Err Xeon... wish I could edit.
I'm not sure how you say the Mac line has barely been updated in the last few months when its had a complete overhaul to the new processor architecture.
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Microsoft Says Avoid the Apple Tax
- Thread starter HardOCP News
- Start date
Err Xeon... wish I could edit.
I'm not sure how you say the Mac line has barely been updated in the last few months when its had a complete overhaul to the new processor architecture.
If that is actually a Display port, then that isn't an Apple designed port. It is the replacement for DVI created by the group that made up the VGA and DVI standards. It is HDMI w/ audio. Not sure why they couldn't just use HDMI but who knows. Many newer video cards and machines are comming with display ports. last two Dell laptops we ordered at work had the port, as did some of the motherboards w/ onboard video we ordered. Apple is making a miniDisplayPort which is their own version of the standard. That is where you will pay the tax, but not for the standard displayport.
I've seen mac support first hand whilst browsing their local store here and its pretty bad, let alone the fact that you have to actually make an appointment (On Fri though the weekends the support area is packed). Computer support is like a car warranty, it's nice having it but you should never have to use it.
I agree with your Office statement. Most PCs come with a trial or gimped version of Microsoft office.
I disagree with your warranty comments. A 3 year warranty upgrades from Dell and other hardware manufacturers are usually in-house and/or on-site. If there's a hardware problem, it my take them a couple of days to come out and repair/replace the problem. Furthermore, if you mention it, they will usually replace items that have "normal" wear and tear (i.e. keyboard, LCD hinges, bezels, etc.) for free. Ive heard so many horror stories about Apples refusal to cover items that they deem arent warranty related (broken hinges, bloating batteries, etc.)
As for resale value, this is much like a new vehicle. If youre buying a vehicle or computer at a higher price because traditionally it has a higher resale value, you seriously need to rethink your investment strategy. New vehicles and computers are rapidly depreciating items that should be purchased for use, not investment. Buy a vehicle or computer that fits your needs and has a good warranty (preferably one that covers the life expectancy). Replace the computer when it dies or become unfeasible to fix or upgrade. Take the money you saved and invest it into something that appreciates in value
You're right, they're comparing Apples
to Oranges. Apple markets their MacPro as a consumer-level, performance, machine. Why would any consumer need a Xeon system? I can see it for workstations, but your average family, gamer, etc.?So, you should compare the *new MacPro to another Workstation machine, like the HPm9600t. Big difference, because now we're paying nearly the same price, with much better, faster, more hardware.
*other then the processor, can you tell me exatcly what else has really changed with the new MacPro?
oROEchimaru
Supreme [H]ardness
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SOME OF YOU GUYS ARE MISSING THE POINT.
you can install any trial software.. you can't compare
free nonworking trial software
0$
to
250$ non-free software mac has to pay for
because in the end
the pc user has to pay the same price or maybe slightly cheaper for hte same software. they ignored this and its unprofessional.
you can install any trial software.. you can't compare
free nonworking trial software
0$
to
250$ non-free software mac has to pay for
because in the end
the pc user has to pay the same price or maybe slightly cheaper for hte same software. they ignored this and its unprofessional.
Are you being facetious...?
Faster graphics card by default. Faster memory standard. Larger hard drive standard. Possibly a couple other minor items.
No! No! No! It doesn't look like anyone read the actual whitepaper. The displayed cost of Office and Quicken for Mac is for the inevitable re-buy when they upgrade their OS:
No mention of trialware or of the original purchase cost of the software whatsoever. In fact, they are making the assumption that the original Office and Quicken costs are the same for Mac and PC.
azuldenial
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/applaud MS
Not only are you dishing it back to Apple, but at the same time you bait out the fanboi's and provide 5star entertainment, cheers...
Not only are you dishing it back to Apple, but at the same time you bait out the fanboi's and provide 5star entertainment, cheers...
Think about it. Of the two words in the product name, one says "Pro".
Which is why I suggested comparison with the m9600t; but, you could equally argue, there are HP (or Dell, or IBM or ..) workstations which would fit the comparison much better -- on price, performance, and ROI.
Still, Microsoft makes a compelling case. You could have compared the iMac to the d5200t, but that argument would be over instantly. Have you seen the options?
Faster than ..? Qualify, please.
