Navi discussion thread

Discussion in 'AMD Flavor' started by TheRookie, Jun 11, 2019.

  1. TheRookie

    TheRookie Limp Gawd

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    Since a lot of information about Navi is now available (not just rumors), it's now time to start a new thread.
     
  2. sabrewolf732

    sabrewolf732 2[H]4U

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    My take:

    Price is fair at $449 for right above 2070 performance (dare I say within 5% of 1080ti performance?). 2070s today are going to $485-$550 on newegg.

    If the projected numbers are accurate, and AMD has been pretty truthful about benchmarks since ryzen imo, sort of makes the radeon VII unnecessary unless you need the compute.

    I think ball is in nvidias court with the possible super refresh.
     
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  3. Decko87

    Decko87 [H]ard|Gawd

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    I think it's fair, but I bet Nvidia just undercuts them on price or the super is slightly better at the same price. The other thing is they're still losing the power consumption battle.
     
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  4. illli

    illli [H]ard|Gawd

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    I don't know... NV really, reallyyyy doesn't like dropping prices. Maybe they'll do it to clear out the cards if those supers get announced. Otherwise maybe a new game bundle to add 'value' to the purchase.
     
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  5. sabrewolf732

    sabrewolf732 2[H]4U

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    1440p performance extrapolated using AMD performance % gain vs rtx 2070 and guru3d 1660ti review


    Battlefield V:

    Radeon VII 117fps
    RTX2070 88fps
    RTX2080 106fps
    1080ti 98fps
    Vega 64 89fps
    vega 56 82fps
    Navi 107 fps (88*1.22)


    Shadow of the Tomb Raider


    Radeon VII 82fps
    RTX2070 66fps
    RTX2080 84fps
    1080ti 78fps
    Vega 64 61fps
    Vega 56 54fps
    Navi 64fps (66*.97)


    Metro Exodus

    Radeon VII 58fps
    RTX2070 47fps
    RTX2080 62fps
    1080ti 57fps
    Vega 64 49fps
    Vega 56 45fps
    Navi 54fps (47*1.15)


    Farcry New Dawn


    Radeon VII 108fps
    RTX2070 89fps
    RTX2080 109fps
    1080ti 104fps
    Vega 64 89fps
    Vega 56 76fps
    Navi 93fps (89x1.05)


    Witcher III


    Radeon VII 93fps
    RTX2070 86fps
    RTX2080 111fps
    1080ti 108fps
    Vega64 79fps
    Vega56 67fps
    Navi 90fps (86*1.05)

    seems like according to the performance gains showed by amd, navi occasionally nips at the heels of the radeon VII. This would indicate that RDNA did indeed improve IPC especially in light of the reduced CU count and similar clock speeds.

    Before everyone goes criticizing everything, this is just guess work based on what amd showed, also the numbers they showed for Radeon VII were accurate.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
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  6. Mav451

    Mav451 [H]ardness Supreme

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    Buildzoid was fairly pessimistic regarding Navi, but mostly as an overclocker.
    - BIOS locked due to security concerns.
    - No longer able to do custom power play tables, power limit (AMD driver pulling from registry instead); was this a big factor in previous gens?
    Note - I wasn't aware that RTX series was so locked down regarding power limit except the 2080Ti. But I mean, this is already a long time coming with nVidia's multiple 'boost' iterations that, if I recall, already took away voltage control long ago.
    - Essentially Navi is as equally locked down as nVidia cards?

    Now tbf, I've never done anything beyond air-cooling for GPUs, so maybe his criticism isn't founded for most end-users who are happy to just install something and call it a day.

    Can any other recent AMD GPU users chime in? I think my last ATi card was the 9800 Pro lmao.
     
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  7. JRZoid

    JRZoid [H]Lite

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    just some affordable designated 4k card dude...I think most are looking for a go to upgrade that's not gonna break the bank dude...
    We've had 2k covered mostly for some time..but no dude People don't want to make like a house Payment and the card is left in the dust shortly after either....

    It's like I was thinking about Vega...now that don't look as appealing and low clocks and runs hot...
    The 1660/1660ti is looking Nice man, something like that. I have 0 issues with that Price on both and yeah that's drop in upgrade...
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  8. Pieter3dnow

    Pieter3dnow [H]ardness Supreme

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    You think that this would "translate" to Anthem ?
    ***Never mind it seems it is a little bit different .
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  9. Auer

    Auer Gawd

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    Are both on Frostbite? If so I guess it would come very close. Also there's DLSS but that's not for your camp quite yet.
     
