Microsoft Xbox 360 @ [H]

bruenor said:
Look, I know this is your article and you were probably very excited to be one of the few with an Xbox 360... but I have been in this industry and an editor for quite a number of years, so do not tell me what is correct or not and do not put words in my mouth. The Xbox 360 was rushed, you look silly even claiming it wasn't. Any system launch that had no details nailed down until the last minute, that includes only a handful of launch titles - of which none even basically optimized for the hardware, power/heat issues, a number of other problems en masse on day 1(as can be read from the link I provided above), and on and on. Please.
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Whos website, and review is this again ?
 
Draax said:
Whos website, and review is this again ?
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I have done my best to keep my comments directed to the article/author/editor as has been asked. I have given a brief description of my credentials in an effort to show my comments are made in good faith, show knowledge of the industry, and with as much constructive criticism as possible. I stand by the information you have quoted there. I did not asked to be attacked on my personal knowledge of the subject matter by the author, I was giving feedback as was asked. I also would love for someone to show how anyone could claim the 360 to not be rushed, I have personal contacts with a number of the development team who would beg to differ, and I'm just a wee bit sure they are credible.

I'm not here to argue, I wanted to give a fair appraisal of the review and offer a few areas of thought as to how to make the article better and future articles to a newer reviewer.
 
bruenor said:
I have done my best to keep my comments directed to the article/author/editor as has been asked. I have given a brief description of my credentials in an effort to show my comments are made in good faith, show knowledge of the industry, and with as much constructive criticism as possible. I stand by the information you have quoted there. I did not asked to be attacked on my personal knowledge of the subject matter by the author, I was giving feedback as was asked. I also would love for someone to show how anyone could claim the 360 to not be rushed, I have personal contacts with a number of the development team who would beg to differ, and I'm just a wee bit sure they are credible.

I'm not here to argue, I wanted to give a fair appraisal of the review and offer a few areas of thought as to how to make the article better and future articles to a newer reviewer.
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Perhaps you should get in touch with your contacts, discuss the alleged rushed product, investigate MS, buy a domain, develop a site, provide a brief bio on your industry knowledge, then write a review on the product. You cry foul on a supposed personal attack from Steve yet you state he looks silly by stating it was not a rushed product? Pot....meet Kettle. I know I'm off topic. My apologies. I can't wait to see more articles on the product.
 
TypeO said:
Perhaps you should get in touch with your contacts, discuss the alleged rushed product, investigate MS, buy a domain, develop a site, provide a brief bio on your industry knowledge, then write a review on the product. You cry foul on a supposed personal attack from Steve yet you state he looks silly by stating it was not a rushed product? Pot....meet Kettle. I know I'm off topic. My apologies. I can't wait to see more articles on the product.
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Whatever, hope you feel better now. I have created, developed, and sold a number of websites and have grown tired of the long hours and relatively meager pay. I still freelance for a few publications, but I have moved onto other work. I don't have to defend myself, anyone can see that the product was rushed whether you believe my credentials or not.

I know better than most how tough it is to hear negative feedback, I never put Steve down I just stated that he was a bit light in areas and gave some feedback for improvement. It is a thankless job for the most part, and as I said you won't be sippin' Crystal by your pool by what you earn from the work... so really you have to just enjoy it. And getting better at this craft takes time and a lot of effort, I just hoped to give an "insiders" take on the review and some pointers. Take 'em or leave 'em.
 
bruenor said:
I know better than most how tough it is to hear negative feedback, I never put Steve down I just stated that he was a bit light in areas and gave some feedback for improvement. It is a thankless job for the most part, and as I said you won't be sippin' Crystal by your pool by what you earn from the work... so really you have to just enjoy it. And getting better at this craft takes time and a lot of effort, I just hoped to give an "insiders" take on the review and some pointers. Take 'em or leave 'em.
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I hope a person can pull 180's like that in Project Gotham.

Perhaps you had valuable feedback to offer. A dash of diplomacy, though, would make your motives obvious, and explaining them later would be unneeded. My comment above simply points at the difference in tone between this comment, and your initial criticism. Nuff said.