If you're saying faster than it's predecessors hardware, sure. If you're saying it's faster (or cheaper) than it's equivalent in the PC market, not a chance -- for the price. Just look at the Video Card, or even the hard drives. or ...
Apple has an optional hardware-based RAID, as opposed to the (I assume)software-based RAID controller on the d5200t (again, see more workstation oriented-PC variants); But it's $700!! Most consumers wouldn't notice the difference between most software/hardware-level RAID controller -- it's large data centers and the like that do.
And the optional HDD list of the Apple ( 2 choices -- 640GB SATAII or 1TB SATAII -- in 4 bays) is far more inferior to the offerings of PC manuf. with 7-10+ drive offerings (SSD, 10k, SCSI), 4-10+ bays.
One confusion I have looking at all of this is why do people that use Apples and not PCs hang out on PC related forums/blogs/etc?
I don't use Apple computers and I don't hang out on Apple related forums/blogs/etc.
Do they do it as some form of masochism?
I don't use Apple computers and I don't hang out on Apple related forums/blogs/etc.
Do they do it as some form of masochism?
I think most, like me... use both about equally.
Maybe you should start.
I haven't used an apple product in a few years, and haven't owened a apple computer in well over a decade..
But, I don't see the problem -- and vice versa.
I read Apple-related News, and when I did work with or use their products, I did comment on their products.
DeathFromBelow
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I would assume Microsoft has had this in the pipe for months, Apple was doing very well awhile back. Marketing for Vista was a disaster, how one of the greatest consumer operating systems ever made has such poor public opinion and so much disinformation spread is mind boggling.
I don't think it makes them look scared at all, its no worse than Apple's ads, and at least Microsoft doesn't flat out lie about the competition's product.
Scared? More like they're tired of Apple's bullshit. Apple's done enough damage to Vista's image that I'm surprised Microsoft didn't do anything to stop it.
I can see Microsoft's management team getting together
Manager 1: "ok Apple's been deliberately lying about our products too long. We should drag them to court and get them to stop this destructive sabotage"
Manager 2: "why sue? Why not give them a taste of their own medicine. Let's go on TV and educate the public"
My point exactly...
Is that not exactly what you asked for?
Well, I'll be damned -- it is.
No, they only mislead by hiring actors to pose as real consumers
There would most certainly be a double-standard here if Apple were to employ the same technique.
soulesschild
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I'd like to comment about the Apple Warranty thing. It definitely is true that Apple Warranty SUCKS. SUCKS SUCKS SUCKS SUCKS SUCKS compared to a warranty from Dell or Lenovo.
I also remember reading some laughable crap that the iphone's accidental coverage doesn't cover you dropping it and cracking the screen. So what the hell does it cover then?
I also remember reading some laughable crap that the iphone's accidental coverage doesn't cover you dropping it and cracking the screen. So what the hell does it cover then?
null?
Not really.
It took Apple how long to offer 6mth-1year old tech?
Bold.No, they only mislead by hiring actors to pose as real consumers
They don't?
Anybody can be sn(ph)ide.
DeathFromBelow
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No, they only mislead by hiring actors to pose as real consumers
And? Its a commercial. OMG can you believe they used actors!!!!!!111
The claims made in the commercials were completely true, you can get a PC with what you want and more for less than an Apple product. I don't see anything misleading about it.
Apple's attacks on Vista in their commercials are complete BS, what do you think about that?
Apparently we don't speak the same language.
Again...
Are we staying on point here or is that all irrelevant?
I don't believe so, no. The most recent Apple ads have featured actors posing as...characters (sometimes animated), not actors posing as real consumers. With respect to the iPod touch/iPhone, they're, well, basically just arms.
I think most people who use Apple products use both, since there are just so many Microsoft touchpoints out there... unless you do 100% photo/graphic design, or just want to surf and do e-mail, then you don't care.
I really could care less about the back/forth advertising, in my mind that is just fun both ways. Jab/jab back, etc... good times.
I just think this particular comparison is so deeply flawed. I guess if you're a 100% MS guy then it's funny and validity isn't a thought. If you're a 100% Mac guy then it just makes your eyes pop.
