mechwarrior online

wonderfield

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Dec 11, 2011
Messages
7,396
Suffice it to say that producing a good, profitable BattleTech game shouldn't be this hard. Unless BattleTech licensing costs are just completely absurd, anyway, which isn't out of the question.
 

acerbic

Limp Gawd
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
343
WEll, people are saying they are going for chargebacks. Whether they are getting them or not is a different story. AND that doesn't change whether it's appropriate or not.
They are getting them, I know this for a fact. One of the people who regularly plays on my LAN every week, and multiple people in the group I was playing this with did do a chargeback and it did work and it is valid. However their accounts is now perma banned. They did this because while PGI was initially giving refunds, they tightened up on that.

We had around 50 people before everything went to shit. I'd say roughly around half asked for refunds and I know personally of four people that called their credit cards once PGI said they weren't doing refunds anymore. That's just in my group, I know it was just as bad in rival groups we played with. In fact the vast amount of refunds and charge backs was what spurred PGI to talk to people about 3pv and ghost heat... because that's when people started explaining how to do a charge back on the PGI forums.

Charge backs are kinda minor compared to what others were trying to do, involves lawyers.
 

Modred189

I'm Smarter Than You
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
14,678
As a lawyer, I wish them luck, lol. They are going to spend a LOT more money on the attorneys than what they want back from PGI.
 

jojo69

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Sep 13, 2009
Messages
10,510
As a lawyer, I wish them luck, lol. They are going to spend a LOT more money on the attorneys than what they want back from PGI.
I don't think that matters.

This crap has to stop somewhere. There has to be a price for failure.

Games are a major cultural focus these days. Franchises, especially ones with the longevity and lore of BT/MW matter to people. I understand that game studios are businesses and have to make money, but these days it seems like a week doesn't go by where I don't hear of another steaming, fetid pile of fail being served up as a finished game.

There is no accountability, no penalty for failure, and seemingly not even a scrap of remorse from the people working on these embarrassments.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/8545-Shaming-PC-Ports-Because-Why-Not

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6b7xXKgvsY
 
Last edited:

Modred189

I'm Smarter Than You
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
14,678
I don't think that matters.

This crap has to stop somewhere. There has to be a price for failure.

Games are a major cultural focus these days. Franchises, especially ones with the longevity and lore of BT/MW matter to people. I understand that game studios are businesses and have to make money, but these days it seems like a week doesn't go by where I don't hear of another steaming, fetid pile of fail being served up as a finished game.

There is no accountability, no penalty for failure, and seemingly not even a scrap of remorse from the people working on these embarrassments.
I disagree, look at the trainwreck that was 38 Studios, or the way that CCP responded to the changes they made (the monacle etc) or the downfall of HiRez' Global Agenda and then Tribes: Ascend. Gamers need to start speaking with their wallet: buying good games and refusing to buy crap instead of buying into a game and then complaining 2 years later when it isn't as good as they had hoped.
 

acerbic

Limp Gawd
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
343
I disagree, look at the trainwreck that was 38 Studios, or the way that CCP responded to the changes they made (the monacle etc) or the downfall of HiRez' Global Agenda and then Tribes: Ascend. Gamers need to start speaking with their wallet: buying good games and refusing to buy crap instead of buying into a game and then complaining 2 years later when it isn't as good as they had hoped.
Or maybe developers should stop selling games while they are in their beta state, lying about features, lying about time frames, and then not delivering on things that were promised! Maybe when developers do that people should get their money back, and if denied should launch mass charge backs, to let developers know that this will not be tolerated.

The parties behind MWO couldn't even be bothered to address complaints that they were adding things they promised they would do not, and not adding things they promised they would, even with screen captures of their exact statements. When confronted with mass demands for refunds they gave a half ass response and then cracked down on refunds, it wasn't until mass charge backs that they bothered to address peoples concerns.
 

