NCASE M1: a crowdfunded Mini-ITX case (updates in first post)

[adamantium]

It's actually not a few mm away, it's quite a bit. Width of the mATX boards cab be up to several inches more than miniITX boards. The case would have to be quite a bit larger to incorporate mATX spec and that would then be an entirely different case. If you really want a dual GPU setup then this case isnt really what you want. You can build a really nice single GPU setup in this case, though. The Silverstone SFX 450W will run an i7 + Titan, even with some overclocking too. That's a hell of a lot of horsepower in a tiny little box!

That being said there are some mATX boards that MAY be able to fit, ones that are not very wide. I don't know of any off the top of my head but I have seen some people post ideas of possibilities earlier on in this thread.

20mm taller and nothing longer or wider would fit a standard mATX board with a SFX power supply facing forward with upward exhaust. Front panel would act as fresh air scoop from bottom IO panel area and prevent recirculation. This would still fit the 240mm radiator because mATX dimensions is 244mm square. You just need some space for radiator clearance, and you get that with the SFX mounted forward facing. The case is 320mm long. SFX height is 64mm, leaving 256mm. If this is still too tight for your favorite radiator with built-in reservoir, then push the PSU to the side for 2.3 inches of clearance or add 10-20mm to length.

If you need a standard ATX PSU for dual Titans and still want 240mm radiator, then you are out of luck. The dimensions become worse than those of the Sugo SG09 and SG10 or the upcoming Prodigy M. Too fat, too long, too tall. Who wants upside down and drives mounted outside the case on the bottom? But for those who want mATX for the board features, memory, and slots, 20mm increase in height isn't too outrageous, and would allow two 3.5 inch HDD to be mounted on the bottom, or provide more clearance for 240mm radiator and fans on bottom.

I am not suggesting that things change for the NCASE. I want the production campaign to start as soon as possible, and it is too late in the process to make these kinds of changes. Keep it in mind maybe for next time.

Can we get a little info on how much longer the wait? Not trying to push something that takes time, just trying to understand why the delays.

 

[Necere]

20mm taller and nothing longer or wider would fit a standard mATX board with a SFX power supply facing forward with upward exhaust.

Actually it wouldn't. Internally there's 304mm from front to back (307mm with the inside SDD bracket removed). The motherboard also sits about 2mm in from the back panel. So it'd be a few mm short of fitting.

You just need some space for radiator clearance, and you get that with the SFX mounted forward facing. The case is 320mm long. SFX height is 64mm, leaving 256mm.

240mm rads are between 275-280mm long (more if they have a built-in res). So nowhere near enough to put the PSU in front of the rad. You're looking at an extra ~40mm of depth if you wanted to do that (more for e.g., the H220 rad).

If this is still too tight for your favorite radiator with built-in reservoir, then push the PSU to the side for 2.3 inches of clearance or add 10-20mm to length.

Internal width is 157mm. SFX is 125mm. That leaves 32mm, or 1.26". Not enough for a rad (or at least, not with a fan).

Can we get a little info on how much longer the wait? Not trying to push something that takes time, just trying to understand why the delays.

LL is building the preproduction sample. I want to make sure there are no problems with that, and no surprises cost-wise. I also have some rendering left to do, and some editing of the campaign write up.

 

[Screes]

Has LL showed any interest in mass producing this? Will they own the intellectual property for this design since they are making it? Have you talked to them at all about this?

 

[Nikoi]

Hey!

First of all huge respect to wahaha360 and Necere for the work they are doing and to the community!

The idea of SFF power horse was appealing to me for quite some time now. My first experience was with Shuttle barebone about 8 years ago. Needless to say my options were very limited and I ended up with hot and noisy PC. It was so noisy that I've dumped the idea and my next build was fairly big mATX case with lots (and I mean LOTS) of noise reduction stuff. The result was very pleasant to my ears but not to my eyes.
Recently I discovered your project and it sparked my long lost sympathy to SFF again.
So here are several questions to decide if I should go for M1 build.