  10. kirbyrj

    kirbyrj [H]ard as it Gets

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    Dude...I guess I agree about the house payment, Dude. There is no such thing as an affordable 4k card, dude. At best you're going to get a used 1080Ti to hold you over as that's really the cheapest 4k, dude abiding, card you can buy in that dude approved price range.
    abide-detail.jpg
     
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  11. noko

    noko [H]ardness Supreme

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    If there are plenty of Navi to sustain demand so pricing is around $449 then that is a fair price, not a great price. The 5700 which is utterly a superior card over the 2060 at $379, if readily available is decent, if it was $349 I would call it a great price. Since they do come with games that is very nice.

    For Vega 56/64 owners, it will most likely be a past for most. While waiting for Nvidia next generation and Navi big which should come out before Nvidia next generation. At least AMD will have something out before Nvidia and if it beats the 2080Ti and at a decent cost should do well. The question becomes when? Also how much of Arch improvement for RDNA over Navi 10 will there be? If any. Also will it be HBM2, DDR6 or a hybrid with HBM2+ (using HBCC with DDR 6)? DXR (On chip or separate chiplets)? Since big Navi will have to compete at some point against Nvidia 7nm card, whenever it will be, will it handily beat the 2080 Ti?

    This year has been by far the most boring period for Enthusiasts in my opinion. I hope Nvidia steps up their 7nm cards and get RTX significantly improved as well.
     
  12. ChadD

    ChadD 2[H]4U

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    Not sure I would count on it much. I think the next few years Enthusiasts are going to be getting cut out. Nvidia and Intel will both be hunting for streaming partners. The next big archs are going to tip toward being super scalable.

    What we already know about Intels new arch via their super computer wins... they are not looking to make one super insane fast bit of silicon but a smaller bit that can work in tandem. AMD is going to go this way for sure when they spin RDNA into chiplets. (not this gen but the following one).

    NV is likely to go the same way.... The high end is doomed long term. Streaming is going to siphen so much of the potential high end eye candy market.... that the tippy top of the GPU pile will just keep going up and up in price, and if they still are not capable of providing "enthusiasts" with = eye candy to what people are seeing form the streaming platforms. I would imagine the market will just die a slow price ever increasing death.

    A spin off I wonder what the streaming push over the next 3-5 years is going to mean for VR. I assume its going to mean VR is only going to get more and more expensive for fairly minor upgrades as far as pixel pushing goes. I don't expect the top of the line GPUs 3 years from now will be much faster then what we got.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  13. noko

    noko [H]ardness Supreme

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    I am not so sure Nvidia has many options where they are losing market share in everything except PC gaming cards. Their bread and butter maybe PC graphics in the near future. I hope their more than expected sluggish sells with RTX puts some fire under their collective asses and they push out a worthy bunch of PC centered master race gaming cards.

    Now on a side note, streaming platforms with RTX??? I don't see that taking off, if games or gamers become mostly streamers, Nvidia will be in the hurts.

    AMD with their server, GPU business - streaming is a perfect fit for them especially in that they already have hardware GPU virtualizations ability. Will AMD push PC gaming cards? Navi big?
    https://www.amd.com/en/graphics/workstation-virtual-graphics
     
  14. Auer

    Auer Gawd

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    So AMD's future success is directly tied in to the demise of PC gaming?
     
  15. ChadD

    ChadD 2[H]4U

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    For sure it will be an interesting few years... in that it will either be real boring or real exciting for PC gamers. Sadly seeing the game publishers and developers salivate over streaming I am not that hopeful that PC master race stuff will even be a thing in 5 or so years.

    ID software has already said they are getting excited by streaming... because it will be the only platform really capable of cranking up eye candy (including Ray Tracing stuff) We saw the Cry ray tracing demo running on Vega 56 not that long ago... imagine a blade of Vega 7nm load sharing and serving that type of stuff up.

    To be honest its hard for me to feel sorry for NV in the end. They where positioned to really lead the charge to drive ARM main stream... and put real GPU power in lay persons hands. Instead they burned so many partners it seems no one wants to work with them (other then Nintendo... and I am sure they just saw a value deal). After their deal with Intel they had couldn't have done anything to screw up their company with Intel gifting them 300 million in profit a quarter. In fairness I guess they bet on AI which wasn't a terrible bet and which may still pay off long term. They could have done a lot more with their ARM cores though if they had really focused on that... and on taking care of partners wanting to use those parts. NV really should have been the goto chip for every high end mobile part... but they didn't form the right partnerships. From there we could have been seriously talking about Arm based Chrome machines that where not just value parts. They could have even done what Qualcom tried with MS getting ARM windows going.

