Multibit DAC?

[Slug]

So I'm relatively new to outboard DACs and higher end headphones. I recently acquired a used Schiit Uber stack (magni2/modi2) with a Wyrd to use with my Hifiman HE-400i cans. Sounds pretty good to me. I am using a windows PC and a Mac mini for playback. I've also just re-ripped a few hundred CDs to ALAC.

My question (fairly subjective I know): am I likely to notice a DAC upgrade to a Modi 2 multibit or a Bifrost multibit? I guess I could also upgrade the Magni2, but that's not the current plan.

Thanks.

 

[DoubleTap]

I don't know for sure, but I thought the Multibit was about extra capabilities more than sound quality (but a small improvement in sq)

I have a Modi 2 Uber and I like it, but I'm thinking about returning it - it feels like overkill for me. I have 2 days to decide.

 

[RandemTox]

I don't know for sure, but I thought the Multibit was about extra capabilities more than sound quality (but a small improvement in sq)

No, it's purely about accurate reproduction.

No additional capabilities at all (at least not that are in anyway attributable to the architecture of the DAC).

So I'm relatively new to outboard DACs and higher end headphones. I recently acquired a used Schiit Uber stack (magni2/modi2) with a Wyrd to use with my Hifiman HE-400i cans. Sounds pretty good to me. I am using a windows PC and a Mac mini for playback. I've also just re-ripped a few hundred CDs to ALAC.

My question (fairly subjective I know): am I likely to notice a DAC upgrade to a Modi 2 multibit or a Bifrost multibit? I guess I could also upgrade the Magni2, but that's not the current plan.

Thanks.

Leave the Magni 2 where it is. The Modi Multi-bit is a useful, and relatively easily audible improvement over the D/S versions of the Modi. You'll almost certainly hear, and appreciate, the upgrade.

At the same time, it's almost indistinguishable from the Bifrost multi-bit (and better, in my opinion than the D/S version of the Bifrost).

Magni 2 (or Vali 2) w/ Modi MB takes a LOT of beating.

 

[Slug]

Thanks for the responses. Looking for a reason to upgrade already!

 

[pippenainteasy]

Almost all( (95%+) of sound improvements come from upgrading your transducer vs the last 5% from electronics.

The only real exception to this IMO is if you are driving cans that need an incredible amount of power (think electrostatic headphones with big 80-100mm transducers) in which case the amp becomes a bigger part of the puzzle.

 

[B00nie]

Almost all( (95%+) of sound improvements come from upgrading your transducer vs the last 5% from electronics.

The only real exception to this IMO is if you are driving cans that need an incredible amount of power (think electrostatic headphones with big 80-100mm transducers) in which case the amp becomes a bigger part of the puzzle.

Same logic applies to speakers vs rest of audio gear.

 

[Slug]

Score another one for alcohol and poor judgment. Ordered a Bifrost multibit.

 

[B00nie]

Score another one for alcohol and poor judgment. Ordered a Bifrost multibit.

Well I hope you're happy with it. Chances are you won't notice much improvement - if not the opposite even!

 

[Slug]

I hope I can tell a difference. If not there's a 2 week return window I suppose.

 

[RandemTox]

Almost all( (95%+) of sound improvements come from upgrading your transducer vs the last 5% from electronics.

The only real exception to this IMO is if you are driving cans that need an incredible amount of power (think electrostatic headphones with big 80-100mm transducers) in which case the amp becomes a bigger part of the puzzle.

You need a very specific amplifier for electrostatic headphones. You CANNOT run them off a regular headphone amplifier, no matter how powerful, and if you want to use a speaker-amplifier you still need a "Energizer" in the mix. It's not about "power" (I*V) but about having a) the proper connections and b) the ability to supply the ~560v bias voltage.

While it's true that you'll get the biggest bang for your buck in the realm of your actual headphones or speakers, there are limits there. And, at some point, they'll start revealing the limitations in your amplification or sources. With something like the HD650 that happens surprisingly early. And with TOTL headphones (Abyss, LCD-4, Utopia, HD800S) you'll rapidly expose the limitations of your source and amplification. The Abyss and LCD-4 do not work at all well with entry-level gear like the typical O2 recommendations, let alone approach what they're capable of.