FearTheCow

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
May 2, 2006
Messages
4,932
The fact that they have a license until 2018 pisses me off as much as MS owning the license in the first place.

As someone pointed out, it is amazing that they have more people working on mechs to sell then they do working on game play.
 

acerbic

Limp Gawd
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
343
The fact that they have a license until 2018 pisses me off as much as MS owning the license in the first place.

As someone pointed out, it is amazing that they have more people working on mechs to sell then they do working on game play.
2020 now
 

wonderfield

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Dec 11, 2011
Messages
7,396
As someone pointed out, it is amazing that they have more people working on mechs to sell then they do working on game play.
It isn't amazing to me, but it does seem shortsighted. They're looking for short-term solutions rather than looking at the long-term benefits of expanding their base of paying customers by providing oft-requested and potentially engaging features.
 

Modred189

I'm Smarter Than You
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
14,678
It isn't amazing to me, but it does seem shortsighted. They're looking for short-term solutions rather than looking at the long-term benefits of expanding their base of paying customers by providing oft-requested and potentially engaging features.
Yea, it's not surprising from a team not used to this kind of game. Clearly they didn't scale their employment fast enough. It was important, like a year ago, to get as many mechs up and running as possible, followed by weapon balancing. Theoretically at that point, they could focus on the gameplay, UI etc. However, they dug too deep, too greedily, and kept pushing out mechs. They didn't know when to stop and pivot to the important stuff. THey got stuck focusing on that short term stuff and didn't restructure and grow their workforce to encompass the next phase.
So instead of a nice transition from one to the other, we have a rather... bumpy... ride.
 

rudy

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Apr 4, 2004
Messages
8,641
No, don't be that guy. Credit card chargebacks are meant for purchases in which you don't get what you paid for.
Yep so use it.

Charge backs are a service your credit card company offers you the customer, if not for charge backs and other protections then why use a credit card? Most reasonable people do not carry a balance so they should just use a debit card. Charge backs, rewards, protection, this is what you get when you buy with a credit card. And yes in cases where someone blatantly lied to you and did not deliver what they said you should request your money back, if the seller is unwilling to give it back you should do a charge back.

For most people this is not about the money its about making a point, a point which game studios seem to be unwilling to respect when people request action, so their is only one thing you can do now, hit them where it hurts, their pocket books the only thing they care about.

If a company wants to play a bait and switch game IMO they deserve what ever happens. If you want to hook people with pre orders then you better deliver what you promised within 6 months or so.
 

wonderfield

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Dec 11, 2011
Messages
7,396
But what, specifically, was the product purchased here? The Founder's package included 'Mechs, premium time, forum badges and...whatever. Were those items delivered or not delivered?
 

Modred189

I'm Smarter Than You
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
14,678
But what, specifically, was the product purchased here? The Founder's package included 'Mechs, premium time, forum badges and...whatever. Were those items delivered or not delivered?
The only thing missing, afaik, is a mention in the credits, which don't exist at all... so to use a legal term, there was "substantial performance" under the contract.
 

rudy

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Apr 4, 2004
Messages
8,641
I disagree, look at the trainwreck that was 38 Studios, or the way that CCP responded to the changes they made (the monacle etc) or the downfall of HiRez' Global Agenda and then Tribes: Ascend. Gamers need to start speaking with their wallet: buying good games and refusing to buy crap instead of buying into a game and then complaining 2 years later when it isn't as good as they had hoped.
I partially agree with you which is why I have a very strict NO preorder or kickstarter or anything else rule. I run a business and no one kick started me. We make product and people buy it. Customers only give money up front if they are buying a custom job and we make it clear they have risk but we will deliver all the parts. But it seems game companies think it is OK for them to say or write or show anything then just completely leave it out of the game, that in addition to shipping unstable or broken games.

Look some times there are balance issues in games or things that are opinionated, I do not hold a studio responsible for all these issues.