Ummm... (On topic.. On topic... ) Good review!!

I was actually staring at a 360 in a Wal-Mart Yesterday. They were out a couple hours later. Maybe I shouldn't be saying this.

PD
 
I wasen't actually planning on getting a 360, but all the features and what not have convinced me to go out and buy one within the next month.

Thanks alot for the great review :) Pictures were very nice too.
 
Finally had to chance to sit down and actually read the review. As I come out of it I am not convinced of it's 'must have' status given at the end of this review. I still wonder abou tthe heat issues that plagued the first Xbox. Although there was mention, there was no real comparisons made. Also in my list of worries is the drive longevity. Think I'll wait for Kyle to chime in on that one. He seems to have the greatest luck with the Xbox.

Although this was another well written review, it wasnt what I expected from [H]. I have to agree this review felt rushed. It was like reading the PR releases from MS with a twist of Steves charm in the mix. Not that there is anything particularly wrong with that. Just not what I expected in a review from the [H]. I wanted to read this and 'feel' the need to save up and buy it or stay away from from it. Instead I am left with questions of why it should be 'must have' hardware. Maybe with the upcoming release of [H] console there will be a more in depth review that will adress these issues but this review wasn't it.
 
Kckazdude said:
Finally had to chance to sit down and actually read the review. As I come out of it I am not convinced of it's 'must have' status given at the end of this review. I still wonder abou tthe heat issues that plagued the first Xbox. Although there was mention, there was no real comparisons made. Also in my list of worries is the drive longevity. Think I'll wait for Kyle to chime in on that one. He seems to have the greatest luck with the Xbox.

Although this was another well written review, it wasnt what I expected from [H]. I have to agree this review felt rushed. It was like reading the PR releases from MS with a twist of Steves charm in the mix. Not that there is anything particularly wrong with that. Just not what I expected in a review from the [H]. I wanted to read this and 'feel' the need to save up and buy it or stay away from from it. Instead I am left with questions of why it should be 'must have' hardware. Maybe with the upcoming release of [H] console there will be a more in depth review that will adress these issues but this review wasn't it.
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I hate to agree with it, because I love my [H], but it did feel a bit like a PR piece from MS. I guess it was done in a hurry, but I felt like I was reading an advertisement. Nonetheless, there was still the usual array of good observation, as is the usual case for [H] reviews.
 
steviep said:
USB keyboards will work just fine on the X360, but only for text entry. Gamepads are the only things you'll be playing games with, from now until the end of its life.

.
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But why? How hard would it be to include the PnP functionality already in Windows? You could use joy sticks, wheels, and all kinds of nice controls. It would really expand the console's functionality.
 
I've been out of the console scene for a while and it was a good article to get me up to speed on the features of the XBOX 360 and how they are implemented. Great photos and screenshots of the menus. I'd say the review did well in overviewing the value and capabilities of the system. When compared to the costs of high-end PC components, particularly video cards, I can see why you were impressed with the system.

One suggestion I would like to make for future reviews: a little more detail on the quality of games and accessories available at launch. I realize the review was for the console itself, but the gameplay (not just graphics) of the titles available at launch will be important in the decision of whether to buy the console for many gamers.
 
Obi_Kwiet said:
But why? How hard would it be to include the PnP functionality already in Windows? You could use joy sticks, wheels, and all kinds of nice controls. It would really expand the console's functionality.
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Because they don't want to put a nail into their PC business. As I said, the PnP function is there for keyboards, but they will be sticking to gamepads and gamepads ONLY for games. All 1st, 2nd, and 3rd parties will be making their games for game-pad only, for a number of reasons like the above (including the fact that MS has to make money off their gamepads to even come close to breaking even on system sales). This includes things like wheels and joysticks - only X360-branded ones will work. If they wanted this to be a complete gaming PC and not a gaming console, they would've released it as such. They're dead-set on this, so I wouldn't expect it to change. The PS3 may support it for a few games (like the rumoured UT 2006) and the Revolution controller is practically a mouse, but for the X360 you're stuck with your gamepad. The saving grace, though, is that it does accept standard USB keyboards, so when modchips come out for this thing, homebrewers can make games that allow keyboard use. Just don't expect retail games to work with it. This is getting off-topic, though, and we should probably posting its responses into one of the threads that deals with "will x360 support keyboard and mouse" that do exist.... /back on topic.
 
