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More Noob Advice

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dayofpain

n00b
Joined
Dec 30, 2006
Messages
22
ok so i searched around a bit and couldnt find a real for sure answer so i figured i just post and see if i get lucky.

So heres my rig:
qx6700 @ 3.9ghz and 1.6 volts
dominator pc 8888 at 2.45 volts 1111mhz
evga 680i mobo
evga 8800gtx x2
xfi extreme gamer sc
silverstone psu op1000

cooling setup:
swiftech mcw30 northbridge
vantec ccb v1 southbridge
swiftech apogee cpu block
gigabyte radiator 1x120mm
gigabyte res/pump setup
dominator ram cooler

so the system runs great, but its HOT like hot as hell. 3 different temp programs and the coldest one says 70c loaded, with each of the cores in the mid 60's.shes stable as hell overnight orthos and 4 way prime95. but i really think it needs to be colder.

im picking up 2 of the danger den 8800gtx water blocks the next time they are available. so heres the question when i grab those up. should i run two loops? one for graphics cards and one for cpu?

once thats sorted out if i changed to swiftech pump and a 2x120 rad. possibly even a storm block for some added punch. would it really drop my cpu temps that much? enough to make it worth it.

if the results from that would be moderate then perhaps i should swap to the double loop but instead of a storm block, grab up a swiftech pelt block. with a meanwell psu.

money isnt too big of a concern, i just want everything to last. thanks for any help/opinions people can give.
 
1.6 volts
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Without having the system in front of me and taking for granted all components are installed correctly and working, and the temp readings are accurate, it is my opinion that you are right on the edge of thermal runaway. What I am trying to say is that at that high voltage (and its very high imo) due to the several thermal interfaces, internal chip structure, chip silicon case, solder fill acting as heat transfer conduit from the chip to the heatspreader and heatspreader to water block, you cannot transfer heat away from the internal chip fast enough.

The other possibilty is that you do not have something installed correctly and I would suspect the waterblock mounting/clamping force is not optimal.

As far as the other stuff, yes if you add the gpu you will definately need to get a much better rad and pump. One loop / two loop your call, I like one loop, much less trouble. Temps who knows. /shrug. You have a great overclocking core there at almost 4 GHz, turn it down some before you burn it up.
 
For all that... Either get a really good PA120.2 radiator, or if at all possible, grab a triple radiator... You really won't regret it.

Let me be the first to say, "holy f*ucking sh*t" your system is powerful and I envy you.

Now, as for a storm block... That CPU runs with a TDP of 125w... The same as the high end FX series. Overclocked and overvolted (as you have it) running at 70c is quite high... but it's heat output should be just about 20% higher than an FX processor running around 3.1ghz. Storm blocks on an FX would get you in the high 40's load... so I'd imagine you'd stay under 60c with one. A MAJOR improvement. At that voltage/temperature, you're running the risk of burning something out.

2 GTX's and a QX6700 will dump (at stock) about 375w of heat into the loop... Pump, RAM and NB and you're up close to 425w. Overclocking will hit you up to about 500w easily. So, you need something to cope with that... You're looking at a radiator that can easily dissipate 1175 BTU/hr... Which almost singles out anything lower than a 3.120 radiator (this is all at 12v fans so far, if you wanna run at 7v you HAVE to get a 3.120, or a PA series radiator).
 
awesome guys thanks for the responses.

lets see if i can get through all of them and reply as intelligently as possible.

THANKS for saying my system is powerful. my 3dmark06 scores is 19k. barely into it though. and not on approved drivers. i really like the tweaksrus drivers for playing wow and bf2 so i use those. so i wont be setting any world records anytime soon.

whats scary is i can run it even hotter. the other day when it was 10 degrees here i set the case outside and pumped it up even more. hit 4.1ghz orthos 4 hours stable and i shut it down. voltage was at 1.65. i was too chicken to run 3dmark cause when my sli is pumpin the case gets even hotter.

