GT
Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS
530w Fortron psu
Windows XP SP2

3DMark05 4678
Click to expand...
The old Fortron 530W warhorse was designed for older systems that powered the CPU from the +5V rail.
Your modern system powers the CPU & the video card from the +12V rail(s).

According to nVidia your non-SLI system should have a min of +12V@26A.
The Enermax 420W is a little light for my taste, especially when its nVidia SLI Certified 535W big brother is only $79!

$79: http://www.gameve.com/gve/Store/ProductDetails.aspx?sku=PS-ENERMAX-535
 
Old? How old could it be, lol. Good price on that sli-cert'd psu though. Maybe I'll save up a little more. I'm a little confused about the whole 26A thing. Cause there's psu's like the one I picked out, the enermax, that have dual 12v rails that are rated at 18A. I guess it would be an individual thing then? I guess not because looking at the psu you suggested the rails are rated the same, so what's the difference? extra watts I don't need at all?
 
There were only two versions of the 530w available with anything near the 12v capacity needed for that rig (FSP550-60GL and FSP550-60GN), and we've never been able to get them in North America, unless you count the way overpriced SilenX version :(

The FSP530-60GNA we all know was the only one availible in North America and was designed for heavy 5v loads as David mentioned. That's what mine is powering, anyway. Overloading the 12v on it produces the exact symptoms you describe.
 
so hello new psu that doesn't suck. thanks guys. Should I stick with the enermax 420w I picked?
 
I understand your reasoning dave, but please explain to me how no difference in rails means a difference in performance.
 
Dallows said:
I understand your reasoning dave, but please explain to me how no difference in rails means a difference in performance.
Click to expand...

Since dave seems to be out.....there is a more to a quality PSU than simply rail ratings.

Burninggrave101 said:
Load Regulation: Sometimes called voltage load regulation. This specification refers to the ability of the power supply to control the output voltage level as the load on the power supply increases or decreases. The voltage of a DC power source tends to decrease as its load increases, and vice-versa. Better power supplies do a better job of smoothing out these variations. Load regulation is usually expressed as a "+/-" percentage value for each of the voltages the power supply delivers. 3% to 5% are typical; 1% is quite good. (The -5 V and -12 V signals usually are no better than +/- 5% even on very good units; there's no point bothering getting them better than that since they are low-current and mostly unused anyway.)

Line Regulation: The complement of load regulation, this parameter describes the ability of the power supply to control its output levels as the level of the AC input voltage varies from its minimum acceptable level to its maximum acceptable level. Again, a value for each output level is usually specified as a "+/-" percentage. +/- 1% to 2% is typical.

Ripple: Also sometimes called "AC Ripple" or "Periodic and Random Deviation (PARD)" or simply "Noise". The power supply of course produces DC outputs from AC input. However, the output isn't "pure" DC. There will be some AC components in each signal, some of which are conveyed through from the input signal, and some of which are picked up from the components in the power supply. Typically these values are very small, and most power supplies will keep them within the specification for the power supply form factor. Ripple values are usually given in terms of millivolts, peak-to-peak (mVp-p). "Peak-to peak" refers to measuring the AC voltage from its negative maximum to its positive maximum (see here for an illustration of what this means.) Lower numbers are better.

Transient Response: As shown in the diagram here, a switching power supply uses a closed feedback loop to allow measurements of the output of the supply to control the way the supply is operating. This is analogous to how a thermometer and thermostat work together to control the temperature of a house. As mentioned in the description of load regulation above, the output voltage of a signal varies as the load on it varies. In particular, when the load is drastically changed--either increased or decreased a great deal, suddenly--the voltage level may shift drastically. Such a sudden change is called a transient. If one of the voltages is under heavy load from several demanding components and suddenly all but one stops drawing current, the voltage to the remaining current may temporarily surge. This is called a voltage overshoot.

Efficiency: What percentage of the total energy supplied to the power supply is converted to usable form by the power supply and conveyed to the PC's components. Typical numbers for PC power supplies are 60% to 85%; the other 15% to 40% is wasted as heat. Clearly, the more efficient the power supply, the better! Not only will you save electricity, you will ensure that the power supply runs cooler at the same time, making the supply's components last longer and the system work better overall. At the same time, don't give too much credence to this parameter, especially if you are comparing two units that have similar numbers (and many do.) 71% efficiency vs. 73% efficiency doesn't really translate to much difference in the real world. Efficiency is probably more important for supplies that provide a lot of power, since the percentages equate to larger numbers.

nput Voltage Range: Acceptable range of input voltages. Since most power supplies can function on nominal 115 V or 230 V electricity, you will usually see two sets of numbers. For example: "85 to 135 V AC" and "170 to 270 V AC". The input range is not usually all that critical in determining the suitability of a power supply, because most utility power stays fairly close to the nominal level under normal circumstances. However, the minimum voltage level can have some impact on how well the power supply rides through brownouts.

Voltage Selection: If the power supply supports both 115 V and 230 V nominal voltage, does it automatically select between them, or is there a manual switch?

Frequency: Acceptable frequency of input power (50 Hz, 60 Hz, or 50 and 60 Hz). Alternately, a range of acceptable frequencies (for example, 48-62 Hz). Most power supplies can handle both nominal 50 Hz and 60 Hz input.

