Microsoft Confirms DirectX 11.2 is a Windows 8.1, Xbox One Exclusive

WorldExclusive said:
I think it makes DX11 games easier to develop for or to be compatible across platforms.

I also could be totally wrong. But it's something along those lines.
Click to expand...

seems so, developers asked for the tile function likely for consols.
 
As you get older you realise its just easier to go with the flow. You have bigger battles to fight than which OS version you have.

It really doesn't matter in the big scheme of things.

Me? I'll be switching my Windows 8 Pro gaming box to 8.1 a few weeks after the full release when I get the time.

I really can't waste my time fretting about such trivial stuff.
 
daglesj said:
As you get older you realise its just easier to go with the flow. You have bigger battles to fight than which OS version you have.

It really doesn't matter in the big scheme of things.

Me? I'll be switching my Windows 8 Pro gaming box to 8.1 a few weeks after the full release when I get the time.

I really can't waste my time fretting about such trivial stuff.
Click to expand...

same here, cannot wait to build one!
 
mr_zen256 said:
It is amazing how much hardware selling power one or two AAA software titles can have.

As soon as a huge name franchise is DX11.2 exclusive, you can be damned sure a good percentage of people will update to Win 8.1 and the latest DX11.2 compatible video card.
Click to expand...

That's just it. Any AAA title will use nearly the lowest common denominator to get the most sales. That is DX 9 or 10. The title MAY support 11.2, and with 11.2 they might have nicer bushes or something else equally as silly, but that is it.
 
Red Falcon said:
Well, one has to know how to load up the proper DLL files in order to get DX10 and 11 support.
Click to expand...
DLL files from where, exactly? Are you suggesting that we need DirectX-related DLL files ripped from an actual Windows install to make this work?

If that's the case, doesn't requiring files ripped from the piece of software you're trying to get away kinda defeat the point a bit? Means you still need to pay for a copy of Windows.

Red Falcon said:
PlayOnLinux isn't "based on WINE", it is simply a GUI which handles multiple custom WINE instances.
Click to expand...
So... it's based on Wine. :p

Red Falcon said:
Yes, it is possible to run games with full DX10/11 support (Bioshock is a great example of DX9 vs DX10 textures), and there is an obvious difference.
Click to expand...
Bioshock is actually a fairly poor example. It's a first-generation DirectX 10 game built on a pre-release version of Unreal Engine 3 with very few DirectX10 features actually implemented.

As I said, Wine has incomplete DX10 support, but it might be enough to get Bioshock's one or two DX10 additions to display correctly.

SilverSliver said:
That's just it. Any AAA title will use nearly the lowest common denominator to get the most sales. That is DX 9 or 10. The title MAY support 11.2, and with 11.2 they might have nicer bushes or something else equally as silly, but that is it.
Click to expand...
You're kinda missing one of the major selling points of DirectX 10 and onwards, feature level support.

You can always target the latest version of DirectX (in this case, DX11.2) because the API supports automatically reducing the available features for the hardware present in the machine. You target DX11.2 and you've also automatically handled 11.1, 11.0, 10.1, 10.0, 9.3, 9.2, and 9.1 hardware support.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ff476876(v=vs.85).aspx
 
You get that hardware support, yes. You can't create, say, an IDXGIDevice3 in Windows Vista, 7 or 8, however, which means you can't write a strict 11.2 renderer and then simply scale down with feature levels to support non-8.1 OSes.

Hardware support is one aspect to targeting, but it isn't the only aspect.
 
I suspect that DX 11.2 support adoption rate will be much faster then 10 or 11 was, due to the new console support. These console ports will make 11.2 support a no brainer for developers. (easy to do)

For that reason I will run 8.1 and a 7970 or so.
 
daglesj said:
As you get older you realise its just easier to go with the flow. You have bigger battles to fight than which OS version you have.

It really doesn't matter in the big scheme of things.

Me? I'll be switching my Windows 8 Pro gaming box to 8.1 a few weeks after the full release when I get the time.

