Microsoft Surface Pro The Template For New PCs?

SGTGimpy said:
Just to throw my two cents on the app issue.
Everyone I see is bitching about the lack of apps for Windows 8. Well that is only a problem for the Surface RT and it would be a problem if all the uneducated hates would stop spewing their bullshit drivel about how bad Windows 8 is.
Granted I am a certified genius and it only took me two days to completely adjust to Windows 8 UI. I cannot see that many people have an issues with Windows 8 UI, especially when my own dumb ass (meant in the kindest of ways) users figured it out in our office environment in less than a week. So many computer savvy users are having so many problems with it? Though the last person I called out on it that said he used it and said it suck. He had only installed the CP, played with it for 15min and uninstalled it. That does not count as using it. That’s the same as playing “Just the tip” with the prom queen and saying you banged her on prom night.
Without this BS, the platform could grow and bring the attention of the developers so there could be more apps, but until all the hates are or just stubborn lazy folk get over it. Then the apps will not come.

Surface Pro needs no apps. Every x86 app that lives now can be installed on it. So the app store is irrelevant for the Pro.
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You and I are not even in the same book....much less on the same page. I am NOT able to even understand your kind of thinking at all. You seem to think it's all about the "number of apps" and people's preconceived notions of what Win8 means in the minds of those that are seeing something different and deciding they don't like it.

I think your the one that completely misses the boat here. I guess you think that people would buy more smart tv's if there were more apps available for them???? Some people might not have the ability to think for themselves and follow that kind of idiocy. But, not everyone is that gullible. It's NOT about hate, being stubborn, or even being lazy. People like what they like and vise versa.

Put away your angry salesman pitch and take notice of the people your trying to sell to. I have had it with this routine from the AA's and this crap your selling isn't any different. I am NOT interested in buying yet another copy of the very same thing I already have just to "keep up with the jones's" in a competition to see who can have the fanciest, newest, latest gadget. That rat race is NOT worth my time or money.

Let me tell you something.....
I will still be here doing my thing my way with my computer somewhere on the web from my home long after salesmen like you have jumped out the window of some fifty story building because you have lost all your wallstreet stock in somebody's app warehouse.

I will still be here.....
 
svet-am said:
I agree to a point. The portable device _itself_ will be gimped but I see a not-so-distant day where our portables just dock into something that has a beefier CPU, more RAM, etc. and the portable (during the docked session) returns to being "just a screen."

With high bandwidth interfaces like DisplayPort, PCIe Gen3, etc., the technology exists -- we just need someone to do it.
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If your dock has it's own CPU, Ram, etc, isn't your dock now it's own computer?

Doesn;t sound much different that when I use a usb cable to plug my phone into my desktop.....
 
nutzo said:
If your dock has it's own CPU, Ram, etc, isn't your dock now it's own computer?

Doesn;t sound much different that when I use a usb cable to plug my phone into my desktop.....
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except you're not using your phone as your primary screen.
 
svet-am said:
except you're not using your phone as your primary screen.
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Why would I go to the expense of buying a dock and provisioning extra GPU, CPU, RAM and storage capacity just to run it on a 10-12" tablet screen?

Screens are cheap, in fact they're generally cheaper than decent docking stations/port replicators. If I've already paid for more powerful components for a desk-based setup, I'm better off just adding a permanent, larger, screen as well.
 
prndll said:
You and I are not even in the same book....much less on the same page. I am NOT able to even understand your kind of thinking at all. You seem to think it's all about the "number of apps" and people's preconceived notions of what Win8 means in the minds of those that are seeing something different and deciding they don't like it.

I think your the one that completely misses the boat here. I guess you think that people would buy more smart tv's if there were more apps available for them???? Some people might not have the ability to think for themselves and follow that kind of idiocy. But, not everyone is that gullible. It's NOT about hate, being stubborn, or even being lazy. People like what they like and vise versa.

