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NCASE M1 version changelog and suggestions thread
- Thread starter Necere
- Start date
I don't know if this applies to the sfx psu bracket, but would it be possible to design the psu bracket(s) to be removable from the top? like somehow having it slide out vertically? currently it appears the only way to remove the psu is to disassemble most of the other components.
AFD
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+1, I would also like to be able to install/remove my SFX from the top, or even from the back, if possible.
I don't mind removing the side rack, but getting the PSU and bracket around my cooler is a pain in the ass.
Phuncz
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I think that is a good suggestion, I've also had difficulty getting the PSU in and out because of this. It would be nice if this indeed was possible to remove vertically.
My only suggestions are cosmetic. Remove the top panel screw and offer more colors assuming MOQ is met - tell everyone they are only guaranteed silver or black, but that they can request a different color and if enough people request it, it gets ordered.
The option to buy panel kits (maybe that is the only way to get a different color)
The option to buy panel kits (maybe that is the only way to get a different color)
Gandergray
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Hi Necere:
I see that I did not articulate the issue that I raised in my earlier post (74) very well. I believe that the issue regarding height clearance between the top of the power supply and top of the case exists for all users of the caseregardless of whether they are using an SFX or ATX power supply. I acknowledge that I have not yet installed an SFX power supplyI probably will if Silverstone releases a 600 watt SFX power supplybut I believe that SFX power supply users must also use the internal power supply cord that was supplied with the case rather than a power supply cord with a standard height molded IEC 320 C13 connecter, which typically has a height of 39mm. As I noted in my earlier post, the internal power cord that is supplied with the case, and in particular, the low profile connector, appears to be a customized or proprietary item. In fact, the connector has a height of 28mm. See the following image which compares a standard 39mm C13 angled connector and the proprietary 28mm connector.
(Yes, this issue has been discussed in the primary thread, NCASE M1: a crowdfunded Mini-ITX case. See, for example, the section of the thread beginning at Post 7913, and in particular, Post 7923.)
Because the 28mm low profile connector is customized or proprietary, it is difficult, if not impossible, to find a substitute that (1) has a left or down orientation or (2) is constructed with a more robust wire gauge, such as 16/3 AWG. Left or down angled C13 connectors, and heavier gauge power cords are readily availablebut the C13 connectors are 39mm in height. Thus, I asked for the height of the case to be increased to accommodate standard 39mm C13 connectors.
The theme of your response is fair. Why should the case be changed to accommodate my particular build? By analogy, why should the temperature of a building be increased to accommodate one person who is coldespecially when he or she can simply don a sweater? Generally, I don't think the change should be made to accommodate a few. But, if the issue can or does affect many, then perhaps, it is worth considering a change.
As you imply with your reference to edge systems, my guess is that folks who are building more power hungry systems are more likely to want options for the orientation of the C13 connector, and more robust power cords. Conversely, those folks who are building less power hungry systems are probably satisfied with Silverstones 450 watt SFX power supplies, and in turn, they are likely satisfied with the characteristics of the proprietary power cord and the orientation of its 28mm connector.
From my perspective, the gap between the top of the power supply, both SFX and ATX, is, to a degree, wasted but necessary space. Even the 28mm connector requires some space. Absent partial protrusion of the C13 connector outside of the case, the gap will need to exist. (I wonder whether the entire component orientation in the case could be flipped upside down so that the exhaust side of the power supply, with the power switch and C14 plug, would abut the bottom of the case. An angled C13 power cord would connect to the power supply on the bottom of the case. Of course, the case feet would probably need to be heightened a bit. This is probably an idea that can be explored another day.)
Given the foregoing, is it feasible to supply differently-oriented 28mm C13 connectors with the case, i.e., left, right or down angled connectors, and can the gauge of the power cord wire be increased to 16/3 AWG?
Agree about having the option for other orientations of angled connectors, or at least if we could know the source manufacturer to order custom C13 extender cords.
