More Swiftech Cheapness

[Steeeeve]

Wow a lot of Swiftech bashing going on here.

They fixed the shavings problem...it performs just as well as the Storm with less flow resistence and at a cheaper cost. The MCW30 (chipset one) doesn't have pins because it doesn't need it. You would be restricting flow with little to no gain performance wise. Some then claim it should cost 20 bucks instead of 30. Well, considering swiftech has had a net loss the last time I looked, it probably is not a time for them to be lowering prices. I suppose you could get the chipset waterblock with more surface area if you like but it is overall worthless. Most chipset blocks cost around 40 bucks or more because they have the worthless surface area...go for if you want to spend the extra 10-15 I guess. As for the MCW60, NONE OF YOU HAVE TESTED IT. You claim lack of quality yet none of you have even tested this products. The apogee has already been proven to provide the same results as the Storm (in recent reviews) so what makes you think this is any differenet? These claims you guys make are pretty basis or jump to conclusions. One guy talks about them incorporting and thus have bad quality. What!?!? They have a next loss of 100,000 or so. They probably don't even have that many stock holders to start out with so it isn't a huge deal for them to do this. Stop jumping to conclusions and actually wait for some results to come in before you judge.

 

[Bio-Hazard]

This has really turned into a extremely comical thread again...............

Enjoy .........

 

[Top Nurse]

This has really turned into a extremely comical thread again.

Where you been hiding or have you finally decided to grace us with your omniscient presence?

 

[Bio-Hazard]

I only come by when I'm extreme bored with nothing else to do and need a good laugh or 2...............

Righ now I'm running some stress test on this block and purging the water cooling system on another, so I thought I surf the net a bit.

 

[DFI Daishi]

One word.... performance and no... not looks.

yeah......right.....performance.......that's what this block is ALL about

cheaply built shit with an amazing profit margin has NOTHING to do with it.

 

[DFI Daishi]

Back on topic . To trash a topic because of user feed back is questionable at best .

The product in Question seems to be fairly priced and we don't no if the poster may have motives were not aware of.

So when we talk about quality issues keep in mind that all companies have these problems. Doesn,t everyone remove there tops to check for debries?

i know that i didn't. i shouldn't have to. no user should have to. blocks should be produced and sold to a level of quality that you can confidently take that part out of the box, read through the instructions, install it as per instructions, and it should work. this should be the standard to which users hold manufacturers, even if manufactureres don't hold themselves to it.

swiftech shipping blocks with metal cuttings left in the pin area is unacceptable. i don't care if it was only 10 or so cases that i have seen: any left in the field is too many. failure to issue a recall or at the very least issue a consumer warning is bordering on criminal, so far as i'm concerned.

Or was it because the user didn't have a clue.

So slaming a whole companies product because of user input is subjective at best.

so what's better? prior to going out and buying a product, how does one go about assessing build quality of competing products? performance? ease of use? are we supposed to go by company publications? are documents producted by the companies themselves less biased and flawed than user input?

are we all supposed to buy a selection of products and decide what is better on our own? that would be nice, but it's a pretty expensive proposition, and about the only source of feedback that you have if you disregard user feedback and independant reviews.

I have read 1000's of reviews on Gpu' cpu's and other hardware but if I thought for 1 second my results would be the same as the reviewers there's a lot of products I wouldn't buy based on those reviews. Were all human and there are many things that motavate differant people . The internet is a source for information but if your looking for the trueth best look somewere else

now i'm really baffeled. why the fuck do you read reviews if you don't use them? yes, by all means be skeptical of what you read. question the motives of the review. examine the methods used by the reviewer.

at the end of the day, you should be able to find at least a few reviews that are satisfactory, and you base your purchases on those.

you don't disregard reviews and user feedback, you use them wisely. doing otherwise means that you are picking your hardware blindly.