My preliminary specs are:
CPU - Intel i5 4670(k)
Cooling - big air cooled radiator (Noctua NH-C14)
MoBo - Gigabyte H87 or Z87 mITX
RAM - 16 Gigs
GPU - nVidia GTX 770 stock blower
Power - non-modular ATX PSU (500W Sea Sonic?)
Storage - 2 SSDs + ODD

My specs reasoning - I guess that biggest noise sources in idle state are PSU and/or water pump so I've opted for bigger/quieter ATX PSU and big air cooled radiator. Under the load I guess video card cooler will be the noisiest but stock blower is the best option.
Putting PC on a table is a big risk in my experience as audible noise level increases dramatically.

- Do you think it is possible to build silent in idle and near silent under load M1 box? I mean do you think we are getting with M1 to the point where performance and noise could be balanced in SFF?
- What options are available to reach the goal?
- Could you please clarify a bit on PSU airflow when ATX PSU is used?
- Do you think water cooling is feasible from noise reduction stand point?
- What is the quietest configuration for the box in your opinion and how does it sounds (assuming you are using performance GPU)?

 

[Screes]

.

GPU - nVidia GTX 770 stock blower
Power - non-modular ATX PSU (500W Sea Sonic?)


- Do you think it is possible to build silent in idle and near silent under load M1 box? I mean do you think we are getting with M1 to the point where performance and noise could be balanced in SFF?
- What options are available to reach the goal?
- Could you please clarify a bit on PSU airflow when ATX PSU is used?
- Do you think water cooling is feasible from noise reduction stand point?
- What is the quietest configuration for the box in your opinion and how does it sounds (assuming you are using performance GPU)?

If your using an ATX PSU longer than 140mm and/or modular, then the longest video card you can put in it is around 200mm (8in).

I know its possible to make something in this silent under load, you just have to pick your components carefully. My M1 build will have a maximum of 2 fans, both GT AP-14's. passive atx PSU, GTX 660 with stock fans removed and AP-14 ducted to heatsink, 4770S CPU, Thermalright AXP-100 heatsink with AP-14 ducted to side panel. Should run everything i want with max settings at 1080p resolution.

PSU airflow with ATX sucks air in from the motherboard region, and exhausts out the top.

The loudest thing about water cooling is the pump. If you think the pump is quiet, then you'll think the rest if the system is quiet. Personally i think all pumps are too loud, but I'm a little SPCR kinda crazy about noise.

 

[wahaha360]

Has LL showed any interest in mass producing this? Will they own the intellectual property for this design since they are making it? Have you talked to them at all about this?

As of right now, Lian Li has *not expressed any interest to mass produce this product.

NCASE owns the intellectual property of the design.

 

[Phuncz]

GPU - nVidia GTX 770 stock blower

Best of luck finding a reference model, only Inno3D seems to make them and they are expensive (500$ and up) and rare. I'm contemplating an EVGA one with the blower-style solution, but those are also harder to come by and still a 50$ premium where I live.

 

[wreckem]

Best of luck finding a reference model, only Inno3D seems to make them and they are expensive (500$ and up) and rare. I'm contemplating an EVGA one with the blower-style solution, but those are also harder to come by and still a 50$ premium where I live.

Inno3D doesn't sell in the US. Anything you find being sold is an import and thats why it is so much more expensive. Its not worthwhile to import them because for not much more you can get titan jr. That said Inno3d has the only 770 with the titan blower cooler. PNY and EVGA have 770s with blowers but they use the 680 reference blower which isn't terrible.

 

[Phuncz]

I was actually using my local prices as a reference, which is 500€ (in consumer electronics, € = $) and I suspect those aren't imported.

 

[Klrgoten]

So far so good!! lets get this out there !

