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Maybe we can use the term "Half Physics" ?
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Skirrow said:
Well... HavokFX can't do cloth or fluids yet (cloth's coming apparently), and without significantly changing both the way GPU physics works and the HavokFX API interactive physics isn't really feasible.
But your last point stands - you can't go wrong either way - only people who buy into one or the other can - and yeah that includes me. The reason I bought into AGIEA's PPU is cos it was first, is a brand new piece of hardware and isn't trying to shove new cards into my face with marketing bumf that says their solution is at least 15x "better" than the competitions.
Lemme tell you a story. My best mate went out and bought an x1900XTX on the day it was released. He'd heard all the hype and thought he'd take the plunge. He also heard it was highly overclockable, so he tweaked and tweaked it. Too far it seems. While holding the multimeter to the card he tuned up the core voltage in windows, but his desktop froze. He was so shocked his hand slipped and shorted one of the VRMs causing heart failure by shock. He died before he even got to the hospital - I was in the ambulance all the way. The last thing he said to me was "it should have been stable".
I don't think I'll ever buy an ATi graphics card again.
Menelmarar
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So your friend was "tweaking" his card outside of ATI specifications. And then because he is a clumsy dolt killed it. You blame ATI? lols to you sir, lols to you.MrNasty said:
Just think, if he hadn't broken it he could be playing Oblivion with HDR+AA and be experiencing gaming nirvana!
psychoace said:
If memory serves that was a one off, and to top it out not even based on Havok - it was part of ATi's SDK. So no, HavokFX doesn't support cloth yet, even if ATi does. I'm sure it will come because tbh it's an important and interesting feature (even though you said earlier "big whooptidoo" over on the cellfactor thread).
So, yeah, I could say it slowly for you if you don't get it.
linky for the selective reader.
Menelmarar said:
Dude... It was a joke
- soz, I guess I should have smileyed it up a bit more... Might edit it a bit... Just thought maybe a light humour interlude might be a nice thing - hey, it made you lol at least!Edit: I thought the "it should have been stable" thing was a dead giveaway...
MrNasty said:
The HavokFX API is just the Havok 4 API with GPU acceleration so while it'll take a while for all the features to be accelerated in hardware it will come eventually and a lot sooner than you think. I mean Havok was originally intended as a physics soluton for pre-rendered animation. I.E the film industry, But because it was relatively cpu efficient, the engine was feasible for games and Half Life 2 marked its true break into the games arena. Everyone was raving about Havok when it was in games. No-one could say a bad thing against it. The along comes Agaea with a hardware physics solution. Suddenly Havok is a naughty word.
The thing is. People are saying, for example, that shrapnel from a grenade that doesnt bounce of walls is considered 'effects physics', but the simple truth is that the only difference between so called 'effects physics' (not bouncing off surfaces) and 'true physics' (bouncing off every surface), is simply a case of changing one or two values in the object attributes. The reason most shrapnel doesnt bounce is simply because it was either deemed unneccessary since it wouldnt really be noticed or because it degrades performance too much in software (the latter being more true). Think about it. Did people really care before physics acceleration hardware came out? NO. Did they even notice before Ageia pointed it out? Not really. Its similar to having a single dead pixel at the edge of an LCD display. It doesnt bother you till someone mentions it. Then you cant help but see it.
Physx and HavokFX are like petrol and deisel engines. Both do the same job, both have similar power. They just take different approaches at obtaining it. we're always gonna have people saying one approach is better than the other, but if the effect is the same who really gives a shit?
I
gasoline and diesel, much like a PPU and a GPU do rather different jobs...
have you ever seen a gasoline semi rolling down the road with a trailer?
how many gasoline sports cars have you seen?
each CAN do the job of the other, but sometimes its kinda pathetic.
have you ever seen a gasoline semi rolling down the road with a trailer?
how many gasoline sports cars have you seen?
each CAN do the job of the other, but sometimes its kinda pathetic.
Skirrow said:
Your end point is good but I think more applicable to the baseline PhysX and Havok methods rather than HavokFX and HW PhysX - there's quite a bit more difference between them than Petrol and Diesel, it's more like, say, electric vs petrol: The end result is arguably the same but there is a world of difference in how applicable and capable they are.