Compare: Consumer hardware for MS to Workstation hardware for Apple
Assume: MS guys already have software laying around and never need any, but Apple guys need all kinds of software, and future upgrades
Assume: Apple guys need service to keep their phone/pc in sync AND they need the "family pack" to boot - assume PC guys don't need this
Assume: Apple guys need face-to-face training at the local store - assume MS guy doesn't
I dunno, the whole thing is just way too much of a stacked deck for my taste. I think the tax is real so the apples/oranges thing was not necessary. Also part of the problem is that Apple really doesn't have anything that hits the high-end enthusiast. I would never buy an iMac since I don't like the integrated thing... but I also don't really "need" a Mac Pro either. So until Apple makes something headless in that space I'll be building my own boxes for gaming and that'll generally be a windows box.
I really could care less about the back/forth advertising, in my mind that is just fun both ways. Jab/jab back, etc... good times.
I just think this particular comparison is so deeply flawed. I guess if you're a 100% MS guy then it's funny and validity isn't a thought. If you're a 100% Mac guy then it just makes your eyes pop.
Compare: Consumer hardware for MS to Workstation hardware for Apple
Assume: MS guys already have software laying around and never need any, but Apple guys need all kinds of software, and future upgrades
Assume: Apple guys need service to keep their phone/pc in sync AND they need the "family pack" to boot - assume PC guys don't need this
Assume: Apple guys need face-to-face training at the local store - assume MS guy doesn't
I dunno, the whole thing is just way too much of a stacked deck for my taste. I think the tax is real so the apples/oranges thing was not necessary. Also part of the problem is that Apple really doesn't have anything that hits the high-end enthusiast. I would never buy an iMac since I don't like the integrated thing... but I also don't really "need" a Mac Pro either. So until Apple makes something headless in that space I'll be building my own boxes for gaming and that'll generally be a windows box.
I disagree many of the points brought up in the Vista ads are quite valid, and the reason many people still don't use Vista.
Such as?
oROEchimaru
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going to piss off more people
1st. i love windows and only use windows...
2nd: these adds, even seinfeld cannot save vista... which although has a fan base, also has a fanbase of people who despise it. and most 30-60 year olds who barrily learned winxp in the last 3 years, are hating to have to relearn vista
3rd. who is the asshole that made catagory and classic view? this makese troubleshooting over the phone a hassle
4th... win7 = better vista. it is not going to solve compatbility issues. i've gone over this argument with [h] members who before say: "well companies need to update their software then"
truth is most government programs that make the world go round... are not vista or win7 compatible unless ran inside citrix or vmware on a winxp desktop! so its going to have the same problems addopting to the industry
it wont have good drivers for printing in a virutal environment just like vista
and tons of security prompts that cause disruption to citrix and virtual environments
lastly the government is slowly updating major database medical and other government programs from 1980's black/white screens... to newer, yet archaic apps... which most likely are not win7 compatible...
so in the end.... whats the fucking point if they are making things prettier/faster but even less comptabile... its just going to hurt them again.
unless of course vista becomes winme, and win7 becomes the next xp.
1st. i love windows and only use windows...
2nd: these adds, even seinfeld cannot save vista... which although has a fan base, also has a fanbase of people who despise it. and most 30-60 year olds who barrily learned winxp in the last 3 years, are hating to have to relearn vista
3rd. who is the asshole that made catagory and classic view? this makese troubleshooting over the phone a hassle
4th... win7 = better vista. it is not going to solve compatbility issues. i've gone over this argument with [h] members who before say: "well companies need to update their software then"
truth is most government programs that make the world go round... are not vista or win7 compatible unless ran inside citrix or vmware on a winxp desktop! so its going to have the same problems addopting to the industry
it wont have good drivers for printing in a virutal environment just like vista
and tons of security prompts that cause disruption to citrix and virtual environments
lastly the government is slowly updating major database medical and other government programs from 1980's black/white screens... to newer, yet archaic apps... which most likely are not win7 compatible...
so in the end.... whats the fucking point if they are making things prettier/faster but even less comptabile... its just going to hurt them again.
unless of course vista becomes winme, and win7 becomes the next xp.
oROEchimaru
Supreme [H]ardness
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i guess my point is...
they tried to make vista more like a mac...
however most xp users (not advance users, i'm talking mom, dad, coworkers)... are not comfortable with vista... and not comfortable with all the hassles
what they should of done is made a built-in xp looking shell that functions like xp, with less prompts and works more like xp...