That and we all know if you could use a Keyboad and mouse on the console, you could seriously whip every body using a plain controller in any FPS. They want to keep it an even playing field.
 
Xipher said:
That and we all know if you could use a Keyboad and mouse on the console, you could seriously whip every body using a plain controller in any FPS. They want to keep it an even playing field.
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No, the reason is, they don't want the console being called a cheap comptuer. PS2 has mouse keyboard support few a lot of games. I don't remember if the socoms had it or not.
 
Prim3 said:
No, the reason is, they don't want the console being called a cheap comptuer. PS2 has mouse keyboard support few a lot of games. I don't remember if the socoms had it or not.
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PS2 had an official Linux package, keyboard and mouse included. Its since been discontinued though.
No one is going to call it a cheap computer until they start including a word processor and a printer as an accessory
 
Xipher said:
PS2 had an official Linux package, keyboard and mouse included. Its since been discontinued though.
No one is going to call it a cheap computer until they start including a word processor and a printer as an accessory
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You need to look at the xbox again =/ Ya PS2 had that linux kit and I wish I could get ahold of it. The ps2 has always had keyboard/mouse support just most the games didnt need it or use it.
 
Prim3 said:
You need to look at the xbox again =/ Ya PS2 had that linux kit and I wish I could get ahold of it. The ps2 has always had keyboard/mouse support just most the games didnt need it or use it.
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Yea, the Xbox didn't have "official" support.
Like I said though, no one will refer to it as a cheap computer until you can do more then entertain yourself with it.
 
bruenor said:
It is apparent that you are new to this field, and that would be expected of a site such as this, that isn't a bad thing and it is not a bad reflection on yourself or your work... it is just as much an editor's job to reign you in and help you get the best product out the door as possible. I know as much as anyone what deadlines and being early on new products does to everyone involved, relax.. step back... and re-read your own article objectively and see if any of the comments given thus far are accurate. I think you will see that a number of comments are on topic, and are constructive. It is a learning process, and it is tough to hear folks pick apart something you no doubt put a lot of effort, time, and pride into..
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This part is a joke, right? You really think Steve is new? :confused:
 
I meant no disrespect by my "new" comment. I said he was obviously newer, I didn't mean he just fell off the turnip truck yesterday.

What I meant was, I have been professionally writing/editing for about 8 years, and reviewing professionally for over 4. You learn a lot in this gig with time, and also you learn to see right through hype and flash to the heart of matters. All I meant was I could see a number of mistakes and ommissions that would lead me to believe that Steve is not a seasoned vet. This was not a knock or slight in any way.

I don't want to continue this, as it is straying, I think my words have been heard and I think it is clear by now I meant no harm.
 
I good friend of mine was on line overnight to buy a 360 @ Best Buy. I'm not nearly that hardcore, I'll wait until after the holidays.

One thing he did say was that the fan inside is very loud, that it could be heard unless his TV or Surround system was turned up. Can any of the [H]'ers comment on the fan noise? Or is this something that will be commented on in the upcoming more in-depth review?

Thanks guys.
 
I was curious as to how bad the 360 looks on an older TV (if you have one around)?
Also, how does the 360 look using the VGA Cable? I know that reviews cannot cover everything, but I am hoping to have these questions answered, or info as to where they may be answered.

Thanks!
 
I thought it was a good article, and remember [H] previously did an article on the 360 GPU so there is a fair amount of info on the site if you look around. I would love to see some more details though, from what it sounds like there are future articles planned so maybe that will happen.

