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Mac vs PC - Questions

M

mokkapoop

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
1,155
Let me start off by saying that I am a die hard, balls to the wall PC fan. I used a Mac once in college and didn't like it, but that was before OS 10. Today, we see that the Mac is coming back in a huge way. The commercials, the facts, the new technology that Apple brings to the table is very interesting.

My question to everyone is "what makes a Mac a Mac?"

Apparently based on reviews, the new Macs outperform PC's by a grand scale. They run applications better (and with the vidoes of Office 2008 for Mac coming out), running games better (apparently can run Crisis flawlessly) and several ways that a PC just can't keep up with.

When I look at the config of an Apple machine, I always see slower specs than what a PC has, so there has to be something Apple is doing to use the architecture in a completely different way. Well.....HOW?

I don't mind doing some reading, but I want to understand what the main differences are and how Apple manages to use things better. Any info would be great.
 
There is a limited set of hardware available for macs, this allows them to optimize the code to run well on the various architectures that apple offers.

Similar to how games run so well on consoles that have very limited resources (nintendo 64, ps2 etc.)
 
because with a PC there are hundreds of different chipsets, processors, memory configurations and graphics cards. With that many variables you can come up with millions of combinations.

Taking a look at Apples current line up you can see that there are probably only about 20 different configurations, and about 6 chipsets to work with.
 
because PC's give you the freedom to buy what YOU want, not what Jobs thinks you u should buy / need, which means alot more support for drivers / software.

the new technology that Apple brings to the table is very interesting.
Click to expand...

hardly new tech, they just package it all nicely, infect they tend to be BEHIND in computer tech with vid cards and processors due to the maybe twice yearly upgrade schedules they run
 
MrGuvernment said:
because PC's give you the freedom to buy what YOU want, not what Jobs thinks you u should buy / need, which means alot more support for drivers / software.



hardly new tech, they just package it all nicely, infect they tend to be BEHIND in computer tech with vid cards and processors due to the maybe twice yearly upgrade schedules they run
Click to expand...

Well if Steve Jobs is configuring the Mac's to out perform a PC, then apparently he is doing something right. Sure we have the freedom to purchase what we want, but as stated above, with so many configurations to choose from, it does not allow for applications, games and what not to be tweaked to perform like an Apple product.

It just seems to me that Apple sure is doing something right.

Also, did you happen to catch the demos and videos for Macbook Air?
 
As everyone has said, Apple's vertical control over hardware and software plays an enormous factor in creating the Apple user experience.

However, OS X does hold up very well on its own. Architecturally speaking, it is quite a bit more elegant than Windows in many respects, both in its interface and under the hood. Structurally speaking, there is also something to be said in using the proven open standards and technologies provided by the underlying Unix / Free BSD layer that the user space sits upon, and by the core Mach kernel (which has been in development since 1983) that the Free BSD layer sits upon.

Of course, the existence of Apple's current cache is far more due to product design and marketing than to comparable technical merit. Intel released a special Merom form factor for the Macbook Air not because it has a superior OS or a superior chip set, RAM, etc. It's all due to the fact that Apple is Apple and that Steve is an industry giant yet again, and this is all due to design and marketing.

My personal take on Apple is that they make the best damn laptops money can buy. Period. I have owned three Apple portables over the last eight years, and I don't ever foresee buying a Windows laptop in the future. However, I also would never buy a Mac desktop, as what would I do with my hardware hobby then?
 
Only morons buy macs.

"It's a hip PC" LOLZ, ROFLZ, LMFAOZ!!!!!

You are at the mercy of Apple, no real variety, no competition, and you know you're getting price gouged.
 
WildMonkey said:
Only morons buy macs.

"It's a hip PC" LOLZ, ROFLZ, LMFAOZ!!!!!

You are at the mercy of Apple, no real variety, no competition, and you know you're getting price gouged.
Click to expand...

You also do not have the problems that a PC does (crashing, blue screens, etc).
 
mokkapoop said:
XP never crashes? Where have I been?
Click to expand...

Who said never? They do crash, but no that often, unless you are a moron (like a mac user) that doesn't know how to use them.

And Macs are so stable and good, that why all industrialized civilization uses Mac servers.
*so much sarcasm it's crashing my PC*
 
mokkapoop said:
You also do not have the problems that a PC does (crashing, blue screens, etc).
Click to expand...

Bwhahahaaa...
That was hillarious.

I've seen the Mac OS interface text wigg out just from installing a printer. Mac are not infallable by any measure.

And XP rarley crashes on me. I cant even remember the last time I blue-screened or even had to restart because of a problem.