However, confused about the need for 16 AWG. The cord is only a foot or so long, is open air, won't build hardly any heat from resistance. It's unlikely to carry significant current, much less than 10 amps anyway. It would only add to the size of the plug and is electrically unnecessary.
However, confused about the need for 16 AWG. The cord is only a foot or so long, is open air, won't build hardly any heat from resistance. It's unlikely to carry significant current, much less than 10 amps anyway. It would only add to the size of the plug and is electrically unnecessary.
AFD
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Maybe include both a left-angle and a right-angle internal power cable? At least that would cover an extra orientation, and even help for those of us mounting our SFX fan outward.
Plus, that would give us 1 cord to try and shorten as needed, and a spare for those of us that screw it up
this is an interesting comment. There was a time I was exploring the possibility of somehow modding my psu so i could attach it to the existing psu bracket but have it flipped upside down. While not exactly what you wrote above it make me think of it.
My main reason for exploring that idea was b/c I had no experiencing modding psu cable length. Flipping the psu around in that orientation would lend to better cable management, since I could basically start from the top of the case and 'wrap' the cables around the full length of the psu. This would in theory eliminate the need for me to actually cut the psu cables, since they would not be a clogged up rat nest at the bottom (as in the original psu orientation).
two things that stopped me was I realized that if I were to flip the psu around, I'd probably need a longer power cable. And since it was a proprietary length that would mean I'd have to cut my own, which I had no experience doing. But the main issue was that the height at the top of the case would not be enough to accommodate the modular plugs. By my rough estimation I'd actually would need appx 11-12mm more height, So even if I were to mod the psu in such a way to flip it, and get a custom power cable, ultimately I'd not have enough room at the top.
Anyways, I'm pretty neutral about the whole idea of adding that 11mm in order to use non-custom cables. While I can see how there would be a benefit to adding it, and possibly open other possibilities, I also know from past experience Necere was designing m1 with a set idea in mind.
Although, hypothetically If there were an added 11mm in height, would that be enough space to allow mounting a 120mm fan on the top? I'll be honest and say I always felt that not being able to mount for a 120mm fan above the mobo was a missed opportunity. edit: missed opportunity might not be the best choice of words since there was never enough space to fit a fan up there in the final design, I guess what I meant to imply was I wish there had been provision of space for one, but i think that space got moved to where the 3rd slot was.
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It would be interesting to know how many ncase owners are running mDTX boards and using all three slots. My suggestion for r2 is to force all buyers to sign a petition for more mDTX motherboards
First of all, I'm very pleased with the case. Very well thought-out. I was able to mount my 2.5" SSD, 2 RAIDed 3.5" drives, and a 92mm water-cooling system without any problem.
- Minor issue is that I find the Power cable/extension is too long, requiring me to 'loop' it to fit properly. Also, perhaps a way could be found to make the connector reversible/universal? i.e. including a replaceable connector head so you could plug it into the Power Supply in either direction (v or ^) without having to twist the cable. Might not be practical, but just thinking out-loud.
- Also, the all-rubber pass-through bushings on the back of the case are a bit shoddy in quality and don't stay on well. Perhaps sturdier, snap-in options could be used in the future.
- The other issue I encountered (which may or may not be a design issue) related to the Optical drive mount. I purchased a slot-loading laptop Blu-ray drive (UJ-235) and installed it on the M1, but found that the drive simply could not read disks in a vertical position. I also tried another drive, with no success. This forced me to mount the drive in an external caddy, which defeats the purpose of having the mount and slot cut in the case. Perhaps a horizontal mounting option for the optical drive can be accommodated in a future design? - In the meantime, does anyone have a solution (perhaps a different brand of Blu-ray drive I could buy that does read disks in the vertical position?)
Thanks, and keep up the good work!
- Minor issue is that I find the Power cable/extension is too long, requiring me to 'loop' it to fit properly. Also, perhaps a way could be found to make the connector reversible/universal? i.e. including a replaceable connector head so you could plug it into the Power Supply in either direction (v or ^) without having to twist the cable. Might not be practical, but just thinking out-loud.