Just a few things I'm interested in:

Antialiasing; as I understand it this 10 meg edram chip can do "free" 4x MSAA, yet Microsoft is only requiring 2x AA. What gives? If the chip can do 4x for free why not just enable the max? Also some people are claiming kiosks don't have any AA and are jaggy, and even that some of these first run games don't have any AA. Is there any merit to those claims?

Resolution; I'm still not clear on this. I understand MS is requiring a minimum of 720p on all games but from what I'm reading 1080i will simply be rendered internally at 720p and scaled up to 1080i. Is this the case or will some games be rendered internally at 1080i? Certainly the 360 is powerful enough to utilize that many pixels.

Another thing I would love to see is some side by side comparisons of pc and 360 versions of a game. I understand this is like comparing apples and oranges and could be difficult to do fairly with the quality of some ports, hardware utilization of first run games, etc., but it's still something I would love to see. There are so many comments all over the board of "my pc has so much better graphics!!" and "XBOX 360 is more powerful than any pc!!!" Let's see an objective side by side comparison with some high quality screenshots and analysis. Too many sites are posting scaled down and higly compressed screengrabs with just a blanket "this game is beautiful" statement. You could even do a breakdown of what it would cost today to put together a pc capable of xbox 360 level graphics.

Backwards compatibility is another thing I became interested in after reading that the 360 will render xbox 1 games at 720p or 1080i and antialias them, very cool!!! Again I would love to see some high quality screengrabs of this. Some side by side shots of Halo on xbox 1 and xbox 360 would be awesome.

Again, [H]ard is primarily a pc hardware site, them doing a review of the 360 at all is pretty cool. But them doing a meaty analysis of it would be even cooler. If they choose not to thats ok (not like I'm paying for any of this). But there is certainly plenty of stuff there for them to talk about if they wanted to and apparently they plan on jumping full bore into the console fray at some point here in the future, why not get started now?
 
Happy Thursday all..just curious, is it only possible for one person to play through live or can more than one if each has his own account? Gotta go open a New Castle.

deltacoray
 
bruenor said:
I meant no disrespect by my "new" comment. I said he was obviously newer, I didn't mean he just fell off the turnip truck yesterday.

What I meant was, I have been professionally writing/editing for about 8 years, and reviewing professionally for over 4. You learn a lot in this gig with time, and also you learn to see right through hype and flash to the heart of matters. All I meant was I could see a number of mistakes and ommissions that would lead me to believe that Steve is not a seasoned vet. This was not a knock or slight in any way.

I don't want to continue this, as it is straying, I think my words have been heard and I think it is clear by now I meant no harm.
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I misunderstood I thought you meant he was new to writing reviews. I don't think Kyle and Steve get "kid in the candyshop" fever after all the cutting edge stuff they review here each month.

I was thinking you were the bruenor from over in the car forums that is 25 years old and worked at that bank that the car crashed into and you were asking for people to hire you away from that job. wrong person.

Who do you review stuff for? link?
 
Chad said:
I misunderstood I thought you meant he was new to writing reviews. I don't think Kyle and Steve get "kid in the candyshop" fever after all the cutting edge stuff they review here each month.

I was thinking you were the bruenor from over in the car forums that is 25 years old and worked at that bank that the car crashed into and you were asking for people to hire you away from that job. wrong person.

Who do you review stuff for? link?
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OT, but, yes that is me. I do manage/run a bank computer network and systems now (and yes it was our main data center that had a van through it :) ). It pays better and I was burnt out of the review game, but it is very stressful to have an entire financial institution on your shoulders. I used to write game/console reviews for Maxim, Stuff, and created/owned/operated two large review sites one was sold to Snowball.com networks (early IGN), and one was sold to be incorporated by UGO. Now, I still do some freelance work for friends I have in the industry and do some alpha/playtesting work on the side.

I'm not "old" but I'm very experienced in this work, I have been working professionally since I was 14 in the computer business. Not tooting my own horn, but I also was a National English Merit Award winner pretty early in life at 16. All I really was trying to do here was give some feedback, I hadn't realized until after I posted that others were also stating their displeasure and it kind of seemed like I was jumping on a bandwagon of negativity. I had just read the article, and clicked the link to the forums, and posted my .02 without reading any of the thread already in progress.
 
