mITX build. Need some advice.

I

ithanium2

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Hello. I currently own an Intel E5200 @ 3.6GHz, 4GB Ram and 9800GT normal sized computer. It's 2.5 years old but it still manages to satisfy my gaming needs.
My plan is to build a new PC that hopefully wont need an upgrade for atleast minimum 2 years. I plan to game on that PC at 1920 x 1080 resolutions and medium-high quality.

But let's talk detail.

CPU: It will probably be an Intel i5 2500. k or non k, depends on some issues that i will post below.
Since AMD Bulldozer release is soon. I can wait 1, maximum 2 months with the build. I am skeptical tho. SB is an amazing cpu, and AMD always had higher TDP.
Cooling Absolutely not WC. Either a stock or a decent aftermarket cooler like shuriken or samuel.
Mainboard: If i will use a 2500 non k, I want either the ASRock or the Zotac MB. But knowing that Zotac has some problems with it's wifi, I'm inclined to get the asrock one.
One thing tho. Does asrock support cpu undervolting?

GPU: Nvidia GTX 560Ti, Probably the MSI build.

Aand... my major issue the CASE.
I am only interested in 2 models here. Silverstone Sugo SG05 or Sugo SG07.

As far as SG07 goes, i haven't found any bad reviews of it. My personal opinions about it are:
+ very good looking
+ strong PSU
+ can hold i7 + GTX 580/6970
+ 180MM fan that cools the entire mainboard
- it is a bit expensive
- it is a bit large

On the other hand the SG05
+ good priced
+good looking
+small size
-questionable psu
-questionable airflow


Sure, you could say, go for the SG07 it's 50euros more expensive, it is still a small case and it's a newer design.

But I really like the Sg05 it;s so small :)

So let's sum it up.
i5 2500 (non k) + asrock h67itx + 8GB ddr3 (1.5v) + MSI 560Ti + slim dvdrom + SSD/notebook hdd + 3.5" HDD + SG05-450W. Would this work?

Reason I am asking, I saw the chirping thread. Would it work with an SG05 with the 300W PSU.

The Would it work?...not boot/pass some stress tests. I'm refering to a 24/7 use more or less.

I found something interesting on ebay.de. I cant find SG07 or SG05-450W in my country so I will buy it from abroad.
A company selling already built computers with similar spec, but using the normal 300W psu.
http://cgi.ebay.de/Sugo-SG05-Quad-i...ripheriegeräte_PC_Systeme&hash=item27ba180eda


Sorry for the chaotic post. I got so many questions, I am abit undecided, I have a limited budget. And as I was saying, I want this system to last me atleast 2 years. I don't want to regret the investment.
 
ithanium2 said:
CPU: It will probably be an Intel i5 2500. k or non k, depends on some issues that i will post below.
Click to expand...
No way to overclock with any H67 ITX, so no reason to have a 2500K...:(
BUT, if you want upgrade to a Z68 when it comes out, you can, so go with the "K"!:D

ithanium2 said:
Since AMD Bulldozer release is soon. I can wait 1, maximum 2 months with the build. I am skeptical tho. SB is an amazing cpu, and AMD always had higher TDP.
Click to expand...
Agreed, SB rocks, badly!:cool:
GO Sandy!

ithanium2 said:
Cooling Absolutely not WC. Either a stock or a decent aftermarket cooler like shuriken or samuel.
Click to expand...
NO shuriken, doesn't fit.
YES Samuel 17: nice, decent cooling, and you can pick your favorite fan (12cm)

ithanium2 said:
Mainboard: If i will use a 2500 non k, I want either the ASRock or the Zotac MB. But knowing that Zotac has some problems with it's wifi, I'm inclined to get the asrock one.
One thing tho. Does asrock support cpu undervolting?
Click to expand...
Zotac has many other potential problems than only the WiFi module. Bad reputation, check customer reviews online. I purchased a IONITX-D-E and was unstable, then I got a GF-9300-G-E WiFI and was very good. 50% failure to me. Moreover, Zotac Customer service is quite nonexistent.
AsRock has a good reputation and the 2 1155 ITX available are affordable and with good customer reviews. Many people switched from a DOA ITX to AsRock and now are happy.


ithanium2 said:
GPU: Nvidia GTX 560Ti, Probably the MSI build.
Click to expand...
Good choice!

ithanium2 said:
Aand... my major issue the CASE.
I am only interested in 2 models here. Silverstone Sugo SG05 or Sugo SG07.