 

[Astral Abyss]

Congratuations on making the R2R plunge. There's no going back now.

Make sure you let the Bifrost MB warm up before you use it. R2R DACs usually sound harsh when they're first powered on until everything gets to operating temperature. I never turn my Yggdrasil off. It's even recommended by Schiit to leave it on all the time for best results. My DAC-19 sounds best after it's been on for about 2 hours.

 

[Slug]

Thanks for the tip. I hope to take delivery by this Friday.

 

[Cat1yst]

If youre curious about the details. The non multi-bit operates on delta-sigma. In a few words it relies on fast switching to generate the auditory signal. Mutli bit relies on r2r (resistor dividers) and a multi-bit signal to create the wave.

Quantitatively, the multibit editon of the magni (or is it the modi) measures worse.

 

[pippenainteasy]

You need a very specific amplifier for electrostatic headphones. You CANNOT run them off a regular headphone amplifier, no matter how powerful, and if you want to use a speaker-amplifier you still need a "Energizer" in the mix. It's not about "power" (I*V) but about having a) the proper connections and b) the ability to supply the ~560v bias voltage.

I dont believe thats correct. Just because you have the correct bias voltage does not mean you are getting the full potential out of a high end estat like the SR007 or 009. You can drive an entry level Stax amp to clipping with the 007s without too much effort. Theres a huge difference in the size and quality of the power supplies and capacitance of say, an SRM323 and a Blue Hawaii SE (which was in fact was the original design goal by Headamp to address the inadequate amplification the 007 MK1 gets from stock Stax amps.)

While it's true that you'll get the biggest bang for your buck in the realm of your actual headphones or speakers, there are limits there. And, at some point, they'll start revealing the limitations in your amplification or sources. With something like the HD650 that happens surprisingly early. And with TOTL headphones (Abyss, LCD-4, Utopia, HD800S) you'll rapidly expose the limitations of your source and amplification. The Abyss and LCD-4 do not work at all well with entry-level gear like the typical O2 recommendations, let alone approach what they're capable of.

Kinda weird 180 you made there. First power doesnt matter with electrostats but now it matters with dynamics/orthos? Ive actually driven Utopia and HE1000s out of my cell phone before. It works, sounds reasonably good and doesnt sound like "does not work at all well" and you wouldn't suddenly confuse them for entry-level Grado or Beats headphones. The only issue I found was a lack of impact and control in the bass and certainly subdued transients, and obviously the volume limitations, but its perfectly reasonable sound for on-the-go when a full size amp isnt available. You aren't suddenly experiencing the equivalent of ASCII text instead of a HD image on a TV, it's more like 480p.

 

[B00nie]

I dont believe thats correct. Just because you have the correct bias voltage does not mean you are getting the full potential out of a high end estat like the SR007 or 009. You can drive an entry level Stax amp to clipping with the 007s without too much effort. Theres a huge difference in the size and quality of the power supplies and capacitance of say, an SRM323 and a Blue Hawaii SE (which was in fact was the original design goal by Headamp to address the inadequate amplification the 007 MK1 gets from stock Stax amps.)

That was correct, electrostat headphones need a special headphone amp. They operate on totally different technology. Even if you forget bias voltage you still need audio transformers and an amp that can drive a purely capacitive load. Regular headphones are resistive.

 

[pippenainteasy]

That was correct, electrostat headphones need a special headphone amp. They operate on totally different technology. Even if you forget bias voltage you still need audio transformers and an amp that can drive a purely capacitive load. Regular headphones are resistive.

No I get that regular headphone amplifiers cant be used to drive electrostats; I've never had the morbid curiosity to drive electrostats with a 120v headphone amplifier. He implied the only thing that matters is the right bias voltage and that theres no qualitative difference between electrostatic amps with regards to power delivery outside of voltage. He quoted my original post and disagreed about my statement of qualitative differences in electrostatic amps; ergo hes implying there Is no difference from additional capacitance, power supplies, input stages, and only bias voltage matters.

