NCASE M1: a crowdfunded Mini-ITX case (updates in first post)

[mcbowler]

I hope this fits with a large GPU.

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/CoolerMaster/V550S/11.html

 

[The_Cheese]

I hope this fits with a large GPU.

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/CoolerMaster/V550S/11.html

I would say that will be a tight fit, if it fits at all... my experience trying to fit a modular ATX power supply and a large GPU was that there isn't enough room in there for both of them in the same place at the same time.

 

[commander_]

I hope this fits with a large GPU.

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/CoolerMaster/V550S/11.html

It is 140mm deep with non-modular wires so technically it can fit... but the HDD/SATA power connectors are modular so... my guess is no.

 

[Necere]

can somebody explain to me why everybody goes for the SilverStone ST45SF-G and beefy graphics cards, when the ST45SF-G can only supply 450 watt ?

Because it's the highest wattage SFX power supply available.* With your planned setup, you'll only be able to use an SFX PSU. I would say it should be able to run the the GTX580 and 280X without issue; the 290X is pushing its limits, however.

*That has been tested and confirmed to be of good quality and deliver at its rated output. There are some others that are higher rated (Athena, Diablotek), but there's not much known about them currently. They may also not fit the M1 perfectly, since they are slightly larger than the SFX spec.

 

[Zef Pomp]

Can my ST45SF-G handle a 780 Ti?

 

[Necere]

Can my ST45SF-G handle a 780 Ti?

Good question. The relative numbers for power draw aren't all that consistent between reviews:

(Techreport)

In theory, it should be able to handle all the single GPU cards, as even the highest reported power draws are <450W, which is for the complete system measured at the wall. But then there are reports of the 290X shutting causing the ST45SF-G to shutdown running Furmark... which probably shouldn't be surprising, actually. Furmark represents a worst-case scenario, something you're very unlikely to encounter under normal usage.

I think if you're not OC'ing and/or trying for stability in Furmark, you could probably run any of the single GPU cards without a problem on the ST45SF-G.

 

[The_Gunslinger]

have to admit, i am tempted to consider one of the asus mini cards like this 670, athough they do a 760 version which i can get for £90 less, but not sure which will be best for me, especially as i'm not a gamer really, and i know the 700 series cards are supposed to have a h.264 encoder built in which could come in handy

I just think this would be ideal in this case especially with an asus impact board

 

[Topweasel]

I am pretty sure the 670 mini and the 760 are performance wise the same chip. So 760 if it adds features to the card.

 

[Zangmonkey]

I'm standing at an EVGA booth looking at their hadron system... Has anybody looked at this PSU?

500w gold in a tiny ( custom) form factor....

 

[okwchin]

But the 670 mini is the quieter of the two, if you dont need the additional features, for a similar performance.

Indeed the question of sfx psu vs compact atx is like having one or the other but not both, in that a sfx is power limited, preventing your monster gpu from running,, while an atx psu gives you the silence and power but prevents you installing your monster gfx to utilise that power.

 

[adamantium]

Silver NCASE M1 #852 arrived safe and sound this morning. It looks even better in the flesh. Easily one of the best looking PC cases I have seen in my 20-something years of computing and computers as a hobby.

So kudos to Necere and Wahaha360 - this project has been an absolute triumph so far. And kudos to everyone on this forum. Friendliness, knowledge, and just a general willingness to help with even the most trivial of things make it a pleasure to be a part of.

Daavee, I noticed your comment on the spreadsheet that you got black feet with your silver case. Is that correct? Did anyone else get the same? Maybe there is hope.

 

[Phuncz]

I'll repost this as people seem to have missed this:

My current system at default idle in Windows:

100% Loaded with FurMark:

Runs between 340-370W. I'll see you all on the flipside. Flipside being after I built my PC into the Ncase :-P

This was on this system:

&#9679; Coolermaster Elite 130
&#9679; Asrock Z87E-ITX
&#9679; Intel Core i5-4670K
&#9679; Noctua NH-L12
&#9679; 2x 8GB Crucial VLP 1600MHz
&#9679; AMD Radeon R9 290X (reference)
&#9679; Samsung 830 256GB SSD
&#9679; Seasonic G-series 550W PSU

Mind you, I'm on the 230V net, this might give better results. I also have no extra case fans, HDD's or overclocks. I'll be doing more testing soon.
Running BF4 yielded results around 310W I believe but I couldn't monitor it continuously while playing.