 

[DFI Daishi]

People dis German watercooling gear because they can't afford it, can't get it for one reason or another, or have an ethnocentric view that all things foreign are shit. However, if you take a Swiftech sticker and put it on a foreign watercooling item then everyone thinks it's great.

numbers.....numbers......numbers.........you want some of us to take claims that it performs well seriously, you need some good ones.

german watercooling gear handycaps itself with small tubes and weak pumps, and then you claim that it does just as well. pardon me for not believe that german manufacturing and engineering allows for feats of magic.

you made some real effort to get the gear to systemcooling. thanks. we'll see what form the review takes and how well the hardware does. i just hope that they get that damn block onto the heat die with a flow metre so we have some real measurements on it.

 

[DFI Daishi]

Wow a lot of Swiftech bashing going on here.

They fixed the shavings problem...it performs just as well as the Storm with less flow resistence and at a cheaper cost.

*snip*

The apogee has already been proven to provide the same results as the Storm (in recent reviews) so what makes you think this is any differenet? These claims you guys make are pretty basis or jump to conclusions.

oh? they fixed it? when? how? what changes did the impliment? if you're referring to them using the same process which produces metal cuttings and then adding additional QC inspection, then i'm not impressed. hell, the block pictured at OCIA showed numerous areas around the bases of the pins when the metal has pulled and left a lovely little tounge of metal to corrode away with time.

what reviews show that it works as well as the storm?

http://www.google.ca/search?q=swift...ient=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

you mean the ones that use the built in temp diode of live CPUs? the ones that can't tell the difference between a maze2 and an apogee, let alone the difference between an apogee and a storm? wow.....what great reviews.......and the review at systemcooling? what about that one?

at this point i am biased as hell. my key bias isn't against swiftech. the have destroyed a lot of my confidence in them by shipping apogee blocks with shavings and apex kits with dented rads. it takes time and the release of SOLID products to re-build that confidence.

if they want to reassure users like me that the new MCW60 is well built, then get some out to the review site that published such a damaging review of the apogee: systemcooling. when forum members who are not pro-swiftech get them, pull them apart, and find a nice and clean surface that is dimpled by bead blasting: that will also help to restore my confidence in them.

 

[DangerIsGo]

People dis German watercooling gear because they can't afford it, can't get it for one reason or another, or have an ethnocentric view that all things foreign are shit. However, if you take a Swiftech sticker and put it on a foreign watercooling item then everyone thinks it's great.

Not anymore. Not until swiftech starts making WC parts in the good ol US of A again and not designing them here. I just want to see temps of the MCW30. You guys can complain all you want, but until I see temps, thats all that matters. And to bring up a point that was said, the fact that there are no pins to hamper flow is a good thing...especialy for such a small block.

 

[Erasmus354]

numbers.....numbers......numbers.........you want some of us to take claims that it performs well seriously, you need some good ones.

german watercooling gear handycaps itself with small tubes and weak pumps, and then you claim that it does just as well. pardon me for not believe that german manufacturing and engineering allows for feats of magic.

you made some real effort to get the gear to systemcooling. thanks. we'll see what form the review takes and how well the hardware does. i just hope that they get that damn block onto the heat die with a flow metre so we have some real measurements on it.

Supposedly Sharka JUST NOW shipped the block to Systemcooling for review. He has been stringing on Lee for 3 weeks now saying he would ship it, but never actually doing so. The review probably would have been done by now if it wasn't for Sharka.

 

[$BangforThe$]

Because you claim to have had 10 apogee's apart and claim to have seen filings in them Why did you buy 10 of the low quality parts .

Was it the good looks the cooling ability or the low quality that kept you buying more and more of these parts. ????

People want cheap price good performance and high qaulity control.

What would you est. the wages of a QC inspector the parts involved ? Not much is it?

More than likely drug users. or can't speak english.

How do you bring a good product to market and maintain high QC with the workforce in the lower income that america has?

 

[Banko]

I too have complains about the Apogee block... Previous blocks Swiftech blocks were perfect but not this one. I ran a 48 hour leak test on my new setup and then ran the system for an entire week without leaks. Out of nowhere the block starts leaking.. I'm going to have to go with Swiftech's stupidity for using non-metal barbs because that is where it was leaking.