OK, serious question, is there a way to recharge the batteries for the wireless controllers other than the plug and charge? Will they recharge in a standard recharger?

deltacoray
 
Vinster said:
I good friend of mine was on line overnight to buy a 360 @ Best Buy. I'm not nearly that hardcore, I'll wait until after the holidays.

One thing he did say was that the fan inside is very loud, that it could be heard unless his TV or Surround system was turned up. Can any of the [H]'ers comment on the fan noise? Or is this something that will be commented on in the upcoming more in-depth review?

Thanks guys.
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The fan is pretty loud...I'd say the xbox is about the same loudness as an average computer...
 
Are there any side to side comparisons of the x360 and the PC? If I could see a comparison like that for Call of Duty that would rock. Also, is Quake 4 on x360 really as bad as everyone says?
 
It seems even Billy Boy Gates is having some concerns: http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/671/671609p1.html

They cover a few of his quotes briefly in that link. So those who don't want to believe this was rushed launch can finally give up, if you know something Bill Gates doesn't then you must be pretty special. They have no idea if even processor yields will hold up and Gates himself is heavily doubting the impact of the 360... a far cry from the hype filled quotes of 10 BILLION UNITS, now he is quite humbled and covering his ass big time.

This is why you can't review a product on day 1 or 2 and proclaim nothing but greatness, there are always downsides to anything. Hopefully now my earlier criticism can be seen for what it was, now that even Billy is a bit scared.
 
the people at [H] should mod the case.. Cut out the [H] in the side of the xbox, put the clear peice of plasic on it and put the red light in it, it would be asome.
 
bruenor said:
It seems even Billy Boy Gates is having some concerns: http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/671/671609p1.html

They cover a few of his quotes briefly in that link. So those who don't want to believe this was rushed launch can finally give up, if you know something Bill Gates doesn't then you must be pretty special. They have no idea if even processor yields will hold up and Gates himself is heavily doubting the impact of the 360... a far cry from the hype filled quotes of 10 BILLION UNITS, now he is quite humbled and covering his ass big time.

This is why you can't review a product on day 1 or 2 and proclaim nothing but greatness, there are always downsides to anything. Hopefully now my earlier criticism can be seen for what it was, now that even Billy is a bit scared.
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I don't see anything in there indicating things were rushed, that things aren't currently going as they planned, that they are having doubts about the 360's success or that there have been any major problems. I think you're reading too much into it. Xbox 360 is a big gamble, I'm not saying it's a bet the farm gamble, but they have a lot of invested in it. All I see in there is that BIll Gates is a little anxious. If you were one of the chief executives behind it wouldn't it seem pretty natural to be a little nervous? Even if everything was going just fine I would probably still have trouble sleeping with that much on the line.
 
bruenor said:
It seems even Billy Boy Gates is having some concerns: http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/671/671609p1.html
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Tap the brakes. In interest of being fair, go back to the original article put out by Bloomberg which puts the quote into context. It was originally published Nov. 22nd and the quotes were taken the day before and immediately during the launch event. Hate to say it bruenor, while I agree with most of what you say, you're totally off base here and hyping up the wrong tree.
 
OK, from the original Bloomberg article I will point out the facts:

" Microsoft used Boeing Co. 747 freight airplanes to rush the machines to the U.S. from factories in China." - Notice the word "rush" there, and using Boeing's to get your product to market just barely in time is about the definition of a rushed product.

``We're not going to name some magic number but we're out to give the best gaming experience.'' - Slightly different than the 10 Billion units they were claiming left and right leading up to release - now Gates says he won't quote a magic number, what happened to that 10 billion magic number?