    Of course 10 years from now even if streaming takes off NV could still end up the overall winner. I'm sure Intel is hunting for some Google competition they can power in the streaming market. If NV is the last to the party... who knows the horse they pick might benefit from seeing where google/MS and all the rest came up short. Someone is going to become the netflix of gaming... the publishers want it, the developers are starting to see it as well. Not sure it will be Google or MS... who knows perhaps Nvidia hitches their wagon to Amazon at some point. That might be a really good fit honestly. NV and Amazon both have a ton of ARM experience. I could almost see in 3 years from now Amazon announcing a gaming service powered by ARM cores designed in house or some form of Tegra... and some more modular GPU after ampere.
     
  16. noko

    noko [H]ardness Supreme

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    I hope not! It may turn out that Intel and AMD push the streaming business since that would be a whole new market that just opened up. Maybe main reason Intel started to be serious with GPU design. AMD would be able to sell expensive server type CPU's, chipsets/motherboards and GPU's with much larger purchase numbers per customer compared to the PC. Would AMD want to show that their desktop cards make the streaming service look much lower quality? How would Nvidia responds with only a GPU and Intel no longer interested using third party solutions? Vega was over a year late after Pascal but it was top down. Navi will be almost a year late after Turing but with no top performing cards, unless you count Vega Vii. AMD may indeed be shifting to a very lucrative streaming service where they can provide both the CPU/GPU/Chipsets and other stuff which I am sure Microsoft, Sony and others will start competing with Google in the near future. Unless the gaming model turns out to be a flop. PC gaming may become small fry really quick.
     
  17. Factum

    Factum [H]ard|Gawd

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  18. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I could handle it for some games- but man, most of what I play is reaction based, and that's a no go.
     
  19. kirbyrj

    kirbyrj [H]ard as it Gets

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    Even if there was a solution to the lag problem, you'd need some way to render all those images. I don't think AMD or Nvidia will really be hurt by cloud gaming.
     
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  20. Factum

    Factum [H]ard|Gawd

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    Physics means it will never replace PC gaming...physics mean it's a very limitied market = no big profits...it won't help them either ;)
     
  21. kirbyrj

    kirbyrj [H]ard as it Gets

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    $299/$399 would have been great prices.
     
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  22. rinaldo00

    rinaldo00 [H]ard|Gawd

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    If these boards sell out then the current prices are great prices. If they do not sell out AMD can lower the prices to increase sales.
     
  23. Peppercorn

    Peppercorn Limp Gawd

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    On price/perf alone the 2700 XT and 2700 are the card to purchase if looking to spend $450 or $349. Only the fanbois are going to think: well i'd like to spend $450 but I guess i can spend an extra $50 and get lower performance.

    If there needs to be any other reason, there are plenty like better software/drivers, Freesync, Freesync 2, Radeon is the most widely adopted GPU in the gaming industry at over 400 million so game devs will certainly optimize for Radeon GPUs. Even more so now with XBox Scarlet and PS5 using Zen and Navi cores.
     
  24. Pieter3dnow

    Pieter3dnow [H]ardness Supreme

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    You might want to edit this :) to 5700 :)

    Or have a flash back to Vega 64 and 56 launch :) 2 years ago. Nearly same price nearly same performance that is not much progress in 2 years.

    The weakest argument you can make on forums is calling people fanboys or other equivalent when you have no point to make.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
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  25. noko

    noko [H]ardness Supreme

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    PC gaming, not initially but consoles who crowd are rather use to 30fps - you bet.

    The example in the article Boston to LA - Really? How about most internet providers in conjunction with Google has a server only miles away from you? Not that will be the case initially but Google network currently for at least US residents will have servers relatively close. As for taking the PC gaming away, it will add new players who budgets don't really allow for a top end PC gaming machine or mid range nor the hassles of updating. Cheap or old or tablet and maybe smart TV's (future ones particularly) will have rendering way beyond what their hardware could ever support using Stadia. Then again Google will not be the only one so there will be more servers from multiple sources close to many.