But hey, I guess it's good to see that Apple's marketing team is good enough to fool people into thinking their OS is so much better. :rolleyes:
Yey for commercials that almost never say why you should buy a Mac, but just why PCs are inferior to their product. Most pompus commercials ever.
 
It's really sad that people shell out thousands of dollars to have a computer that matches their mp3 player....

LOL!

I rulz da iPodz wurld!
 
.plists are constantly prone to corruption. Translation is that even Macs aren't idiot proof. G5's at my University Lab were frequently found with their fans running at 100%. That's an obvious sign of an occurring or about-to-occur kernel panic.

And if you remember how explorer.exe used to crash in XP Vanilla (pre-SP1)? OSX Dock frequently can crash, and boy does it take long to Force Quit. Think of the length of time it takes to Quit a fussy program in Windows, and it's about the same amount of frustration.

The only time I've experienced extreme hard-locks (based on software) is a fussy program like FF3beta (maxes to 100% upon closure--probably a bug), or other beta stuff. In general, I haven't crashed since moving to SP1, and that was back in 2002. 6 years of stable computing means I have little reason to listen to the Job's powerful and debilitating RDF.
 
Nope I would never buy a Mac.

If you want the same level of variety in hardware and software, price competition, tech innovation, and support as a PC then wait 10-20 years and hope that market shares for PCs and Macs are about the same, then maybe you can debate whether to buy a PC or Mac.
 
WildMonkey said:
Nope I would never buy a Mac.

If you want the same level of variety in hardware and software, price competition, tech innovation, and support as a PC then wait 10-20 years and hope that market shares for PCs and Macs are about the same, then maybe you can debate whether to buy a PC or Mac.
Click to expand...

Done trolling? :rolleyes:
 
WildMonkey said:
Nope I would never buy a Mac.

If you want the same level of variety in hardware and software, price competition, tech innovation, and support as a PC then wait 10-20 years and hope that market shares for PCs and Macs are about the same, then maybe you can debate whether to buy a PC or Mac.
Click to expand...

You really think this will ever happen? It's like waiting for water to turn purple.
 
mokkapoop said:
You really think this will ever happen? It's like waiting for water to turn purple.
Click to expand...

Then why on Earth would you want to buy a Mac? If they were twice as fast and half the price of a PC, then I MIGHT endure not having the same variety as a PC. But they are not, nor will they be.
 
I have never used a Mac but have thought about going over.

Be that as it may, I am now a Vista Business user on a mobile computer and have not had a single BSOD, crash, etc. Once or twice my video card drivers stopped responding only because my card wasn't fully supported by the game I was playing at the time.

Overall, Vista (yes, Vista) has impressed me and I can never see paying more money to get equal (or worse) performance.

Plus, can Macs really play Crisis on full settings flawlessly???
 
I shall be the voice of reason in this topic...

A Mac is like a game console. It is a device, not a platform. It is not intended to run games or any old hardware/software, and Apple has no problem telling you to go elsewhere for that. Just like a game console is not made to run Microsoft Windows. This is what helps their stability: quality control is able to be controlled much tighter.

That being said, the amount of software available to Macs has increased recently. Where there used to only be profession-specific software, a lot of open source software now operates on all platforms: Windows/MacOS/nix.

Mac's "security" derives from it's BSD roots. It runs the standardized Unix elevation system that all *nix systems use: nothing is allowed to run at an elevated level without administrator privileges. Just like modern-day Linux, it doesn't matter how full of holes the system's security is, everything still has to go through the "front door," which only you can open, in order to cause damage. Unlike pre-Vista Windows versions, there simply is no "back door" to come through. That being said, security is still mostly up to you. If you install version 0.0.0.0.0.1 alpha of "Super Cool Stick it to Microsoft Open Source Paint," expect stability problems. If you are foolish enough to give your administrator password to a fishy program, expect viruses and trojans.

So then, why are Macs gaining popularity? For three simple reasons:
  • This appliance can do everything that 99% of the population uses a computer for: Internet browsing, email writing, and word processing.
  • Security is greatly helped thanks to the Unix privilege elevation system.
  • Instability is aided due to the extreme hardware control measures Apple takes.

Macs aren't for everyone, and that's fine. There's no reason to bash them baselessly because they don't fill your needs.

Now, before you flame me, take a good hard look at my GRUB prompt:

grub.jpg
 
That's a great analogy. The problem is that Apple loves to compare it's appliance to open hardware systems (the PC) repeatedly. To say it's comparing apples to oranges...the pun is simply delicious.
 
I agree, great job describing it.

I'm a computer programmer, and I can't imagine me ever owning a "computer" that behaves like a NES (lol). That's why I bash those that buy Macs because it's painful to think that the computer industry is leaning towards people who only want to write text messages and listen to mp3s.
 