 

[okwchin]

May I also ask what fan profile you were running at the time?

 

[Necere]

I'm standing at an EVGA booth looking at their hadron system... Has anybody looked at this PSU?

500w gold in a tiny ( custom) form factor....

It's actually a pretty standard 1U server power supply made by FSP, I believe. The only things customized for the Hadron, AFAIK, are the fan profile and probably the cables.

Daavee, I noticed your comment on the spreadsheet that you got black feet with your silver case. Is that correct? Did anyone else get the same? Maybe there is hope.

No, he didn't get the case with black feet -- he traded them with another guy that wanted the silver on his black case.

I'll repost this as people seem to have missed this:

Well, proof's in the the pudding, isn't it
How's the noise level on the stock cooler?

 

[JedixJarf1]

Wow, that is a slick looking case!

 

[AFD]

Daavee, I noticed your comment on the spreadsheet that you got black feet with your silver case. Is that correct? Did anyone else get the same? Maybe there is hope.

Nope. Daavee & Hudbox were talking about trading feet yesterday, so his silver case definitely came with silver feet.. they must've traded already.

Personally, I think the silver feet looks much nicer on both the silver and black cases.

Just wanted to give thumbs up to Digistor and AFD for working on this deal.

Thanks! Glad I was able to help

 

[adamantium]

No, he didn't get the case with black feet -- he traded them with another guy that wanted the silver on his black case.

Nope. Daavee & Hudbox were talking about trading feet yesterday, so his silver case definitely came with silver feet.. they must've traded already.

Personally, I think the silver feet looks much nicer on both the silver and black cases.

With work and all of the messages coming through this week, I didn't get as much time to ponder and mull over the messages. Sorry I missed the connection -- thanks.

Everyone... there is no hope!

I guess I will have to order some new ones from the link provided once the company has relocated, or trade panels between my black and silver as previously planned.

 

[Necere]

Everyone... there is no hope!

I guess I will have to order some new ones from the link provided once the company has relocated, or trade panels between my black and silver as previously planned.

We're actually going to see about sending replacement feet to people that got silver and wanted black.

 

[Machupo]

Just a reminder: update the googledoc

 

[mcbowler]

In theory, it should be able to handle all the single GPU cards, as even the highest reported power draws are <450W
.

Nice chart thanks! I still want a full size quiet 140mm PSU if possible to power a large GPU. I'm really excited about this project. I hope it becomes a replicated model of success.

 

[adamantium]

I've been debating whether to call my build The Heart of Gold or Deep Thought, leaning towards the latter.

I'm more unoriginal. I'll call mine, The Black One and the other The Silver One.

Even if you removed its serial plate, the 0666 case would still be evil incarnate and constantly plotting ways to kill you in your sleep.

Thankfully, Adamantium is prepaired for such a challenge.. I heard from a reliable source that he designed his custom reservoir to handle holy water for exactly this reason.

Got to have host names. I've decided on Sith and Seraph. If I get the 666 serial number, then I will have to rename the black one to Diablo or 'that one way over there', and order a white acetal reservoir.

Sorry if this is irrelevant, those of use without new M1s have to pass the time.

 

[adamantium]

We're actually going to see about sending replacement feet to people that got silver and wanted black.

Everyone... there is much hope!

 

[slabhatnik]

have to admit, i am tempted to consider one of the asus mini cards like this 670, athough they do a 760 version which i can get for £90 less,....

If you're comfortable revealing your supplier - I would love to know the source for the asus direct cu 760, at 90 pounds less than the 670, albeit likely to include international shipping for myself, Only sources I've found list it at roughly double (260 USD and 520 +shipping) even after gimmicks like rebates on the cu 670.

 

[slabhatnik]

...