Power Factor: The power factor that the power supply presents as a load to the utility power line. Normal power supplies will be in the 60% to 70% range (0.6 to 0.7). Power-factor-corrected supplies will have a number like "0.99". Sometimes, the spec will just say "power factor corrected".
Click to expand...

Copy paste because I am a little short of time this morning. ......but i think you get the picture that there is a lot more to a quality unit than just the amp/watt rating.
 
of course there is more to a psu than watts and amps. but what I saying is it can't be that much better overall and the 12v rails are still rated at 18A, which is the same asthe 420w. and if you read the last paragraph of my first post I state I want to upgrade to a single 7800GT not a sli setup. You guys answered the questions except for the rail rating question. It seems kinda important considering both my cpu and vid card rely on it.
 
Dallows said:
of course there is more to a psu than watts and amps. but what I saying is it can't be that much better overall and the 12v rails are still rated at 18A, which is the same asthe 420w.
Click to expand...

It may or may not be. I would assume there would be no real difference but assumptions are dangerous. There have been cases where two supplies by the same company have had drastically different results even though they look the same on paper. Without a competant review of the 420w...dave is doing the conservative....and correct thing. Going with a supply that is nearly the same price point but is well established.

and if you read the last paragraph of my first post I state I want to upgrade to a single 7800GT not a sli setup. You guys answered the questions except for the rail rating question. It seems kinda important considering both my cpu and vid card rely on it.
Click to expand...

What is your exact question about the "rails"? Did you ever verify the problem with your current system with a DMM?
 
I'm postive the problem lies with the psu, there's no doubt about that. It was only a matter of time before it failed. This is the same dave that made the stickied thread about all the reccommended psu's. So I don't think he doesn't believe the enermax 420 isn't enough. I think he's just trying to point me in the right direction in terms of bang for my buck.

My question about the rails is this. I don't remember exactly but I think a single 7800GTX requires a 12v rail with a raiting of 26A. And BOTH the enermax 420 and his bigger SLI-CERTIFIED brother have the same 18A rated rails. So what's up with that?

And a question about the motherboard connector. I count 24pins. I can't remember if my mobo is 20 or 24 and don't feel like checking it. I may have counted the pins on the psu connector though. please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
The 7800 does not require 26A @ 12v all to itself though - if it did, I'd hate to see the cooling solution needed on it. Actual power draw is likely to be less than 8A, and it'll be on the 12v1 rail. It's a matter of making sure the PSU has enough 12v juice on both rails to be sure the CPU is powered too (from 12v2). That's why the recommendation is 26A - it doesn't necessarily have to have that much on any single 12v rail of a dual 12v unit. Good thing too - you won't find a dual unit with that kind of power unless you want to spend a fortune.

The FSP530-60GNA has a 20 pin ATX connector.
 
Dallows said:
I'm postive the problem lies with the psu, there's no doubt about that. It was only a matter of time before it failed. This is the same dave that made the stickied thread about all the reccommended psu's. So I don't think he doesn't believe the enermax 420 isn't enough. I think he's just trying to point me in the right direction in terms of bang for my buck.

My question about the rails is this. I don't remember exactly but I think a single 7800GTX requires a 12v rail with a raiting of 26A. And BOTH the enermax 420 and his bigger SLI-CERTIFIED brother have the same 18A rated rails. So what's up with that?
Click to expand...

Ripped shamelessly from jonnyGURU:

(14 * 12) + (16 * 12) = 336? What is this? NEW math?

You'll often find that the capabilities of the +12V rails combined almost never equal what is listed for each rail individually added together. This is because, although the two +12V rails are on separate transistors, they're still being fed by the same, single transformer and rectifier. So one rail might be able to pull off 168W if loaded up by itself, and the other might be able to pull off 192W if loaded up by itself, but the amount of juice that can even get to those transistors (safely) isn't more than 336W, so you simply CAN NOT fully load both rails to their maximum capabilities. And when I say "can not" load them, I mean load them without overloading them and staying within the tolerance of the rated rail. I mean, I put 16A loads on 14A rails all day long... that doesn't mean it's recommended. ;)
Click to expand...

http://www.slcentral.com/dual-12v-rail-psu-shootout/

The 12v2 is dedicated to the processor while 12v1 opowers everything else. At any rate the combined 12v will be 34amps on the 535w....while the 420 is only 29amps. Now both meet the spec but for the price diffence the 535w is a better supply in that it at the very least gives you more headroom on the 12v.....as for the rest of the build quality I don't know since i have not seen a 42ow tested.

Edit: out foxed by oklohomawolf ;)
 
Was that so hard? Now I understand, lol. thanks. But that pin connector is still a factor. I know the 420 has a 20pin connector so unless I missed it on the 535w, I'd have to go with the little guy.
 
Dallows said:
Was that so hard? Now I understand, lol. thanks. But that pin connector is still a factor. I know the 420 has a 20pin connector so unless I missed it on the 535w, I'd have to go with the little guy.
Click to expand...

Well any ATX12v2.0 PSU will have a 24pin connector. This will work in a 20 pin board as it is keyed to let the extra four pins fitoutside the connector without issue(so long as no caps are in the way) or through the use of a 24pin to 20pin adapter which many ship with.
 
possibly. I didn't get a good look at it. I might not go with another fortron FSP. Especially with the enermax only a few bucks more. Thanks a lot though guys.
 
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