With my old Swiftech MCW6000 (Which sadly I sold) It would be impossible for it to leak since it was all metal...

 

[$BangforThe$]

i know that i didn't. i shouldn't have to. no user should have to. blocks should be produced and sold to a level of quality that you can confidently take that part out of the box, read through the instructions, install it as per instructions, and it should work. this should be the standard to which users hold manufacturers, even if manufactureres don't hold themselves to it.

swiftech shipping blocks with metal cuttings left in the pin area is unacceptable. i don't care if it was only 10 or so cases that i have seen: any left in the field is too many. failure to issue a recall or at the very least issue a consumer warning is bordering on criminal, so far as i'm concerned.

so what's better? prior to going out and buying a product, how does one go about assessing build quality of competing products? performance? ease of use? are we supposed to go by company publications? are documents producted by the companies themselves less biased and flawed than user input?

are we all supposed to buy a selection of products and decide what is better on our own? that would be nice, but it's a pretty expensive proposition, and about the only source of feedback that you have if you disregard user feedback and independant reviews.

now i'm really baffeled. why the fuck do you read reviews if you don't use them? yes, by all means be skeptical of what you read. question the motives of the review. examine the methods used by the reviewer.

at the end of the day, you should be able to find at least a few reviews that are satisfactory, and you base your purchases on those.

you don't disregard reviews and user feedback, you use them wisely. doing otherwise means that you are picking your hardware blindly.

For a newbe I agree but if you been around hardware long enough you really don't need to read the reviews .

I read them so that I can check the differance in the reviews themselves. When it comes the video card reviews thats a joke . To date I haven't seen one review until the other day where shimmering was mentioned.

Now I have a problem with this when the reviewer will go on to mention loudness.

I can water cool so loudness means nothing to me so thats a none event but i can't fix the shimmering.

 

[Top Nurse]

Supposedly Sharka JUST NOW shipped the block to Systemcooling for review. He has been stringing on Lee for 3 weeks now saying he would ship it, but never actually doing so. The review probably would have been done by now if it wasn't for Sharka.

I think the issue was one of marketing and what Sharka was getting out of the deal that made for the delay. It was shipped Friday and should be there in a few days. Quit your bitching! I have been waiting for almost 9 months.

 

[Top Nurse]

People want cheap price good performance and high qaulity control.

...or can't speak english.

How do you bring a good product to market and maintain high QC with the workforce in the lower income that america has?

Nothing wrong with high quality and cheap prices is there? I go to Walmart because I can get cheap prices and high quality goods. If I want something they don't carry I go elsewhere and pay the piper.

What makes you think that people who can't speak English are somehow dumb?

To answer your last question the issue is ethics.

 

[DangerIsGo]

Which is why I went for the Stasis block! American made...american product. Hand made too none-the-less. the MCW55 was a good GPU block (made in america) but then now the apogee and MCW60 are designed here, made elsewhere. I wish I could have gotten the apex extreme, but i couldnt. I wish swiftech would still recognize that there are people out there that still perfer their american products (storm mostly) and continue to make them.

 

[$BangforThe$]

Top nurse you left out the drug user part . and I was referring to parts made in the usa were the work force is in the lower income. and the ethics part is why I even replied to this thread. Inever used the word dumb I was referring to lazy.

If you haven't noticed the 2 wolf packs out there . The bad wolves have a much larger pack than the good wolf pack. Soon there well be only 1 pack left care to guess which one.

 

[$BangforThe$]

This has really turned into a extremely comical thread again...............

Enjoy .........

Bio you want comedy go to AT video forum and read the AEG Thread now there is comedy.

 

[Bio-Hazard]

Preliminary results after leak testing the MCW60 with APOGEE. Temps down on GPU 2c over old blocks and CPU temp down 1c. All on fresh thermal paste, should get better with a little time.

Old blocks were Swiftech Storm with PolarFlo TT GPU block.