I really can't waste my time fretting about such trivial stuff.
Click to expand...
Interesting, age has had the opposite effect on me. I have become more cognizant of things like privacy and the value of my time and as such take far bigger issue with corporations trying to dictate to me how to use my technology.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
Interesting, age has had the opposite effect on me. I have become more cognizant of things like privacy and the value of my time and as such take far bigger issue with corporations trying to dictate to me how to use my technology.
Click to expand...

You mean like the tablet computer you whipped up one weekend in your garage? And now Microsoft is trying to tell you how to use it? THE NERVE.... :eek:
 
wonderfield said:
You get that hardware support, yes. You can't create, say, an IDXGIDevice3 in Windows Vista, 7 or 8, however, which means you can't write a strict 11.2 renderer and then simply scale down with feature levels to support non-8.1 OSes.

Hardware support is one aspect to targeting, but it isn't the only aspect.
Click to expand...
Hay, there's always the option of targeting DirectX 11.0 if you really need full backwards compatibility. That'll work on Windows Vista, 7, 8, and 8.1
 
royce321 said:
only question is which distro :)
Click to expand...
Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xbuntu, and Horton heard a Whoobuntu, etc.
Want a desktop that out "shinny buttons" Windows 7 there is KDE or Gnome.
Want minimal bling but you want fast and lean there is Xfce and several others.
OR HECK, you can just run the command line Linux if you want. The choice is yours. ;)
 
Monkey God said:
People who develop games for PC will just include DirectX 9. No big deal. Just Microsoft being their usual asshole selves and the rest of the world just doing what they want.
Click to expand...

But I thought the new Battlefield PC games didn't work on Direct X 9, and now your saying they do? I am super confused now. Can the Battlefield PC games work on Direct X 9 or not?
 
PornoSatan said:
Actually, running video related Metro apps (like Netflix) is a big IF too on older hardware due to HDCP issues with legacy video drivers. If you have a 4870 for example, you can't watch Netflix unless it's using the default Win 8 driver which correctly negotiates the DRM. On the other hand, since a 4870 is 'retired' by ATI, the most up to date legacy driver fails the HDCP negotation.

So if you just happent to use an older video card on Windows 8, basically you can watch Metro video using the default Win 8 driver, but if you want to upgrade to the latest legacy, the HDCP fails and your Metro video apps break. Whether or not it's MS's fault or ATI's fault I don't know, so I'll blame them both.
Click to expand...

heatlesssun said:
I think you missed the part where I said "new hardware." Of course when upgrading with older, unsupported hardware YMWV.
Click to expand...

HDCP is not a necessary feature for playing video but an artificially imposed restriction (and an easily broken one at that). As such, any breakage that it causes is entirely the fault of those who chose to implement it.

WorldExclusive said:
I think it makes DX11 games easier to develop for or to be compatible across platforms.

I also could be totally wrong. But it's something along those lines.
Click to expand...

Someone who wants to develop "across" platforms does not use DirectX. They use OpenGL because THAT is the standard.

NKDietrich said:
The problem is that Linux gaming has had a lot of "It's a starts". It never moves beyond a start because it's a massive catch-22. Mainstream game developers barely want to put effort into a WINDOWS port, let alone a Linux port. Android doesn't mean much in this context because it's running on different hardware in its own software ecosystem.

Lots of indie games and older titles have been playable on Linux for over a decade and it hasn't helped adoption as a gaming OS.

If you can't play every Steam game that is released on Linux flawlessly on day 1, people will stay with Windows. No one wants to inconvenience themselves just to spite Microsoft. It's like those gaming boycotts where everyone rages and rages but then the game comes out and they play it anyway because at the end of the day they aren't willing to trade their short-term fun for a long-term benefit.
Click to expand...

You can't play every Steam game that is released flawlessly on Day 1 on Windows. You set standards for GNU/Linux that even Windows cannot meet.

NKDietrich said:
iIf you switch to Linux for gaming, you're gonna have a bad time. Drivers suck, game support sucks, peripheral support sucks.
Click to expand...