the storm block answer is what i was looking for but for how much heat im dumping in do you think that the peltier block would be a better solution? better as in cost effective. now let me elaborate on what I believe is cost effective. lets say the storm block drops my temps 20 degrees and costs 90 bucks. 4.50 per degree. (using generalizations so please no flaming). now lets say the pelt block and psu costs 120 and 220 respectively. so 340 bucks which means it would have to cool around 75 degrees better than what i have now. that might be a bit unrealistic. id be happy with 250% better than the storm. most likely not going to happen but i could be wrong.

now if i run a single loop, i really am restricted into using 2x 120x2 rads. rather than a triple rad. because of the space restrictions and current config of my rig. SO, if i use two rads will i need 2 pumps? if im going to double on everything should i split up the two loops or would it really be easier to run one large single loop? im assuming that a single loop with two rads will go like this

pump > cpu > northbridge > rad#1 > gpu#1 > gpu#2 > rad#2 > res/filport

whereas a two loop system would be

pump > gpu#1 > gpu#2 > rad > res

pump > cpu > northbridge > rad > res

Also, I will be taking my blocks off and lapping them. reapplying my coollab and hoping for better results. as far as block pressure on the cpu how would be a good way to test that? im using the apogee hold downs and they prevent extreme pressure on the block. the nuts are closed ended and only screw on so far. i seem to have good contact but if theres a test or methodolgy i dont know about please enlighten me.

thanks again for your replys.
 
the storm block answer is what i was looking for but for how much heat im dumping in do you think that the peltier block would be a better solution? better as in cost effective. now let me elaborate on what I believe is cost effective. lets say the storm block drops my temps 20 degrees and costs 90 bucks. 4.50 per degree. (using generalizations so please no flaming). now lets say the pelt block and psu costs 120 and 220 respectively. so 340 bucks which means it would have to cool around 75 degrees better than what i have now. that might be a bit unrealistic. id be happy with 250% better than the storm. most likely not going to happen but i could be wrong.
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Well... In order for a peltier to work, you need to have it rated higher than your heat dump (of THAT part) by at least 30%... A stock QX6700 will be dumping about 130W heat at full power... Look for at least 180w at your current OC... Which means, you need a good 250w peltier to get great cooling, before you're bottlenecked.

No doubt that a peltier unit would cool at least to below ambient (you're lookng at closer to 5-10'c I'd not expect a sub-0 temperature)... but remember that you MUST worry about CONDENSATION... something that lots of newer users might not enjoy too much... Condensation is SMARTER than you are, and it knows that.


now if i run a single loop, i really am restricted into using 2x 120x2 rads. rather than a triple rad. because of the space restrictions and current config of my rig. SO, if i use two rads will i need 2 pumps? if im going to double on everything should i split up the two loops or would it really be easier to run one large single loop? im assuming that a single loop with two rads will go like this
Click to expand...

Shouldn't be a problem. Most GOOD pumps (read the alphacool modded pump or a DD-D5/MCP655 are perfect) would be FINE with 2 radiators, and 3 waterblocks.

Two loops are hard as hell to setup properly... and generally not worth it. A single rad with a double radiator or two would cool better than a triple radiator too.

Also, I will be taking my blocks off and lapping them. reapplying my coollab and hoping for better results. as far as block pressure on the cpu how would be a good way to test that? im using the apogee hold downs and they prevent extreme pressure on the block. the nuts are closed ended and only screw on so far. i seem to have good contact but if theres a test or methodolgy i dont know about please enlighten me.
Click to expand...

Hmmm... As for this, you might wanna consider making your own mechanism? I always make my own hold-down kit... Some 2" 6-32 screws and some 6-32 bolts are great for holding that stuff down. All can be had for under 5$ at Home Depot (if there's one in your area, once again, I have no idea where you live)

You could probably replace the nuts with some Wing nuts... I've done that too. Helps alot.

Don't bother lapping... most blocks come good from the factory, at least Swiftech's do.