But at the same time if you are a studio you cross a line when you say you will build in features etc... And you do not, you also cross a line when you allow people to preorder or back a project, at that point it is your responsibility to fulfill any promise you have made, and make DAMN sure that no one on your staff ever promises a feature or deceives people into thinking they will get something they will not. I am glad you brought up tribes ascend which is a mess balance wise, but that's not even the main issue. Some of the first movies we saw of tribes ascend were bait and switch bullshit. They clearly showed havoc type crafts flying. Guess what HiRez doesn't even touch the game anymore and has not for months and to this day and that Havoc is nowhere to be seen, it was only used as a static prop in like 1 map, no one can fly it like in the videos. We are not talking about opinions here we are talking about them showing a product in videos and then never even putting it in the game. It's not even something you can buy. That is strait up bullshit. And a case like that is something where I think a person has the right to do a charge back if the company will not give them their money back. Their are also simply broken aspects of the game, sometimes your weapons just all disappear, this has been going on for almost as long as I can remember and they have done nothing about it. Its not cheating, its not a balance issue, its not an opinion or controversial game mechanic its a horrible bug that should be fixed.
 
Last edited:

acerbic

Limp Gawd
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
343
The only thing missing, afaik, is a mention in the credits, which don't exist at all... so to use a legal term, there was "substantial performance" under the contract.
You seem to think it's just the founders packs that were being refunded and then charged back after, this is far from the case. It was also pheonix packs, premium time, and MC purchased, people are getting all the money they spent.

1. Items we were told (repeatedly) would not be added were added (think 3pv).
2. Many items we were promised (and were the reason people bought the game) either won't be delivered, are being scaled back far enough they do not resemble what was promised, or have had their delivery dates repeatedly moved back for two years now.
3. Repeated changes were made to the game that made it non playable for multiple people since it's "release"

Plenty of people were pissed about the various bugs, the lack of maps, the crashing, the server issues, the match making issues, the constant changing of team drops, the weapon balance issues (LOL ghost heat, glass gauss, gauss delay, jump jet shake, SRMs, hell everything) that they always seemed to make worse. But people stuck in.

It wasn't until they threw in something they promised they would not (3pv), walked back the CW they claimed we would get, kicked the dates for things multiple times, and made two more cash grabs that people started to demand their money back.

We know we aren't going to get the product we were told we were sold. It's debatable that whatever the hell end it ends up as will ever be finished.

-It's also worth noting they told everyone they'd refund the cash, and then when those requests started rolling in they started to refuse to do it. Why, who knows but given the amount of people who've left the game it could have been bad. It was only once that happened that the charge backs started.
 

Modred189

I'm Smarter Than You
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
14,678
That's a lot of anecdotes and "the game went in a direction I didn't like."
i.e., not appropriate for a chargeback. Look, say I bought a PS3 on day one to run Linux. Then, how ever many years later, they removed that ability. I do NOT get to do a chargeback for that. This is the same thing.
 

ballistic90

2[H]4U
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Messages
3,308
That's a lot of anecdotes and "the game went in a direction I didn't like."
i.e., not appropriate for a chargeback. Look, say I bought a PS3 on day one to run Linux. Then, how ever many years later, they removed that ability. I do NOT get to do a chargeback for that. This is the same thing.
Exactly. That's the situation you would sue the developer. Chargebacks are for literal services/goods not rendered. When a developer fulfills even a portion of their promise, it makes it much more difficult to justify a chargeback, legally.
 

wonderfield

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Dec 11, 2011
Messages
7,396
It wasn't until they threw in something they promised they would not (3pv), walked back the CW they claimed we would get, kicked the dates for things multiple times, and made two more cash grabs that people started to demand their money back.
Considering no one paid money for these things, I find it difficult to reason why people would demand their money back for them. I've paid money for in-game currency and that's what was delivered to me. The game itself is free.