I assume you agree with that position since Im just repeating the same points I previously made--but I found the Blue Hawaii SE noticeably better than the 323s so we're just going to have to disagree based on our personal experiences and leave it at that.

 

[B00nie]

No I get that regular headphone amplifiers cant be used to drive electrostats; I've never had the morbid curiosity to drive electrostats with a 120v headphone amplifier. He implied the only thing that matters is the right bias voltage and that theres no qualitative difference between electrostatic amps with regards to power delivery outside of voltage. He quoted my original post and disagreed about my statement of qualitative differences in electrostatic amps; ergo hes implying there Is no difference from additional capacitance, power supplies, input stages, and only bias voltage matters.

I assume you agree with that position since Im just repeating the same points I previously made--but I found the Blue Hawaii SE noticeably better than the 323s so we're just going to have to disagree based on our personal experiences and leave it at that.

In my experience differences with amps are very small in general as long as you're talking about two working hi-fi amps being used for the use they're intended for. Chances are you're not going to even find a bad amp that's exotic enough to drive electrostat headgear, DIY excluded naturally.

What I want to say is that if someone bothers to build a headphone amp for headphones that cost 10-20 times the cost of a regular headphone (let alone expect to sell it), it's most likely going to be pretty good quality.

 

[Astral Abyss]

What does any of this have to do with a multibit DAC?

 

[pippenainteasy]

What does any of this have to do with a multibit DAC?

Coz RandomTox really wanted me to know that you cant stick a high voltage device into a low voltage device and I took the bait, lol. For my part, I apologize.

 

[RandemTox]

I dont believe thats correct. Just because you have the correct bias voltage does not mean you are getting the full potential out of a high end estat like the SR007 or 009. You can drive an entry level Stax amp to clipping with the 007s without too much effort. Theres a huge difference in the size and quality of the power supplies and capacitance of say, an SRM323 and a Blue Hawaii SE (which was in fact was the original design goal by Headamp to address the inadequate amplification the 007 MK1 gets from stock Stax amps.)


Kinda weird 180 you made there. First power doesnt matter with electrostats but now it matters with dynamics/orthos? Ive actually driven Utopia and HE1000s out of my cell phone before. It works, sounds reasonably good and doesnt sound like "does not work at all well" and you wouldn't suddenly confuse them for entry-level Grado or Beats headphones. The only issue I found was a lack of impact and control in the bass and certainly subdued transients, and obviously the volume limitations, but its perfectly reasonable sound for on-the-go when a full size amp isnt available. You aren't suddenly experiencing the equivalent of ASCII text instead of a HD image on a TV, it's more like 480p.

The short version is, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Raw RMS power doesn't matter for electrostatic headphones. If you don't have the right pin-out and the correct bias voltage, then everything else is moot. They just won't work.

And running either Focal's Utopia, or the HE-1000 directly off a cell-phone is comical. It doesn't sound good, by any stretch of the measure, and it only "works" to the extent that they'll both make noise driven that way. They won't sound "good", much less anywhere near their potential. Also, you might want to take apart those HE-1000. I did ... I was shocked at the schlockiness of the build. $3,000? Fuck me ... they're not worth a third of that - even HiFi Man's own HEX are a better deal.

For reference, here's my current stable of headphones:

And I've elected not to go with one of Justin's BHSE units and either of the top-two-STAX units on the basis that they're too much twatting around to have in multiple homes and multiple rigs. They sound excellent, driven properly, but I'd rather have more variety than spend $10K per station and still have to deal with the issues that e-Stats still exhibit, even with the best of amplification.

 

[B00nie]

The short version is, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Raw RMS power doesn't matter for electrostatic headphones. If you don't have the right pin-out and the correct bias voltage, then everything else is moot. They just won't work.