Awesome guys thanks for the responses.
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Anytime... You speak well and use good grammar, I always go outta my way (as much as possible) to help people that can write COHERENTLY online ;)
 
alrighty then!

so heres more questions. i looked around for a good condensation protection guide but couldnt find one. i dont fear anything like that just want to see what its like before i take the plunge. any good ones off hand ? lots of pelt guides but no condensation proofing lessons.

second, would i be better getting the swiftech pelt block with cooler, or getting say a storm to cool the hot side of the pelt? better meaning cost efffective and reliable.

awesome so it looks like single loop with one pump as im eyeing the swiftech 655 so that should be no problem for this monster.

im assuming you sentence was supposed to read...

A single rad(Loop)* with a double radiator or two would cool better than a triple radiator too. which would make a ton more sense.

as for the lapping heres the problem. i use coollab liquid metal and when it dries its well. metal. so you have to lap it off in order for it to be perfectly flat again. that i did NOT do last time. i gave it a quick sand and then used as5 for the thermal prep. so that could account for a few degrees here and there. also be grabbing some wingnuts out of the garage to get the block a bit tighter once i do that. for now i have dropped her down to 3.6ghz and reduced voltage to 1.5. she back down to 60 loaded and low fifty idle. makes me feel better untill i get the real loop in there.

thanks again!
 
so heres more questions. i looked around for a good condensation protection guide but couldnt find one. i dont fear anything like that just want to see what its like before i take the plunge. any good ones off hand ? lots of pelt guides but no condensation proofing lessons.
Click to expand...

Can't think of one offhand, but I know you'll need some good insulation, and use a good TIM material (ie NOT AS5) between the processor and the block. The swiftech block is just as good as pairing it with a storm, as the storm is more geared to small areas of heat production (IE a CPU die) whereas a peltier is a very LARGE area of heat production


im assuming you sentence was supposed to read...

A single rad(Loop)* with a double radiator or two would cool better than a triple radiator too. which would make a ton more sense.
Click to expand...

:eek: Yep... sorry... typo...

awesome so it looks like single loop with one pump as im eyeing the swiftech 655 so that should be no problem for this monster.
Click to expand...

Yep, that's what I use too. Great pump if you buy it with the TDX @ dangerdenstore.com... you get a 15% discount...

dayofpain said:
alrighty then!
as for the lapping heres the problem. i use coollab liquid metal and when it dries its well. metal. so you have to lap it off in order for it to be perfectly flat again. that i did NOT do last time. i gave it a quick sand and then used as5 for the thermal prep. so that could account for a few degrees here and there.
Click to expand...

Oh, well... For lapping (and that's the reason I don't use the coolaboratory liquid pro) just pick up a few sheets of 800, 1000 and 2000 grit sandpaper. You SHOULD be able to heat the TIM up with a lighter to get it to bubble up, and quickly brush it off. It should remain a liquid as it doesn't (shouldn't?) alloy with copper...

And yeah... if it's a rough base, I'm certain you'll be loading a few (4-5) degrees higher than a fresh lapped block.
 
what would be a good TIM i could pick up then? still searching for a condesation guide. if anyone lurking around has seen one please post it up! didnt mean to bust yer balls on the typo but i took a few minutes before i realized what u were trying to say, didnt want to draw the wrong conclusion. im going to try the flame method to remove my coollab. hopefully that will work. if not no big deal as im very familiar with lapping. i even have 2 lap stones that are 3k+ grit.

thanks again man.
 
Lapping stones eh? That's nice...

No worries on the typo :D

As for the condenstation guide, look for how they proof boards before going Phase Change...
 
Swiftech actually has a very nice installation guide for their TEC blocks. The XS TEC Forums has some helpful info in there also.

I've been doing some research myself on TEC and I'm just not sure about it yet. Seems like a lot of work and potential problems for the lower temps. It says, somewhere on the Swiftech site, that you can expect 2-3% OC improvement for every 10c drop in temps. I would expect being able to drop temps 20-30c with a 275w TEC thus giving a 200-300mhz potential increase in fsb. My calculations may be wrong but I bet they aren't too far off. Is that worth it? To some people I guess. I think I just talked myself out of it.