 

[cowsgomoo]

LL is building the preproduction sample. I want to make sure there are no problems with that, and no surprises cost-wise.

Will you be testing the preproduction sample?

 

[Avalaros]

First time caller, long time listener here.

I felt like I had to sign up, just to commend you guys on the truly awesome work and the massive effort being put into this project. Thank you guys! You are making the dream come true, for a lot of SFF enthusiasts.

I would also like to comment that I think you guys have seriously underestimated the demand for a product like the Ncase M1. Stunning looks perfectly balanced with function, in a small form. Who wouldn't want one?!
This has left me wondering: will the next indiegogo campaign have room for orders exceeding the planned 300 units? Or will it be first come, first serve until the 300 units have been distributed?
Im just wondering because im starting to worry if there will be a M1 with my name on it.

 

[wahaha360]

Will you be testing the preproduction sample?

That's the plan. We will most likely send it to Maximum PC and Tom's Hardware for independent review.

 

[Dephcon]

I would also like to comment that I think you guys have seriously underestimated the demand for a product like the Ncase M1. Stunning looks perfectly balanced with function, in a small form. Who wouldn't want one?!
This has left me wondering: will the next indiegogo campaign have room for orders exceeding the planned 300 units? Or will it be first come, first serve until the 300 units have been distributed?
Im just wondering because im starting to worry if there will be a M1 with my name on it.

I think they'll be taking orders for X days and however many there are is as many as they'll have made plus a few extras for RMAs.

 

[Avalaros]

I hope that will be the case, but make it a rutine to check this thread daily to avoid missing updates...

 

[Screes]

That's the plan. We will most likely send it to Maximum PC and Tom's Hardware for independent review.

I'm certain Mike Chen at SPCR and Anand Lal Shimpi at Anandtech would also love to review this case.

Also, so we're not forgetting the obvious, what about Kyle Bennett at [H]ardOCP?

 

[Pip_Buoy]

I agree, but I still don't have Thunderbolt or a place to connect two PCIe 4x or higher cards. I wish motherboard manufactures would produce some equivalent mDTX motherboards with a second 8x or 16x PCIe slot, or at least support splitting on the single 16x slot like they do on their bigger boards. The ability to split 16x into 8x + 4x + 4x would be great, and would all fit inside this case. A four slot NCASE with an ASUS mDTX ROG Impact with thunderbolt and splitable dual 16x PCIe 3.0 would be perfect

We can dream

 

[bbskd87]

1. Can I assume this case will work with the CPU socket position on an ASRock Z87E-ITX motherboard + Noctua NH-C14?

2. How quiet can I expect a Silverstone SFX modular to be with a fan swapped for a noiseblocker?
That's the only part I haven't decided yet. Wait for the upcoming 120mm SFXs or just get the Silverstone and mod it?

 

[Necere]

...
So here are several questions to decide if I should go for M1 build.

My preliminary specs are:
CPU - Intel i5 4670(k)
Cooling - big air cooled radiator (Noctua NH-C14)
MoBo - Gigabyte H87 or Z87 mITX
RAM - 16 Gigs
GPU - nVidia GTX 770 stock blower
Power - non-modular ATX PSU (500W Sea Sonic?)
Storage - 2 SSDs + ODD

Okay except: 1.) ATX PSU is limited to non-modular <=140mm long, and not recommended anyway unless you're planning to shorten the cables; 2.) from a cursory look at the Gigabyte ITX boards, it looks like the socket position is wrong for big air coolers (see below for more on this).

- Do you think it is possible to build silent in idle and near silent under load M1 box? I mean do you think we are getting with M1 to the point where performance and noise could be balanced in SFF?

I don't know about "near-silent" under load. The M1 has neither the baffled vents or sound dampening of larger cases, nor the room for large radiators, so cooling high power components is going to entail a certain amount of audible noise no matter what. That said, I personally find the H220 setup with watercooled GPU and PWM controlled fans to have reasonable noise levels.

