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Discussion in 'Small Form Factor Systems' started by Necere, Mar 6, 2014.
It will interfere with GPU height by 2mm, since the glass is 2mm thick.
Could you explain it a little more? How exactly do you attach the HDD bracket to the PSU mounts? Sorry if I'm being dense.
An SFX PSU has a 92mm fan. You'd install the PSU with the fan facing inward. Then you'd need to attach a 92-to-120mm adapter (look them up on Amazon) to the PSU fan mounts and then attach the HDD bracket (which has 120mm mounts) to the adapter. If using an SFX-L PSU you can mount the HDD cage directly to the fan mounts as SFX-L uses a 120mm fan.
It's not exactly an elegant solution as you would limit airflow to the PSU, and also accessing the cables under the PSU won't be easy and mounting/unmounting the bracket will be a pain. But it's an option nevertheless.
Thanks. Will the glass panel fit with an ATX PSU? It seems like the ATX bracket is offset by about 2mm from the edge of the frame, so it should barely fit, correct?
These are a few of my thoughts/ideas inspired by Steacomm's DA2 case (which no doubt was much inspired by the NCASE). I'm not expecting anything here, but these are a few of the design features that I have been wishing for.
With the new window kit negating the usefulness of the side bracket, I would like to see a new top bracket of sorts to perform similar functions.
This would allow for a few things:
-HDD mounting over PSU (greedily would appreciate squeezing in 3 since they could fit with a new bracket)
-Slim top 120mm fan mount (over socket)
-Slim top~80mm fan mount (over right side?)
Other perhaps less feasible thoughts with the windowed side panel in mind:
-Vertical GPU mount for the functional purpose of clearing up the bottom of the case for 240mm AIO support (Inspired by the MNPCTECH vertical gpu bracket)
Least feasible thoughts:
-Some type of NCASE "top hat"? For fans or perhaps AIO?
Funnily enough, from a design perspective, I'd imagine the top compartment expansion idea would be the most feasible. It likely wouldn't even need a new revision of the case. In addition to the toolless clips that hold the top panel on, there's also the screw holes for the psu bracket for it to screw into. It could then either come with longer screws that would go through the expansion, the frame, and the bracket and hold it all together, or have a place within itself to attach the bracket. Of course, they're never going to make one officially, it wouldn't be profitable since it'd be a a niche within a niche, but you might be able to design and make a custom one yourself.
Would it be possible to release a solid backside panel for the M1? That way, in combination with the window panel, you can have more streamlined airflow from the bottom to top/rear for a "chimney" effect of sorts.
That's probably too small of a niche to be worth adding more options/parts for, and it doesn't seem to me that it offers much value anyway. Any bottom-top laminar airflow is already going to be interrupted by the GPU.
That's true but at least you wouldn't lose most of the air from the bottom intakes by the time it reaches the CPU cooler. I think with a window panel a solid back panel makes a lot of sense. But I agree that it's a small niche, probably wouldn't be worth stocking.
How do you figure that? Air going from the bottom intakes to the rear vents requires traversing most of the case, including the CPU cooler, which is itself pretty close to the back. Have you done any tests with the rear closed off to support this idea?
Just so we're on the same page, by backside I meant the panel that covers the back of the motherboard and the PSU, not the rear 92mm exhaust.
And I haven't run tests, but I just figured, when air from the bottom intakes hits the GPU, it makes a 90 degree turn and disperses in all directions. Some of it gets lost through the front I/O gap, but that's still a relatively small amount, some of it gets lost thru the GPU/3rd slot vents (I have a solid PCIe bracket for my 3rd slot and solid grommets for the watercooling holes, so I've sealed those up), but then a significant amount gets lost though the backside vents, especially on the PSU side if you have an SFX PSU. You'd definitely get better bottom-to-top airflow with a solid back panel. Now, obviously this only applies to window panel builds, and I understand the case was not designed with a window panel in mind, but if you do have a window panel with the bottom being your main (or only) intake, then a sealed backside panel will make a lot of sense, in fact windowed M1s should ship with it by default IMO. Clearly, tests need to be run, but I think it's just common sense. I suspect a lot of M1s ship with window panels now, so this may be worth giving some consideration.
