Microsoft Bringing Back Start Menu And Windowed Apps

For those that think this is a minor issue...

With every release of Windows after 95 up to this point a user of the current Windows OS could sit down at a computer and be at home enough to start using the computer effectively, This is not true for Windows 8 and that has been a disaster. MS has done permanent damage to its brand.

For those that think this is a minor issue...

Businesses were never going to migrate in large numbers to a version of Windows without the Start Menu. It is like MS want to run off long standing customers.

After Vista MS seemed to have learned a lesson, MS ran wide spread beta tests of Windows 7 and focused on customer feedback and making changes the customers wanted and BANG they had a huge success and the best OS put on a computer to date.

Whatever MS learned from Vista they forgot and with Windows 8 did none of the thing they did right with Windows 7 development and BANG MS has a disaster on it hands a disaster they seem incapable of moving quickly enough to overcome.

MS is currently run by morons.
 
How is this even an argument still?

If you're one of the crazies who thinks it was never crap, you're wrong: MS is fixing it because it was crap. You're too delusional to accept reality.

If you're a weirdo who thought it was okay, but could see how "others" could want the option, enjoy the new functionality and never tell anyone you've switched.

If you've been screaming for the option since day one and understand it's not laziness, or refusal to learn, but simply an inefficient interface and pointless when 7 works so well, congrats - we win, and eventually we may upgrade.. to 9.
 
Glad to see MS doing whatever it takes to make money, even though they were making it anyways regardless.


Also, no he customer is not always right. Thats how we ended up with countless C.O.D. titles and Justin Bieber, lol. :D
 
Max Mike said:
Seriously, you can't be serious.

1. Customers have been screaming blue murder over this for a year and a half.
2. The core of Windows 8 is not that different from Windows 7 and there have been TWO service packs.
3. There are third party applications that do it and MS cannot manage the same.

If Microsoft programmers could not have reintroduced a bug free Start Menu in two months all of them need to be fired for incompetence. This should have been done and settled over a year ago.

This has NOTHING to do with bugs and vetting this is about the stupid arrogance of a company that thinks it can ignore customer wishes without facing consequences. This is about a company ignoring customers wishes and trying to force their customers to do things the way the company wants.
Click to expand...

Yeah, stupid arrogance. You're certainly an expert on that. By all mean, regale us with tales of your OS development experience. I want to hear ALL about it.

david_ said:
How is this even an argument still?

If you're one of the crazies who thinks it was never crap, you're wrong: MS is fixing it because it was crap. You're too delusional to accept reality.

If you're a weirdo who thought it was okay, but could see how "others" could want the option, enjoy the new functionality and never tell anyone you've switched.

If you've been screaming for the option since day one and understand it's not laziness, or refusal to learn, but simply an inefficient interface and pointless when 7 works so well, congrats - we win, and eventually we may upgrade.. to 9.
Click to expand...

MS is "fixing" it because they've realized the effort to combat the bad rap is futile. I happen to believe the most of the 8-haters don't know why they hate it. But when offered a comfy seat on the hate-Microsoft bandwagon, well hell yes, why not? It's sort of like a modern day witch burning.

And for those who think Windows 7 "works so well", why do you care? Why would you switch to 8 anyway? The loathing some of you have for something a relatively trivial as a computer operating system is shameful.
 
david_ said:
If you've been screaming for the option since day one and understand it's not laziness, or refusal to learn, but simply an inefficient interface and pointless when 7 works so well, congrats - we win, and eventually we may upgrade.. to 9.
Click to expand...

This is why we are having this debate I guess. I've said that something like the Start Menu should have been an option since 8.0 RTM. And yes Windows 8 needed more KBM friendliness and familiarity for traditional users. But the notion that 8 is just SOOO hard to use with a mouse and keyboard just got overplayed and the situation now with 8.1 Update 1 is much better than at 8.0's release. The taskbar changes I think are more important than the Start Menu because the method for switching applications is now consistent with a mouse, the way one navigates programs, desktop and modern is the same. That's something that I thought was a problem in 8 and now it's not.

So yes, mistakes were made and they are getting resolved and I think we are at the point that using 8.1 on a desktop will be very comfortable for a number of users who think 8 is a POS but have no idea that it's now received two major updates for the KBM issues.
 