- Could you please clarify a bit on PSU airflow when ATX PSU is used?

Pulls air from inside the case - either from the motherboard area, or from the gap behind the chassis front - and exhausts it out the top.

- Do you think water cooling is feasible from noise reduction stand point?

Absolutely.

1. Can I assume this case will work with the CPU socket position on an ASRock Z87E-ITX motherboard + Noctua NH-C14?

Ah, the pitfalls of trying to support high-end hardware in a very small case. With the CPU socket position on that board, the NH-C14 won't fit. Even the smaller NH-C12 won't. There's just not enough room (about 10mm) for large heatsinks to overhang past the top edge of the motherboard.

Judging by the pics, the socket on that ASROCK board is around 20mm higher than on the board I tested with (the ASUS P8Z77-i Deluxe). That leaves 55-60mm from the CPU center to the top panel. Looking at this drawing of the NH-C12, you can see CPU center to edge is 63mm/67mm/85mm:

Moral of the story, if you want to use a big air cooler in the M1, you need to have a centrally-located socket on the motherboard. For a board with a high or low (i.e., next to the top edge or PCIe slot, respectively) socket position, you may be limited to smaller 92mm fan heatsinks (or closed-loop liquid cooling).

2. How quiet can I expect a Silverstone SFX modular to be with a fan swapped for a noiseblocker?
That's the only part I haven't decided yet. Wait for the upcoming 120mm SFXs or just get the Silverstone and mod it?

I didn't do the Noiseblocker swap myself, but I found the ST45SF-G to be quiet at idle, and somewhat whiny under load. Maybe I got lucky with the unit I got or maybe the noise floor isn't low enough, but I couldn't hear any of the noise at idle others have complained about. Nevertheless, the load noise was bothersome enough that I swapped the fan for an externally-mounted Nexus 80x25mm fan, which is considerably quieter.

 

[WiSK]

2. How quiet can I expect a Silverstone SFX modular to be with a fan swapped for a noiseblocker?

Before http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwl-A0Cx6t8
After http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P02jVmMBuc (the microphone of the camera was right over the fan, which is why you can hear anything at all!)

Also
http://www.moddiy.com/products/3%2d...-Mini-2%2dPin-GPU-Fan-Connector-(Female).html
This adapter makes it very easy to do the mod, no soldering needed. It's just the right length for the NB PC-P which conveniently has the fan connector near the frame.

 

[SithSolo1]

Ah, the pitfalls of trying to support high-end hardware in a very small case. With the CPU socket position on that board, the NH-C14 won't fit. Even the smaller NH-C12 won't. There's just not enough room (about 10mm) for large heatsinks to overhang past the top edge of the motherboard.

Judging by the pics, the socket on that ASROCK board is around 20mm higher than on the board I tested with (the ASUS P8Z77-i Deluxe). That leaves 55-60mm from the CPU center to the top panel. Looking at this drawing of the NH-C12, you can see CPU center to edge is 63mm/67mm/85mm:

Moral of the story, if you want to use a big air cooler in the M1, you need to have a centrally-located socket on the motherboard. For a board with a high or low (i.e., next to the top edge or PCIe slot, respectively) socket position, you may be limited to smaller 92mm fan heatsinks (or closed-loop liquid cooling).

Looking around at the Z77/Z87 ITX motherboards that have been or are in the process of being released if you want a large heatsink it looks like ASUS is your only choice. They are the only ones with a centrally located socket. Also, looking at the new Asus ROG ITX board I have to wonder if that new audio daughter board might interfere as well.

 

[Phuncz]

Ah, the pitfalls of trying to support high-end hardware in a very small case. With the CPU socket position on that board, the NH-C14 won't fit. Even the smaller NH-C12 won't. There's just not enough room (about 10mm) for large heatsinks to overhang past the top edge of the motherboard.