In reality, if your CPU cooler needs extra air, it will just get it from the top vent or a rear 92mm intake, but then you have to worry about dust management.
Ah, okay. The right side panel ventilation is what you're talking about. I'm actually considering adding even more ventilation to both side panels (well, both on the non-window version), to help with getting the GPU exhaust out of the system. That's something that people have requested for a long time, but early on I didn't want to do because of the greater potential for warping that punching all of those holes creates. However, sometime in the last few years LL acquired a press to flatten out the panels after the punching operation so it may be more viable now.
Of course, adding more holes to the side panels exacerbates the issue of air escaping before getting to the CPU. As you know, I designed the case around an airflow scheme that expects at least one intake fan on the side; the windowed panel was something I was never in favor of and w360 really had to do some convincing to get me to go along with, precisely because it defeats the original airflow scheme and trades performance for looks.
That said, I can appreciate giving people options. If it's any consolation, I'm working on opening up the floor of the case for more ventilation and at least semi-supporting 140mm fans there, which should help push more air up through the case.
Ok, I see. Also, I just realized some people use the right side panel vents for PSU intake, so they couldn't do that with a solid panel. IMO the case will definitely look worse with the side panels having more ventilation, but I guess it would get rid of GPU exhaust better. I guess the case was designed without much air channeling in mind, but rather with intakes providing direct air to whatever needs it and then exhaust finding its way out through whatever vent is closest.
I know you don't like the window panel, but it's what people want nowadays, and there isn't another option for a case this small that has a window. Moreover the M1 can actually do window panel pretty well despite not being designed for it, and a solid right panel would just be extra help in that, but I can see how it's a niche within a niche for not a ton of extra benefit. Unless it was another window panel...? Then you could have dual windows and better airflow, and make some extra money? I'm about 40% joking. I'd definitely buy it.
How are you going to fit 140mm fans on the bottom, I'd like to see that. Would be a great feature for future owners.
There's just enough space lengthwise for two 140mm fans, although two of the screw holes on the rearmost fan would be blocked off by the case feet.
Widthwise it's a little more problematic because of the side panel clips, which leave barely too little space at 138mm between them across the case. For most fans with open corners it's probably okay, but it could still be an issue for some. Hence why I say "semi-support."
Two of my old posts from the main M1 thread illustrate these topics:
Dual (slim) 140 mm fans on the bottom panel
Interference of the fan mounting holes with the rear case feet
Also, on the subject of solid vs. ventilation holes in the right side panel (behind the motherboard), many systems have M.2 SSDs mounted here and the nearby ventilation holes must be helping to keep the temperature of those devices down.
Right, I remember your post. Great work, I might do the same when I switch to the window panel. Those fans have super high CFM, 2 should provide enough air for the CPU cooler and PSU even with pressure escaping through the right side panel vents.
And regarding the panel, you'd get airflow from the bottom fans over those rear-mounted drives.
Congrats on the V6 redesign, some amazing improvements! Great work as always.
A few comments/questions:
New Front I/O -- I have to say, I'm not crazy about the combo jack. I think for anyone who uses front audio, headphone + mic is necessary, I use both. It also looks a bit weird this way. I would have rather had headphone + mic and then two type C ports on the other side, or one type A and one type C.
Top panel changed to 2mm -- How thick was it before? Does it match the other panels?
ODD bracket redesign -- With the ODD slot top panel discontinued, what is the point of keeping this? An ODD cannot be used with V6 unless someone found an old top panel on the second-hand market.
HDD Bracket redesign -- I love the added flexibility. Why can't 3.5" drives be used with the front 2.5" mount? Would it be too unstable? It would be great for window builds that want to use a 3.5" drive.
Inside front mounting for SFX -- Just curious, does this use the same mounting points as the old ATX bracket? If not, could you keep the ATX points and potentially offer the ATX bracket as a standalone in the future? A few people still use ATX PSUs, myself included. There may be 120mm models coming in the future, compatible with long GPUs in the M1.