As far as SG07 goes, i haven't found any bad reviews of it. My personal opinions about it are:
+ very good looking
+ strong PSU
+ can hold i7 + GTX 580/6970
+ 180MM fan that cools the entire mainboard
- it is a bit expensive
- it is a bit large

On the other hand the SG05
+ good priced
+good looking
+small size
-questionable psu
-questionable airflow


Sure, you could say, go for the SG07 it's 50euros more expensive, it is still a small case and it's a newer design.

But I really like the Sg05 it;s so small :)
Click to expand...
Perfectly agree with everything you say.;)
I find the SG07 the best call, though; even if bigger, you can put your components better and can host a 12" VGA.
Most importantly, it'll stand better the time (in 2 year the SG05 will seem quite obsolete...)

ithanium2 said:
So let's sum it up.
i5 2500 (non k) + asrock h67itx + 8GB ddr3 (1.5v) + MSI 560Ti + slim dvdrom + SSD/notebook hdd + 3.5" HDD + SG05-450W. Would this work?

Reason I am asking, I saw the chirping thread. Would it work with an SG05 with the 300W PSU.

The Would it work?...not boot/pass some stress tests. I'm refering to a 24/7 use more or less.

I found something interesting on ebay.de. I cant find SG07 or SG05-450W in my country so I will buy it from abroad.
A company selling already built computers with similar spec, but using the normal 300W psu.
http://cgi.ebay.de/Sugo-SG05-Quad-i...ripheriegeräte_PC_Systeme&hash=item27ba180eda


Sorry for the chaotic post. I got so many questions, I am abit undecided, I have a limited budget. And as I was saying, I want this system to last me atleast 2 years. I don't want to regret the investment.
Click to expand...
I have no experience with any SG05, but I would use the 450W anyways.
 
The 450w has had several issues as of late with them being flakey. I would sport the extra money & get the sg07 due to it having the 600w psu. Also the Scythe Shuriken will fit an 1156 or 1155 board, but the big shuriken will not. This said intel stock HSF's are typically pretty damn quiet & cool well enough if not overclocking & since you wont be I would just stick to stock.
 
Thank you for your replies.
I guess ill get some cardboard boxes and try to "simulate" their sizes.

Regarding the future upgrades in same case, I dont know, the general thought is go to a lower nm fabricating process, less heat and less power consumption so i guess both of them could store future components

My concern is the reliability of the psu's. On the SG05 PSU's there seems to be mixed signals.
What about the SG07 PSU?
 
Z68 supposedly will be out next week, so worth waiting just in case.

Sandy Bridge does a great job underclocking/undervolting itself when it is idle, so no need to try messing with undervolting. Just make sure all the power management is enabled and working.

If you can keep yourself from overclocking anything and from running stuff like Folding or Furmark that draws an inordinate amount of power, then probably the 300W PSU will work. It only has one 6-pin PCIe power plug so you will have to use an adapter. The graphics card may come with one.

If not overclocking, just use the stock cooler and allow the motherboard to control the fan speed.
 
I have to say the SG07 PSU is fantastic. My previous build had an i7-875K (not 930 duh!) heavily overclocked along with a ATI 5970. I never had any issues at all with it. I only went larger to an mATX to hopefully SLI some 580s.
 
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trungerz said:
I have to say the SG07 PSU is fantastic. My previous build had an i7-930 heavily overclocked along with a ATI 5970. I never had any issues at all with it. I only went larger to an mATX to hopefully SLI some 580s.
Click to expand...

SG07 can't house X58 systems so there is no way you can house an i7 930 on that case...

I guess you only had the PSU?
 
If you have doubts/worries about the SG05's psu, and you have a right to be legitimately concerned/worried, then your only real choice is the SG07. It allows for a larger psu and also a larger gpu, which is something gamers like to have. One bit of information you left out is if you plan on carrying the rig to other places. If its just going to sit on a desk then the SG07's size is not that big of a problem I would say.