Judging by the pics, the socket on that ASROCK board is around 20mm higher than on the board I tested with (the ASUS P8Z77-i Deluxe). That leaves 55-60mm from the CPU center to the top panel. Looking at this drawing of the NH-C12, you can see CPU center to edge is 63mm/67mm/85mm

Holy crap, it's a good thing I didn't order the NH-C14 yet or I'd have a 65&#8364; paperweight.
I was under the assumption somehow it would fit on the Asrock. Then I'll need to wait and see which closed-loop liquid cooling solutions fit best...

 

[ekuest]

if anyone is interested in building on a budget in this case, a 120mm coolit all-in-one is available for $20, or $10 after rebate, plus ship. good price either way. beware of using cheap AIOs on your expensive hardware though!

 

[Nikoi]

I'm a little SPCR kinda crazy about noise.

I think to reach acceptable noise levels we will have to experiment a little with the box and different hardware first. CPU imo will not be a problem as with Haswell we have plenty of options to go with. GPU is completely different story. With the first 3840x2160 monitor going on sale this month I would guess that in about 12-24 months I will get one of those. This will put enormous pressure on a GPU. So performance vs. noise level GPU choice is not so obvious to me. Though Titan is a good option. We will see.

Best of luck finding a reference model...

Well, having an experience of ordering pricey custom build limited edition PC hardware I would say that should everything go normal M1 boxes will start arriving by Christmas the earliest. More likely 1Q2014. So all current build specs speculations are a bit theoretical.

...from a cursory look at the Gigabyte ITX boards, it looks like the socket position is wrong for big air coolers...
Ah, the pitfalls of trying to support high-end hardware in a very small case. With the CPU socket position on that board, the NH-C14 won't fit...

Tanks for the answers! Gigabyte was chosen to natively run OS X. I will try to evaluate all compatible with it and M1 cooling options including WC.

 

[harsaphes]

I'm starting my build fund now. If the case isn't coming out till after Christmas I'll have a sweet big pot of cash and go for the high end. The waiting game begins.

 

[Dephcon]

So I guess I'm no longer on the fence over Asus vs ASrock. All hail or new SFF overlords at ASUS!

 

[BigBadStevo]

Would a 4770k and GTX690 work on a small 600W?

Saving up for this case and the excitement is over the roof!...going to be great for traveling and Lans



Never mind about this question, I found the answer in a later post.
I plan on modding my PSU

 

[adamantium]

Actually it wouldn't. Internally there's 304mm from front to back (307mm with the inside SDD bracket removed). The motherboard also sits about 2mm in from the back panel. So it'd be a few mm short of fitting.

240mm rads are between 275-280mm long (more if they have a built-in res). So nowhere near enough to put the PSU in front of the rad. You're looking at an extra ~40mm of depth if you wanted to do that (more for e.g., the H220 rad).

Internal width is 157mm. SFX is 125mm. That leaves 32mm, or 1.26". Not enough for a rad (or at least, not with a fan).

LL is building the preproduction sample. I want to make sure there are no problems with that, and no surprises cost-wise. I also have some rendering left to do, and some editing of the campaign write up.

Necere,

Thanks for the internal dimensions. It sounds like 20mm higher 1mm longer and no wider would technically fit mATX. Add another mm for a total of 2mm and you are at an even 330mm external length and still shorter than the Shuttles. Add 12mm instead (less than half an inch) and you have cable room in front of the motherboard or room for the SSDs.

On the side you would still have room for dual 120mm fans alone, HDDs, 120mm AIO, fat dual 92mm radiator with fans, or now a 240mm radiator with fans on bottom. Overall just more options and the ability to say your smaller case holds water cooled mATX as well. For those who want dual Titans, they can mount an external 240mm x 80mm radiator on top with dual 120mm x 38mm fans if they want or buy something else.

Again there is value in mATX that doesn't need to include overclocked dual Titans. Just food for thought next time if there is one.