    Lag is the only one aspect to gaming which can be minimized. There are many aspects, game availability, cost, ease of use, quality, versatility, participation and growth of developers in a new ecosystem. You are looking at an explosion of gaming at a rate that has never happened before. PC gaming is not stagnant and still is growing but the rate of increase is not high. Google Stadia and Microsoft Netflix for Game (internal name), plus Amazon plus others will have servers basically right next door in which lag may not even be an issue for most folks.

    https://www.techradar.com/news/stad...-to-know-about-googles-game-streaming-service

    https://www.xfinity.com/hub/internet/how-to-reduce-lag-and-opitmize-your-online-gaming-performance

    There maybe a point where the huge gaming infrastructure, hardware capability will exceed anything you could buy and build for home use for rendering games, leave that as a future possibility. Real 100% ray traced everything games with realistic physics, not talking about Quake II but a real future game consuming more rendering power than 10 2080 Ti's rendering capability being displayed from you cheap Chromebook to your 4K TV. Also Linux users, Apple users will have access to games that are limited to Windows only, just more ways of looking at this.

    Netflix and other streaming services made Blockbusters of the world basically go out of business, DVD's and BluRays almost obsolete - Streaming games will have a big impact on PC gaming hardware that we can buy in the future. Consoles even more and the PS5 and XBox next maybe the last. In 5 years, the cost of the 2080Ti today may be considered cheap to what it will take to beat the game streaming providers quality. Just remember all these streaming services will improve over time at a rapid pace especially if the number of providers are large for competition.

    What does this have to do with Navi, probably everything as well as Intel getting into the GPU business besides APU's. RDNA will probably support game streaming in the future in a big way, some of the architecture improvements I do believe are or will be design for this in mind. Google choosed AMD for Stadia - Why? That did not just happen by accident. AMD has a big jump on packing density into their solutions combined with a whole solution package of CPU's and GPU's which Lisa Sue continues to express. Some big bets are paying off.

    Big Navi is the real secret sauce that may blow the doors open, Why? Start combining some of the technology AMD has developed and start seeing potential combinations: Chiplets (raytrace, AI, physics . . .) are all possible to keep the costs way down on the very small node process. Infinity fabric progress and updates continue and ties everything together. High Bandwidth Cache Controller: Tech that is only useful when you can have your high bandwidth but yet can use low cost memory, lower bit busses on simpler lower cost cards without sacrificing the bandwidth. For example: HMB2 in combination of GPU and chiplets for raytracing/AI with a wide bus such as 3072 bit, 4096bit (or more) 3gb, 6gb or 4gb, 8g + and using HBCC going to a 256bit DDR 6 ram of 8gb or more, even cheaper DDR 5 could be used but much of it for larger configurations. If that does not sound ideal for a gaming server, high density, high bandwidth where needed, cheap cost and very much expandable memory footprint to terabytes of data which actually can be shared between multiple GPU's then what is? Nvidia does not have this capability, AMD does and looks like Google and probably others will be sold on it. Navi desktop is only a small subset of the design, Navi will probably end up being used in some fashion more than any other gaming GPU, actually RDNA naming (Recombinant DNA in biology terms) is perfect in describing what starts out to be Navi. I think we are looking at a larger than Zen event here at AMD in the GPU side.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
  26. stashix

    stashix Limp Gawd

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    "...and I base that on absolutely nothing"
     
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  27. JRZoid

    JRZoid [H]Lite

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    Vega was new ideas dude and HBM2. but really was counting on future titles and undeveloped shit yet to be known to really shine...But enthusiast and a lot gamers want better and better Performance NOW.
    That said Id still like to get one you can get a remanufactured one a PowerColor for only $240...
     
  28. reaper12

    reaper12 2[H]4U

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    What will PC gaming/console gaming even mean in the future? TV's and monitors are already blurring into the one thing. Microsoft have finally allowed the use of Keyboard/mouse with their consoles.

    The consoles that are coming are more PC like than ever before.

    Soon there won't be console gaming or PC gaming, it will just be gaming.
     
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  29. Factum

    Factum [H]ard|Gawd

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    Leaving of the real world again?

    You have never btw answered to the lies/ignorance you posted here:
    https://hardforum.com/threads/why-d...-nvidias-bad-hardware-implementation.1982557/

    But I guess you abscence is an answer in it self? ;)
     
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  30. Factum

    Factum [H]ard|Gawd

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    No way in hell I would settle for Console-performance/Image quality (or lack thereof)....
     
  31. MangoSeed

    MangoSeed Limp Gawd

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    You're probably right that in the distant future streaming will grab a big chunk of the market. About the rest though, don't think I've ever seen so much wishful thinking in one post. There's nothing known or speculated about the architecture that would give it an edge in cloud gaming. Certainly the power efficiency on 7nm isn't anything to shout about.
     