Separate steel bottom plate -- Is it removable? I don't know why anyone would want to remove it, but... just wondering.
Changes I absolutely love:
Reinforced PCIe threads -- I stripped one of mine, this is a great change.
New feet -- They look amazing and we needed more bottom airflow. The old feet were the weakest point of the M1 aesthetically I thought, so it's great this has been addressed.
GPU support bracket -- Brilliant. Just brilliant. I hope other ITX manufacturers do this.
Changes I dislike:
Extended side panel vents. Don't think it's worth compromising looks and airflow channeling/dust management for slightly better GPU temps, but I know I'm in the minority on this.
You can use a splitter cable so you have full headphone+mic functionality through that single jack. The industry is moving in this direction, with several newer cases coming with a combo jack.
It's 1.5mm on <=V5. The rest of the panels are still 1.5mm. For one of the prototypes I tested using 2mm for all the exterior panels, and while it did improve the rigidity and conveyed higher quality from the increased weight, it introduced some side effects (panel warping from the hole punching, and some flaring at the tight front panel bends) that didn't seem worth the trade-off.
W360 intends to stock some ODD top panels. The ODD tray provides the outside-front 2.5" mounting, as well (in lieu of an ODD), so it's still useful.
3.5" drives are ~100mm wide, 2.5" are ~70mm. The brackets are two pieces now, and are able to support either width (but not both at the same time) by moving them closer together. To mount to the inside front, the brackets are rotated relative to the fan bracket mounting, and in that orientation there is only room for the 70mm 2.5" drives between the PSU and fan bracket (or side panel).
The SFX bracket uses a new set of holes on the inside-front of the chassis, not the top chassis beams like the ATX bracket. The ATX bracket mounting holes will be retained for legacy support, however, so if you have one/can get one, you'll be able to use it.
It is removable. Without it, most of the bottom of the case is completely open. Maybe useful for people who really want to optimize airflow, at the expense of dust control (or using a bottom exhaust?).
Mostly looks are affected, I think. Dust control shouldn't be any worse if you run a positive pressure setup, and thermals (system, not just GPU) have the potential to be significantly improved since it offers direct exhaust for axial cooler cards.
Thanks for your comments.
Thanks for the replies! Just 2 follow-ups:
I know you can use a dongle, but I think the point of the front I/O is to cut down on the use of dongles. I get that this is a transitional I/O of sorts. In the future, would you be open to doing headphone + mic on one side and two type-C ports on the other? I think it would look better and be more practical.
I see. So why did you feel the need to make the top panel alone 2mm? Will it really improve rigidity by itself? It seems like a bit of a random change, maybe not worth the added expense?
If Type C becomes as ubiquitous as Type A is, sure, I'd look at multiple Type C. Boards would probably need to come with two Type E headers (one replacing the old 19 pin entirely) for that to make sense though. Even then, I'd probably lean towards the functionality of another USB port, rather than go back to the separate audio/mic ports. I think most people aren't using them anymore, in favor of USB headsets, Bluetooth/wireless, or external audio interfaces.
I always felt the top panel to be a little flimsy, a little too easy to bend. 2mm all around may not have worked out, but at least we could do this one.
Just curious, will it make the top panel less flush with the side panels or have you factored that into the new design?
And one last question on the GPU support bracket -- will it be possible to fit 2 120mm fans + the bracket? Maybe with no front I/O?
It will sit slightly higher than the front and side panels, by design. The problem we were having is LL's stud welding process isn't perfect, and sometimes they come out a little crooked which can affect how the panel sits relative to the others. If the panel sits too high (above the top panel) it's more noticeable than if it sits too low. So setting the top panel to be a little higher by default addresses this.
The is also one reason I've removed all four of the vertical-stabilizing side panel clips: without them, the panels have more vertical adjustability, and I found that they weren't actually necessary and the six horizontally-stabilizing clips provided sufficient tension to keep the panels in place.
Yes, there's enough room for the GPU support bracket and two 120mm fans, even keeping the front I/O.
What will the new price be? SFFLAB hasn't updated the price yet.