Put away your angry salesman pitch and take notice of the people your trying to sell to. I have had it with this routine from the AA's and this crap your selling isn't any different. I am NOT interested in buying yet another copy of the very same thing I already have just to "keep up with the jones's" in a competition to see who can have the fanciest, newest, latest gadget. That rat race is NOT worth my time or money.

Let me tell you something.....
I will still be here doing my thing my way with my computer somewhere on the web from my home long after salesmen like you have jumped out the window of some fifty story building because you have lost all your wallstreet stock in somebody's app warehouse.

I will still be here.....
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I think you mis-read his post. SGTGimpy is complaining about the common Android/Windows criticism that they don't have enough apps to compete with the iStore. He's saying, rightfully, that on the Surface Pro the number of Metro apps is irrelevant, because it's just a regular x86 machine and you can run any program you want.

I don't think he's saying number of apps is important. I think, in fact, your post agrees with him because you're arguing about not having to buy an extra copy of something that you already own. Since the Pro is fundamentally another Windows PC, you wouldn't have to (DRM issues aside.)
 
RandemTox said:
Why would I go to the expense of buying a dock and provisioning extra GPU, CPU, RAM and storage capacity just to run it on a 10-12" tablet screen?

Screens are cheap, in fact they're generally cheaper than decent docking stations/port replicators. If I've already paid for more powerful components for a desk-based setup, I'm better off just adding a permanent, larger, screen as well.
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I don't understand why this is such a hard idea to grapple with.

Business people like the portability that notebooks provide. Some people, for their work, miss the extra power that having a PC provides. Up until now, you can meet both needs by having a separate portable device and a separate desktop device, or by having a semi-portable and semi-powerful notebook.

In the future *woooooo magical futureeeeeeeee* you could have a single device that fulfills all your portability needs, but when it's time to do serious work or gaming, also plugs into a standalone system and acts as a full powered machine. You would still use a desktop mouse, keyboard and monitor(s) when you need them, but would also have a tablet when you need it.

All he's talking about is taking 2/3 devices (tablet, laptop, desktop) and turning them into a single modular device, so that you don't need to sync file versions or transfer files and crap like that. It's like people here have never known you can plug a laptop into a monitor/keyboard and mouse before.
 
Here are two simple reasons why the Surface Pro makes a good case as the template for the new PC. One, Microsoft realized that the device's electronics should go behind the glass, not under the keyboard. Two, the device uses a real processor.
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So Microsoft discovered how to make a tablet, after everyone else was already building tablets??

If you actually want to run Windows software, a real x86 processor is sensible. This isn't exactly some amazing new idea.

As for putting the electronics behind the glass instead of in a keyboard, this isn't exactly new and is how all tablets are made. But it is also an inferior choice for a laptop, where you want the weight in the base for balance.
 
Jaerb4 said:
I don't understand why this is such a hard idea to grapple with.

Business people like the portability that notebooks provide. Some people, for their work, miss the extra power that having a PC provides. Up until now, you can meet both needs by having a separate portable device and a separate desktop device, or by having a semi-portable and semi-powerful notebook.

In the future *woooooo magical futureeeeeeeee* you could have a single device that fulfills all your portability needs, but when it's time to do serious work or gaming, also plugs into a standalone system and acts as a full powered machine. You would still use a desktop mouse, keyboard and monitor(s) when you need them, but would also have a tablet when you need it.

All he's talking about is taking 2/3 devices (tablet, laptop, desktop) and turning them into a single modular device, so that you don't need to sync file versions or transfer files and crap like that. It's like people here have never known you can plug a laptop into a monitor/keyboard and mouse before.
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You haven't eliminated any devices though, you've just made the "docking station" more complicated and expensive. You still have the big-powerful gear in one place, and one or two smaller/less powerful devices to deal with.

Syncing/transferring files is pretty much a non-problem for this scenario and hasn't been for a number of years. We don't need to wait for the future for that.
 