Works fine for me. Perhaps the problem is with a lack of competence on the part of the user. Just because you are an expert in Windows doesn't mean you are an expert in GNU/Linux and I think that is a large part of the problem here; far too many people here think they know more about computers than they do and they get humbled by GNU/Linux because they are brought back down to the level of a regular user and have to relearn their advanced knowledge.
 
damicatz said:
You can't play every Steam game that is released flawlessly on Day 1 on Windows. You set standards for GNU/Linux that even Windows cannot meet.
Click to expand...

Sure there can be issues but with single GPU, single monitor gaming I've rarely seen issues with games at launch.


damicatz said:
Works fine for me. Perhaps the problem is with a lack of competence on the part of the user. Just because you are an expert in Windows doesn't mean you are an expert in GNU/Linux and I think that is a large part of the problem here; far too many people here think they know more about computers than they do and they get humbled by GNU/Linux because they are brought back down to the level of a regular user and have to relearn their advanced knowledge.
Click to expand...

I find statements like this odd in the context of Windows 8 discussions. We tons of people bemoaning the new Windows UI because of having to learn a few new UI conventions.
 
Unknown-One said:
DLL files from where, exactly? Are you suggesting that we need DirectX-related DLL files ripped from an actual Windows install to make this work?
Click to expand...

They can be downloaded using PlayOnLinux.
Seriously, if I were you, I would look up a few more things on it before passing serious judgement.

If the last time you used it was a few years ago, then I would agree with you, but it has changed quite a bit.
Also, you don't need a working copy of Windows for the DLL files to download or work.

Just download PlayOnLinux and give it a try, if you need help, just PM me. :)
 
wonderfield said:
How do these cross-platform developers target the Xbox with OpenGL?
Click to expand...

I was wondering the exact same thing. I assume Dice has to make BF4 using DirectX for the Xbox One and OpenGL for the PS4 right? If that is the case how do we know if everything will be supported equally and the experience will be the same with both systems if one is Direct X and one OpenGL?
 
Red Falcon said:
They can be downloaded using PlayOnLinux.
Seriously, if I were you, I would look up a few more things on it before passing serious judgement.
Click to expand...
Yup, looked it up, it's exactly as I described. It's installing the Microsoft DirectX redistributable under Wine.

This requires you accept Microsoft's license terms.

Red Falcon said:
Also, you don't need a working copy of Windows for the DLL files to download or work.
Click to expand...
You don't need a working copy, but you do need to own a copy if you want to use those resources legally...

Red Falcon said:
Just download PlayOnLinux and give it a try, if you need help, just PM me. :)
Click to expand...
Already know how it works. If using it requires owning a copy of Windows in order for it to be even halfway decent, then I don't see much of an actual point to it.

A solution that requires you own the product you're trying to get away from isn't much of a solution :p
 
Trimlock said:
Those gpus dont only support dx, its not terrible to write an engine for dx then include paths for opengl, id software did this a lot.
Click to expand...

Yes- but there were always performance differences. I also assume no features of each API perfectly mirror each other either.
 
Windows 7 could probably support "DX11.2" if it weren't for MS tying Windows Store App (Metro) APIs (Win 8.x exclusive) to DXGI 1.2. :D
 
Diseaseboy said:
I was wondering the exact same thing. I assume Dice has to make BF4 using DirectX for the Xbox One and OpenGL for the PS4 right?
Click to expand...
They're probably using the PS4's lighter-weight LibGCM API, but yes. Their renderer is probably designed to be largely API-agnostic, and they've probably built some good tooling for conditioning (shader transcompilers, for instance), but they eventually need to call into those APIs on their respective platforms.

Diseaseboy said:
If that is the case how do we know if everything will be supported equally and the experience will be the same with both systems if one is Direct X and one OpenGL?
Click to expand...
You can assume with DICE that the experience will be the same, for all intents and purposes.
 
Unknown-One said:
A solution that requires you own the product you're trying to get away from isn't much of a solution :p
Click to expand...

It is the year of Linux desktop gaming, or not: http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey?platform=combined

Steam%20June%202013%20Survey.jpg
 
Diseaseboy said:
Yes- but there were always performance differences. I also assume no features of each API perfectly mirror each other either.
Click to expand...