Until Silverstone fix's the psu problem in the SG05 I find it hard to recommend although I did see one person mod a 500w psu in one by doing some minor dremeling to the rear of the case. Its shown in the SG05 thread.
 
It will move sometimes, from my room to my living room from time to time.
I am aware of the modding of the case, so it can fit a normal PSU. But, how much room for the CPU cooler then? If i remember right, he had a H50 on cpu, and as i said i dont want WC. Not to mention that a H50 implies additional modding.

What bugs me is that german site. They sell i5+gtx560ti+normal hdd+sugo sg05 the 300W version. Is that even possibile? I mean, you guys said that shuriken won't even fit. Not to mention that if they sell it as a whole, they offer some warranty on their product.
http://www.extremeware.de/media/extremeware_Gamebox_4_GTX560.html?TB_iframe=1&width=900&height=600
 
ithanium2 said:
What bugs me is that german site. They sell i5+gtx560ti+normal hdd+sugo sg05 the 300W version. Is that even possibile? I mean, you guys said that shuriken won't even fit. Not to mention that if they sell it as a whole, they offer some warranty on their product.
http://www.extremeware.de/media/extremeware_Gamebox_4_GTX560.html?TB_iframe=1&width=900&height=600
Click to expand...
If they sell this combination, I suppose it's fine.:rolleyes:
I remember that the Shuriken can touch the VGA, so someone put electric tape or some sort of insulation between the cooler and the card.
I went for the Thermalright AXP-140 in a PC-Q08 for my system, but I suppose it's too big for your setting.
The Samuel would be perfect.;)
 
Mousemagician said:
If they sell this combination, I suppose it's fine.:rolleyes:
I remember that the Shuriken can touch the VGA, so someone put electric tape or some sort of insulation between the cooler and the card.
I went for the Thermalright AXP-140 in a PC-Q08 for my system, but I suppose it's too big for your setting.
The Samuel would be perfect.;)
Click to expand...

the samuel is a horrible cooler for the price. IF you dont get the axp-140, which is the best IMO, just get the scythe revision B. it fits tight but is totally do-able, even with a backplate on the gpu
 
cj3waker said:
the samuel is a horrible cooler for the price. IF you dont get the axp-140, which is the best IMO, just get the scythe revision B. it fits tight but is totally do-able, even with a backplate on the gpu
Click to expand...
I trust you about the Samuel, I never tested it.
The AXP is fantastic, but huge. It fits nicely with any VGA, and it covers entirely the surface of a ITX board.
Here my Gigabyte ITX with the AXP-140
axp14023.jpg

It still impresses me...:eek:
 
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Thanks for that. I will use it, but still i want to place it in certain places in my house and see how it fits.
About the thermalright heatsink. It looks damn huge, but i have some questions. Does it fit well on an asrock h67itx? Can i still place a VGA? What fan can i put on AXP?
How many milimeters between the AXP+fan and the PSU?

If i decide to go with the sugo sg05 with 300w psu, mod the case and put my CoolerMaster SilentPro 500W PSU, will atleast a stock intel cooler have room in there? Also the dvd-rom and a normal Hdd? would they all fit?
 
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ithanium2 said:
Thanks for that. I will use it, but still i want to place it in certain places in my house and see how it fits.
About the thermalright heatsink. It looks damn huge, but i have some questions. Does it fit well on an asrock h67itx? Can i still place a VGA? What fan can i put on AXP?
How many milimeters between the AXP+fan and the PSU?
Click to expand...
I posted my building thread to help answering these questions.:eek:
Free to check them out!;)
ithanium2 said:
If i decide to go with the sugo sg05 with 300w psu, mod the case and put my CoolerMaster SilentPro 500W PSU, will atleast a stock intel cooler have room in there? Also the dvd-rom and a normal Hdd? would they all fit?
Click to expand...
No clue, but it sounds like extremely cool!:eek:
 
Ok, I have done some reading and I am very close in taking a decision over the SG05.

Incoming wall of text with quotes.

(12-15-2010) Miahallen said:
So I've been running with the 5870 in the box for quite some time now, and the
stuttering is still present.....but as I've continued to monitor the power draw, I've
realized that the original 300W PSU that came with the case, should be able to handle
the current load. So, I swapped the 300W PSU back into the box a few days ago, and the
stuttering is gone, the system runs perfectly! :doh:
Click to expand...