But a subtle difference in the history bit: Havok was pushed out of the running by Meqon in the professional circuits (even though it still has a presence there) and didn't actually "do" HL2's physics. It's final application as a game physics middleware was not exactly as a result of its CPU efficiency - initial Havok professional kits were a bit bloated and suffered from accuracy problems - the result? Havok stripped it down and sold it to games companies instead. This was a great move and has resulted in some of the best titles out there now for the PC.
HL2 was designed from the ground up using IPION's framework, which Havok bought shortly before HL2 was released. So HL2 doesn't actually use Havok, just technology patents and IP bought by Havok which then meant HL2 had to have Havok stamped proudly on it.
Havok's version is coming up to 4.0 afaik, nothing's been released with this SDK just yet, and it still doesn't include pseudo-cloth or dynamic fluids support. HavokFX supports (or will, not confirmed yet) some particle fluid models, but not actual dynamic simulations.
Firebat said:
huh... may I ask where you live? because I have seen 0. I know they exist, but there are few and far between. I have never seen a diesel sports car in person.
what I am trying to say, is while a diesel can do what a gas engine can, and vice versa, when it comes to the extreme it doesnt work as well. Its just not practical.
the same goes for the GPU doing the job of a PPU (not that the job position really exists yet) it can be done, but to do it better than a PPU there needs to be a lot of changes, and unless they are making physics processing a primary goal, then I dont see that happening.
InorganicMatter
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I don't even call them physics. I call them "environmental effects." Because that's what they are.
I don't call either real interactive physics...and I won't until they can emulate individual atoms interacting with each other. For now it's a compromise, how many different elements have simulated physics interaction is where it's at.
But...for now, it seems like the ATi will be just fine if it's a left over card from your last round of upgrades. Especially if developers pick up on the sdk for really cool effects.
But...for now, it seems like the ATi will be just fine if it's a left over card from your last round of upgrades. Especially if developers pick up on the sdk for really cool effects.
I think realistic as it's behave realistic in game. But not exactly to a so fine detail a player could not notice. Or do you keep a Cray supercomputer to check the result.
Realism enhancement like Objects brake at hit point. instead of a Fix breakpoint. Like Soldner you shoot in the Corner of a wall and the hole is in the middle.
While it should be in that corner.
Also the size of the hole would be computed by the warheads power.
With DX10 and unified shaders. PhysX could interact more with geometry Vertex shading To generate damage geometry on the fly a realtime.
It must look believable realistic. Not Physical in computational detail to real Physics.
Realism enhancement like Objects brake at hit point. instead of a Fix breakpoint. Like Soldner you shoot in the Corner of a wall and the hole is in the middle.
While it should be in that corner.
Also the size of the hole would be computed by the warheads power.
With DX10 and unified shaders. PhysX could interact more with geometry Vertex shading To generate damage geometry on the fly a realtime.
It must look believable realistic. Not Physical in computational detail to real Physics.
InorganicMatter
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ROFFLECOPTERS!!!
I'd add to the half[ass]ed comment, but it's probably get me a vacation
I'd add to the half[ass]ed comment, but it's probably get me a vacation
Both methods have different capabilities and featuresets - while the uses of HavokFX may be fewer than that of PhysX at this point in time, calling it half-assed is just not constructive.
Come on guys - no dumping for the sake of it... Even though plenty of people do the same thing to PhysX, for the sake of a rational argument the "it sucks cos it sucks" routine has to stop
Come on guys - no dumping for the sake of it... Even though plenty of people do the same thing to PhysX, for the sake of a rational argument the "it sucks cos it sucks" routine has to stop
MrNasty said:Both methods have different capabilities and featuresets - while the uses of HavokFX may be fewer than that of PhysX at this point in time, calling it half-assed is just not constructive.
Come on guys - no dumping for the sake of it... Even though plenty of people do the same thing to PhysX, for the sake of a rational argument the "it sucks cos it sucks" routine has to stop
Agreed
But keep in mind that I kept my comments above the belt
*L*Terra - But I must admit I found it funny
*L*Noone said it sucks cos. You are Mr. NastyMrNasty said:"it sucks cos it sucks" routine has to stop
If it doesn't offload the CPU, it is not anything new (we already have physics in games
)Effects physics is a joke. ---> lol. It is just as much as a last minute solution to a potential market share as GRAW is. Why even discuss it? Nearsighted IMO.
Who doesn't want Ageia to become a real contender and therefore benefit the consumers even further? I think we all know who.
