NAS or bigger server?

[Dangman]

I also noticed you went with 16GB RAM. I know you can't have "too much" but I was under the impression that 8GB was "good enough" for this use case ... I ask b/c I was only going to get 8 and this makes me wonder if I must up it.

If you can afford it, go for 16GB of RAM if you're going for a ZFS setup.

SO, are there any current thoughts here about the use of 3rd-party, drive-space-shrinking (e.g.,5 drives in 3 bays), hot-swap backplane modules in ATX boxes? If so, are any in particular great/horrible? What cases take them best with easy/no mods? Or just don't go there and only hot-swap when it's built into the case?

Here's what my thoughts: Whether or not you you should get those 5in3 modules is largely dependent on the following factors:
1) Whether or not you have an existing case you want to reuse
2) How badly you need hot-swap capabilities
3) How much money you can afford to spend and how long it will take you to have disposable income
4) Whether or not aesthetics is a huge factor
5) Whether or not size is a critical issue.
6) Whether or not cost-effectiveness is a huge factor.
7) How many hot-swap bays you really need.

So if you already have or really want a case that you really like, really need hot-swap capability but only 5, and can afford it, then go grab a 5in3 hot-swap module. I generally recommend Supermicro 5in3 hot-swap bay like this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817121405

If you don't have a case and really want cost-effectiveness with hot-swap, then I recommend the following cases:
$330 - NORCO RPC-4220 4U Rackmount Server Case
$430 - NORCO RPC-4224 4U Rackmount Server Case

The two are cost-effective IMO because they offer 20 and 24 hot-swap bays for $330 and $430 respectively. Typical 3rd party 5in3 hot-swap bays are around $85 to $100. Do the math. However with that said, if aesthetics and size are huge factors, then the above cases aren't exactly the best choices since they're not that great looking and are fairly large.

But if you don't need hot-swap and really want cost-effectiveness, I generally recommend this as you get 12 drive capability for really cheap:
$50 - NZXT Source 210 Elite Black ATX Case
$24 - Cooler Master STB-3T4-E3-GP 4 in 3 Device Module w/ 120mm Fan
-----
Total $74 shipped

 

[Nadd]

I chose the 620 because it was 50 dollars at microcenter. I found an extremely small usb stick to install the OS on. You can barely even see it when it's plugged in. I got 16GB because I like to overkill things, I'm sure 8GB is fine for what I have. I don't plan on expanding this box at all. If I need more I will go with a norco 4220 or 4224.

I have pictures at home, I'll throw them up here when I get home. If you have any more questions let me know.

This obviously isn't fully done in these pictures, I still had to put in the PSU and organize the cables a bit better.

 

[Drawmonster]

I purchased a Synology DS211J from Newegg and I absolutely love it. I am looking to purchase a DS411 after the new DS412 and DS412+ is released as last years model should be going on sale soon. If you get the 4 bay NAS from Synology you will get something that can:


-Store multimedia files (Music, Videos, Pictures, etc.)
I have my RAID1 configured 2tb drives storing all my music, videos, and pictures
-Remote access to these files over the internet, and LAN
Synology has Android Apps, IOS Apps, Web-based access with DynDNS Support, 'Cloud' Storage, and now VPN access with the DSM 4.0 update that just got released
-Send video/music to my PS3 for watching.
My roomate has a PS3 and as long as videos are in the correct codecs, the PS3 can play 1080p streaming video files without issue from the NAS
Possible backup of my main computer.
It also has backup software available at their Download Center for Windows, Mac, and Linux
Parity or loss-prevention (raid 1 or 5)
Synology Hybrid RAID would work well for 3 or more disks since it dynamically changes to allow drives to be added later in case you only have a couple to start with. It also has classic RAID options if you don't want it dynamic.
-24/7 always on, with as low consumption as possible
Check the Specs on any Synology Model to see the power consumption(usually 10-15W in hibernation and 35-45W being accessed)
-At least 3-4TB of space (I have around 2TB of data right now)
Get the 4 bay NAS and then you can upgrade to more drives later(DRIVES WILL NEED TO BE FORMATTED WHEN FIRST INSTALLED, BACKUP YOUR DATA FIRST!!!)