( 12-20-2010) Miahallen said:
I've been running my i5 750 @ 4GHz with 1.4V and my 5870 at 850/1250 with 1.1V for
over a week now....I played about 8 hours of Just Cause 2 last night without a
problem.....all off the original 300W PSU. I think I'm convinced it is a better PSU
Click to expand...

( 02-26-2011) Miahallen said:
The only sore spot I've encounterd is the PSU. A lot of people warned me that the PSU
was not enough...and while I proved them wrong to some extent....they proved to be
right in the real world.
The 450W Silverstone PSU has questionable build quality, and I've only tested two,
they've shown the same issue, but to varying degrees. The PSU makes an audible
"chirping" sound when the GPU is working hard, and it causes a "stuttering" effect on
screen.
This occured with the GTX 480 as well as the 5870 (although to lesser extent). The
300W FSP unit which came with the case, does not exibit this behavior with the 5870
(but I was not brave enough to try the GTX 480 with it).
After the first month, I had tested two 450W units, and both were not suitable for
24/7 operations, so I've switched back to the 300W stock unit and the 5870 graphics
card, and I've been happily gaming ever since. The 300W stock unit seems to be a very
good quality PSU capable of powering the system without issue.
So, to answer your question, if I were to build the system again knowing what I know
now, I would use the stock 300W unit, and subdue my desires for a power hungery beast
like the GTX 480. Other than that, I've been very happy with the configuration, and
wouldn't change a thing
Click to expand...

(12-15-2010) D4rkn3ss said:
on a second note i'm running since may on the FSP300-60GHS and never experienced any kind of issue (SG05/GTX470/i5-650/vraptor600gb)"
Click to expand...


(01-17-2011) D4rkn3ss said:
not a "natural" load you say but i have a few hundred hours of CUDA video encoding on
the 300w model. that's full GPU + CPU @ 4 threads forced at high priority and i have
ZERO issues with this power supply for almost a year. that's way beyond any game load
and probably furmark tests on the power supply (and i have done crazy 12hrs straight
gaming sessions on this little toy + tested furmark @ default clocks).
Click to expand...

They were running 1156 socket cpu-s and similar VGA's but i think the power consumption is kinda the same.

On the other hand, there is 1legged_sheep's build, which is more or less what i want. I want a MSI 560GTX and an additional 3,5" HDD. http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1600828


Now my conclusion is that i should get the 300W SG05. This rises a problem. The 560Ti requires 2 x 6pin connectors, but the PSU has just 1. Yes, I will use a molex adapter, but on which lane? the one that already has 1 connector, or the other?
 
ithanium2 said:
Now my conclusion is that i should get the 300W SG05. This rises a problem. The 560Ti requires 2 x 6pin connectors, but the PSU has just 1. Yes, I will use a molex adapter, but on which lane? the one that already has 1 connector, or the other?
Click to expand...

Hi,
I had SG06 a I7-2600K on the Zotac H67-ITX and a AMD 6850 with a Coolermaster GeminII Swith PSU-fan blowing upwards into the PSU. GeminII S is about as good as the prolimatech samuel.

My config uses about 250W under full load (8xprime and furmark). However, the PSU got extremely hot at full load, and at the end blew completely. So air cooling with the 300W PSU did not work properly.

I then changed to the 450W version and a Corsair H60, which works perfectly.

I'd strongly recommend the SG05-450W if you use a 560Ti, and the H60 mounted on the front, with the radiator-fan blowing outwards to the front. You will have no cooling issues that way, and a very silent system.

I am aware that you don't want watercooling, but with the H60 you don't even know it's water in there. The only point is that you have to remove the 3,5" cage, and cut a part of the 2,5" cage, but you will still be able to put a 2,5" disc there. Furthermore, you can place two 2,5" discs under the radiator/fan in front of the motherboard, like I did with 2xVertex 3 120GB in a Raid0.

best regards
mariachi76
 
Hmm. Interesting info and noted tho explain me somethings when you had the 300w PSU and gemini.
1. Did you flip the PSU so it's fan would take air from outside the case?
2. Isn't the cpu fan supposed to blow the air into the heatsing and in the mainboard?