Once upon a time, I wrote this:
You quoted this paragraph independently among others and typed the following in response:cyks said:
26 hours later, you type this:Menelmarar said:
The only one taking notes here should be you. Havok, ATI, and Nvidia do not have a PPU, but a GPU. Go read the FAQ plz. kthxMenelmarar said:
The GPU's job is to process graphics. it pushes the visual spectrum, not the physical one.
PHYSX processes physics... but then again, the CPU can do that as well. Pretty much any scenario given in regards to physx could be coded into the game and utilized without the use of a PPU.
While the PPU is capable of doing some really cool things, it is ultimately dependent on everything else (such as the GPU) to be able to handle it to any worthwhile scale.
That isn't the job of the GPU... The GPU is there for visual effects. Without the GPU there wouldn't be a house period. In theory, a CPU can do the same thing the PPU does with the bricks. The PPU offloads the stress, nothing more.
The PPU will be useful when we can figure out how to really dynamically alter models in game engine, rather than having to try to anticipate such things and animate them. I don't see this happening anytime soon so.... PPU == not worth it.
For example, let's say you have someone take a hammer to a piece of metal. Supposedly if it were following 'true physics' you'd be able to strike it from any point and the PPU would say how the piece of metal should react according to various variables . However, to actually have a visualization of that, you need to render it on the fly, not use a prefabricated model. As of right now, games still rely on premade textures and models, which i personally think is the largest limitation right now. Once we get past that, well, then maybe it'll be PPU worthy.
umm, yeah I kinda rambled there but I hope you get my point.
PHYSX processes physics... but then again, the CPU can do that as well. Pretty much any scenario given in regards to physx could be coded into the game and utilized without the use of a PPU.
While the PPU is capable of doing some really cool things, it is ultimately dependent on everything else (such as the GPU) to be able to handle it to any worthwhile scale.
LuminaryJanitor said:In theory, on a PPU, you can build a house out of individual bricks and have it act (and more importantly, smash
On a GPU, build the same house and you can walk straight through the wall, 'cause the GPU can't inform you that there's something in your way. That's not physics. That's just fucking retarded.
That isn't the job of the GPU... The GPU is there for visual effects. Without the GPU there wouldn't be a house period. In theory, a CPU can do the same thing the PPU does with the bricks. The PPU offloads the stress, nothing more.
The PPU will be useful when we can figure out how to really dynamically alter models in game engine, rather than having to try to anticipate such things and animate them. I don't see this happening anytime soon so.... PPU == not worth it.
For example, let's say you have someone take a hammer to a piece of metal. Supposedly if it were following 'true physics' you'd be able to strike it from any point and the PPU would say how the piece of metal should react according to various variables . However, to actually have a visualization of that, you need to render it on the fly, not use a prefabricated model. As of right now, games still rely on premade textures and models, which i personally think is the largest limitation right now. Once we get past that, well, then maybe it'll be PPU worthy.
umm, yeah I kinda rambled there but I hope you get my point.
Pkirk618
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it would be nice if we could use any older card not being used to drive physics. I have a couple of cards I could see doing the little things in games....wait, I only have one AGP but I'm sure PCIe platforms could do some of the leg work.
Anyway, did I say I love you all today?
Anyway, did I say I love you all today?
Least said:
I would like to se you do 530 mio sphere to sphere collision per second on any CPU!
The PPU is from 30 to 200 times faster than any CPU depending on the task.
General purpose hardware is NOT just as fast a dedicated hardware...
Terra - You need to read up on the topic...
Terra said:I would like to se you do 530 mio sphere to sphere collision per second on any CPU!
The PPU is from 30 to 200 times faster than any CPU depending on the task.
General purpose hardware is NOT just as fast a dedicated hardware...
Terra - You need to read up on the topic...
I never said It could do it as well as a PPU... it would run sluggishly, but it could be done...
This didn't really invalidate my point seeing as there still isn't any practical reason to have a PPU. They are pushing this for games... well, when is it going to significantly change how the game is played? as i said before, being able to apply physics to thousands of little pieces still requires those pieces to be displayed and to be 'created' in the game engine. People speak of what could be without realizing that it isn't some magical thing that allows suddenly to deal with objects at such a depth without considering the realities of the limitations of both the CPU and the GPU. I'd like to see someone to create say, a brick house that would really act like it would in the real world. if the bricks are layed out and put together, if it is struck with something, there is a reasonable chance that if it is enough to topple it, there is enough to say, compress the brick's molecules (dent it) or crack and break in half. Well, how is one going to render that physically on the fly for all those bricks?