Pros:
-Free Android, iOS, and Web-based Apps to access Music, Pictures, and Files remotely
-'Cloud' Backup that acts like dropbox(syncs one folder with subfolders remotely)
-VPN Server
-DynDNS Support to access NAS remotely
-Synology Hybrid or regular RAIDs
-Backup through Windows, MAC, or Linux
-File sharing over Windows\SMB networks
-Easy user, file, server management
-Installable apps for the NAS to add functionality including: Antivirus, Download Station, Directory Service, DNS Server, etc...


Cons:
-Price(Synology does not come with any drives and they are kind of expensive right now)
Starting around $300-500 for mid range solutions without HDDs

You can also try a demo of the web-based NAS management software.

Just my suggestion though(from weeks of pain-staking internet research during breaks at work ). The DS211J I got has a 1.2ghz proc with 128mb of RAM and it can handle multiple users without issue. The newer NAS systems for this years models are quicker and go up to 1gb for the memory in the NAS\Server and 1.6-1.8 ghz processors. I was pleasantly surprised and the snappiness of the unit with such underpowering stats the DS211j has. Synology is absolutley wonderful with their software and ease of use. I was only planning on using it for files and then when I got it I found it was soooo much more than just another NAS. I got a couple of coworkers hooked on it already and one of them wants to get a 4 bay now too.

You seem to be knowledgeable about Synology. I'm thinking of getting the DS1511+ or the DS1512+. Can I start out with one drive, and increase it over time? I'm a noob when it comes to NAS and Servers. Also, say I pool a bunch of drives and have 10Tb. Once I share that drive with the network, could I have another computer using SABNZBD+ download directly to that drive? I'm on a gigabit network. I'm trying to figure out if I can keep my current SAB, Sickbeard, Couchpotato setup running on my HTPC, and just have it download directly to the NAS instead of it's local HD....

 

[Dangman]

Looking good there Nadd

 

[extide]

Check out my thread on my ZFS setup. The last post has explanation on the current setup.

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1684373

 

[WiiGame]

Danny - Thanks so much for taking the time and for this advice. You make some great points, so I'll attempt to clarify in line with your questions:

If you can afford it, go for 16GB of RAM if you're going for a ZFS setup.

Here's what my thoughts: Whether or not you you should get those 5in3 modules is largely dependent on the following factors:
1) Whether or not you have an existing case you want to reuse
2) How badly you need hot-swap capabilities
3) How much money you can afford to spend and how long it will take you to have disposable income
4) Whether or not aesthetics is a huge factor
5) Whether or not size is a critical issue.
6) Whether or not cost-effectiveness is a huge factor.
7) How many hot-swap bays you really need.

1) No present case. All my old cases are too old with bad ventilation. Probably just gotta get rid of them.
2) Actually hot-swap is not a "need" for me. I guess what I'm really looking for is ease of drive swap, even if cold (have no prob turning it off for this>>>). I plan to make regular backups of some drives by adding a new mirror, resilvering(?), then pulling it for off-site or weather-proof-safe storage. I'd just rather not crawl around and dismantle the case & cables, etc. etc, for this with any regularity ... I'll make fewer backups. So is there such a thing as a cold-swap backplane for less than the hotswap module below?
3) The $$ is already set aside. But I only want to spend for as much as I need. Basically, when I have a final spec/total, I'll see what the price diff is to hotswap or not to hotswap (that is the Q) and judge if $XX is worth the hotswapping to me.
4) Aesthetics matters not.
5) Size matters not. (Judge me by my size, do you?) OK, it can't be gargantuan; just right for what I'm putting in + airflow.
6) Cost-effectiveness is a huge factor, but so is getting it done "right" the first time and longevity.
7) How many hot-swap bays: Since I'm planning to have a rips-only raid pool and a mirror pool, only the mirrors will get backed up via #2 above, maybe up to 2 sets of mirrors later ... so maybe up to 5 or 6(?). Not 100% sure how that's all going to work yet.

So if you already have or really want a case that you really like, really need hot-swap capability but only 5, and can afford it, then go grab a 5in3 hot-swap module. I generally recommend Supermicro 5in3 hot-swap bay like this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817121405

If you don't have a case and really want cost-effectiveness with hot-swap, then I recommend the following cases:
$330 - NORCO RPC-4220 4U Rackmount Server Case
$430 - NORCO RPC-4224 4U Rackmount Server Case

The two are cost-effective IMO because they offer 20 and 24 hot-swap bays for $330 and $430 respectively. Typical 3rd party 5in3 hot-swap bays are around $85 to $100. Do the math. However with that said, if aesthetics and size are huge factors, then the above cases aren't exactly the best choices since they're not that great looking and are fairly large.