``For the last six months, we've been on the edge of our seats,'' Gates said. ``I hope I don't get an e-mail saying `Gosh, processor yields are too low, or this plastic factory burned down in Malaysia, so we'll have boxes but no controllers.''' - This quote alone is the most telling of all. If you follow Bill Gates and MS, then you know this is NOT a statement you hear from Bill Gates... EVER. He is basically admitting that not only was it rushed, but that there are a number of areas of concern from manufacturing to production. When you want to sell 10 billion anything, you damn well have better confidence than this. How anyone can read this quote right from the horses mouth and deny it is beyond me.

The xbox 360 is a rushed product. I was told my initial statement on this matter was incorrect, I was simply supplying the information to show it was a correct statement.

I see a full recall in the weeks following Christmas if the defect numbers keep up, once the product is cleaned up and core issues are dealt with then the Xbox 360 will do fine... but the clock is ticking and by the time average folks will have a crack at a shipment the PS3 and Revolution hype will be in full swing and things may not be so rosy for the 360. That's all I'm saying on it, all of this is speculation on my part... but it is rooted in fact and experience, in a few short months we will see how it plays out.
 
How else would you expect 360's to get from China to the US? The proverbial "slow boat"?

Where are you getting this "10 billion" number from? 1 360 for every person in the world, and 2 for those that live in Brentwood California?

Anyway this thread is way off-topic and should be locked.
 
OK, serious question, is there a way to recharge the batteries for the wireless controllers other than the plug and charge? Will they recharge in a standard recharger?

I still cannot find any info on this, anyone got any info or a link.

deltacoray
 
steviep said:
USB keyboards will work just fine on the X360, but only for text entry. Gamepads are the only things you'll be playing games with, from now until the end of its life.

Bruenor, while I disagree with you on a couple points, I fully agree with your assesment of development costs and development time. I've been posting all kinds of articles in the past few weeks from DEVELOPERS warning those things, and Iwata/Miyamoto from Nintendo are the most vocal of the bunch. Specter, Wright, and many other big names are saying the same thing. It is going to seriously suck to be a gamer in the near future if something isn't done... unless you like all of EAs titles.
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Just thought i'd bring it up: you hafta use a keyboard with ff11 acording to square
 
bruenor said:
OK, from the original Bloomberg article I will point out the facts:

" Microsoft used Boeing Co. 747 freight airplanes to rush the machines to the U.S. from factories in China." - Notice the word "rush" there, and using Boeing's to get your product to market just barely in time is about the definition of a rushed product.

``We're not going to name some magic number but we're out to give the best gaming experience.'' - Slightly different than the 10 Billion units they were claiming left and right leading up to release - now Gates says he won't quote a magic number, what happened to that 10 billion magic number?

``For the last six months, we've been on the edge of our seats,'' Gates said. ``I hope I don't get an e-mail saying `Gosh, processor yields are too low, or this plastic factory burned down in Malaysia, so we'll have boxes but no controllers.''' - This quote alone is the most telling of all. If you follow Bill Gates and MS, then you know this is NOT a statement you hear from Bill Gates... EVER. He is basically admitting that not only was it rushed, but that there are a number of areas of concern from manufacturing to production. When you want to sell 10 billion anything, you damn well have better confidence than this. How anyone can read this quote right from the horses mouth and deny it is beyond me.

The xbox 360 is a rushed product. I was told my initial statement on this matter was incorrect, I was simply supplying the information to show it was a correct statement.

I see a full recall in the weeks following Christmas if the defect numbers keep up, once the product is cleaned up and core issues are dealt with then the Xbox 360 will do fine... but the clock is ticking and by the time average folks will have a crack at a shipment the PS3 and Revolution hype will be in full swing and things may not be so rosy for the 360. That's all I'm saying on it, all of this is speculation on my part... but it is rooted in fact and experience, in a few short months we will see how it plays out.
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Why do you keep saying 10 billion units? are you aware the population of the earth is only 6 billion people? I highly doubt Microsoft ever made a serious claim that they would ship that many units so either you're making up numbers or you dont know what you're talking about.
Oh yea, whats wrong with using a plane to ship your product? it's a lot quicker than ships, good way to save some time without sacrificing quality.
 
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