Depends largely on how its used but you arent completely wrong to assume there will be differences, just not drastic enough to make developers to stop. All great engines do this, maybe not crytek.
 
heatlesssun said:
I find statements like this odd in the context of Windows 8 discussions. We tons of people bemoaning the new Windows UI because of having to learn a few new UI conventions.
Click to expand...

Learning it isn't the problem. It is that the new "UI Conventions" require more effort to do things, are not faster or more intuitive and are antithetical to the notion of intelligent computing by catering to the lowest common denominator.

wonderfield said:
How do these cross-platform developers target the Xbox with OpenGL?
Click to expand...

Is the XBox not a Microsoft platform? Again, OpenGL is the standard. The fact that Microsoft has chosen to disregard standards for their piece of shit consoles does not change that fact. And I wouldn't worry for much longer because the XBox One is going to be such a miserable failure compared to the Playstation 4 that it won't be relevant.

Unknown-One said:
Yup, looked it up, it's exactly as I described. It's installing the Microsoft DirectX redistributable under Wine.

This requires you accept Microsoft's license terms.
Click to expand...

Which have about as much worth as a piece of toilet paper.

You don't need a working copy, but you do need to own a copy if you want to use those resources legally...
Click to expand...

So? Is the Microsoft gestapo going to break down your door?

Already know how it works. If using it requires owning a copy of Windows in order for it to be even halfway decent, then I don't see much of an actual point to it.

A solution that requires you own the product you're trying to get away from isn't much of a solution :p
Click to expand...

So? Download it anyways.
 
damicatz said:
Is the XBox not a Microsoft platform? Again, OpenGL is the standard.
Click to expand...
That's a dodge. Whether or not OpenGL is a "standard" is irrelevant to the question.

damicatz said:
Oh and for those who say WINE doesn't support Direct3D 10 :
http://source.winehq.org/git/wine.git/tree/refs/heads/master:/dlls/d3d10
http://source.winehq.org/git/wine.git/tree/refs/heads/master:/dlls/d3d10core
Click to expand...
Looking at the code, it seems as though only some parts of the API are supported. Some functions simply return not-implemented flags or predefined values where they should return a result based upon device queries.

I don't doubt that some games work, but what percentage of them do?
 
And how much of your precious time does it cost to get things to work? My gaming time is very valuable, and if I spend most of it getting a game to work then that is pretty self defeating. Even if you do love using linux why wouldn't you just boot into windows and run games natively?

Its been many years since I have ran dt linux and wine sucked horribly then. I also can't image how horribly bad driver support must still be, hell we still wait weeks for updates in windows from vendors.
 
Unknown-One said:
A solution that requires you own the product you're trying to get away from isn't much of a solution :p
Click to expand...

I never said it was a solution, but it's definitely an option for those looking to get away from Windows, if even only partially.
No, not all games will work under WINE; a good example would be BL2, mainly due to requiring the .Net Framework 3.5 and above.

So far, the highest .Net Framework I've been able to get working successfully under WINE 1.5 is 2.0.
Use what works, no one wants anyone to have downtime from gaming (except for EA). :)


It is the year of Linux desktop gaming, or not: http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurv...tform=combined
Click to expand...
Yeah, Linux on the desktop will always be tiny niche market.
Unless Windows vanishes, Linux is going to be small potatoes in that market.

It still makes a great server or custom OS though. :D
 
damicatz said:
Learning it isn't the problem. It is that the new "UI Conventions" require more effort to do things, are not faster or more intuitive and are antithetical to the notion of intelligent computing by catering to the lowest common denominator.
Click to expand...

But desktop applications employ the same UI conventions as always, the only difference is in how they might be launched if not from the task bar.
 
evilsofa said:
The most interesting paragraph from the article:

"Designed to allow a game to use both system RAM and graphics RAM to store textures, Leblond claimed that tiled resources will enable DirectX 11.2 games to vastly improve the resolution of textures displayed in-game. By way of proof, Leblond showed off a demonstration that used a claimed 9GB of texture data - the majority of which was held in system RAM, rather than graphics RAM."

This will be of great interest to the video card forum, where some have been concerned about whether current video cards will suddenly become unusably obsolete if XBox One and PS4 games that use huge amounts of VRAM are released for the PC.
Click to expand...