Thanks. I read "Norco! Norco! Norco!" a lot across the 'net so I'm familiar with their work and reputation, but for me I'd think that's overkill (I foresee 10-12 drives max, then upping the drive capacities over time from there) plus a lot more $$ than what I was thinking for a case ($100-150?). Plus, I don't have a rack. If I went w/ the Supermicro 5in3s, I'd max at 2, but maybe just 1. Yeah, I'll have to think more about that tradeoff.

But if you don't need hot-swap and really want cost-effectiveness, I generally recommend this as you get 12 drive capability for really cheap:
$50 - NZXT Source 210 Elite Black ATX Case
$24 - Cooler Master STB-3T4-E3-GP 4 in 3 Device Module w/ 120mm Fan
-----
Total $74 shipped

This may be more my speed. I was excited to see the 4in3 but it only condenses space (right?) and doesn't provide the ease-of-swap I was hoping for. I guess all this time I've been thinking that I need to find a consumer/tower case that lets me access 10-12 drives from the front without opening the case (with or without a module). Your advice challenges my thinking (thank you), so I find that I really want fewer swappable bays than originally thought (since I hope not to swap the drives-in-raid ... much). Case looks good, but I'll look for something similar w/o openings at the top (for things to fall in, and to allow putting things on top).


I'll go looking around, but if you already happen to know if there are cold-swap backplanes, or other cheaper ways of creating ease-of-swap (the Cooler Master came close), I'd deeply appreciate that. Thanks again!

Edit: Also, this just occurred to me ... I have an external drive dock. Anyone know if ZFS would allow me to drop one in over eSATA, config a new mirror, resilver, pull and continue? Could solve my aim.

 

[Dangman]

So is there such a thing as a cold-swap backplane for less than the hotswap module below?

Not really for cases. Not with the functionality of ease of hard drive removal AFAIK. Pretty much if you want ease of HDD installation, you're looking at hot-swap bays. Though those hot-swap bays can be used as cold-swap bays as well.

Thanks. I read "Norco! Norco! Norco!" a lot across the 'net so I'm familiar with their work and reputation, but for me I'd think that's overkill (I foresee 10-12 drives max, then upping the drive capacities over time from there) plus a lot more $$ than what I was thinking for a case ($100-150?). Plus, I don't have a rack. If I went w/ the Supermicro 5in3s, I'd max at 2, but maybe just 1. Yeah, I'll have to think more about that tradeoff.

You don't need a rack for the Norco cases: You can remove the handles on the front side of the case and stand the case up on its side like a normal ATX case. Right now Supermicro Hot-swap bays are $100 or so. So two of those would be $200. Then factor in the costs of the case, $100 to $150 as you origninally thought, and you're already mostly at the price point of a Norco. Hence why I said those Norcos are extremely cost-effective. It is probably overkill but it's simply one of the most bang for your buck

Case looks good, but I'll look for something similar w/o openings at the top (for things to fall in, and to allow putting things on top).

Yeah that's gonna be a tad hard as a lot of quality cases these days have openings at the top. With that said, here's a few to get you started:
$120 - Lian Li PC-9F ATX Case
$140 - Corsair Obsidian Series 550D ATX Case

 

[WiiGame]

Thanks so much (again) for the pointers, Danny.

Also, if anyone has knowledge on my edit about using an eSATA dock and mirroring to ZFS, that would help me determine a potential alternative to my hotswap direction.

 

[technerd11]

I recently bought a NAS box from Synology, and i am having a hard time deciding which hard drives to purchase for it. Despite my username, I am not very tech savvy, but i wanted your guys' opinion on which brand works best inside of NAS boxes? I've heard bad things about Seagate's drives and how they are not compatible with a NAS system. I just don't want to buy the wrong drive and end up getting screwed.

Any help would be appreciated... Thanks in advance!

 

[WiiGame]

if anyone has knowledge on my edit about using an eSATA dock and mirroring to ZFS, that would help me determine a potential alternative to my hotswap direction.

Actually, I'm still interested in this ... does anyone knowledgeable here know if you can take an existing ZFS 2-drive mirror to 3-drives (temporarily) when the 3rd drive is external via eSATA? Thanks!