WildMonkey said:
I agree, great job describing it.

I'm a computer programmer, and I can't imagine me ever owning a "computer" that behaves like a NES (lol). That's why I bash those that buy Macs because it's painful to think that the computer industry is leaning towards people who only want to write text messages and listen to mp3s.
Click to expand...

They don't write emails?
 
Markyip1 said:
My personal take on Apple is that they make the best damn laptops money can buy. Period. I have owned three Apple portables over the last eight years, and I don't ever foresee buying a Windows laptop in the future. However, I also would never buy a Mac desktop, as what would I do with my hardware hobby then?
Click to expand...

I hope you do realize that Apple Macbooks are made by Asus, and the Mac Book Pro is made by Quanta (I think ). Apple doesn't make any hardware, they just design it and ship it off for another company to build. It all uses the same chips. I don't see how Apple can "make the best laptops" when all they do is design it and give it to someone else to build.

WildMonkey said:
I'm a computer programmer, and I can't imagine me ever owning a "computer" that behaves like a NES (lol). That's why I bash those that buy Macs because it's painful to think that the computer industry is leaning towards people who only want to write text messages and listen to mp3s.
Click to expand...

I'm a CS major, and I couldn't agree more. To top it off, Apple is so strongly against third party developers. If Apple ever did have control, it would be a very ugly world with no software innovations at all (other than the ones Apple makes).

Personally, I don't care much for Macs at all. My sister has one, and they have made tons of obnoxious changes to shorcuts that I can not stand. For example, pressing the home key will not take you to the beginning of a line, like in Linux or Windows, but it will take you to the beginning of the previous word. Shortcuts are a disaster. Sometimes they use control, sometimes they use the Apple key. It leaves you guessing what key combination to press for the shortcut.

OS X also loves to take things you use, and spread them all over the screen. For example, when you're using firefox on an OS other than OS X and an alert comes up, it shows it in the middle of the screen, so you can easily click it. With OS X, it pops up in the top by the address bar. It seems like it's a minor thing, but it's obnoxious.

I constantly use combinations of shit+arrow keys+home+end+page up+page down, and all of those keys do not work worth a sh*t in OS X. Apple has ruined them all.

These sound small, but they're all usability problems that affect almost EVERYTHING I do when on a computer. It all adds up to being a very, very annoying process.

Ugh, and don't get me started on that obnoxious trackpad. In Firefox, you can middle click a link and it opens up in a new tab. I have my Kubuntu set up so a two finger click is the same as middle click on my touchpad (it's on a laptop). It's great.

To open up a window in a new tab in OSX on firefox, I have to either press some modifier key on the keyboard and click, open up the menu, and click on "Open in new tab", or I have to drag and drop the link onto the tab area (which also works in windows, but arrogant Mac users think it's a mac exclusive).

Then of course, there's the whole price factor. I have an Asus w3j laptop I bought over a year ago. It's about 1,000 dollars now. My sister's macbook does have an extra gig of ram, BUT it has no burner, no memory card reader, no Audio DJ thing, same processor, and instead of the x1600 mobility, it has integrated intel. It's sad, because hers cost more than mine, and she got it almost a year later. What's even more sad, is that I have an Asus, and macbooks are made by Asus, so it's not all that different in the end.

I know Apple is praised for their GUIs, but I honestly can not tolerate it. You can set up kubuntu with Kiba-Dock (make sure to compile it on your own, the ones in the repo are ancient), install compiz-fusion, and you can still have that stupid menu bar on the top which works as long as you're using KDE apps. The only difference is that you have complete control over everything.

But I also can't stand the Apple philosophy. It's saying "give up your freedom and we'll keep you safe from viruses and crashes" which is somewhat arguable to begin with. It's just a company with a terrible philosophy, and the success of Apple really fits in with the atmosphere of America and the whole "we'll give you our freedoms as long as we don't see another 9/11".
 
For someone like myself, I'd go PC in a heartbeat. But for folks like my parents, I'd give them a Mac. My mom barely knows how to turn on a pc, and my dad just uses his 8 year old Compaq for internet surfing and quicken. This machine has a 500mhz processor and 256mb of Ram, I think it was SDRAM at that, and I put xp on it, although it came with ME. *shudder*
I've been begging him to even get one of the cheap Best Buy computers for $300 or so, just so it doesn't take 10 minutes to load xp or anything else for that matter. When he prints something, if you move the mouse, the printer stops.