- Also, the all-rubber pass-through bushings on the back of the case are a bit shoddy in quality and don't stay on well. Perhaps sturdier, snap-in options could be used in the future.
- The other issue I encountered (which may or may not be a design issue) related to the Optical drive mount. I purchased a slot-loading laptop Blu-ray drive (UJ-235) and installed it on the M1, but found that the drive simply could not read disks in a vertical position. I also tried another drive, with no success. This forced me to mount the drive in an external caddy, which defeats the purpose of having the mount and slot cut in the case. Perhaps a horizontal mounting option for the optical drive can be accommodated in a future design? - In the meantime, does anyone have a solution (perhaps a different brand of Blu-ray drive I could buy that does read disks in the vertical position?)
Thanks, and keep up the good work!
It would be interesting to know how many ncase owners are running mDTX boards and using all three slots. My suggestion for r2 is to force all buyers to sign a petition for more mDTX motherboards
The problem was that everybody wanted the case to be a combination of everything. Nas/watercooled/ big gpu/bigger/smaller case. When in fact nobody ever needs 6 hardrives, big cpu coolers, 15" graphics card, dtx motherboard, three slot case. That's why the sg05 is so popular since its simple but I hate it's thin plasticy material it makes it look and feel cheap.
Somewhere else in this thread other people were having issues with the drive reading discs. I believe the issue is that some screw was over-tightened and that reliving some of the tension made everything function properly
AFD
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Yeah, he said the screws were too tight and the disc just kept ejecting. Also, check that the internal M1 power cable isn't putting too much pressure on the back of the drive (mine was closing up the entire slot on the drive) and double-check the drive's power and SATA cables/connections (Necere had issues with one of the Silverstone slim power cables).
That drive should definitely be able to read discs while installed in a vertical position. I installed Windows from disc using my UJ-265 in the M1 just fine.
I was looking at this today http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Down-Ang...EC-320-C14-C13-fr-TV-Wall-Mount-/261348110137
and this http://www.ebay.com/itm/Right-Angle...o-C13-for-LCD-LEC-TV-Wall-Mount-/261348106669 which basically flips it in the other direction.
but since there is no measurements, it is hard to say if something like that could fit.
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yes.. it will be great if panel kits of some color like red is available !!
D
Deleted member 222586
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I have 2 to present:
a) Why not make the SFX bracket sit like 15 mm lower so we have more flexibility regarding the internal power cord use? Or is it that big of a deal? I checked my own images:
If this was possible, Id suggest to add an extra power cord with the case that had the connector angled on the other direction. There would be no need to solder or anything, because the exterior connector goes screwed on the case:
Sure, cost would go up... but who cares? We didn't get this case "because its cheap", but because it was the best available. So: lower SFX bracket + extra cord with other angled connector = more flexibility for everyone. = less problems.
b) Would it be possible to source a pci-e extender (sort of a riser, but its not a riser because you are just moving it a slot away)? Why? If we could move the GPU one slot down (without moving anything else)... there would be more space to use an ATX psu, and thus the case would gain flexibility. It would also make it easier to install a waterblock on it, I guess.
This would also work on any existing case... so, good for everyone. And the SFX bracket would also work for everyone. Good for all, I guess?
a) Why not make the SFX bracket sit like 15 mm lower so we have more flexibility regarding the internal power cord use? Or is it that big of a deal? I checked my own images:
If this was possible, Id suggest to add an extra power cord with the case that had the connector angled on the other direction. There would be no need to solder or anything, because the exterior connector goes screwed on the case:
Sure, cost would go up... but who cares? We didn't get this case "because its cheap", but because it was the best available. So: lower SFX bracket + extra cord with other angled connector = more flexibility for everyone. = less problems.
b) Would it be possible to source a pci-e extender (sort of a riser, but its not a riser because you are just moving it a slot away)? Why? If we could move the GPU one slot down (without moving anything else)... there would be more space to use an ATX psu, and thus the case would gain flexibility. It would also make it easier to install a waterblock on it, I guess.