 

[Billy_nnn]

Actually, I'm still interested in this ... does anyone knowledgeable here know if you can take an existing ZFS 2-drive mirror to 3-drives (temporarily) when the 3rd drive is external via eSATA? Thanks!

Yes, you can do it - though if you want to do this as a backup, then there are cleaner ways to do it.

 

[westrock2000]

Hopefully that will be enough processor power for PS3 Media Streamer. Originally my server was using a Pentium Q6600 and it would hiccup occasionally when transcoding 1080p content for the PS3. The server now has my hand-me-downs which a i7 920 which is plenty of power. My server barely ever gets above 3GB of memory used.

I just use Windows 7 on my server. It lets me run the applications I need for serving, like iTunes and PS3 Media Streameras well as Photo Gallery Live for organizing photos. I can then either mount folders (or entire drive) on other computers or use Home Group so that all the other computers in the house can access the data.

I also use Windows Remote Desktop to control the server from my main computer.I have found Remote Desktop to be the fastest VNC I have tried. Beats TightVNC hands down.

For encoding DVD's/BluRay's I have 4 optical drives on my main computer. I share the optical drives on the network and mount them on the server. I use Windows Remote Desktop and queue up Handbrake on both my main computer and my server and then I am able to encode 2 movies at the same time. Both computers dump the movies to a harddrive on the server.

DVD drives are so cheap, like $16 for OEM ones. Its nice being able to queue up half a season of a television show at once and just come back a couple hours later.

Just don't ever make the accident of trying to have 2 computers encode from the same DVD at the same time....you want to see what a long encode time is....

 

[aphex187]

Just wanted to chime in here. After using FreeNAS for 2 years last month I decided to build an unRAID box using some hardware laying around. Specifically I'm using the newer 5.0 version of unRAID with several plugins (including Plex for streaming).

What I like about it is:
+ It is Hardware independent (I can move the OS flash drive and 'array' to completely different hardware)
+ I can Mix and match hard drives
+ I have a parity drive so if I lose a drive, I can replace that drive and not lose any data.
+ I can have a cache drive to help speed a lot of daily tasks up (I use a 60GB SSD)
+ Low overhead and runs on older hardware
+ Plugin system with plenty of development and support community

The WebUI is a no-brainer to use and the system runs great. I'm using an old 2.2GHz Athlon64 w/ 2GB RAM and I don't have any problems with Plex streaming media to my iPad, Apple TV or anything else.

It may not be the prettiest box but I have to admit that for the money I've put into it I am incredibly happy with the results.

 

[Azhar]

I just finished replacing two 4TB BlackArmor 220 NAS with a server for flexibility and cost savings. NAS are expensive and with a well built computer, you would only need to add drives, not buy another whole unit. Here's my build I put together last week with six 2TB drives.

ASRock A75 Extreme 6 - because it has 8 SATA ports and enough PCI-E slots to add more SATA controllers if needed.

AMD A4-3300 Llano APU - because the storage server doesn't need that much power.

Crucial Ballistix 2x2GB DDR3-1600 RAM - because it's only $27

Fractal Design Define XL tower case - because there's 10 drive bays and I don't want to spend $300 on a storage server case. With a drive rail you can put in 5 more drive bays in the 5.25" slots as well. 15 drives all together.

Corsair CX430 V2 430W power supply - because you don't need that much power, and because it's rated 80 Plus.

The total came out to be $405.96 with UPS 3-day guaranteed shipping.

I used my Technet license of WHS 2011 with Stablebit Drive Pooler to create a single 12TB virtual drive out of the six 2TB drives, but there are many other alternatives - FreeNAS, Openfiler, FlexRAID and many many other choices. The key to building a server over buying a NAS or NAS enclosure is flexibility.

 

[WiiGame]

Yes, you can do it - though if you want to do this as a backup, then there are cleaner ways to do it.

Thanks, Billy. Yes, this would be for a rotating off-site backup; I would love a few (or at least one) example of a cleaner way to do this with ZFS, or even if link if you don't have the time to write something up. I like the sound of "cleaner" but I'm having trouble envisioning anything cleaner for my projected use/operation of this system without also making it significantly more expensive.

 

[WiiGame]

@westrock2000: I never would have given Windows Remote Desktop the time of day. I'll have to try that over TightVNC.

@aphex187: You made unRAID sound really tempting. In my case, though, what I'm storing is so important to me to not lose and always have in good condition, I'm still attracted by the promise of 24hr data integrity with ZFS.