 

[AFD]

We're actually going to see about sending replacement feet to people that got silver and wanted black.

Could you mention to Lian Li (or their supplier) that some of us with black M1s are interested in purchasing silver feet?

I'd really like to keep my original black feet, and buy 2 silver sets (one to keep original, and another set to paint an antiqued bronze). Variety is the spice of life, right?

 

[Topweasel]

Could you mention to Lian Li (or their supplier) that some of us with black M1s are interested in purchasing silver feet?

I'd really like to keep my original black feet, and buy 2 silver sets (one to keep original, and another set to paint an antiqued bronze). Variety is the spice of life, right?

Good point on some level I like the idea of a completely blacked out case. But on the other hand I think the contrast of the silver feet making it look more distinguished.

 

[Phuncz]

How's the noise level on the stock cooler?

The GPU = Loud, even for me But in the heat of Battle(field 4), I don't hear it unless I focus on it.
The PSU = What ? I can't hear what you're saying because the GPU fan is so loud !

 

[ipuoL]

Phuncz what CPU temps do you have with the Noctua? Did you OC it?

 

[okwchin]

Soo many people are using the asus m6 impact mobo. Where I am in Australia, this mobo is $350, compared to my $200 asrock (now $169). Price alone ruled out this mobo for me.

Essentially a free 120-240G SSD for having the asrock, or losing a SSD for the asus

 

[hydroforge]

Soo many people are using the asus m6 impact mobo. Where I am in Australia, this mobo is $350, compared to my $200 asrock (now $169). Price alone ruled out this mobo for me.

Essentially a free 120-240G SSD for having the asrock, or losing a SSD for the asus

Import bruv. If I were going Haswell, would definitely pick meself an Impact, but from Amazon or NCIX. Also looking to import a GTX 780 (or Ti) if one doesn't come up for cheap locally soon

 

[Hudbox]

Daavee, I noticed your comment on the spreadsheet that you got black feet with your silver case. Is that correct? Did anyone else get the same? Maybe there is hope.

He swapped feet with me as I had a Black M1 and wanted Silver feet.

 

[The_Gunslinger]

Soo many people are using the asus m6 impact mobo. Where I am in Australia, this mobo is $350, compared to my $200 asrock (now $169). Price alone ruled out this mobo for me.

Essentially a free 120-240G SSD for having the asrock, or losing a SSD for the asus

The gigabyte boards are nice, and have some good features, but no mSATA slot, and the skt is a bit too close to the PCIe skt for my liking, but you can always use a water block with it

I personally am looking either at the Impact, or the ASRock board, because i'd like the extra skt for an ssd card, but i dont really need all of the overclocking abilities of the Asus board, and the asus implementation of the M.2 (NGFF) skt is a bit suspect, regarding throughput capacity. Dua/Combi card is a must for wifi and Bluetooth, and the sound board is a nice touch on the Asus board, both have some of the better positioned cpu skts, and the BIOS is supposed to be good on the AsRock board too

 

[The_Gunslinger]

I guess I will have to order some new ones from the link provided once the company has relocated, or trade panels between my black and silver as previously planned.

eh ??? .... or you could just unscrew the feet and swap them between the cases, thus maintaining the case colour linked serial numbered chassis with the correct coloured panels !!!


Personally i never gave the feet much thought, black on black case looks ok, minimalist, not sure about chrome, i'd say if they weren't too expensive, like the extra top panel, i'd probably buy a set of chrome ones to keep in case i felt like a change

 

[okwchin]

The gigabyte boards are nice, and have some good features, but no mSATA slot, and the skt is a bit too close to the PCIe skt for my liking, but you can always use a water block with it

I personally am looking either at the Impact, or the ASRock board, because i'd like the extra skt for an ssd card, but i dont really need all of the overclocking abilities of the Asus board, and the asus implementation of the M.2 (NGFF) skt is a bit suspect, regarding throughput capacity. Dua/Combi card is a must for wifi and Bluetooth, and the sound board is a nice touch on the Asus board, both have some of the better positioned cpu skts, and the BIOS is supposed to be good on the AsRock board too

I'm a similar boat with my Asrock, been happy with the bios, cpu placement, and overall connector placements as they are superior to the gigabyte. Won't be utilising the overclock overheads of the asus, and also, well more importantly, have not heard of anyone having success with a hackintosh build with the Asus yet. My asrock is 99% operational as a hackintosh.