This would also work on any existing case... so, good for everyone. And the SFX bracket would also work for everyone. Good for all, I guess?
It'd be convenient, but realistically I don't think it's doable. The SFX bracket would need the support attached to the motherboard removed, leaving it supported at three points. Plus the flanges around the top of the case are in the way, and I'm extending the front flange a few mm to address another issue. There just isn't a good way to do it in the case as-is.
Yes, I understood your earlier post. The point is that when using the recommended hardware (note that ATX PSUs, while possible, are explicitly not recommended), the included cable is sufficient. Yes, we did specifically go out of our way to use the lowest-profile angle connector we could get for the case - one which, unfortunately, is not commonly available. Every reasonable measure was taken to reduce the size of the case, but that also means there will occasionally be incompatibilities. As evidenced by the number of successful builds, however, the included cable is adequate for the great majority.
Moving the SFX bracket down, IMO, isn't worth trade-off in lost cable space. Putting it just 10mm lower will easily have the cables putting downward pressure on the top of longer GPUs.
I think what we may do is to see if the supplier can get us a left-angle version of the connector/cable, which we could potentially offer for sale on the website. I think for most people the included cable is fine, and having a second one in the box would just increase cost needlessly.
But if you did that, you'd give up:
- Space for a bottom 3.5" HDD - the only place available when using a 240mm rad or cooler like the NH-C14.
- Space for bottom fans, which aid in system airflow/positive pressure, and enable different kinds of builds (see e.g. the Accelero with 2x120mm fans I tested).
- Room for a pump on the bottom (e.g, OverRated's build).
- Extra space for cables.
I think the most important thing you didn't mention is the PSU would be exhausting into the case. Not something you want to do.
A slim one, maybe. Definitely not enough for a normal 25mm thick fan. Regardless, a height increase is not on the table at this time.
I had a discussion about something like this early in development. It's kind of a neat idea, but I don't think it's workable - partly for technical reasons (it needs to be a flexible riser, but likely won't be flexible enough to put so close to the board/slot, or will stick out too far in one direction or another), as well as economic (cost/MOQ). For something most people are unlikely to take advantage of anyway, it just doesn't make a lot of sense to pursue it.
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actually at the time I was thinking of using my passive psu, so it had no fan at all
but yes, that is a good point to mention. I had not considered where the exhaust air would go
AFD
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I'd be happy with that, and def more willing to try shortening one of them, since I'm kind of afraid of butchering a currently irreplaceable item.
Phuncz
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It's actually not that hard to "fix" the length of the PSU cable, the only skills needed are being patient and be able to solder. The wires are very easy to shorten.
Do you have a link to a tutorial how you did that? It looks very clean.It's actually not that hard to "fix" the length of the PSU cable, the only skills needed are being patient and be able to solder. The wires are very easy to shorten.
AFD
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AFD
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Good for you, I'm so proud
I don't solder too often.. sometimes it's okay, sometimes it's shit. Think I can manage soldering two wire together just fine.. if it's a wire connected to a circuit board, then no.
Hi, quick question for anyone to answer about this. Theoretically, if we were able to move the video card down one slot to have it positioned closer to the bottom where cool air could reach it better without the need of bottom fans; would it provide a similar benefit as the general setup where case fans are added to the bottom despite it being so close to the video card itself? Or would the general setup with the fans at the bottom still be a superior solution for cooling?
Not sure how much benefit we get out of having bottom case fans when it's positioned so closely to the video card, or would simply moving the video card closer to the bottom produce better cooling due to more efficient placement given the small case.
Any thoughts on this? Thanks in advance!
This is regarding the additional notch in the HDD cage so that the fan bracket can fit the upper slot.
