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Microsoft Bringing Back Start Menu And Windowed Apps
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heatlesssun
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Was it relenting or simply needing the time to get this into the OS? This isn't just a Metro off switch with the return of the classic menu. I'm not saying that this shouldn't have been in 8 from the beginning. But likewise Windows Vista should have been Windows 7, other than it took some work to get there.
In any case, whatever Windows 8 was going to be in 2012, it probably was going to fall short of everything it needed to do, simply because it does so much. With this future update, 8.1 is turning out to be a very flexible powerhouse that runs on a lot of different kinds of hardware and input devices that adapts well to all of those devices and input devices. There's really no single OS out now that comes close to this flexibility.
heatlesssun
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What doesn't make sense to me about this statement is just how pretty much the same the desktop windowing model is between 7 and 8. And snapped modern apps are very useful on a desktop with a large monitor, much more so than a small screen tablet. The only thing in 8.1 that has to be full screen is the Start Screen. And I get that people think that's some huge deal and sure it's different but limiting? No more so overall than the Start Menu which while not being full screen, takes over focus and can't remain on screen once it looses focus. The Start Screen with multiple monitors can, which is kind of useful if you use live tiles for notifications.
The only two remaining niggles I have with Windows 8.1 is I can't figure out how to run the Start Screen or modern apps on a separate touch LCD entirely by itself (meaning everything else on my main monitor) and I can't figure find any apps to spend my $20 dollar MS credit on (and the last thread I asked in no one responded).
Tawnos
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Invoke start from that separate touch screen, launch app. Alternatively, launch on main screen and drag from top center over to second screen.
As for the $20 credit, is it a store only credit or anything microsoft sells?
CreepyUncleGoogle
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You can stop defending it by reciting the original selling points now. Even Microsoft isn't wasting effort trying to convince people it wasn't a mistake.
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Is this going to be an 8.2 update?
Ur_Mom
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More than likely. I saw it mentioned that it would be a Windows 8 update and not Windows 9.
It's a little 7" touch screen on my computer case. I am hoping for a persistent UI that I can just leave the start screen there and it remain there no matter what. when I was trying it before it seemed to steal focus and I had issues when I was gaming. But that may be from back when I was trying it under 8. I haven't tried since 8.1
My credit is an app store credit from the nokia promotion. I don't think I can use it for anything other than apps. but I think it might be on my MS account but I don't know how to check.
Ur_Mom
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I love live tiles. But, yes it was limiting. Ask the people that had issues with it. It was limiting to them. For a pure analytic standpoint, maybe not. But, from a subjective standpoint, it very well could be. Hence, the changes.
heatlesssun
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A list of favs of mine that I bought:
Drawboard PDF $7.99 http://apps.microsoft.com/windows/en-us/app/6d65bcd8-8390-4533-af58-307d2e1ec1dd - Nice PDF app, supports form editing and pen markup on a tablet.
Dragon's Lair $9.99 http://apps.microsoft.com/windows/en-us/app/8a7ae321-96fb-4c9a-a9f5-c9840bed7fc5 - Clone of the classic game
Halo: Spartan Assault $1.99 http://apps.microsoft.com/windows/en-us/app/8fe2d694-baa2-4011-99c0-3a22216223bb - Works with a 360 control as well as KBM
Tweetium $2.99 http://apps.microsoft.com/windows/en-us/app/4071d364-44bf-47ce-9eb7-d527e6f182a2 - Great Twitter client, snap is cool on the desktop
LCARS Interface $2.99 http://apps.microsoft.com/windows/en-us/app/cf3da302-e3bb-4dc1-a1ab-63cbcbed3662 - If you're a Star Trek fan, a must buy
Note Anytime $3.99 http://apps.microsoft.com/windows/en-us/app/b143522d-3500-4858-9be5-2dec4dcb693e - Nice free from note taking tool
Vector ArtStudio $4.99 http://apps.microsoft.com/windows/en-us/app/vector-artstudio/7fa6c5ac-3a06-414f-aa7a-82d067ad11dd - Nice vector drawing app
As for launching modern apps on a specific screen, there's no way to confine that, but modern apps will open on the screen that they are launched, either from the taskbar or Screen, something that I wish desktop apps did inherently.
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Will I be able to keep my start screen now that I have become used to it and don't want to go back to a start menu? If not I'm going to complain that they must change in an update or the next version to make me happy 
heatlesssun
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Will I be able to keep my start screen now that I have become used to it and don't want to go back to a start menu? If not I'm going to complain that they must change in an update or the next version to make me happy
I've not seen any definite word but I'm pretty sure there will be a option to control this with it defaulting to the new Start Menu when KBM is detected. Just like how the additions to KBM usage have been done in 8.1 Update.