 

[Budwise]

1C can be made or lost just by a different mount. I dont know anything about that other GPU block, but i know i have read that an Apogee block will cause the GPU temps to go down a little because it is less restrictive than the Storm. Try the Storm w/ the MCW60 for a more direct GPU block comparison. Or use the Apogee and try both GPU blocks. I would bet you would see little to no difference except with the Apogee the GPU will be 1C lower or so prolly.

 

[DangerIsGo]

Bio, how are the temps of the MCW60?

 

[Bio-Hazard]

1C can be made or lost just by a different mount. I dont know anything about that other GPU block, but i know i have read that an Apogee block will cause the GPU temps to go down a little because it is less restrictive than the Storm. Try the Storm w/ the MCW60 for a more direct GPU block comparison. Or use the Apogee and try both GPU blocks. I would bet you would see little to no difference except with the Apogee the GPU will be 1C lower or so prolly.

Been there, done all that, this MCW60 is for a review so I've tried it in several different configuations, and each block was removed and reinstalled 3 times and the temps averaged.

Storm with PolarFlo universal and TT and MCW60
PolarFlo TT CPU with PolarFlo universal and TT and MCW60
APOGEE with PolarFlo universal and TT and MCW60
I was going to run it with a DD TDX CPU block, but I sold it with a bunch of other stuff last week.
And the APOGEE/MCW60 has given the best overall results on my test rig. They my be a cheaper solution, but if it cools well, who cares. ..............

 

[Bio-Hazard]

Bio, so you have the MCW30 in your posession? You have any temps for us?

Sorry, no chip set blocks, I don't use them nor do I see a need for them........ That's just my opinion though............... I haven't seen any sort of review on it anywhere as of yet.

 

[DangerIsGo]

Yeah I kinda messed up the whole name thing. They need different names for their blocks. like Apogee and Storm...not like MCW30 and MCW60 too close. What kind of temps have you gotten with the MCW60 compared to the MCW55 and the maze4GPU?

 

[Steeeeve]

Been there, done all that, this MCW60 is for a review so I've tried it in several different configuations, and each block was removed and reinstalled 3 times and the temps averaged.

Storm with PolarFlo universal and TT and MCW60
PolarFlo TT CPU with PolarFlo universal and TT and MCW60
APOGEE with PolarFlo universal and TT and MCW60
I was going to run it with a DD TDX CPU block, but I sold it with a bunch of other stuff last week.
And the APOGEE/MCW60 has given the best overall results on my test rig. They my be a cheaper solution, but if it cools well, who cares. ..............

Wait, are you telling me that YOU are making an opinion based on facts and results that you yourself have come up with?!?!!? How dare you! Why don't you conform and just rag on Swiftech for having ONE quality problem which they have since fixed.

Glad to know some people still have their head on right. The results don't surprise me. Increased flow is a good thing.

 

[Steeeeve]

oh? they fixed it? when? how? what changes did the impliment? if you're referring to them using the same process which produces metal cuttings and then adding additional QC inspection, then i'm not impressed. hell, the block pictured at OCIA showed numerous areas around the bases of the pins when the metal has pulled and left a lovely little tounge of metal to corrode away with time.

what reviews show that it works as well as the storm?

http://www.google.ca/search?q=swift...ient=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

you mean the ones that use the built in temp diode of live CPUs? the ones that can't tell the difference between a maze2 and an apogee, let alone the difference between an apogee and a storm? wow.....what great reviews.......and the review at systemcooling? what about that one?

at this point i am biased as hell. my key bias isn't against swiftech. the have destroyed a lot of my confidence in them by shipping apogee blocks with shavings and apex kits with dented rads. it takes time and the release of SOLID products to re-build that confidence.

if they want to reassure users like me that the new MCW60 is well built, then get some out to the review site that published such a damaging review of the apogee: systemcooling. when forum members who are not pro-swiftech get them, pull them apart, and find a nice and clean surface that is dimpled by bead blasting: that will also help to restore my confidence in them.