instead they went pretty, shiny and annoying.
win7 is prettier and shinier... but most techs i know have already given up on it due to problems (yea its beta...)... most hardcore [h] members who went biggest/newest/best/nerdiest love it...
i am yet to judge. again... compatbility = whats going to take on...
they tried to make vista more like a mac...
however most xp users (not advance users, i'm talking mom, dad, coworkers)... are not comfortable with vista... and not comfortable with all the hassles
what they should of done is made a built-in xp looking shell that functions like xp, with less prompts and works more like xp...
instead they went pretty, shiny and annoying.
win7 is prettier and shinier... but most techs i know have already given up on it due to problems (yea its beta...)... most hardcore [h] members who went biggest/newest/best/nerdiest love it...
i am yet to judge. again... compatbility = whats going to take on...
soulesschild
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Vista is FINE. It was crap before SP1 I'll give you that but now it's fine.
You're right, they're comparing Apples
I would never agree that Apple markets the Mac Pro as a consumer level machine. In fact I haven't seen a whole lot of marketing at all for this line. They market the hell out of the mini and the iMac in the consumer space but I really don't feel they have a whole lot of interest in the swath of customer base that would hang out at [H].
To me the bread and butter is the high-end 8-core Mac Pro which is going to get snatched up mostly by people doing heavy rendering or video work... basically something processor intensive. I view the 4 core Mac Pro as kind of a gimped workstation without a real market. I know it's still quite capable but I'd have a hard time pulling the trigger on a 4 core Pro and I can't justify an 8 core price
.And you won't see i7 architecture in anything else Apple sells until Intel offers something with better thermal characteristics. They're too bent on the form factor to use the current processors in consumer machines.
oROEchimaru
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another issue... is microsoft cant even be an industry standard anymore...
32bit and 64bit... divdied the it community
then vista comes along... 32bit and 64bit
-64bit still has issues for many of us. not all, but MANY. yes some of you dont have issues, that doesnt mean we dont. when you spend 1500 on a machine, it shouldnt crash due to 64bit o/s thats half assed supported... 1 ass cheak more than winxp
then win7... farking 32 and 64bit again...
how can we ever push developers to develop 64bit drivers and software if we give the easier option as an alternative? just leads to more delay in the transition.
so we have 32bit apps being developed in 2015 since people still want xp. then we'll have 64bit apps being developed with bugs since they are creating 2x the code...
err
32bit and 64bit... divdied the it community
then vista comes along... 32bit and 64bit
-64bit still has issues for many of us. not all, but MANY. yes some of you dont have issues, that doesnt mean we dont. when you spend 1500 on a machine, it shouldnt crash due to 64bit o/s thats half assed supported... 1 ass cheak more than winxp
then win7... farking 32 and 64bit again...
how can we ever push developers to develop 64bit drivers and software if we give the easier option as an alternative? just leads to more delay in the transition.
so we have 32bit apps being developed in 2015 since people still want xp. then we'll have 64bit apps being developed with bugs since they are creating 2x the code...
err
Nope, the Mac Pro Harpertown systems were $500-$1000 cheaper than a Dell or HP workstation with the same specs. Now that we're on Nehalem CPUs, the breakdown is as follows, bringing all specs on the Dell to baseline Mac Pro specs.
- Dell Precision T3500
Dell Precision T3500, CMT, Standard Power Supply
Genuine Windows Vista® Business 64
Quad Core Intel® Xeon® X5550 2.66GHz, 8M L3, 6.4GT/s Turbo
Mini-Tower Chassis Configuration
3GB, 1066MHz,DDR3 SDRAM, ECC (3 DIMMS)
3 Year Basic Limited Warranty and 3 Year NBD On-Site Service
256MB NVIDIA® Quadro® NVS 295, DUAL MON, 2 DP
1 DisplayPort to DVI (Single Link) Adapter
1TB SATA 3.0Gb/s with NCQ and 8MB DataBurst Cache
16X DVD-ROM with Cyberlink Power DVD
$3255
Mac Pro Quad Core
One 2.66GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
3GB (3x1GB)
1TB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
NVIDIA GeForce GT 120 512MB
One 18x SuperDrive
AppleCare Protection Plan for Mac Pro (w/or w/o Display) - Auto-enroll
$2848
Even an upgrade in RAM with both cases doesn't close up the price gap that Dell has with their i7 Xeons, both through Newegg or direct from the manufacturers.