These guys should get knocked around if they promised a listing in the credits and that wasn't delivered, but apart from that, they're delivering what they've been paid to deliver.
 

acerbic

Limp Gawd
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
343
That's a lot of anecdotes and "the game went in a direction I didn't like."
i.e., not appropriate for a chargeback. Look, say I bought a PS3 on day one to run Linux. Then, how ever many years later, they removed that ability. I do NOT get to do a chargeback for that. This is the same thing.
LOL, are you so invested in this game you get upset if people pull their funds from it.

Look they promised us a chocolate volcano cake with our names written on it with a delivery date a year ago. Instead we are now being told they will give us an iceberg lettuce salad with tofu a year from now. People want their cash back, they should get it.

And it obviously is appropriate since... people got refunds until the flood gates opened and they stopped... and everybody (I know) who asked for a charge back got one.

I personally didn't demand one. The founders pack plus the MC I used wouldn't even cover a proper dinner here, it's no skin off my back. But I fully agree with everyone who did a charge back.
 

jojo69

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Sep 13, 2009
Messages
10,510
anything to make the bean counters take notice is for the good IMO
 

Modred189

I'm Smarter Than You
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
14,678
LOL, are you so invested in this game you get upset if people pull their funds from it.

Look they promised us a chocolate volcano cake with our names written on it with a delivery date a year ago. Instead we are now being told they will give us an iceberg lettuce salad with tofu a year from now. People want their cash back, they should get it.

And it obviously is appropriate since... people got refunds until the flood gates opened and they stopped... and everybody (I know) who asked for a charge back got one.

I personally didn't demand one. The founders pack plus the MC I used wouldn't even cover a proper dinner here, it's no skin off my back. But I fully agree with everyone who did a charge back.
A: You're missing the point> ALL I am saying is that a cc chargeback is an inappropriate method of recompense. A refund? ok. Small claims court? BETTER!!! (AFter all, PGI isn't sending a lawyer to reply to your summons. SO, DEFAULT JUDGMENT in your favor! Yay!) But not a cc chargeback.

B: You will eat your lettuce salad and you will LIKE IT! You can't handle the chocolate volcano! It would sear the eyes from your very sockets! Pop them in the radiant heat of it's coco madness! Kneel before your conflict-bean god of tasty baked confectionery delight! Cower! Grovel! PERISH IN THE DESPAIR OF YOUR CELLULOSE AND SOY-RIDDLED DESTINY!
 

rudy

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Apr 4, 2004
Messages
8,641
That's a lot of anecdotes and "the game went in a direction I didn't like."
i.e., not appropriate for a chargeback. Look, say I bought a PS3 on day one to run Linux. Then, how ever many years later, they removed that ability. I do NOT get to do a chargeback for that. This is the same thing.
I would do a chargeback if I bought it to run Linux. How the heck is it OK for a company to say, and gain positive press for a feature then wait until you are invested in the platform and suddenly pull it out from under you?

That being said there are limits to charge backs credit card companies have time limits some are as short as 3 months, others as long as 1 year, and sometimes you can negotiate a longer term especially if you have been a good customer and big spender. This is in fact one of the big reasons companies lie and string people along because they are hoping to get outside of the chargeback time. At some point if you lose that ability then you are forced to take legal action and they know most people don't have the time or money.

Their is nothing wrong with a charge back. You mentioned a refund, what don't you understand the WHOLE point of a charge back is when some dishonest company will not give you a refund. Obviously if you can get a refund you just ask for it. And one of the things a credit card company will do is ask you if you have requested a refund when they start the charge back process. Small claims court and all those other things are options but you should not be forced to go to those lengths. The credit card charge back as I clearly stated is a service the credit card company offers you in exchange for making them 2% of all your transactions. And you should use the service to make your point clear in cases where you feel cheated.
 

acerbic

Limp Gawd
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
343
Modred are you their company attorney?
No, but he did say he was a lawyer. And all his solutions involve lawyers and court. Obviously he'd rather there be a solution where a lawyer gets paid than someone simply having the credit card company fix it and avoiding the hassle of paying a lawyer.;)
 