Ur_Mom
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Will I be able to keep my start screen now that I have become used to it and don't want to go back to a start menu? If not I'm going to complain that they must change in an update or the next version to make me happy
Yes, they've said you can keep the Start Screen, which is probably very handy with a tablet.
I like the Start Screen, but I think I will go with the new Start Menu for desktops...
Yup. Then I will finally use 2007+ Office at home.
Windows Vista was Windows 7. The core was the same. They just removed the bloat and charged people twice. Good move by MS.
What does Win8 add that I'm missing from 7? I haven't seen anything.
bla bla bla.
I have no issues with windows 8.
But you stubborn old farts that don't like change just cant stop whining. waa waa waa its different mommy I don't like it, I want the old stuff, waaa waa waa.
AFD
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There was an update on the original article..
The new metro/classic start menu seems like an interesting compromise..
http://www.engadget.com/2014/04/02/microsoft-teases-a-classic-start-menu-for-windows-8-1-with-built/
Thanks! I'll check these out
heatlesssun
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I was simply point out the that the windowing model for desktop apps didn't change between 7 & 8. That's a simple fact and adding back a Start Menu doesn't change anything in that regard. I have no idea why statement of basic facts about how 8 works is often to made out to be a defense of it by some.
heatlesssun
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Limiting is not the same as unfamiliar. I get that some people freak out over the full screen nature of the Start Screen because they are used and/or like a tiny popup menu in the corner. I think the Start Menu is limiting because it's got nothing but static icons and a very limited short cut capability compared to the Start Screen.
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It's because in the hater's minds, anyone who doesn't bash it has to be defending it. Apparently there is absolutely no room for middle-ground. Some of us realize that while you have a been a strong supporter of it on the forums, you have also been critical of some aspects. Too many people just can't get over the visual aspects. Sure, I can see the Start Screen as being cumbersome to some people, especially in a busy office/developer/etc. environment. But for the average at-home typical user... that bought the new $800 PC to check email and surf the web... it wouldn't affect their "work flow" except that they can't be bothered with a new interface.
Of course it was "relenting". It would have taken them a couple days to make the change that so many people desired. How long did it take StarDock to make Start8? Doesn't matter how many improvements are under the hood, if people aren't happy with the design they aren't going to invest time, money or positive emotions into it.
Today I had a customer who was asking about a new computer tell me he didn't want 8. I wasn't going to argue with him of course. There is no reason to make my customers dislike me by pushing them towards something they aren't going to enjoy using. Keeping my clients happy has kept me in business for many years! This wasn't the first time I'd had that type of conversation. MS could have avoided this entire situation easily enough by giving users options.
MS is a business trying to make money and Apps are very big money, so you can't blame them for wanting a slice of the App(le) pie. Of course shoving that pie down peoples throats isn't going to gain many supporters (such as yourself). Win8 market share is probably 90% new device sales - if the majority of those purchasers were given the option they would have stuck with Win7. Why would anyone want to fight against their customers so much?
heatlesssun
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If Microsoft had relented, it would have thrown in a Metro off switch by now. Start Menu replacements aren't new to 8, and Start 8 and those replacements don't support tiles that AFAIK. I think it was pretty clear that 8 RTM was a first attempt to get something out the door and that a lot of change was in store.
I know plenty of people that don't like 8 but that opinion is often formed from hearsay, not actual experience. Of course first impressions are often lasting impressions and hard and slow to change, probably slower than the change in 8. With 8.1 with just the current update, a lot of people that don't like 8 would probably be fine with it.
I agree, but what options exactly? Many were screaming from the rooftops for a Metro off switch option and I think that would have been a very bad idea for the long term. Windows is going have a growing presence on devices other than desktops and laptops. Sure more should have been done in Windows to support KBM but Windows won the desktop war long ago, that market isn't going to see much growth probably ever again and it really has little to do with the OS, it's the nature of today's increasing smaller and more mobile computing devices.
MS is a business trying to make money and Apps are very big money, so you can't blame them for wanting a slice of the App(le) pie. Of course shoving that pie down peoples throats isn't going to gain many supporters (such as yourself). Win8 market share is probably 90% new device sales - if the majority of those purchasers were given the option they would have stuck with Win7. Why would anyone want to fight against their customers so much?