Just for fun, here are some eight core Nehalem configurations:
- Dell Precision T5500
Dual Quad Core Intel Xeon® Processors X5550 2.66GHz,8M L3,6.4GT/s,turbo
Mini-Tower Chassis Configuration
4GB, DDR3 Memory,1333MHz, ECC (4 DIMMS)
3 Year Basic Limited Warranty and 3 Year NBD On-Site Service
256MB NVIDIA® Quadro® NVS 295, DUAL MON, 2 DP
1 DisplayPort to DVI (Single Link) Adapter
1TB SATA 3.0Gb/s,7200 RPM Hard Drive with 16MB DataBurst Cache
16X DVD-ROM with Cyberlink Power DVD
$5936
- Mac Pro Octo Core
Two 2.26GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
6GB (6x1GB)
1TB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s
NVIDIA GeForce GT 120 512MB
One 18x SuperDrive
AppleCare Protection Plan for Mac Pro (w/or w/o Display) - Auto-enroll
$3648
Again, Mac Pros were cheaper than Dell Precisions before the leap to Nehalem processors (and WAY cheaper than comparable HPs), and it continues to be the case today. They are the most affordable Xeon workstations out there, and when you combine it with much cheaper licenses for applications like Shake and ridiculously loaded applications suites like Final Cut Studio 2, the value continues. Hell, even if you are a true fanboy and have an irrational hatred of anything that is UNIX and isn't out of Redmond, you could still save money with these, throw Windows on them, and only use that (you can even skip the VM if you want, haha
).The main things I can knock Apple for is sacrificing performance for smaller size with the Mac Mini (terrible value unless you want an HTPC), having a crap $1000 notebook, and not having a headless Core 2 Duo machine with PCI-E expansion. The iMac is a great value in terms of performance and components (especially the H-IPS panel, otherwise found in $1100 NEC displays) when compared with Dell and HP's all-in-ones. However, if you don't want an AIO then you are SOL, and that sucks.
I would never agree that Apple markets the Mac Pro as a consumer level machine. In fact I haven't seen a whole lot of marketing at all for this line. They market the hell out of the mini and the iMac in the consumer space but I really don't feel they have a whole lot of interest in the swath of customer base that would hang out at [H].
To me the bread and butter is the high-end 8-core Mac Pro which is going to get snatched up mostly by people doing heavy rendering or video work... basically something processor intensive. I view the 4 core Mac Pro as kind of a gimped workstation without a real market. I know it's still quite capable but I'd have a hard time pulling the trigger on a 4 core Pro and I can't justify an 8 core price
And you won't see i7 architecture in anything else Apple sells until Intel offers something with better thermal characteristics. They're too bent on the form factor to use the current processors in consumer machines.
Hell, you don't even need a Mac Pro for video editing anymore unless you are dealing exclusively in HD. iMacs and Macbook Pros eat those apps alive. Photographers, 3D artists, and compositors are the main creative areas that will benefit from having multiple Xeons these days.
And you're spot on regarding i7 CPUs in their notebooks and iMacs, heat is the same reason you never saw an IBM G5 notebook (and will never see one from AMD
).Don't forget much much better window management. I'm loving the new GUI features in Win7. Fewer drilldowns and more consistent, logical submenus nearly everywhere else is also great. If they can just streamline and apply some common sense to the stupid control panel (just as retarded as the one in Vista) then I'll have very little to complain about.
Apple does the same thing as the UAC. Try to run software updates and it wants the admin password, try to install a program it wants the admin password. At least under Vista if you are logged in as the admin it just warns you and lets you click allow, you don't have to retype your password. Same with linux, try to do something that needs root access and it will prompt you for the password. Some distros let you save the password for X amount of time so it won't have to keep asking you, but not all do. Some make you type it in every time.
So don't try to act like the UAC is something new that Microsoft made up.
The thing is that the reminders from OS X or sudo in Linux (same thing) are way less frequent, while it happens much more often in Vista. The features and intent are the same but there is a massive difference in terms of frequency. I'm very happy with how they've gone about adjusting this in Windows 7, far less intrusive.
Or are you saying that Microsoft hasn't improved their product with Win7? I sure think so, and I generally like Vista.