If performance for 3D applications improves, I can see it. Between the Razer Edge and the Surface Pro, I think we are seeing something really promising in mobile with docked computing.
 
Jaerb4 said:
He's saying, rightfully, that on the Surface Pro the number of Metro apps is irrelevant, because it's just a regular x86 machine and you can run any program you want.
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So by that definition, Metro apps are irrelevant to any x86 machine. That right?
 
Disagree, especially if you're working with large files. Sharing a single SSD would be nice.
 
odditory said:
So by that definition, Metro apps are irrelevant to any x86 machine. That right?
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I don't have a Win 8 device so I don't know for sure, but I'd imagine so.

The regular tablet-y things (aka consumption) are already covered and built into the OS. For productivity or more serious entertainment, why use a Metro app when you can use the computer side of things.
 
Jaerb4 said:
I think you mis-read his post. SGTGimpy is complaining about the common Android/Windows criticism that they don't have enough apps to compete with the iStore. He's saying, rightfully, that on the Surface Pro the number of Metro apps is irrelevant, because it's just a regular x86 machine and you can run any program you want.

I don't think he's saying number of apps is important. I think, in fact, your post agrees with him because you're arguing about not having to buy an extra copy of something that you already own. Since the Pro is fundamentally another Windows PC, you wouldn't have to (DRM issues aside.)
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I reread the post, a couple times....maybe your right. If that is the case then I am sorry. It's just that this aspect of the thing really touches a raw nerve with me (especially from a "certified genius"). I'm not THAT inflexible that I can't learn things like this. It's not hate, it's a disgust with the way things are going. I find it hard to define this as "advancement".
 
TThank You Jaerb4

prndll you obviously didn't read my post before that one and I am nowhere close to an angry sales man. So let me sum it up for you.

I can't say apps are not important since the simple user is the one driving that, but my statement was not about apps. It was about usability in the real world of these devices. Playing Angry Birds and Instagraming isn't real world work. This is the problem with Apple-isum that has been created about Surface RT/Pro not having apps and the less educated users spiting the fan boy-isum.

My point was I can do more work on the Surface RT with no apps than I ever could on the iPad3 with apps and doing so in a real world environment.

Also hitting on the fact Windows 8 is no way as bad. Not even close to how bad everyone is making out to be. Yes it has it fair share of issues and it is different. Every first run of an OS has issues and a normal person will get us to it in about week. Hell OSX past three editions have had some great ones, like losing users data after upgrading or Kernel panics on Mountain lion, but I don’t see the pitch forks out for them.

So the next time you decided to flame someone, make sure you are beating them down for the right reason.
 
Jaerb4 said:
Disagree, especially if you're working with large files. Sharing a single SSD would be nice.
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No one is "working" with large files meaningfully on a tablet device (buy a Surface Pro and you're not putting more than a handful of large files on it in the first place!). Watching videos is about the extent of what they can do with large files. I don't even remember the last time I plugged my tablet or laptop into anything other than a power cable.

The files I have that aren't candidates for syncing live, and need to be used in more than one location, live on a shared SSD already.

Regardless, if you see value in it great ... don't see it being a mass-market requirement though.
 
@SGTGimpy
I am sorry....I guess I misunderstood
it's a look-before-ya-leap
I'm just just so tired of all the fan-boy b.s.
 
Jaerb4 said:
Just how weak do you think mobile processors are these days?
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Well, I develop for them and I do embedded systems work around them among other things (including the hardware), so I've got a pretty good idea.

I'm not the one claiming a benefit to docking one machine into another for more power in a way that is somehow going involve work that is usefully doable on a tablet and yet meaningfully require desktop class hardware, though.

What scenarios did you have in mind?

For me "work" and "large files" will choke my quad core, SSD equipped, 16 GB RAM laptop, never mind a tablet. Consequently those files don't need to be synced and live on fast shared storage as they aren't relevant to tablet usage.