I dremeled a notch in the HDD cage, and found that the HDDs are too close to the top of the case, such that my connectors are touching the top panel. The top panel catch that is near the HDD still locks but not completely, and the top panel is not aligned with the side panel. The sata power connectors are from my silverstone bronze psu, the sata cables are obviously right-angle ones.
Just a heads up.
I dremeled a notch in the HDD cage, and found that the HDDs are too close to the top of the case, such that my connectors are touching the top panel. The top panel catch that is near the HDD still locks but not completely, and the top panel is not aligned with the side panel. The sata power connectors are from my silverstone bronze psu, the sata cables are obviously right-angle ones.
Just a heads up.
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As someone who woke up early to purchase one of the extra M1s but missed out (I recently moved to a new timezone and wasn't thinking when I set my alarm, so unfortunately I was an hour late), I'm super excited for the Rev2.
Things I care about:
- video card length (fitting an eVga GTX 680 Classified at 10.5 inches would be nice)
- all-in-one cpu liquid cooling support / mounting (minimum 2x120mm? I don't know enough about liquid cooling. I'm using a much smaller all-in-one on my i7-2600K without difficulty right now)
- mount a single SSD out of the way somewhere
- potential for video card liquid cooling (again I don't know enough)
Nice things but not deal breakers if they're not included:
- slot loading DVD drive
- easily accessible USB 3.0 / headphone / mic ports
Things I don't care about / it would be nice to be able to remove any mounting brackets to make room for other stuff:
- HDDs. I have an OpenIndiana ZFS NAS. Everything goes there except for games I'm taking with me to the LAN
Yes most of these features were already in the original, so the key thing for me would be the video card length.
Thanks guys! I'm super excited for the Rev2 and will definitely be crowdfunding.
Things I care about:
- video card length (fitting an eVga GTX 680 Classified at 10.5 inches would be nice)
- all-in-one cpu liquid cooling support / mounting (minimum 2x120mm? I don't know enough about liquid cooling. I'm using a much smaller all-in-one on my i7-2600K without difficulty right now)
- mount a single SSD out of the way somewhere
- potential for video card liquid cooling (again I don't know enough)
Nice things but not deal breakers if they're not included:
- slot loading DVD drive
- easily accessible USB 3.0 / headphone / mic ports
Things I don't care about / it would be nice to be able to remove any mounting brackets to make room for other stuff:
- HDDs. I have an OpenIndiana ZFS NAS. Everything goes there except for games I'm taking with me to the LAN
Yes most of these features were already in the original, so the key thing for me would be the video card length.
Thanks guys! I'm super excited for the Rev2 and will definitely be crowdfunding.
vipz
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The Classified doesn't fit in the M1 not because of its length, but because of its height/width.
Good catch. I can lower the drive cage, but not by much before it runs into the top of the GPU. Think 2mm will cut it?
As vipz said, extra-wide cards like the Classifieds won't fit. See this post. But as far as length, the case will handle up to 12" cards.
Everything else you mentioned is already in the design, and the changes are only minor things for rev 2. The only thing that might not work (you didn't explicitly mention it, but it could be inferred from what you said) would be if you wanted to do two separate AIO liquid coolers for the CPU and GPU. It *might* fit if you really cram things, but I wouldn't want to. If watercooling the CPU+GPU really the best way is to use a 240 rad and do a custom loop.
My GPU (PowerColor PCS+ R9 290) has an additional backplate, so with 2mm it'll probably be just touching my GPU. It might work for most other GPU.
My suggestion is to make a second set of holes on the HDD cage, so that it can be lowered when the fan bracket is in the top slot. How much it should be lowered is another question.
As to why I want to use the fan bracket in the top slot, it's because I'm using the H60i with the thickest part at the bottom. It's almost touching my GPU at a roughly 1mm distance and I'm not too comfortable about that. It also interferes with taking out my GPU a bit.
I'll post some pictures about the problem in the weekend.