Eradan said:
Yeah, stupid arrogance. You're certainly an expert on that. By all mean, regale us with tales of your OS development experience. I want to hear ALL about it.
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You have to be practical sometimes. It seems enough people think that the Start Menu is the key to Windows functionality so there's really no way Microsoft was going to get around not dealing with it. But thankfully the Metro off switch is never going to happen and that Microsoft is going about it the right, if belated way, with configuration options and not a wholesale blast to past switch.

Eradan said:
MS is "fixing" it because they've realized the effort to combat the bad rap is futile. I happen to believe the most of the 8-haters don't know why they hate it.
Click to expand...

Certainly a lot of people don't like Windows 8 because someone told them it sucked. My brother in-law bought a desktop recently and he said the friends that advised him on the purchase said Windows 8 was no good. So he had no idea what was up.

But scarier than this group are the people that are technically capable but didn't spend enough time with 8 and the updates to really know what is there or how it works very well. My guess is that most of the people in this thread who don't like 8 haven't tried the current updated.

Eradan said:
And for those who think Windows 7 "works so well", why do you care? Why would you switch to 8 anyway? The loathing some of you have for something a relatively trivial as a computer operating system is shameful.
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The prior version of Windows has historically been the current version of Windows' biggest competitor. It's funny to see all of the bluster about people switching to Macs or Linux when the truth of the matter is that most people with PCs running 7 aren't probably in the market at this point for new PCs or OS upgrades anyway. Heck 1/4 in four PC is still running XP and had no interest in even in the vaunted 7.
 
I currently love the way 8.1 works. Update 1 just adds the tastiest peanut butter icing to an already explosively yummy chocolate cake. :D

The only versions that I actually hate are ME & Vista (even with every update applied).
 
Eradan said:
Yeah, stupid arrogance. You're certainly an expert on that. By all mean, regale us with tales of your OS development experience. I want to hear ALL about it.

MS is "fixing" it because they've realized the effort to combat the bad rap is futile. I happen to believe the most of the 8-haters don't know why they hate it. But when offered a comfy seat on the hate-Microsoft bandwagon, well hell yes, why not? It's sort of like a modern day witch burning.

And for those who think Windows 7 "works so well", why do you care? Why would you switch to 8 anyway? The loathing some of you have for something a relatively trivial as a computer operating system is shameful.
Click to expand...

Damn you really are as dumb as you sound. My guess is I had my nose stuck in computer development before you were off of a baby bottle.

MS is fixing it because they screwed the pooch... period. Nothing trivial about this if you have to deal with support problems Windows 8 is causing. Nothing trivial about the unnecessary damage MS has done to itself.
 
I just hope I can still hit the start key and go straight to a search. I really have no use for the start menu in my day to day computing since I just use the pin to bar for everything I use heavily.
 
03grandam said:
Glad to see MS doing whatever it takes to make money, even though they were making it anyways regardless.
Click to expand...

They were profiting from inertia, not from Windows 8 and forward. Staying complacent and not making good decisions to keep the momentum going and eventually it comes to an end. This isn't brain surgery here.
 
david_ said:
How is this even an argument still?

If you're one of the crazies who thinks it was never crap, you're wrong: MS is fixing it because it was crap. You're too delusional to accept reality.

If you're a weirdo who thought it was okay, but could see how "others" could want the option, enjoy the new functionality and never tell anyone you've switched.

If you've been screaming for the option since day one and understand it's not laziness, or refusal to learn, but simply an inefficient interface and pointless when 7 works so well, congrats - we win, and eventually we may upgrade.. to 9.
Click to expand...

Can't tell if serious or trolling....

I guess I'm the weirdo. :D Just proving my wife right. Thanks...
 
Max Mike said:
Damn you really are as dumb as you sound. My guess is I had my nose stuck in computer development before you were off of a baby bottle.

MS is fixing it because they screwed the pooch... period. Nothing trivial about this if you have to deal with support problems Windows 8 is causing. Nothing trivial about the unnecessary damage MS has done to itself.
Click to expand...

You guess? Well let us know when you figure it out.

Second paragraph is all cynical conjecture. Next....
 
Getting 13 people trained on Windows 7 versus Windows XP wasn't bad at all...easy peasy. Doing a training for Windows 8 for ONE PERSON without the aid of a start menu was an exercise in futility. Number one question asked was "Why is the menu gone?" and second was "Can we get it back?"
 
I am a Microsoft Fanboi, but even this 8.1 "fix" isn't enough. Windows 8 is the present day Windows Me and/or Windows Vista.