And running either Focal's Utopia, or the HE-1000 directly off a cell-phone is comical. It doesn't sound good, by any stretch of the measure, and it only "works" to the extent that they'll both make noise driven that way. They won't sound "good", much less anywhere near their potential. Also, you might want to take apart those HE-1000. I did ... I was shocked at the schlockiness of the build. $3,000? Fuck me ... they're not worth a third of that - even HiFi Man's own HEX are a better deal.

For reference, here's my current stable of headphones:

View attachment 11417

And I've elected not to go with one of Justin's BHSE units and either of the top-two-STAX units on the basis that they're too much twatting around to have in multiple homes and multiple rigs. They sound excellent, driven properly, but I'd rather have more variety than spend $10K per station and still have to deal with the issues that e-Stats still exhibit, even with the best of amplification.

You should really invest to head tracking with that amount of money sunk to head gear. You'll never get a realistic sound stage without it.

 

[pippenainteasy]

The short version is, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Raw RMS power doesn't matter for electrostatic headphones. If you don't have the right pin-out and the correct bias voltage, then everything else is moot. They just won't work.

I dont dont know why you keep asserting something I never claimed, and then celebrating some kind of pyrric victory over this. Ive never claimed you can connect an electrostatic headphone with a stax connector to a 120v minijack or phono port or that you can drive them with the wrong bias voltage.

Ive already clarified this multiple times. I can understand the first time how you might have the wrong impression if my initial post was poorly worded, but despite new evidence to the contrary you are still doubling down and continuing to assert that its my view is something that's factually incorrect and either you are not reading my responses or simply intentionally trying to misrepresent my views.

And running either Focal's Utopia, or the HE-1000 directly off a cell-phone is comical. It doesn't sound good, by any stretch of the measure, and it only "works" to the extent that they'll both make noise driven that way. They won't sound "good", much less anywhere near their potential.

Nothing you are saying here I would disagree with, and my position isnt exactly mutually exclusive to yours. Its simply a matter of a difference in nuance in describing effectively the same position.

Look I understand right now we arent discussing anything of substance. We are just two personalities clashing. Im being wordy and nuanced about my experiences, whereas you are trying to establish dominance by tossing subtlety and citing your vast wealth as a qualification for why my opinion is wrong.

I totally get where you are coming from. We all watched Donald Trump this election cycle so the alpha male personality has been on display for the past year so its well understood now. I understand no matter what I say even if it more or less is the same that you are saying, you have to say "wrong!" and "loser!" and come out on top, because once you're invested, your personality dictates you have to "win." I get it, that personality contributed to your success and thats why you've got so many homes to brag about. So any further arguing is pointless since our goals are diametrically opposed. So ill just bow out--the stage is all yours Don.

 

[Slug]

Finally got the Bifrost delivered and set up. It sounds great, but I've not had time to really audition it yet. I look forward to doing that over the next several days.

 

[Momo]

kind of sick of the sound situation with my motherboard and asus xonar essence stx. Software issue with sound output on motherboard, so i got an asus xonar essnce stx.
...Mic noise with asus, and the RMA returned one too ... have to use onboard sound for mic input.

Anyhow, i noted in the FAQ on schiit's website that USB gen 3 is reserved for Yrddrasil. How old is the current BitFrost? is everything going to be updated to usb3 this coming year or what?

 

[SvenBent]

I always find it funny how many "audiophiles" think that because they bought something expensive they automatically are more knowledgeable.
Ussually when people have to "brag" this way I see at as people ran out of knowledge and a trying to compensate for it, because they can no longer put in reasonable arguments in the debate.
But hey that just me

 

[Momo]

sorry, what are you referencing...?

 

[Slug]

This is my first foray into quality headphones and separate amps and DACs. I'm having fun with it. Can I really tell the difference between the modi 2 Uber and the Bifrost? Probably not, at least so far. It's fun to try though. And I'm enjoying listening to music that I haven't heard in a while as I've finally re-ripped my whole library to lossless. I also just got a good deal on a used Asgard 2, so I'm going to play with that too. I live in a condo building so I have to keep my volume down unless I use headphones. It's a win win for me. I spent a few bucks on myself, but that's ok because I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggone it, people like me.