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I received my Ncase yesterday and got everything install. Great job on the case! I'm definitely going to buy the 2nd revision. The biggest improvement I can say is the front I/O panel cables are way too long but I understand this is different for each mobo. I only suggest making it an option for short cables.
It would be nice if we could get these case feet, seen on the prototype PC-Q01
Other then that, everything else seems to be well thought out and close to what I would consider the perfect case, which is impossible considering all the variables.
It would be nice if we could get these case feet, seen on the prototype PC-Q01
Other then that, everything else seems to be well thought out and close to what I would consider the perfect case, which is impossible considering all the variables.
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Agreed I think a single loop makes more sense in such a small case.
Thanks vipz and Necere for explaining the reason the Classified won't fit.
At first I was very confused when you said it was width, not length, that was the issue, but the picture really helped clarify things. I guess I'm old school cause I would call that the card height. I still look at expansion cards as though they sit vertically on a horizontal motherboard. The width in my mind is when a card takes up the area of two expansion slots, usually for cooling reasons.
Additional questions:
- Would the classified card fit in the M1 if the power connectors weren't hooked up?
- Would I be able to purchase an extra case side which I could modify to fit the power connectors?
Thanks!
Depending on the time-frame Rev2 ships I might buy a new GPU but this one has been great so far so I don't see any reason to upgrade yet.
From our site:
Newegg says the GTX 680 Classified is 5.94" (151mm) wide; if that's accurate, then no, it won't fit - power connectors or not. Keep in mind the entire case is only 160mm wide.
Great thanks!
Maybe time to start shopping around for a new video card, or I'll make my own modifications to the Rev 2
Would it be possible to make the vent holes on the panels larger? I find that there is noticeable amount of "whistling noise" being made when fans up against the vent are pushing a lot of air through. Maybe larger vent holes would prevent this? Also, having larger vent holes would make using vinyl wraps on the panels a much more feasible task (something I wanted to do but decided against once I saw how small the vent holes were).
[edit] Also, with the original M1 I'm forced to not have my HDD on the bottom of the case as my GTX 780 (reference blower) spikes my HDD's temp to ~55C when gaming. Given that the GPU's heatsink is right above where the HDD is when installed on the bottom, I'm wondering if being able to install the HDD closer to the front end of the bottom side of the case might prevent the heat radiating from the card from baking the HDD.
[edit] Also, with the original M1 I'm forced to not have my HDD on the bottom of the case as my GTX 780 (reference blower) spikes my HDD's temp to ~55C when gaming. Given that the GPU's heatsink is right above where the HDD is when installed on the bottom, I'm wondering if being able to install the HDD closer to the front end of the bottom side of the case might prevent the heat radiating from the card from baking the HDD.
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Phuncz
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I believe the vent holes are already at it's maximum (size and number) to maintain panel integrity.
For your HDD: the problem is the limited amount of space for non-critical components. Except for the fan-bracket on the side and the bottom of the case, there isn't really any room left for a 3,5" HDD.
For your HDD: the problem is the limited amount of space for non-critical components. Except for the fan-bracket on the side and the bottom of the case, there isn't really any room left for a 3,5" HDD.
First I've heard of (or heard) whistling. Are you running the fans at fairly high speed (>2k RPM)? Have you tried running with the side panel off to see if it's actually a result of the vent holes? I read an analysis of the impact of different vents designs some time ago, and IIRC the uniformly distributed smaller holes like we're using was one of the quieter ones (albeit somewhat restrictive).
Changing the vent holes to larger ones is likely unfeasible, since we're using Lian Li's standard tooling they use on all their cases. New tooling = $$$$. Slotted style vents would be possible using their existing tooling, though. I just can't say I'd prefer the aesthetics of that.
This has been brought up before. The HDD mount can't be moved forward without giving up the bottom fan mounts, basically. A separate bracket that attaches to the fan mounts might be a possibility, though there's little vertical space to make that work.
The bottom HDD mount is ideally best used only when the GPU is watercooled (or absent), with the side HDD cage being preferred otherwise.