You claiming that you are biased doesn't make me think you are credible. Systemcooling was the first review. Since then more reviews have been done that showed an equal footing with the storm and no shavings. Your search engine has that review in it. All this talk about the IHS and what not is funny...yeah, it skews results but guess what! Thats the real world. You can use simulaters all you want but those aren't the resutls you will get so why even worry about that? You want good results? Take a storm and apogee, put them on the same processor and test..do it 3-4 times with each block. For better results, do it on different rigs and then take an average. Granted this will take a long time but it will work out better than a simulater (which can be flawed too).

 

[consumer9000]

When it comes to good reasons to buy American made parts, aside from the generally superior quality is this hair raising statement: "What would you do you if your job was outsourced?"

The strength of our economy depends on sustaining domestic labor, which has been dwindling away. This is why I'm committed to designing and making every STASIS part in the USA. Without jobs, people can't afford to buy stuff, especially things like WC parts. I take pride in buying as many domestically made components as I can.

 

[Erasmus354]

When it comes to good reasons to buy American made parts, aside from the generally superior quality is this hair raising statement: "What would you do you if your job was outsourced?"

The strength of our economy depends on sustaining domestic labor, which has been dwindling away. This is why I'm committed to designing and making every STASIS part in the USA. Without jobs, people can't afford to buy stuff, especially things like WC parts. I take pride in buying as many domestically made components as I can.

Curious you say that because your "pin fin" core is most likely forged at Intricast's "offshore subsidiary". Meaning your STASIS waterblock is NOT made entirely in the USA.

 

[DFI Daishi]

You claiming that you are biased doesn't make me think you are credible. Systemcooling was the first review. Since then more reviews have been done that showed an equal footing with the storm and no shavings. Your search engine has that review in it. All this talk about the IHS and what not is funny...yeah, it skews results but guess what! Thats the real world. You can use simulaters all you want but those aren't the resutls you will get so why even worry about that? You want good results? Take a storm and apogee, put them on the same processor and test..do it 3-4 times with each block. For better results, do it on different rigs and then take an average. Granted this will take a long time but it will work out better than a simulater (which can be flawed too).

i did not say a damn thing about the IHS skewing the results. i mentioned the poor calibration of the built in thermal diode. these are two seperate issues. litteracy is you ally.

i have read through intel thermal solution design guidelines, have you? intel knows that the user-accessable diode is poorly calibrated. they tell you to take a TTV, machine a groove into the IHS, and use a thermocouple probe to measure temperatures. don't think that a TTV is real world enough? you can do the same thing with a live proc, if you want. i wouldn't mind a review using that methodology. in spite of cathar's objections to the TTV and live CPUs, i think that the testing methodology is perfectly valid for comparing the relative performance of two waterblocks. if you are trying to generate absolute numbers, i don't think that it's a good method, however for product to product comparison it's just fine.

i don't take reviews using internal diode readings at all seriously. all of the reviews that show the apogee on equal footing with the storm use internal diode readings.

it would take one hell of a lot more than 3 or 4 mounts to get the margin for error down to something reasonable for live CPU testing. testing the max overclocks are also good, but once again it would take a lot of re-tests to get the margin for error to the point where a difference in overclocks can reliably be attributed to better cooling as opposed to you having sneezed on the motherboard prior to one test and not on another.

 

[consumer9000]

It is true that not all components can be sourced domestically, including the pin fin array forging I use on the NVx1 waterblock. However the majority of the components are domestically sourced, and all of the machining, assembly etc is done locally. Sadly very few things can claim to be 100% American made. Whether it be cars or cigarettes, most products contain components sourced from every corner of the planet.

 

[DangerIsGo]

Which is why i went for the stasis block Its better to say its USA made than the MCW60

 

[$BangforThe$]

I couldn't agree more USA has some of the worlds best talent. The problem isn't in the middle to higher income brakets . The problem is in the lower income brakets. Where drugs and work ethic is at a high point in a American history. I would be interested in what said company pays its assembliers.