It's more than just app revenue though. Even if Windows 8 were the perfect desktop OS that Windows 8 opponents dreamed of, is there any solid evidence that people would have gone out and bought tons of new desktops and laptops or copies of Windows 8 when they already had Windows 7 and in a world that's increasingly using tablets and smartphones? As for the majority of people sticking with 7 given the option between 7 & 8, perhaps. I bet a large percentage as well would have gone with XP as well given the choice.
CreepyUncleGoogle
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You're motivated to make statements you think are factual because of an emotional attachment (or obsession) you personally have with your idealized computing model. Your baby is being threatened so you're acting out to protect it. It's totally normal to do that so congrats, you're like human and stuff.
The only reason a company ever does anything is for money. Windows 8 isn't making enough sales so something has to be done until a new OS can get released that doesn't have a bad reputation.
heatlesssun
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And this has nothing to do with the fact that the windowing model for desktop apps is pretty much the same 7 & 8.
CreepyUncleGoogle
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Yeah, and I'm not talking about that. I was talking about Modern UI apps. Go read the other postings and stop being so emo.
This argument about windows 8 amuses me each time I hear it. So, its like no big deal to sit down and learn windows 8's new UI setup with the start screen and you're an "old fogey" if you won't take the time to learn new things. Then those same folks like yourself say you think the old start menu is limiting. Fair enough. Yet it wasn't hard to sit down and spend 30minutes with 2k/XP/Vista/7 and make custom toolbars and shortcut folders with those UIs? I've been doing that since 2k. Personally I fail to see how a side scrolling apps screen (design that clearly favors touchscreens) that can end up rather large is better. Then again, I've preferred a minimalist setup for years with few icons on the desktop.
Win8 brought us "live tiles", tiles that weren't that customizable to begin with and were basically win7 widgets. Yay.
Yea it is just awful them stupid customers want a system that works better.
What is stunning is after two years of customers screaming "bring the start menu back" MS still does not seem to grasp this should be a immediate priority but instead they plan for "at some point in the future".
These companies need to remember the old axiom that "the customer is ALWAYS right".
These companies need to remember the old axiom that "the customer is ALWAYS right".
Tawnos
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So, if there were significant bugs or regressions introduced by bringing back something that wasn't fully vetted, you're cool with that, and there wouldn't be a million posts on various forums yelling about Microsoft and their bugs?
Ur_Mom
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Except for Aero Glass.
I wonder if I can beg Microsoft enough to get that back... Personal preference, but I really liked it. I enjoy going to work with Windows 7 because of it. Even after being on Win8 for so long, I still miss it... Making it an all in one OS (rather than more tablet than desktop in 8 or more desktop and very little tablet in 7) like they are going is definitely a positive thing. I really like the changes they are making. 8.1 Update 1 - Taskbar in Metro, Window controls in Metro apps, apps show on taskbar (no more dual interface, taskbar for desktop apps, side charm for Metro)... Then, with the newer update (start menu, windowed Metro apps), I really like how Win8 is maturing.
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Apparently everyone...
heatlesssun
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I'm not saying it's easy peesy but in it's current state in the current 8.1 Update, the new UI is considerably easier to deal with for traditional desktop KBM than 8.0 RTM. The taskbar is now always available, modern apps have minimize and close buttons and desktop apps are preferred over modern apps on a desktop.
Custom toolbars exist in 8.
The tiles are more customizable than the static icons in the Start Menu. I get that some people like the Start Menu and hate the Start Screen and I'm not debating one's preference. I'm just saying that both have their advantages and disadvantages and one thing that I've never liked about the Start Menu is it's limited ability to handle user defined shortcuts, the Start Screen is more capable in that area.
heatlesssun
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Except for Aero Glass.
It is a redering difference but all of the functional Aero parts are the same, except that Aero Windows+Alt thing.
I don't have a problem with it being an option.
Seriously, you can't be serious.
1. Customers have been screaming blue murder over this for a year and a half.
2. The core of Windows 8 is not that different from Windows 7 and there have been TWO service packs.
3. There are third party applications that do it and MS cannot manage the same.
If Microsoft programmers could not have reintroduced a bug free Start Menu in two months all of them need to be fired for incompetence. This should have been done and settled over a year ago.
This has NOTHING to do with bugs and vetting this is about the stupid arrogance of a company that thinks it can ignore customer wishes without facing consequences. This is about a company ignoring customers wishes and trying to force their customers to do things the way the company wants.
Ur_Mom
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I know. Take it as tongue in cheek. It's not that big of a deal. Just whining over something minor... It was cool, and I'd like to see it back. Kind of like having green Fruity Pebbles missing. It doesn't make a difference, but you miss it when it's gone.