 

[daavee]

He swapped feet with me as I had a Black M1 and wanted Silver feet.

Yeah, I''ll remove that as it's just going to cause confusion. Sorry folks.

 

[daavee]

I'm a similar boat with my Asrock, been happy with the bios, cpu placement, and overall connector placements as they are superior to the gigabyte. Won't be utilising the overclock overheads of the asus, and also, well more importantly, have not heard of anyone having success with a hackintosh build with the Asus yet. My asrock is 99% operational as a hackintosh.

I actually bought a Z87I-Pro the other week to use in my M1 build but didn't like it. Loads of fan headers on the board, but you can only set the fans to a minimum of 60% (seriously Asus, wtf?) and the bluetooth didn't work with some of my peripherals. Neither one a deal-breaker necessarily as there were ways around those issues, but at more expense, and coupled with a high idle power draw (~20w more from the wall than my temporary matx B85M-E, which isn't desirable for a HTPC) I thought screw it - sold the Z87I-Pro, bought the Z87E-ITX, which has been great, but I now need to find a way of putting it in the M1 with a NH-L12 mounted. So either a heatpipe-up mount like Phuncz did, or, well, modding (mutilating) the heatsink itself

 

[WiSK]

Loads of fan headers on the board, but you can only set the fans to a minimum of 60% (seriously Asus, wtf?)(

Instead of using Fan Xpert, you can control the fan headers using SpeedFan software (it's free). It allows much more range on PWM fans and you can vary speeds based on more than just CPU core temp. Especially for a water cooling loop where GPU is included, it's important to take several different temperatures into account

 

[Phuncz]

I'll repost this as people seem to have missed this:

This was on this system:

&#9679; Coolermaster Elite 130
&#9679; Asrock Z87E-ITX
&#9679; Intel Core i5-4670K
&#9679; Noctua NH-L12
&#9679; 2x 8GB Crucial VLP 1600MHz
&#9679; AMD Radeon R9 290X (reference)
&#9679; Samsung 830 256GB SSD
&#9679; Seasonic G-series 550W PSU

Mind you, I'm on the 230V net, this might give better results. I also have no extra case fans, HDD's or overclocks. I'll be doing more testing soon.
Running BF4 yielded results around 310W I believe but I couldn't monitor it continuously while playing.

In response of:

Well, proof's in the the pudding, isn't it

I did some more tests to see how (in)accurate my meter is:

500W (ofcourse not exactly) halogen light with included power supply

40W light bulb - socket to AC

200W light bulb - socket to AC

So I conclude my meter isn't far off.

 

[okwchin]

My last mobo was an ASUS M4 Gene Z and the PWM controls also go down to 60%, while the voltage control goes down to 40%. I ignored the PWM headers and went for the 40% voltage control and made my own in line resistor speed reducers to get the idle speed down. This was my biggest reason for the asrock in the first place, confirmed by reading up on the manuals for the asus z87I board.

Loved how you can turn the fans OFF properly. Sad part is that I have already fried the fan controller on my asrock board Had to make my own hardware thermal controlled fan speed control, which works pretty well actually, and lets me set fan speeds for the GPU intake fans based on GPU temps!

(BTW, I needed a OS independent fan control, thus the bios level control was a Serious bonus for me, since I am running OSX 95% of the time. Plus, didn't want to load extra software that needed to load up at startup)

Regarding CPU heat sink orientation, How much worse is the heat pipe up orientation. This is Not recommended by Noctua, however in a test I read somewhere, there was no significant difference in performance in all 4 orientations. I have tried out my Noctua U9B in various orientations too, and find the differences to be small.


Back to heat pipe basics; Heat pipes work on evaporation of water at the heat source, and condensation of water at the cold areas (finned area). It is therefore ideal that water is readily Available at the hot end.