  32. kirbyrj

    kirbyrj [H]ard as it Gets

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    You might not, but some 150 million Xbox One/PS4 owners did... So do they cater to the small niche market or to the 150 million console buyers?
     
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  33. noko

    noko [H]ardness Supreme

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    Navi brings new Architecture, RDNA - How it is designed will tell more on AMD big bets for the future. Ryan Smith has some tidbits that look very promising, a more indebt look will come later.
    https://www.anandtech.com/show/14528/amd-announces-radeon-rx-5700-xt-rx-5700-series

    Google which is working with AMD dealing with Stardia is also working with Starnet (oops I mean Starlink/Elon Musk SpaceX project to fund Mars endeavors). Anyways Starlink is low latency Satellite (thousands of them) in low earth orbit to provide Broadband eventually to the world. As a note the speed from the satellite data wise travels at the speed of light to the receiving station. Below video first 10-12 minutes is a good rundown of system and actual deployment of 60 satellites for this, several more launches are planned for this year.


    Others, as in Amazon is also working on a low earth orbit satellite system for Broadband as well - streaming games etc.

    So PC gaming is safe for now but gaming will just explode more than it ever has overall.
     
  34. noko

    noko [H]ardness Supreme

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    Maybe more crystal ball thinking vice wishful. There will be massive inclusion of Broadband by mid 2025, many areas where PC gaming is not even a thought or a very low market for it. AMD has to use their own Crystal ball or really their connections to figure out the best course of action. Will AMD scrap by competing with Nvidia on the PC front? They already won with Console market, if they win with the Streaming market, their GPU's better suited for massive GPU gaming networking stations serving billions of folks -> I would assume AMD is smart and go for selling the most GPU's -> Vega had some very unique features that is now going to be used by Goggle Stadia. Anyways I am much more interested in big Navi and what the underneath Architecture has, it will tell much where the industry thinks it needs to go.
     
  35. noko

    noko [H]ardness Supreme

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    Plus over time it will improve which the improvements could be faster then from one generation to the next of consoles. PC gaming I would think is still rather safe for the next 5 years with the introduction of stream gaming but once the infrastructure, acceptance, ability expands I do not know. It is like DVD's and BluRays and even buying CD's - just not relevant anymore.
     
  36. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Blu-rays are still relevant because they carry 10x the information of a stream- and yes, you can tell easily with even pedestrian hardware.

    In the same way, streaming won't be there for many games. They can try, but you're not going to overcome the handicap for anything that requires user reaction. Always being 50ms to 100ms behind isn't going to endear the technology.

    That's some grade-A FUD!

    Software drivers? Nope. Even more into question when AMD brings out a new architecture. They have a long and storied history of screwing this up.

    Freesync? Nope. Runs on Nvidia better than AMD.

    Most widely-adopted GPU? Console ASICs don't count, and if you're talking about GPUs in appliances, you're completely missing the mobile segment. On the desktop, which just happens to be the topic, AMD has less than one-fifth of the market. Oh, and having that console base hasn't done jack for AMD's desktop performance. We can expect future consoles to be even further behind as their graphics are going to be even more technologically outdated on release given how poorly AMD has handled ray tracing hardware (i.e., not at all).
     
  37. Imhotep

    Imhotep Gawd

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    Pc Gaming is safe. Stadia will simply be another way to play certain games. Think about the costs to replace all the cloud hardware while enthusiasts can grab a single card. That said pc will drive new tech while the cloud (Stadia) will always play catch up.
    It will be exactly the same situation we have now with consoles while some people settle for consoles others cant wait to spend their cash on pc hardware. Pc gaming is not going anywhere. It will drive new tech and innovation that will be adopted by cloud just like consoles adopt it every new generation.
    I don't think gaming industry gives two fucks about Ray Tracing at the moment.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
  38. Auer

    Auer Gawd

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    Streaming totally transformed the music distribution model. Low-Fi is enjoyed by millions.

    "Spotify has compressed audio down to a bitrate of 160 kbps on desktop or 96 kbps on mobile devices — Spotify calls this rate “normal.” Paid subscribers also have a “high quality” option of 320 kbps audio on desktop."

    To me it sounds like garbage. But millions listen to it daily.

    Gaming seems to be next.
     
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  39. sabrewolf732

    sabrewolf732 2[H]4U

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  40. Factum

    Factum [H]ard|Gawd

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    You greatly underestimate the PC market...and the profit margins in that segment...