 

[scwam]

I just ordered this block, I will report how well it cools my 7800gt. I decided to go with a vga block after putting my card in the freezer for an hour, then fridge to cool down and booted up the cold card. My overclock jumped about 25mhz on the core. Hopefully this will apply to the watercooling.

 

[Steeeeve]

i did not say a damn thing about the IHS skewing the results. i mentioned the poor calibration of the built in thermal diode. these are two seperate issues. litteracy is you ally.

i have read through intel thermal solution design guidelines, have you? intel knows that the user-accessable diode is poorly calibrated. they tell you to take a TTV, machine a groove into the IHS, and use a thermocouple probe to measure temperatures. don't think that a TTV is real world enough? you can do the same thing with a live proc, if you want. i wouldn't mind a review using that methodology. in spite of cathar's objections to the TTV and live CPUs, i think that the testing methodology is perfectly valid for comparing the relative performance of two waterblocks. if you are trying to generate absolute numbers, i don't think that it's a good method, however for product to product comparison it's just fine.

i don't take reviews using internal diode readings at all seriously. all of the reviews that show the apogee on equal footing with the storm use internal diode readings.

it would take one hell of a lot more than 3 or 4 mounts to get the margin for error down to something reasonable for live CPU testing. testing the max overclocks are also good, but once again it would take a lot of re-tests to get the margin for error to the point where a difference in overclocks can reliably be attributed to better cooling as opposed to you having sneezed on the motherboard prior to one test and not on another.

The point is, lets say you get different overclocks everytime...what does this tell you? It tells you that the "quality" of the part doesn't matter as much as you think. I seems to be the goal is to cool the processor and not to have a waterblock that absorbs a lot of heat. You could have a block that takes every ounce of heat out of the right corner of your CPU but what good is that? The truth is, you are limited because of the IHS and that is the way it is. If you get close but random overclocks with a the apogee and storm then chances are they are working the same...one costs $40 less. So which one would you use? The one that "in theory" would work better or the one that actually works the same but costs $40 less?

You are getting hostile when I don't really mean it to be...I am just saying you gotta look at the reality of what you are doing...which is cooling a processor...and then go with the product that does this the best and at the cheapest. The apogee is cheaper with the same results (even if the theoritical is not the same as the storm...although swifty says it is). The same is true with the mcw60 and mcw30. I think together this set up will actually outperform a storm with the same stuff because of the flow difference although I can't back that up right now.

 

[DangerIsGo]

I just ordered this block, I will report how well it cools my 7800gt. I decided to go with a vga block after putting my card in the freezer for an hour, then fridge to cool down and booted up the cold card. My overclock jumped about 25mhz on the core. Hopefully this will apply to the watercooling.

Which block? Stasis? or Swiftech?

 

[scwam]

the new one mcw60. if it can be easily opened up without braking it I'll post pics as unbiased proof of the whole shavings deal and you people can decided if it looks quality or not. I hope swiftech realizes people are willing to display their new unpicked blocks to everyone else, futher hurting or helping swiftech's image. I was reluctant to buy this block after seeing the pics, but I really decided to take a gamble at something new (as well as the cpu block I ordered too).

 

[arnemetis]

my mcw55 had some shavings in it when i got it too, so i dont see how it matters if its made usa or outsourced....crap like this will happen. i have no idea if my apogee had shavings or not, because one of the screws were rounded off when I got it

 

[Budwise]

my mcw55 had some shavings in it when i got it too, so i dont see how it matters if its made usa or outsourced....crap like this will happen. i have no idea if my apogee had shavings or not, because one of the screws were rounded off when I got it

NICE!!!

 

[CrimandEvil]

my mcw55 had some shavings in it when i got it too, so i dont see how it matters if its made usa or outsourced....crap like this will happen. i have no idea if my apogee had shavings or not, because one of the screws were rounded off when I got it

QC FTW!

 

[scwam]

They should raise the minimum working age in Macau to 6. Maybe we would get blocks that at least look better. Asians get better hand dexterity after they've had a few thousand hours of writing their characters.