MVA black crush

[Lifeline99]

I recently purchased the 24" Westinghouse L2410NM for PC and XBOX 360 use, and while it looks fine for the PC over DVI, the 360 over VGA gets black crushed to death. I've since read that this problem is typical of MVA panels (esp on this Westinghouse). What panel technologies do not exhibit this problem? TN? IPS?

Thanks!

 

[Benny]

If it looks fine with DVI it doesn't seem to be a panel specific problem, but a matter of factory monitor calibration or settings of the input.
The typical *VA black-crush refers to the blacks looking darker in the center region of the monitor due to the viewing angle, darks getting brighter when seen at an angle. (this effect is not present in TN and IPS screens)

 

[Lifeline99]

the effect Im describing seems more like a gamma problem....every variation of dark dray is crushed to solid black. All shadow details are lost...tends to make everything look crappy. You can crank the brightness way up, but then you end up washing everything out. Perhaps if this display had a gamma control this could be dealt with...alas, the 360 does not have a gamma control and most games dont either. I have a 3 yr old EDTV 42" plasma in the living room and it does not exhibit this problem... Perhaps I just need to find a display with its own gamma control...

 

[SH1]

You can also look if there is a level setting for the input. For example, a mistake people can make with the Samsung sets involves the low and normal setting for the HDMI input. If the TV is set to low and the source is normal, most of the gray scale is lost. You can see if the Westinghouse has such a control for the VGA input.

(I don't suppose the XBox has a gamma control or output level control itself?)

 

[TM2 Rampage]

Fiddle with those 360 display settings that say Normal, Intermediate, and Expanded

 

[10e]

You are right, this is more of a gamma issue, or an issue with certain connections being limited in what colors can be resolved...

The Westy has this issue on VGA for sure. I don't remember over component if this is a problem, but it is definitely an issue over VGA.

For example, my BenQ FP241VW shows that it is a limited range monitor with my PS3 or 360 over VGA, HDMI, or component, but over DVI it does not show black crush at all and I can set either console to "expanded blacks" or "full range HDMI". I cannot do this over the other HD connections as it will not resolve anything lower than 16,16,16, R,G,B. With DVI darks are not compressed or cut off.

Strangely enough my L2410NM had little problem with black crush/compressed darks over HDMI with PC or PS3. In fact it looked much better than the FP241VW using HDMI. Unfortunately at that time I didn't have my 360 with HDMI so I cannot comment, and my L2410NM is in Best Buys' hands for repair right now so I can't tell you for sure, but I believe that over HDMI I should be able to set at least "intermediate" blacks over HDMI with 360.

My G2400W (TN) and my NEC LCD2690WuXi-BK(H-IPS) do not show black crush over DVI, VGA, or HDMI. The only issue the G2400W has is it does not properly scale 1920x1080 over VGA (it stretches it to 1920x1200) but all other resolutions work perfectly scaled or 1:1 pixel mapped.

My Dell 2005FPW (S-IPS) over VGA has slight black compression with 360 so i had to set it at intermediate.

So you are correct. Some monitors have incorrect gamma calibration, and I had this issue with the Westy over VGA as well. With PC and a calibration profile, the gamma was basically perfect over PC > HDMI. If you'd like, PM me an e-mail address and I can send you the calibration profile I created for the Westy and you can see the difference on PC.

The 360 only has a black level setting (standard, intermediate, expanded) and the PS3 has "full range HDMI" settings. When the 360 is set to expanded blacks, it will go down to 0 RGB blacks, intermediate is 8 RGB and standard is 16 RGB.

Regards,

10e

 

[albovin]

the effect Im describing seems more like a gamma problem....every variation of dark dray is crushed to solid black. All shadow details are lost...tends to make everything look crappy. You can crank the brightness way up, but then you end up washing everything out. Perhaps if this display had a gamma control this could be dealt with...alas, the 360 does not have a gamma control and most games dont either. I have a 3 yr old EDTV 42" plasma in the living room and it does not exhibit this problem... Perhaps I just need to find a display with its own gamma control...

Perhaps I just need to find a display with its own gamma control

Absolutely. Although gamma control spoils something else while pulling details out from darkness, it may help with games where image quality is not as important as for general use.
Loss of dark shadow details is a problem of *VA technology that cannot be fixed, calibrated, etc. even with gamma control - for general image quality.
Different connections/modes/factory settings may worsen this problem or may leave it at it's "normal" level.

 

[Lifeline99]

Getting some different info here...anyone want to be the tie breaker?

"The typical *VA black-crush refers to the blacks looking darker in the center region of the monitor due to the viewing angle, darks getting brighter when seen at an angle."

OR...

"Loss of dark shadow details is a problem of *VA technology that cannot be fixed, calibrated, etc. even with gamma control"

who wins?

 

[SH1]

Getting some different info here...anyone want to be the tie breaker?

"The typical *VA black-crush refers to the blacks looking darker in the center region of the monitor due to the viewing angle, darks getting brighter when seen at an angle."

OR...

"Loss of dark shadow details is a problem of *VA technology that cannot be fixed, calibrated, etc. even with gamma control"

who wins?

The first one is consistent with my experience with Samsung TVs as computer monitors. (Not ideal, but no big deal though for my particular usage...)

 

[boneshack]

LCD TV's generally only go down to RGB 8 right? I think I got the xbox setup on the wrong setting all along with my TV as I never new what the standard, intermediate, and expanded meant.