 

[B00nie]

I always find it funny how many "audiophiles" think that because they bought something expensive they automatically are more knowledgeable.
Ussually when people have to "brag" this way I see at as people ran out of knowledge and a trying to compensate for it, because they can no longer put in reasonable arguments in the debate.
But hey that just me

That's a complicated matter. On the other hand yes, sometimes 'audiophiles' pull the gear card when they clearly run out of arguments. On the other hand an average Joe who has never owned truly great audio gear most likely has no clue on what he's talking about. Certain things you just need to experience to understand it.

Audio is highly subjective and personal. You can have two persons listening to an identical system - one wouldn't bother paying 10 bucks for it and the other would gladly pay the $100 000 full retail price.

 

[SvenBent]

That's a complicated matter. On the other hand yes, sometimes 'audiophiles' pull the gear card when they clearly run out of arguments. On the other hand an average Joe who has never owned truly great audio gear most likely has no clue on what he's talking about. Certain things you just need to experience to understand it.

Audio is highly subjective and personal. You can have two persons listening to an identical system - one wouldn't bother paying 10 bucks for it and the other would gladly pay the $100 000 full retail price.

Subjective things doesn't really belong in an disagreement debate as they are subjective.
and if average Joe doesn't know about audio mechanics. Its not because he doesn't have the equipment. Its because he don't know. There is no cause relations in your example. just an coincidences relations.
Certain things you need to experience to understand it, I can agree to that but its really far in between when it comes to objective stuff.

You can be very knowledge about how things works and what is the better objective method. Without owning expensive gear. and vice versa. Those two things a totally unrelated.
What you want to pay is not just a matter of subjectivity but as well as priories and personal wealth. none of which changes your knowledge about this areas in any direct way

And in most cases. once people go to the "I have expensive stuff" argument, 9/10 its the audiophile people that is full of mythical believes and placebo.

 

[SvenBent]

sorry, what are you referencing...?

I was referring to this
"For reference, here's my current stable of headphones:"

 

[B00nie]

Subjective things doesn't really belong in an disagreement debate as they are subjective.
and if average Joe doesn't know about audio mechanics. Its not because he doesn't have the equipment. Its because he don't know. There is no cause relations in your example. just an coincidences relations.
Certain things you need to experience to understand it, I can agree to that but its really far in between when it comes to objective stuff.

You can be very knowledge about how things works and what is the better objective method. Without owning expensive gear. and vice versa. Those two things a totally unrelated.
What you want to pay is not just a matter of subjectivity but as well as priories and personal wealth. none of which changes your knowledge about this areas in any direct way

And in most cases. once people go to the "I have expensive stuff" argument, 9/10 its the audiophile people that is full of mythical believes and placebo.

The problem is that the average Joe may THINK he knows something but doesn't. Also, most people who are into the field of business tend to have personal experience like owning or having owned or at least heard exotic gear on expos. I've met laymen who make wild claims based on nothing but their own ignorance.

Even that guarantees nothing though because some people just can't tell the difference between coffee grounds and Beluga caviar. One may be completely hyped about computer mini satellites + 'sub' combo thinking that's the best thing ever while someone else may think this sort of solutions are 99,9% of time complete mediocre crap that compromise sound in order to achieve the form factor and cheap out on components.

Most people simply haven't studied the field enough to understand that there are differences to crossover implementations and radiation angles of loudspeakers. You can have two identical looking speakers with the other one having superior power response and controlled field radiation and the other one may have a flat direct response but become completely non-linear at 30 or 60 degree angles, making the speaker sound horrible when placed on desktop and below the ear.

 

[SvenBent]

The problem is that the average Joe may THINK he knows something but doesn't. Also, most people who are into the field of business tend to have personal experience like owning or having owned or at least heard exotic gear on expos. I've met laymen who make wild claims based on nothing but their own ignorance.

Even that guarantees nothing though because some people just can't tell the difference between coffee grounds and Beluga caviar. One may be completely hyped about computer mini satellites + 'sub' combo thinking that's the best thing ever while someone else may think this sort of solutions are 99,9% of time complete mediocre crap that compromise sound in order to achieve the form factor and cheap out on components.