Nice rig by the way :cool:
 
Sideroxylon said:
Swiftech actually has a very nice installation guide for their TEC blocks. The XS TEC Forums has some helpful info in there also.

I've been doing some research myself on TEC and I'm just not sure about it yet. Seems like a lot of work and potential problems for the lower temps. It says, somewhere on the Swiftech site, that you can expect 2-3% OC improvement for every 10c drop in temps. I would expect being able to drop temps 20-30c with a 275w TEC thus giving a 200-300mhz potential increase in fsb. My calculations may be wrong but I bet they aren't too far off. Is that worth it? To some people I guess. I think I just talked myself out of it.

Nice rig by the way :cool:
Click to expand...

is getting raped by your electricity provider worth those 200-300mhz?
 
Personally, the only place I think a TEC is worth it, is for your graphics cards... or cooling a room down in the summer.

8800GTX with a TEC and some hardcore Vmods might reach 800mhz core. Could you IMAGINE? Single card benchmarks (3Dmark06) in the 15k's
 
good lookin out on that tec guide from swiftech. it was exactly what i was looking for. as for getting raped by the power company... well ill just get my roomate in the teeth the next time he leaves his room lights on when hes out of town for a month. problem solved.

as for the cost to benefit ratio, I look at it like this. right now my processor is stable (orthos and prime95) at 3.9ghz at 70c loaded. now thats unsafe, we all know that. so my basic and attainable goal is just to cool off what I have now. if i could get to 20-30c loaded. id be pleased to say the least. im not shooting for some unattainable speed or overclock. i just want to cooldown what I have already got. to be perfectly honest i know my processor is stable to x14 and my mobo/ram and proc is also stable to 1850fsb. So, hopefully if i can cool this bitch down then i can up the voltage to like 1.7 or even 1.75 and get to 4ghz. not too shabby on non phase for a kentsfield. at least in my own opinion. which doesnt mean much. i r teh noob afterall. i just figure since my graphic cards will continue to increase in speed the faster my proc gets I want to wring that out before i really dive into working the video cards.

the lapping stones are fun. they arent really stones if you havent seen one before. they are used for lapping motor parts. its a large flat piece of metal at a specific grit. usually in the +4k range. i use them for building my race engines.

i think what im going to do is pickup the swiftech pump and 2 120x2 rads. then ill wait till the new swiftech block comes out in 2 weeks. if its all that and a bag of chips then ill rock that, if not ill grab the swiftech prebuilt tec and a meanwell. i dont really want to go to the other companies block cause i dont feel the need for a 476 watt pelt as my first. also it seems to cause a poop-ton of condesation which i dont believe im ready to deal with on a day to day basis. i just feel better doing baby steps.
 
Well, look. Sometimes you need to do what you WANT to do. If you have your heart set on getting a peltier block, and can see through the negatives of it, while understanding the positives, who are we to tell you you're not correct?

It's your case, so do what you want. I can guarentee you that you won't regret your purchase down the road, as you're going to get awesome performance from it! Clear and simple. So go for it. Make sure your peltier is rated for at least 275w and have fun, I'd LOVE to have a project like this, but I simply don't have the time.

As for a lapping stone... well, I've got a 3500 grit lapping stone (or as I call it, plate, cuz it's quite large) which is mounted on a piece of glass that's resessed into a wooden desk. That way I get an ABSOLUTE flat finish when lapping things. I got the stone for 7$ at a garage sale! (so I'm not 100% it's 3500, but it sure feels like it... almost like velvet)

Yes, that storm block isn't the best because of the pin-design in it... It's smaller and made for a single die, the quad cores are 2 dies, therefore the optimal cooling zone isn't 100% over both of them. I just didn't have any proof of this... Thanks for the link.

That's a good decision on the wait for the swiftech block, I might grab one myself too. hopefully it'll come with a diamond inlay (like some other [H]er is experimenting with!)
 
Well, wait 2 weeks if you want the likely new (hopefully readily available) multi-core performance king from Swiftech. http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=128243

With that much heat, it will easily pay off to get a triple radiator. If you really want a peltier, if you want sub-ambient temperatures, you should be looking at a pelt twice the thermal output. Unfortunately, peliter blocks haven't been revised in years, although modern radiators can make up for this.