From a end user standpoint, it's just a simpler setup. Because PCs fill up quickly at the labs in my school, I go to the Mac labs, and I like them for general internet and word processing uses...however, I play video games and like to mess around with software, etc. Since Macs are so very proprietary, I'd stick with PCs.

Basically. To each their own and purpose.
 
sdlvx said:
*snip*
Click to expand...

Every single thing you dislike translates to "it's different, so I don't like it." You're a CS major, which means you've are developing or have already developed "old fart" computer mentality: you don't like it when computers change. You're not alone, as a EE major, I've had to fight it quite ferociously too. :p

To the OP, this was really not the place to ask something like this. Apple's computer go against everything in a forum like this. People here (myself included) like to push stuff as hard as we can; it's an honor to break 500MHz on your FSB, and people in the OS forum compete to see how small they can get their Windows XP install CD. Apple computers are made for people who are just tired of PCs. When I'm at work and school, I'm all Windows. But when I get home, all I want to do is browse the internet and reply to my email in peace. That's why I use OS X Leopard at home. I like to call it an "internet communications device," because that's really where it shines.

As for Apple's stupid commercials...yeah, they're just that: stupid. :p
 
I've used Mac's since the Apple IIe days (around 1983) and PC's since they first came on the scene around the same time I think (or at least when the Mac Classic came out). I am in the Design/Print industry, but like my games and also video editing. I have used Macs and PC's at work for the past 13 years and I have a PC at home. I switched to PC at home about 10 years ago when I was getting into web development.

A lot of the arguments one way or the other are subjective.... I like this or that.... a bit like saying Paris Hilton is beutiful, some like me would disagree but either side can argue to the cows come home but you can't really 'convince' someone either way. So this is just what I have experienced over the years.

Certainly in the last few years, the benefits the Mac has over the PC is a smaller margin. I've used both systems for Graphics and the Mac always felt smooth, stable, responsive and fast.... and also even the same application on both systems, the application on the Mac just felt right, a little hard to explain but the PC version seemed clunky (Like Freehand, Photoshop etc). Adobe CS3 suite is certainly a great step up on the PC (apart from all the install problems :p )

Web development on the mac was a nightmare. Fireworks and Dreamweaver were slow and buggy on the mac. So I switched to PC, I was also designing SQL sites si needed a windows box. Now, I'm using mostly MySQL which I have running off our Xserve. In fact, I'm on my Mac-Pro now which I mostly have it booted up in Windows XP Pro. I need a mac because most of the design work we do is on Mac and you'll get font issues trying to open files up on the PC unless you use OpenType fonts or convert to paths. I'm not sure if Mac OS Leapard is diferent, but I've boot up in XP using bootcamp (OS Tiger) and XP only sees the 2GB ram of my 5GB total although I'm sure that's an XP limit.

My mac pro (2 Dual core 2.6GB Xeons running XP pro) seems slower than my system at home (see sig). I imported a sql file into MySQL and it took about 20 minutes, on my PC at home it took about 2. I know there's many factors involved, but it seems to be an unusual diference... perhaps Leopard's windows boot system is better and has better drivers.

I have a freind here in Weta, Wellignton (NZ in the film industry) who says that the PC's have even caught up and superseeding the Macs for video editing as the Apps get better, although there are Mac/PC advocates there also.

MacPros are nice but you can build a pretty high end system for the same price for sure.

My old man wanted a laptop for internet and downloading photos off his camera and a bit of photoshop work, so I suggested he got an ibook. Easy to use, no hassles, TRUE plug and play, system doesn't get clogged up with junk like the PC (Not that a PC should, but I'm talking about the layman user ;) )

Another friend wanted a laptop for video editing and he wanted a Mac, I suggested a PC.... it'll be ceaper amd more software available. Sure, iMovie is great, but as you get more experienced, you'll be wanting to get into the serious stuff.

Macs and PC's may crash but shouldn't. My PC at home has crashed maybe a max of 4 times in the last year, My mac maybe 2. I hate anything that causes a crash so if there's a hint of a problem, I fix it. It is generally a third party app or faulty hardware that'll cause a crash, not the 'Mac' or 'PC'. I think there's just a lot more buggy software on the PC and too many variables in Hardware which is a pro or con depending on how you look at it.

You are limited in what you can upgrade on a mac, but in my experience, the mac hardware doesn't date as fast as the PC depending on the use. My old mans G3 ibook is still going strong and not a bad quick little laptop.... my Compaq E500 is a paperweight :p
In saying that though, if I want to upgrade my CPU on my PC as it is, becuase I currently have a 939 socket I'll need a new Mobo, which will mean I need new RAM.