You want to fiddle around editing a video file on a tablet, that's cool. That only works because you have hardware encoder/decoder support though. Try it with a similarly sized file with similarly complex processes that don't have dedicated logic onboard and see how far you get.
 
prndll said:
@SGTGimpy
I am sorry....I guess I misunderstood
it's a look-before-ya-leap
I'm just just so tired of all the fan-boy b.s.
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Same here and no worries,

I have 47 iPads to support and ever since the President of the Company (an Apple whore) saw my Surface RT. They are now rethinking the use of them since the cost to make the iPads work with our new ERP software is going to be $100K plus and the Surface app can be developed in house for nothing. Plus she said it looked better than her iPad and we are all about image here.

It will just take time for people to see the true value of what Microsoft is trying to bring to the table. Until then we just need to keep fanboys drivel to a minimum
 
SGTGimpy said:
... are now rethinking the use of them since the cost to make the iPads work with our new ERP software is going to be $100K plus and the Surface app can be developed in house for nothing ...
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Your developers work for free? ;)

Okay, so yes, I'm being a smart-ass ... and I'm well aware of the budget and political differences concerning internal vs. external spend. But by way of experience when I've had the option to buy a software solution rather than build it in house then with very few exceptions it has worked out significantly cheaper to buy it - especially once long-term maintenance and upgrades come into play.

As I say, there are always exceptions, buying anything ECM or Oracle or SAP for example usually doesn't end well ...
 
SGTGimpy said:
I have 47 iPads to support and ever since the President of the Company (an Apple whore) saw my Surface RT. They are now rethinking the use of them since the cost to make the iPads work with our new ERP software is going to be $100K plus and the Surface app can be developed in house for nothing.
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Hope you're not running any Active Directory domains, since RT is persona non grata there.

SGTGimpy said:
It will just take time for people to see the true value of what Microsoft is trying to bring to the table. Until then we just need to keep fanboys drivel to a minimum
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Here, here.
 
Jaerb4 said:
He's saying, rightfully, that on the Surface Pro the number of Metro apps is irrelevant, because it's just a regular x86 machine and you can run any program you want.
Click to expand...
It isn't at all irrelevant. When used as a tablet, you certainly do not want to use traditional desktop applications. Beyond a very trivial number of applications, no desktop applications are optimized for touch.

When you're using a Windows 8 machine as a tablet, you want to stay in 'Metro' as much as is humanly possible. It's the only place you get a UI that makes sense for touch interaction. Thus, the number of available 'Metro' apps is highly relevant: the more apps there are, the more likely you won't have to pull out of Metro to accomplish something.
 
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wonderfield said:
It isn't at all irrelevant. When used as a tablet, you certainly do not want to use traditional desktop applications. Beyond a very trivial number of applications, no desktop applications are optimized for touch.

When you're using a Windows 8 machine as a tablet, you want to stay in 'Metro' as much as is humanly possible. It's the only place you get a UI that makes sense for touch interaction. Thus, the number of available 'Metro' apps is highly relevant: the more apps there are, the more likely you won't have to pull out of Metro to accomplish something.
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There's only so much use you can get out of a touch display, even with the AppStore's apps at your disposal. You can't edit Excel sheets. You can sort of type, but you're really going into a non-tablet mode to do that using a case stand of some sort.

The vast majority of apps in the AppStore are on the periphery and are meant as replacements for real Windows/OSX programs, which means they're not very useful. The basic features that an iPad/Transformer Prime or Surface RT/Pro excel at are the standard elements built into the operating systems. Almost all of the things you'll want to do with a tablet formfactor are built into Win8. It won't have so many of the periphery apps, but you'll be able to use it in standard computer mode with normal programs for those functions.

Basically, when you break down the vast majority of things people do with their tablets, they're already default in the OS and will thus be represented in Metro. All the other apps, however, were originally created as x86 program replacements, and in this case you just use the full version.
 
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