@Azhar: I've been considering a Synology type thing, too, but I tend to agree with your thinking. Esp. after my longtime, unimpressed experience with a WD WorldBook (and painfully upgrading it w/ Samsung hardware).

 

[Plastikman]

In my opinion, it is usually cheaper to go the build your own server over a NAS.
Plus, you can usually get more bang for your buck if you know what apps to add to your server. While it is true Synology tosses a lot of bang into their NAS's you can find the same stuff for a server.

I wont discredit Synology or Qnap, the both make great (and not so great) products. For some people, it is a better choice.

It all comes down to time, money and tech comfort level..

Then the next question is always what size to build.
The recommended planing path is usually on your needs for about 2-3 years.
(digital hording can be contagious, be careful..) That is about when you need to start considering the lifespan of the drives and replacing them with much bigger drives that have gone down in price or building an new unit and demoting this unit to backups or ebay..

If you Choose the server route, you can expand your server if you outgrow it. Assuming your chassis allows it. With a NAS, you are sort of stuck and need to buy another.

Then the next issue is what OS/hardware combo.
Those two should be considered together based on what you plan to buy or what you already have. some OS's run better on certain builds.. or have known issues on certain hardware.

I'll comment here that ZFS is big on this forum, I wont argue it is a great data system. But... a 24 drive ZFS is not the best in my opinion for say a 24x7 media server (or for files that dont get accessed or change often in a home environment). for an enterprise or ultra important file server great. it is perfect.
(yes there is that bitrot argument..that is pretty rare and a media file wont care about a bit or two corrupted) not to mention, Power wise from the wall, it can be a hog.

A 16+ drive hardware RAID.. I'll say the same as i did about the ZFS.

There are alternatives, they really depend on your needs.. or what older stuff you have that you can reuse.

Maybe I'm an oddball..
I mix and match my data systems based on what I have and what I need.

I have 3 older win2k8 SFF 4+1 drive Chenbro mITX based servers with C2D'd and 4x 2TB Software raid5's that I outgrew in less then a year. i hardly ever use these now. They are usually in sleep mode. I did get them almost free so it is not a huge loss. they still have their uses though. for example one is now just xbox360 backups. but in general, I have little to no use for them anymore.

I have a windows 2k8 server with a hardware RAID6 (areca) in it with 8x 2TB. (primary ripping and DL sorting and work related storage). in a tower with 3 5in3's
(it used to have 15 drives, I cannibalized some drives for other servers during the floods and to save power on this server)

Three noco 4224's (all have matching hardware for easy transplanting in case of failure [X9SCM's])
*One is my media server it is ESXi AIO with a 4 x2TB ZFS and 20 x3TB unRAID (media storage server for 24x7 low power availbility) WHS2011 for backup of my workstations on the ZFS
*One is unRAID that is a backup of the other unRAID. 22x 2TB (not really needed. it is just to save me re-rpping 100's of blurays it is only on once a week or so for backups.)
*One is OI w/ Nappit for backup purposes. it backs up all of the servers via rsync.(except the unRAID). [this one could be any OS. I went with OI to learn it and for pure speed for faster backups.]
(future plans for the 3 are to make 2 of the norco's into das boxes and virtualize it all from the Head unit.)

2 HP N40L's
both are running WHS2011 (with Stablebit Drivepool).
These could be any OS honestly.
I keep a second or 3rd copy of my "I cant loose this data" on here (and my win2k8 box and a backup on the OI backup server)
One N40L is at my house and one N40L is at my parents. These two servers are mirrored via robocopy and beyond compare scripts over a secure VPN.
this data does not change that much. but it is my disaster recovery/offsite plan.
(could use just one N40L and have it sync with a folder on my local wk8 server. I could also use 2 of the chenbro servers i have. these were impulse buys i when they were $120 each. toys that I didnt need to buy).

obviously i am not saying build this,
I was just pointing out, there are a lot ways to build your network.
Is mine ideal? probably not. but based on the hardware i own and cost. it works for me. I also learned a hard lesson with SFF servers then outgrowing them. I am always open for suggestions on improvement.

you should go with what you are comfortable with, what you can support and what works in your budget.

 

[tran1981]

I have been going back and forth but decided to go with DS1812+ which I got with 20% off newegg promo. Closing the gap between own built and Synology.