Least - you should read up on some other topics like game development, programming, and hardware limitations elsewhere.
Least said:
At ½ FPS...I think I'll pass then
The same way we render all other objects...don't make this into something it's not.
The UE3 engine will be 100% PhysX capable.
Games are in the making, the best analogy I can find is when DX9 card came.
There where no DX9 games, and they didn't show up for a long time.
People still got the DX9 cards.
No hardware, no development, this is common knowlegde...(or should be)..
[QUOTELeast - you should read up on some other topics like game development, programming, and hardware limitations elsewhere.
[/QUOTE]Once back in school(years ago) I did study and graduate programming(Turbo Pascal 7.0, Visual Basic ect.) but I still fail to se where it is that you produced any hardware limitations...except for the CPU?
But thanks for your consern...
But you perhaps think the CPU dosn't got enough to do already, you want to load it with physcis calculations...and have gameplay at ½FPS...
Terra - I can't wait to hear people in 1 or 2 years time...it feels just like the 3Dfx days all over again!
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Love the way this man thinks mostly because it reminds me of myself. It's great to be open minded isn't it? Let them be, we're the ones with the pay off man. You're beatin' a dead horse.ScYcS said:
bboynitrous said:
So you agree with him that the PhysX is doing nothing at the moment?
You do know it's doing a hella lot more than HavokFX, right?
It's doing Eye Candy "physics" and fragment calcuations in explosions in GRAW
It's been used heavily in Cell Factor (wich has been annoced as a release title now), I tried for the first time in a game to shoot cloth, watch torn of bits glide through the air...and act like real cloth....it wasn't the look of the fabric that made me brain say "cloth"...it's was it's movements...
If I had had any bots or other players in the game at that time I would have gotten fragged.
That little piece of cloth gliding through the air had my attention 100%.
Such a little thing...so big an effect.
Or tossing a G-grenade a little to close for comfort..and having to reverse full speed in order not to get dragged in...I like it!
And do you think a sub $100 graphics card will come anywhere near the PPU in raw physics power?
I could go on, but I would like to hear you elborate on those 2 counts.
Terra - The "doing nothing" and "sub $100 graphics card"...
Majin said:What are you taking for this brain problem you seem to have?
That is the WORST... WORST Metaphor I have ever seen!
Seriously though....
Thats like using Corn and Batteries to compare Trees and Fish.
first of all, its not my metaphor. I guess I should have quoted it, because it looks like they edited it out (I cant find it. I was CRITISIZING someone elses metaphore. THEY said that agiea vs havok is like diesel vs gas, and that they are the same thing. I was critisizing, and pointing out that they do a similar task, but in different ways, with different results.
you are missing some of the convo.
Terra said:So you agree with him that the PhysX is doing nothing at the moment?
You do know it's doing a hella lot more than HavokFX, right?
It's doing Eye Candy "physics" and fragment calcuations in explosions in GRAW
It's been used heavily in Cell Factor (wich has been annoced as a release title now), I tried for the first time in a game to shoot cloth, watch torn of bits glide through the air...and act like real cloth....it wasn't the look of the fabric that made me brain say "cloth"...it's was it's movements...
If I had had any bots or other players in the game at that time I would have gotten fragged.
That little piece of cloth gliding through the air had my attention 100%.
Such a little thing...so big an effect.
Or tossing a G-grenade a little to close for comfort..and having to reverse full speed in order not to get dragged in...I like it!
And do you think a sub $100 graphics card will come anywhere near the PPU in raw physics power?
I could go on, but I would like to hear you elborate on those 2 counts.
Terra - The "doing nothing" and "sub $100 graphics card"...
Ageia's card is a peice of crap. It is poorly made from what I hear is funded by terrorist. Ageia sounds a lot like a terrorist group I have heard of. I think we are funding our own distruction by buying this crap. Also maybe when they get all there money and we all have this card they will send out of demo of how they will destroy us because they can do that because there card will be able to handle the rubble and particles that are needed to go into full detail. Ageia = A Gang of Electric Ion Assult. I think we should fear them.
(hey I thought if you can spill bs based off of just what you think then hell I might as well do it to.)
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