Modred189

I'm Smarter Than You
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
14,678
Modred are you their company attorney?
No I am not, but if they are looking for reppresentation I won't say no! :)

No, but he did say he was a lawyer. And all his solutions involve lawyers and court. Obviously he'd rather there be a solution where a lawyer gets paid than someone simply having the credit card company fix it and avoiding the hassle of paying a lawyer.;)
hey look, I got to keep an eye on my bottom line. LOL
That said, if you look at my post above, the opposite is true. By going to small claims court you are almost never using an attorney. That is the point. And if I remember correctly are they a Canadian company? There is no way they are going to send an attorney to the United States for a small claims court case for a few hundred dollars.

Keep in mind folks, at the end of the day, I am not opposed to people who want their money back. I think it's kind of dumb, but that's your right to ask for it as a customer. That said, however, my only point is that a credit card chargeback is not the appropriate vehicle to get your money. Sure, it's available, but my point is that of using it for situations in which it is not called for makes it harder for other people to get their money using a charge back later in instances where it is actually called for.
 

wonderfield

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Dec 11, 2011
Messages
7,396
It seems like a lot of man hours went into something that didn't really achieve anything of value or significance. The best thing to come out of it is that increasing/decreasing armor is now faster, which is a pretty depressing thought considering how much effort must have gone into the entire project.

Matchmaking, voicecomm and weapon balancing is where they should be focusing their efforts. The original UI certainly wasn't bad enough to warrant such intense focus on its overhaul at the expense of everything else.
 

Modred189

I'm Smarter Than You
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
14,678
It's rather confusing, I think. I mean, it's nice to have it full screen, but even on my system, it's laggy, and shadows dance like crazy (Core i5@4ghz, gtx 660ti, 8gb ram). It's also kind of hard to find things and apply them.
ANyone else feel like the buttons are also too small?
 

skizzled

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Nov 13, 2007
Messages
1,944
It seems like a lot of man hours went into something that didn't really achieve anything of value or significance. The best thing to come out of it is that increasing/decreasing armor is now faster, which is a pretty depressing thought considering how much effort must have gone into the entire project.

Matchmaking, voicecomm and weapon balancing is where they should be focusing their efforts. The original UI certainly wasn't bad enough to warrant such intense focus on its overhaul at the expense of everything else.
Sure, but according to PGI, not having UI2.0 meant not being able to accomplish things they've been promising for years. They have treated UI2.0 as this huge roadblock in development.

Hopefully, it really was the "game changer" for them that will bring in all the features many of us have been looking forward to since finding out about the game.
 
D

Deleted member 174368

Guest
At this rate, we won't see Community Warfare until maybe 2015.

It's pretty amazing that they had 3 beta previews for UI 2.0 and didn't fix any of the major issues.
 

Modred189

I'm Smarter Than You
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
14,678
At this rate, we won't see Community Warfare until maybe 2015.

It's pretty amazing that they had 3 beta previews for UI 2.0 and didn't fix any of the major issues.
Bottom line: time's running out. If CW doesn't hit within 3 months of the clans hitting (assuming the clans are a balanced introduction), MWO is dead. And that's unfortunate. The core game being so great, albeit shallow, it wouldn't take much of a meta to really take off. But to slack off on that for so long...
I'm just glad it appears that MWO funds are supporting the development of Mechwarrior Tactics. THAT game shows CBT promise, especially with the new devs.
 
D

Deleted member 174368

Guest
Yeah, I'm a Legendary Founder but haven't played this game in a long time; was waiting for CW but after they delayed it for 1 year+ I just don't have any faith anymore.

If Private Matches aren't in by April which is their current estimate, then I'm gonna forget about this game.
 

jojo69

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Sep 13, 2009
Messages
10,510
pretty sure I'm on some sort of blacklist now, almost impossible to get a match, wait times around 10 min, 2 failures in a row common
 
Top