Most people simply haven't studied the field enough to understand that there are differences to crossover implementations and radiation angles of loudspeakers. You can have two identical looking speakers with the other one having superior power response and controlled field radiation and the other one may have a flat direct response but become completely non-linear at 30 or 60 degree angles, making the speaker sound horrible when placed on desktop and below the ear.

I agree with you. But no part of the lack of this ability is made up by buying expensive equipment. Which was my point that you argued "against"
My point was still that people thinking that having expensive equipment is a valid argument in a technical debate is wrong.
And in my experience more often than not is these kind of people that actually don't really know as much as they like to and that why they fall back to the "I got more expensive equipment so i must be right" way of arguing.

 

[B00nie]

I agree with you. But no part of the lack of this ability is made up by buying expensive equipment. Which was my point that you argued "against"
My point was still that people thinking that having expensive equipment is a valid argument in a technical debate is wrong.
And in my experience more often than not is these kind of people that actually don't really know as much as they like to and that why they fall back to the "I got more expensive equipment so i must be right" way of arguing.

Well you got it wrong if you thought I argued against that point. I was only saying that sometimes people who have invested a lot of money in gear also have more experience and a reason for that investment. I never thought owning something gave you any credibility though. It only takes money.

 

[SvenBent]

Well you got it wrong if you thought I argued against that point. I was only saying that sometimes people who have invested a lot of money in gear also have more experience and a reason for that investment. I never thought owning something gave you any credibility though. It only takes money.

My apologies then. I very much could have misread it reading it right after the very aggressive post of RAndemTox.

 

[Pillars]

My upgrade path:
Essence STX, Pro 900 +
DT770+
Asgard+
HE400i+++++
Bifrost 4490++
Asgard2++
Ifi Micro iDSD+++
Modi Multibit ++++++
Jotunheim++++++ (When balanced)
HD6XX Coming...

The multibit was huge for my planars, as was the balanced jot. Driving my cans from a cellphone is not enjoyable. DAC/Amp upgrades take time to appreciate, but Mimby/Jot is ..wow... Also, many report Mimby/Bimby same SQ with a bit more low-end slam on Mimby. YMMV, however I went Mimby and sold everything else. Very happy with my setup now and doubtful I'll upgrade for a long time to come.

 

[Zarathustra[H]]

My upgrade path:
Essence STX, Pro 900 +
DT770+
Asgard+
HE400i+++++
Bifrost 4490++
Asgard2++
Ifi Micro iDSD+++
Modi Multibit ++++++
Jotunheim++++++ (When balanced)
HD6XX Coming...

The multibit was huge for my planars, as was the balanced jot. Driving my cans from a cellphone is not enjoyable. DAC/Amp upgrades take time to appreciate, but Mimby/Jot is ..wow... Also, many report Mimby/Bimby same SQ with a bit more low-end slam on Mimby. YMMV, however I went Mimby and sold everything else. Very happy with my setup now and doubtful I'll upgrade for a long time to come.

I have a Modi Multibit as well, and i have to say it is a great DAC at almost any price, but at $249 it is an amazing deal. Almost don't understand why anyone buys anything else, unless they need balanced outs.

Many seem to prefer it even over the Bifrost Multibit upgrade, because it is more balanced across the range. (Bifrost multibit has better highs, but more muddled bass, whereas Modi Multibit seems to be even top to bottom)

I currently have my Modi Multibit hooked up with single ended inputs to my Jotunheim. Currently using it single ended with my DT770 Pro's, but I also have the HD6xx massdrops coming, and have already modded a balanced cable for them. At some point I'm going to grab the dremel and do a balanced conversion for the DT770 Pro's as well.

Just wish there were and affordable balanced multibit DAC. I understand the Jotunheim is so good - however - that it doesn't feel out of place, even if used with the $1,249 Gungnir multibit, but I don't have that kind of cash to drop on an a DAC.

 

[Pillars]

I agree, I'm sure it is on schiits mind however they have a lot on their plate with Vidar and Freya.