Regardless of the fixes, it's still total crap for kb/mouse users and the whole user experience is just total shit. Simple things like the video "app" taking over full screen when launching a video rather than showing it in a window. There's a reason I have 2560x1440 desktop pixels and it's not to watch video on all of them.

Windows 8 may be OK for consumers, but it's utter shit for business use. Watching the 8.1 launch event and seeing the presenter getting super excited that you can now right-click a tile made me wonder whether everyone in Redmond is on crack.

Tiles are shit for business users. Business users are the bread and butter of MS. Stop fucking with your customer base that actually pays your bills, kkthxbai.
 
Thuleman said:
I am a Microsoft Fanboi, but even this 8.1 "fix" isn't enough. Windows 8 is the present day Windows Me and/or Windows Vista.

Regardless of the fixes, it's still total crap for kb/mouse users and the whole user experience is just total shit. Simple things like the video "app" taking over full screen when launching a video rather than showing it in a window. There's a reason I have 2560x1440 desktop pixels and it's not to watch video on all of them.
Click to expand...

The newer, post Update 1, update will include those apps that can be windowed on your desktop machine (or full on your tablet). Also, the video app can be changed to WMP if you desire (or VLC or whatever you want). Metro apps by default is a complaint, but it can be changed. Hopefully, the new update (with the start menu - later this year?) will address some of those issues you have, which it should.
 
I've got to say... I have to be working in some weird parallel universe here :( Since our corporate office made WIndows 8.1 available for deploying via SCCM, I've switched over about a dozen people. These include application and web developers, my fellow Systems Engineers, a couple physician support personnel, the Director of IT, a couple desktop support guys, and a few office staff. The training was pretty minimal when I showed them they could pin the software to the start screen and/or the taskbar and how to create shortcuts on the desktop. We actually have doctors and administration hounding us every day when corporate is going to get the Surface Pro's certified for our network so they can use a Windows 8 tablet... and that is from 5 of 12 different facilities in our one division of the entire company.. so the demand is pretty high. We already have some Windows 7 tablets like the Slates approved, but they don't want those, they want Windows 8.
 
Honestly, if you couldn't figure out how to navigate windows 8 before, I feel sorry for you.

Was the new interface better? Worse? Debatable. But to be outraged at it is puzzling to me.
 
farscapesg1 said:
I've got to say... I have to be working in some weird parallel universe here :( Since our corporate office made WIndows 8.1 available for deploying via SCCM, I've switched over about a dozen people. These include application and web developers, my fellow Systems Engineers, a couple physician support personnel, the Director of IT, a couple desktop support guys, and a few office staff. The training was pretty minimal when I showed them they could pin the software to the start screen and/or the taskbar and how to create shortcuts on the desktop. We actually have doctors and administration hounding us every day when corporate is going to get the Surface Pro's certified for our network so they can use a Windows 8 tablet... and that is from 5 of 12 different facilities in our one division of the entire company.. so the demand is pretty high. We already have some Windows 7 tablets like the Slates approved, but they don't want those, they want Windows 8.
Click to expand...

No, my experience has been the same. I've only deployed a few Windows 8 machines but time spent training users has been minimal. One client purchased a Windows 8 laptop and made it available for employees to check out to take the OS for a test drive. It is always checked out and the response has been very positive. The feedback I often receive after someone has spent a little time with it is: I don't get all the fuss.

maverikv said:
Honestly, if you couldn't figure out how to navigate windows 8 before, I feel sorry for you.

Was the new interface better? Worse? Debatable. But to be outraged at it is puzzling to me.
Click to expand...

I agree. Even more puzzling to see so much outrage here, in a community of ostensibly computer savvy users.
 
Thuleman said:
Regardless of the fixes, it's still total crap for kb/mouse users and the whole user experience is just total shit. Simple things like the video "app" taking over full screen when launching a video rather than showing it in a window. There's a reason I have 2560x1440 desktop pixels and it's not to watch video on all of them.
Click to expand...

Hmm. So regardless of the fixes, even if the fix is running everything in a window like you're complaining about here, which this next update will do, it's still just total shit? That doesn't make any sense.

With the current update that goes general release on Tuesday, your complaint has been addressed regardless. When 8.1 Update 1 is installed on a device with KBM, defaults are changed from modern apps to desktop apps. The only exception to this are PDFs. There's never been a PDF viewer in the box for Windows prior to Windows 8 so actually while defaulting full screen you do actually see the PDF now instead of nothing. However the new close and minimize buttons are familiar to desktop users and you can snap full screen apps to the side, just like desktop apps in Windows 7.