The video of the presentation showed the demo and it was running on a GTX 770. The presenter mentioned that this will work on the millions of cards already available (I'm assuming DX_11 compatible cards) before saying that it'll be available on Win8.1 & XBox1.

So, I figure that it's a software/driver requirement only. Which means that all current DX11 card will support it (Intel, nVidia, AMD). Cards might add hardware for it in the future, but it works on software/driver only atm & it runs well.
 
heatlesssun said:
But desktop applications employ the same UI conventions as always, the only difference is in how they might be launched if not from the task bar.
Click to expand...

There are tons of things that, by default, will throw you back into Metro. Such as the image viewer, pdf viewer, UAC, media player. You can configure it to not do this but that just means more work. And it freaks people out to have their desktop suddenly whisked away for some metro interface. It seems Microsoft forgot interface design 101.

And launching applications is an important part of using a computer. When it becomes a chore to launch applications because of how disconcerting the Start Screen is, that is a problem.
 
damicatz said:
There are tons of things that, by default, will throw you back into Metro. Such as the image viewer, pdf viewer, UAC, media player. You can configure it to not do this but that just means more work. And it freaks people out to have their desktop suddenly whisked away for some metro interface. It seems Microsoft forgot interface design 101.

And launching applications is an important part of using a computer. When it becomes a chore to launch applications because of how disconcerting the Start Screen is, that is a problem.
Click to expand...

I always find it interesting how Linux can do anything, limited only by the knowledge of the user but setting program defaults is work. In the case of a PDF file in a default install of Windows 7 there is no default viewer so one has to be installed.

People who like and use Windows 8 readily admit that it is different and can take time to get used to. As far as the link you refer to, Microsoft actually had a guy talking about this point about the Modem UI. Sure, you can keep things familiar, but then something unfamiliar comes along that changes everything and then the familiar becomes the forgotten. Not his words but his point.
 
You can go on about how OpenGL is the standard, but when 2 of the 3 major platforms use Direct X what do you think developers will focus on? I was all for the PS4, now this has me thinking a little differently- I actually dropped the idea of getting a new console this year and will stick with what I have for now and sit back and watch what ends up happening- GTA5, SR4, BF4 an COD will hold me on my 360 and PC until Fall 2014.
 
The PS3 actually uses an OpenGL ES variant called PSGL. It's both technically OpenGL and technically not OpenGL.
 
heatlesssun said:
I always find it interesting how Linux can do anything, limited only by the knowledge of the user but setting program defaults is work. In the case of a PDF file in a default install of Windows 7 there is no default viewer so one has to be installed.
Click to expand...

If setting program defauts is work, then might I suggest some practice? ;)
Linux, without heavy customization, is not an automated, or "smart" OS; in fact, it is a very "dumb" OS in the sense that the user needs to tell it what to do on almost all fronts.

But because of this, Linux is very flexible, can do almost anything, and again, is limited only by the knowledge of the user.
Windows on the other hand, is a much "smarter" OS, especially out of the box.

But because many things have been automated, there are instances where a user will hit a brick wall, and that's literally as far as they can go (without recompiling and reprogramming the OS kernel, of course).
This is why Linux is so valued in supercomputers, servers, embedded devices, and just about anything that Windows won't run on.

This isn't a fault of Windows, as Microsoft designed it specifically for x86 processors in desktops, laptops, tablets, and some smartphones (x86 or ARM); it's just the market it was designed for.
However, because Linux is not as automated, or "smart", as other OSes, it makes it very difficult for non-technological users to pickup and use, especially out of the box.

Canonical is trying to fix this with the most recent incarnations of Ubuntu, but because of this, Ubuntu 11.XX on up has been completely disowned by the true Linux community.
Ubuntu became too rigid and locked-down, especially for a Debian-branch OS, which are renowned for being incredibly flexible.

In the end, the use the tool needed for the job.
The only thing I've disliked in recent years is the dishonesty from Microsoft and the lack of choices/options for altering Windows 8 out of the box, but Classic Shell fixes this for the time being.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top