Regarding the issue of why I don't want a WC system.
1. I have to remove the hdd/odd cages. Tho you said i can still have the ODD and that is ok.
2. You will have to remove the intake fan, and witthout a fan on the cpu, there will be 0 airflow in the case, so no cooling on the mainboard.
 
i've got your message ithanium2, its been some time since i last checked out here so..

mine is running over a year 24/7 without any issues. i mounted the PSU flipped from the start because performance is severely affected by temperature on PSUs so it obviously make more sense flipped.

the 300w model 12v lines are one for pcie and other for molex so you use the adaptor on the molex connection, i also have hooked on the same line the dvd and the intake fan on a 7v mod (enermax with led).

i dont know what to say for the 450w, is cheap and is available at my local store but the 300w actually surpassed my expectations, its very good so i decided not to bother with that. both PSUs will power your planned rig but i cant recommend the 450w.

i hope this little info help and good luck! (i love my SG05, is soo cute :p)
 
Thanks a milion, every bit of information matters to me, since I'm on a limited budget and I plan to make this investment so it can hold me for atleast 2 years, I don't want to make a mistake in choosing the components.
Are you using WC or a normal air cooler for the CPU?

All I can hope now is for miahallen to answer to my PM and get some info from 1legged_sheep.

Now that the PSU issue is almost sorted. I need some input on the temperatures and noise
 
im on air. i zip tied a 12cm delta on top of the intel stock cooler provisionally to find a better option later.. it happened that it worked so well that i didnt had to :p

as an advice, unless for the feeling of be using watercooling, is totaly pointless to do so because youll need a fan blowing directly on the motherboard components and chipset on the SG05.
 
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yes. Thats one of the main reasons i don't want WC.
If i put WC the frontal intake fan goes out, not to mention the fact that a normal 120mm cooler will blow air on almost all the MB.

That delta...is it silent?
 
on 5v it is :p

little toy is dead silent (front fan on 7v and delta on 5v) excepting the GTX470 that drives me crazy sometimes..
 
ow my.. i was reading my posts.. i hope you understood what ive written.. english is not my language and i was on a mad hangover from friday night.. oh well, today its fucking saturday and im gonna do it all over again. cheers :D
 
ithanium2 said:
Hmm. Interesting info and noted tho explain me somethings when you had the 300w PSU and gemini.
1. Did you flip the PSU so it's fan would take air from outside the case?
Click to expand...

The PSU-fan was facing downwards, but taking air from inside the case. So the aifrolo was: Geminii->CPU-Fan blowing upwards blowing into the PSU-fan->PSU-> outside. But the PSU got too hot.

2. Isn't the cpu fan supposed to blow the air into the heatsing and in the mainboard?

Well, either way normally works. But in the SG05/06, when you blow air into the heatsink, i.e. downwards, and the PSU-fan is blowing upwards, that wouldn't work since the fans work against each other.

ithanium2 said:
Regarding the issue of why I don't want a WC system.
1. I have to remove the hdd/odd cages. Tho you said i can still have the ODD and that is ok.
2. You will have to remove the intake fan, and witthout a fan on the cpu, there will be 0 airflow in the case, so no cooling on the mainboard.
Click to expand...


As I said, ODD and 1x 2,5" still fit. I mounted the radiator where the fan originally is, and the fan is mounted on the radiator blowing the hot air out through the front. The 450W-PSU is still mounted with fan facing down blowing outwards.

So basically, now the air enters through the right side where the chipset ist due to the lower pressure inside, and is then exhausted by the PSU in the back, and the front fan.
Airflow on the motherboard is good. I had no problems with that setup with 8xprime95 and furmark on the 6850 running parallel.
With this extreme (but unrealistic) load, the CPU gets close to 75°C after an hour with 25°C ambient, and the front fan temperature controlled at 1300rpm at the end. This is still ok, but will be much better with an i5-2600 and an SG05. In the SG06, the air in the front leaves only through the side vents of the front panel, which quite restricts the airflow. In the SG05, this will be way better.


regards
mariachi76
 
Honestly, I don't understand why didn't you flip your PSU.
That lower air pressure is crap imo, You still have a fan on the CPU that generates pressure. For all i know, you want a higher air pressure so the hot air gets out through all the case perforations.