If you do want to go with a pelt, your only realistic option will be a good 3x120 radiator for the qx6700 (possibly another if you have a 300 or 437 watt pelt + that beast OCd). In addition, your 8800gxts will need a 2x120. However, before you get into pelts, get a 3x120 and a DDC rev2 in your current loop. The Gigabyte rad and pump you have now are horribly underpoweredfor your OCd 6700.

If you do need/want to keep your NB/SB/ram WCd, your old pump and rad will be more than enough. Those restrictive blocks will only hold back your 8800s and 6700 (in the 6700's case, further restrict its flow).

And another person green with envy over your rig
wink.gif
Get pics.
 
alrighty so i think i have a game plan.

ordered my danger den blocks for my 8800's done deal

sent an email to arctic web, W labs in order to get the 426watt pelt. they were discontinued but I have heard that if you contact them direct you can them made on a one by one basis. IF that goes through ill grab up the 24volt meanwell and get nuts. if i cant get that tec then ill just stay water alone until the new swiftech block comes out.

until that happens heres the game plan.

swiftech655 > apogee > radiator#1 2x120 swiftech > northbridge > gpu block #1 > gpu block #2 > radiator #2 2x120 swiftech > reso

stuffing it all in my tj07 case. shouldnt be too rough. the swiftech rads, one will fit prefect along the top where the 2x120 vent is. im going to remove one of the hard drive racks in the lower section and move it to the top with the new silverstone hard drive rack. second rad willl go in the lower section near the psu. the res will mount nicely near the mobo vertically. the pump will finish out perfect below the 5.25 bays.
 
Don't worry too much about component sequence when running your wc'ing. Just route the tubing the shortest and easiest way for your setup. Water temp is fairly constant throughout the loop regardless of component placement. Make sure your res is feeding your pump, for easy priming, and you should be good to go.
 
yeah wasnt too concerned with order more concerned with missing something IN the order.

btw as an update, the fire trick didnt work, so i lapped all my blocks. 11c colder under load. high 50's loaded and mid forties idle. ill get the wingnuts today and see if that helps.

system should be here for the weekend. so ill be postin up some pics of what i get going with it.
 
1.6v's on that CPU is going to net you high temps regardless of the waterblock. You need phase change type cooling to get low temps with that configuration.
 
alrighty, heres an update.

laid out most of the parts today. and well i cant do it. i cant make a single loop work unless i really chow the order or I use about 3x as much line as i should. so i grabbed a second pump and im going to try to make a dual setup work. the way its laid out it just seems like it will work a ton better like this. ill start shooting pictures as I get somewhere. i also am going to order a wintsch labs peltier block. just in case i still dont have enough cooling power.
 
Kinda makes sense for you to run 2 loops since you have 2 rads anyways. Especially if you run that pelt. Very interested to see how things work out for you concerning that pelt. Keep us updated. Your results may dictate whether or not I decide to get into the world of sub-ambient cooling.

Good luck!!!
 
Arcygenical said:
Anytime... You speak well and use good grammar, I always go outta my way (as much as possible) to help people that can write COHERENTLY online ;)
Click to expand...
Illiteracy keeps me up at night.

I would also add, the D5 pump is VERY powerful.

Check my signature, my chipset block is pretty damn restrictive, this pump powers through it at any setting just fine, no sign of stress at all.

dayofpain said:
alrighty, heres an update.

laid out most of the parts today. and well i cant do it. i cant make a single loop work unless i really chow the order or I use about 3x as much line as i should. so i grabbed a second pump and im going to try to make a dual setup work. the way its laid out it just seems like it will work a ton better like this. ill start shooting pictures as I get somewhere. i also am going to order a wintsch labs peltier block. just in case i still dont have enough cooling power.
Click to expand...

I would say to just run the Video Cards on a single loop.

Everything else on another loop obviously.

It's not hard to "make it work" it's just time consuming.
 
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