 

[Screes]

Necere,

Thanks for the internal dimensions. It sounds like 20mm higher 1mm longer and no wider would technically fit mATX. Add another mm for a total of 2mm and you are at an even 330mm external length and still shorter than the Shuttles. Add 12mm instead (less than half an inch) and you have cable room in front of the motherboard or room for the SSDs.

On the side you would still have room for dual 120mm fans alone, HDDs, 120mm AIO, fat dual 92mm radiator with fans, or now a 240mm radiator with fans on bottom. Overall just more options and the ability to say your smaller case holds water cooled mATX as well. For those who want dual Titans, they can mount an external 240mm x 80mm radiator on top with dual 120mm x 38mm fans if they want or buy something else.

Again there is value in mATX that doesn't need to include overclocked dual Titans. Just food for thought next time if there is one.

I know quite a few people who think this case is already too big, even bigger would be unacceptable.

 

[ptrout]

Is this available for order yet ? I could not find the link to official page, thanks

 

[Phuncz]

Gigabyte was chosen to natively run OS X. I will try to evaluate all compatible with it and M1 cooling options including WC.

Did you happen to come across Gigabyte as the choice for OS X at tonymacx86.com ? Because that forum has quite the "Gigabyte-minded" (understatement) moderators and owner.

Is this available for order yet ? I could not find the link to official page, thanks

Welcome, daily "Frequently Asked Question".
Answer: no.

 

[DarkStryke]

So I guess I'm no longer on the fence over Asus vs ASrock. All hail or new SFF overlords at ASUS!

To be fair they won the battle last round with the P8Z77-I Deluxe.

 

[Dephcon]

I was hoping the other manufactures would learn their lesson on socket placement.

 

[Nikoi]

Did you happen to come across Gigabyte as the choice for OS X at tonymacx86.com ?

Yep. I was there from the beginning. Tony is a great guy. Helped me a lot.
Of course I had MacOS running on my PC before all tonymac thing happened. And there are many MoBo and hardware options to go with. But I prefer his and MacMan approach. It is more straight forward.

Coming back to M1, I am still a bit hesitant to wether I should wait for new Mac Pro specs, tests and prices as it is a direct competitor to M1 build in my view.

 

[wahaha360]

Hi everyone,

We are in the process of finalizing shipping costs.

We would like to know which countries our customers reside in (most donors didn’t provide their address and some people missed the prototype campaign).

Please use this link: www.ncases.com/poll

 

[Loxxess]

@W360, Is the plan to use the USPS to ship the cases out? Or is there going ot be other options?

 

[nb14]

Coming back to M1, I am still a bit hesitant to wether I should wait for new Mac Pro specs, tests and prices as it is a direct competitor to M1 build in my view.

Im in the boat as you buddy. Currently building a itx hackintosh in another small case. Then Apple announced the new Mac Pro and i have no idea what to do. Think im still going to buy a Ncase M1 anyway, even if its sits in its box for a year until i fancy another build.

So i might end up with Ncase M1, my current in-progress itx build and a Mac Pro.
Could turn one of them into a home server i suppose .

 

[wonderfield]

*in current NCASE poll results

 

[Phuncz]

@W360, Is the plan to use the USPS to ship the cases out? Or is there going ot be other options?

I hope you forgot to mention you are an American and you do not wish USPS on all those people outside of the US as well, because USPS is a bad option in my experience as a European. Slow, expensive and no own customs agent. My last package trough USPS took 5 weeks to deliver because of the national customs agent doing his job once a month. Comparable package from the same country with FedEx = a few days and not needing to call 4-5 different numbers to find out where my package actually is.

I hope for Europe (and other countries outside of the US) we get to choose FedEx, UPS or most desirably a Europe-based (for Europeans) shipping center, so we don't have to deal with those extremely annoying customs.

 

[Curlyriff]

"United Kingfom" I assume should be United Kingdom