Only time I use a mac now is at work when I'm not doing web-dev. I use a PC exclusively at home and all my gaming in on PC. If I were to get a computer for just internet, email and a bit of home dvd authorship the only thing that would keep me from a mac is price.

Anyway, here's how I see it:

Mac Pros:
Ease of use
Stability and dificult for amature users to stuff the system. Not a lot of Junkware.
World wide warranty up to five years on hardware
Pretty stylish and the OS I reckon is better than Vista, certainly uses less RAM.
Virus threat virtually non-existant (unless running Windows)
Micro$oft hasn't got you by the short and curlies....unless you run linux ;)

PC Pros:
Cheap
Build your own
Availability of software and hardware
Amount of Periphials and hardware addons
Apple hasn't got you by the short and curlies.
 
This debate is kind of pointless everyone has their own preferences, there are guys out there that do everything from a command prompt, there are people that just use their computer exactly how it came from the factory, there are people that tweak until there is nothing left to tweak, there are people that try to make windows look like osX etc etc etc...

Fact of the matter is that everyone finds what works for them. I am also a CS major (graduating in may... yay!) and I went completely cold turkey on windows when vista rc2 came out.

I got my macbook, sold off all my PC stuff (except an old desktop I use as a server with ubuntu and a trial of server 2003 just to get hands on experience with it)

I have not looked back yet, I do my c++ coding in xCode, java in eclipse and mySQL / php with text wrangler. That workflow works perfect for me, and I could not be happier. There were plenty of shortcuts to learn, but thats the same with any system, once you know the shortcuts its a breeze.

I have XP sp2 installed in parallels but I never use it unless I want the "wow-factor" from people that never used os-x.

I got to a pretty small university of about 5500 students, so you start seeing alot of familiar faces in comp sci classes, and out of the people that I talk to a pretty big percentage have actually switched to mac laptops for class use. However, in the case of desktops most of them still have a windows machine that they use for gaming / tinkering / modding / trying to break etc.

Personally I never looked back on my decision to go cold turkey on the Windows world, will I be back? maybe someday, but don't hold your breath.
 
This is how I see it:

Macs are cool, but Windows is just more useful, IMO. People who grew up on Windows generally stay on Windows, and vice versa. I think it is more an issue of migration then an issue of actual advantages vs disadvantages.

The OS X interface itself is just awesome though.
 
for the most part i use windows, but i'm not necessarily a big fan of it. i do like os x a whole lot, but i hate the fact you need to overpay for an outdated system just to use it. and the compatibility, virus, etc issues you tend to avoid when using macs, just really doesn't apply to me and probably a lot of people on this forum as well. i keep my pc/drivers up to date, i use a stellar a/v (nod32) and browse the web safely (firefox w/ noscript). pretty much, i love having a pc, i enjoy playing the latest and greatest games in all its glory and i enjoy updating my hardware when i want to. and when i get bored of my vista environment i just boot up into ubuntu :D
 
Well you do have to look at it from a use standpoint.

People who are educated, like us engineers that actually need a machine that will be used to actually do some real work probably need a PC.

On the other hand, if you are someone with let's say just a GED and only use computers as your personal viral video storage facility then Macs are better suited for you.

Unfortunately the latter kind is the most prevalent, I hope I don't live to see the day when computers are replaced by iPods on steroids.
 
I find it hard to believe that Macs play Crysis better than PCs, because Macs are now essentially PCs made by Apple with EFI and a TPM chip that allows them to run OS X without hacking it. You'd have to dual-boot Windows and use that, with Windows drivers, in order to run Crysis, and then there's no reason why it would run differently to a PC with the same specification.
 
WildMonkey said:
Well you do have to look at it from a use standpoint.

People who are educated, like us engineers that actually need a machine that will be used to actually do some real work probably need a PC.

On the other hand, if you are someone with let's say just a GED and only use computers as your personal viral video storage facility then Macs are better suited for you.

Unfortunately the latter kind is the most prevalent, I hope I don't live to see the day when computers are replaced by iPods on steroids.
Click to expand...

Good lord you're an ass. :rolleyes:
 
I can't be kind about this.

Apple was on the verge of bankruptcy (deservingly) when a bunch of pre-teens started coughing up hundreds of dollars for a bunch of "stylish" flash memory cards labeled iPods.
 
WildMonkey said:
I can't be kind about this.

Apple was on the verge of bankruptcy (deservingly) when a bunch of pre-teens started coughing up hundreds of dollars for a bunch of "stylish" flash memory cards labeled iPods.
Click to expand...

Ok....enough of the IPOD crap. I as well as MANY others here on the forums are owners of these devices and love them. They are simple, durable and sleek. Ipod's are NOT what saved Apple and you know it.
 
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