My therory.
We can ignore the right side, a big VGA kinda blocks everything there. It won't have hearing problem since it "breathes" from outside.
The flipped psu with fan up. It takes air from upper side and blows hot air in back, through PSU holes. It's a closed circuit here aswell so it doesnt affect the case airflow.
You have the front fan which brings cool air in the case and generates high pressure, air that will be used by the cpu fan to cool the heatsink and all mainboard.
All the hot air now will most likely exit through sides, and since the right side is blocked by the video card, it will exit through the left side.

Now here i noticed a little design flaw in SG05, but some people "fixed" it with some mods.
The space between the PSU and the motherboard connectors, on the back side, allows for 3 50mm fans, to work as an exhaust for hot air. There is also the option of mounting a crossflow fan there. http://www.silverstonetek.com/products/p_spec.php?pno=fx121&area=usa
But i reckon that even just simply drilling some holes there, would still help a little bit.

LE:

Now I am also thinking about LianLi PC08B. Except the fact that it's bigger(which is quite a big downside for me, but still other things might overcompensate), it seems to have a better airflow. I question the video card positioning tho. The holes in the bottom of the case seem quite small, not to mention that the bottom of the case is a dust magnet.

I would love to have some info of temperatures in the SG05, CPU (aircooled, stock prefered), video card, but more important MB and HDD temperatures. Also would like to know how hot does the case feel to touch, when stress testing or during heavy gaming sessions. I know it's aluminum and it's ok for it to be hot, because the whole case works like a heatsink, but still.
Also wondering about noise, and vibration.
 
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I'm wondering what's the best GPU that can go in the SG05 /w 300W PSU.
AMD 6950 1GB or GTX560Ti. Someone told me that the AMD has a little less power consumption and heats less, but I'm a bit skeptical switching from Nvidia cards.

Also, refference design or custom design? What's the silent and coolest choice? In theory, the custom design should be better, but in a case with a good airflow, which SG05 i doubt that qualifies.
 
It's weird that your PSU got too hot and blew up.
I use the same case, the 300w PSU and an H50 (with one fan) I've tried both PSU positions and found out normal is better for PWM temps. Extracting hot air of the case is the most important thing to do. So the H50's fan is an intake of cool air, then the PSU takes hot air out. no problems for almost year and a half on the stock PSU + i5 760 and a GTS250.

Watercooling is not a novelty anymore, it's not like a cumbersome DIY setup, the H50 is great and my guess is the H60 would be even better inside this baby.
 
there, i removed the "novelty" from the sentence, that should make you happy :p
 
Tbh, H50, H60, H70, or any alike are an insult to watercooling.

But i think his psu blew up because he was using an air cooler.

There might be just 1 reason to use WC in SG05. If you mod the case to fit an ATX PSU, what cooler would fit?
 
Why are they an insult? they work, they are cheap enough and they don't require the huge vertical clearance tower coolers do. Also they are in many cases quieter than a tower heatsink (not always of course). Self enclosed water loops are way to go in most cases except for extreme Overclockers or people who have a lot of money. I have myself another WC and the water loop cools my CPU, VRM and my 2 8800GTXs but it's a big hassle, lots of maintenance.

A self enclosed loop needs no maintenance which is why even workstations are starting to appear with Asetek based WC loops.

Given the space the H60 is great, yes you could fit an ATX psu easily underneath it.
 
Nono...i meant. If i put an ATX PSU in the SG05, will the stock intel cooler still fit? or even better would a scythe shuriken rev. B or a prolimatech samuel fit?
 
Yes I think those would fit. I'm expecting my silverstone strider on monday, it's not supposed to go in the SG05 but i'll do some testing to see if it works with the H50 (whose pump is quite tall)

Will keep you posted
 
fr500 said:
Yes I think those would fit. I'm expecting my silverstone strider on monday, it's not supposed to go in the SG05 but i'll do some testing to see if it works with the H50 (whose pump is quite tall)

Will keep you posted
Click to expand...

Looking forward to this. :)
 
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