Two ways for water to get back to the hot end
1) Gravity - Gravity is a force pulling the water toward the ground. If your heat pipes are orientated favourably, with the heat source below the fins, gravity will help. If the heat pipe orientation is reversed, gravity will work Against you. The hot area will dry out and not have any water to evaporate, thus limiting the effectiveness of heat transfer Purely to conduction through the copper pipes. This is Significantly less effective, and thus your load temperatures skyrocket!!

2) Wicking - the process of capillary action assisting the fluid back to the hot end. Essentially this area is dry due to the evaporation of water away from it, so its like pouring water onto a paper towel, it will run along the paper as it wets the dryer end of the paper.
a) there are several types of wicks, but essentially the better types of wick will generate a greater the capillary force. The faster or the more effective the capillary action, the less effect gravity will have on the flow of water, and thus the less sensitive the heatpipe is to orientation.

b) Some wicks like grooved copper represent the lowest wicking force. This means orientation is VERY critical. Gravity is the primary method for water return. Because of the low wicking action, water can return very quickly though of orientated properly. Copper balls/powder work very well as a wick and represent a high end heat pipe wick. These are least gravity sensitive, and generally seen in now mid to higher end coolers.

c) Shape is also relevant, but wont go into that now.



As a tower heatsink (my U9B SE2), there are a few orientations that I had tested. Essentially, the two best and worst case scenarios are

1) "Best" - heat source bottom, fins above. This means the mobo is flat on the table, the fins above it.
For a given 1200 rpm on 92mm x2 fans, Prime 95 for at least 20 mins gave a load temp of 66-67 degrees.

2) "Worst" - Heat source above, fins below. Mobo is horizontal, bottom up. This is supposed to be the worst case scenario where the water is at the fin end, the wrong end, and gravity is completely working against the capillary forces. If capillary forces are weak, then the water will fail to wick its way back to the CPU fast enough to keep the CPU end "wet", and the heat pipes therefore fail to function as a vapour change heat conductor.
For a given 1200rpm on 92mm x2 fans, Prime 95 for 20 mins gave a load temp of 67-68 degrees. Airflow though this case should not be vastly different in either orientation as the case is fairly symmetrical.

3) "OK" - with the computer in its tower configuration with the heatpipes horizontal. In this orientation, the heatsink should operate somewhere between the two.
For a given 1200pm on 92mm x2 fans, Prime 95 for 20 mins gave a load temp of 66-67 degrees.

Results - the Noctua heatsink is relatively orientation Insensitive. The results show a small difference in temperature, but the difference is not of any statistical significance when taking in to account the possible external factors such as ambient temp, airflow variances and measurement accuracy. Result = the Noctua heatsink is Not significantly affected by orientation.

Discussion - my testing was relatively basic, but with a fairly controlled case airflow scheme (not significantly orientation sensitive) the validity of the test I would consider to be fair. Of note is my relatively low CPU TDP of about 65 watts because of a 0.3v undervolted CPU. This is believed to be significant as the rate of water flow due to capillary action is in my testing, likely to be equal to or greater than the evaporation rate at the CPU side. This is evaporation rate is directly linked to the TDP of the processor. I would believe that there is a maximum capillary rate, determined by the evaporation rate and gravity. This I would expect to be outdone by an increased evaporation rate by increasing TDP. Essentially what this means is that a Higher TDP processor may change the result. An Overclocked processor might mean the orientation becomes important as the capillary rate is not enough to keep the CPU area "wet".

Conclusion - More testing needs to be conducted by users with Overclocked processors with higher TDPs, but at lower TDPs, I would not be too worried with a modern Noctua heatsink. The temperature of the air your feeding the noctua, the airflow design of your build, and what cooler you use has more effect on temperatures.

 

[AFD]

Just a heads-up to anyone else doing an aircooled M1.. Newegg has the Noctua NH-C12P SE14 on sale today for $65 w/free S&H. Checkout using their mobile app/website w/MBLNOV9 for another 10% off, which brings the price to only $59.

That's the cheapest I've seen the C12 go for all year