Thuleman said:
Windows 8 may be OK for consumers, but it's utter shit for business use. Watching the 8.1 launch event and seeing the presenter getting super excited that you can now right-click a tile made me wonder whether everyone in Redmond is on crack.
Click to expand...

If you're talking about the 8.1 Update (you've always been able to right click on a tile starting with 8.0), right clicking of tile shows a context menu on Start Screen instead of the app bar. And there are now APIs to actually detect a mouse click versus a finger swipe, so developers can now better tailor modern apps to work better with the input being used.

Thuleman said:
Tiles are shit for business users. Business users are the bread and butter of MS. Stop fucking with your customer base that actually pays your bills, kkthxbai.
Click to expand...

Yes, static icons, those are all about business. Tiles are great for notifications and notifications are quite useful for business purposes.
 
maverikv said:
Honestly, if you couldn't figure out how to navigate windows 8 before, I feel sorry for you.
Click to expand...

The 8.0 UI for KBM isn't rocket science but it was a big change and some things with KBM were awkward and the bigger problem is that it was an unfamiliar experience. The KBM experience with 8.1 Update 1 is much more in line with traditional Windows. The taskbar can now drive all navigation, both desktop and modern apps and is always available, even to full screen modern apps. Modern apps now have a close and minimize button. The only hot corner that actually is needed for anything with KBM is the bottom right for the Charms Bar.

With this update, it's hard for me to see how most users would need more than 20 minutes to get used to it and be reasonably productive. The big change would be the full screen Start Screen and of course that's going to change with the new non-full screen Start Menu.

maverikv said:
Was the new interface better? Worse? Debatable. But to be outraged at it is puzzling to me.
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The new UI simply wasn't well integrated into the desktop for KBM use at release. It's much better now and isn't so different from 7 for KBM use now.
 
I guess it doesn't matter to me anyway since I have my pc set to load steam big picture mode instead of the windows UI anyway, but whenever I have to load up the windows UI to make changes or updates I naver have a problem with it
 
CreepyUncleGoogle said:
I'm really excited to hear the news. Windows 8 was only mediocre in my opinion and it was really seriously hurting the PC industry to the point where OEMs were back to offering Windows 7 on some of their computers.
Click to expand...

Windows 8 isn't the cause of sluggish desktop sales. The iPad is.
 
A year and a half after release, Windows 8 finally achieves beta functionality.
 
Terpfen said:
Windows 8 isn't the cause of sluggish desktop sales. The iPad is.
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Tablets in general are, which is why Windows 8 is what it is. Microsoft has made its mistakes and taken its lumps over 8, but the stuff that's come out of Build looks like Microsoft is positioning itself well to compete in the tablet space. Free Windows for 9" and smaller devices, Universal Apps and with Intel's contribution of these new Atom SoCs that are already a platform for very well received Windows 8 devices.

Apple could be getting in a tight spot with tablets. It's now not only has to deal with cheap Android tablets but now cheap full Windows x86 tablets. Apple has a great product and fantastic margins so the money is going to be there, but the market share and units sold is probably going to take another hit.
 
ManofGod said:
Wow, for pre beta software, this stuff works surprisingly 100% stable. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Stability and reliability of Windows 8 was never an issue. That part of it has always been extremely solid. I've seen a lot less problems (a few here and there) with Windows 8 than I have with even Windows 7. Even the problems I did see were basic issues or driver issues or whatever. Nothing really wrong with the Windows core (some update loops, etc., too).

I've always said 90% of the problems people have with Windows 8 is the Start Screen and Modern apps/Charms. Whether or not you or I agree with those problems really doesn't matter. If the majority of people have issue with it - it's a problem. It doesn't matter if it's due to familiarity, stubborness, or just plain not wanting to learn - it's a problem if people won't use it. You make a product people want to use if you want it to sell. Even if it's more efficient one way, if people won't buy it, you don't make money. Microsoft is refining Win8 to be what the customer wants and their image for the future of Windows.
 
Finally something that will help boost 8s popularity issues. Plus it makes building a pc nicer with win8 and not something that's built primarily for touchscreen adapted for the old mouse and keyboard
 
tazeat said:
I want to see Start8's corporate customer list :p
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Shhh. Don't leak that I bought a copy. ;) It's for my wife, though. I'm fine with the Start Screen. It took a while. I forced myself to use it to get used to it. It was a rough beginning.
 
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