Low-end MIDI controller keyboard for a newbie

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GHarris

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jul 20, 2006
Messages
178
Hi folks,

I'm thinking about putting my spare time to better use by learning to play the piano. There's a problem with this cunning plan, however. I don't have a piano, nor do I have room for one even if I went out and bought one.

I'm thinking of getting a simple midi controller keyboard to use with my PC. I'd put it on my computer desk, and listen to myself playing using the headphones I use with my PC. This has the added benefit of making sure that others aren't distracted by the sound of me practising like they would be if I were playing a real piano.

I don't want to spend too much money given that I'm only just starting and have no idea if I will get fed up with it after a few weeks. I intend to keep at it, but I don't want to spend too much money in case I change my mind. From my initial googling it seems like some of these devices can be very expensive, and the cost comes from build quality, pro-musician features (which I don't care about, I'm literally only interested in using the keyboard keys) and the kind of "key action" used.

I'm looking to spend £50-£100 (though I'm slightly reluctant about the higher end of that range since I don't know how much use I am going to get out of this purchase). It seems like, in this price bracket, the key action is always velocity based rather than something more "real-piano-like". A few models I've looked at initially are:

M-Audio Keyrig 49
http://www.maudio.co.uk/products/en_gb/KeyRig49.html
I can find it for a little over £50 in online shops. Perhaps it is a bit "too" cheap, in terms of how the keys feel in use (and perhaps in general build quality)? Though I kind of like the fact that it isn't covered in bells and whistles. I don't need fancy functions that a pro musician might use.

E-MU Xboard 49
http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp?category=532&subcategory=533&product=13558
Seems to be right around the £100 mark. The reason I noticed it is because it seems to be reputed to have a very nice key action in its price bracket. It also seems to have other fancy functions that I don't care about though. The price is right on the limit of what I'd be willing to consider so I'm wondering if it is worthwhile for my uses.

Behringer UMX61
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/UMX61.aspx
I think I can just squeeze a 61-key version on my desk, and this one's under £100. Not sure about build quality and key action though.

Any advice or ideas? Am I completely barking up the wrong tree here?

(Apologies if this post is slightly outside the remit of this forum, searching didn't bring up much similar discussion)
 
personally i'd take up learning music theory if you don't have the room for an actual instrument, as for what size, you should at least get a 61, preferrably a 76 if not an 88.

obviously that changes some things, you might be better off just buying one of the cheap casio's that bestbuy/target/etc. carry.

also, a midi controller is a waste of time unless there's a specific VST/DAW you want to control, if you're looking to just play, you'd be better off spending that money on something that has everything built in.
 
Well, kinda depends on what you are after in terms of learning to play piano. If you just want to learn some music and to play a keyboard instrument, then you are probably fine. If your goal is really learning the piano, then this may not be the way to go. Part of the problem is that cheap keyboards are going to feature unweighted, spring action keys. Now that's fine, but they don't feel like a real piano. So you spend all you time learning on that and then go to play the real deal and all of a sudden things will feel wrong.

This isn't an insurmountable problem, of course, you can relearn anything, but it is something to be aware of. If you get a better keyboard that uses hammer action keys, it'll do a pretty good job approximating the feel of a real piano.

Now also to think about is how you are going to get sound. MIDI controllers like those don't have any synthesizers in them. All they do is send MIDI data to another device. So you need a synthesizer to play anything. That can be a physical unit, though that is likely to be a bit costly, or it can be your computer. If it is your computer, you'll need to make sure that you either have a synth you want to use, buy one, or that one is included with the keyboard. All the ones you listed seem to include synth software of some kind, but I don't know anything about the quality of it.

The synth you use can make a big difference in the sound. If you like I can post some demos of what a piano sounds like with different sample sets I have. It can sound anywhere from fake and tinny to extremely realistic.

Now computer based synthesis presents another problem and that's latency. If you want to use your computer to play the sounds, you'll need to make sure you have a soundcard, CPU and harddrive (if using a disk based sampler) that can handle low latency sound. Latency is important when you are doing live performance because it'll be real confusing if you don't hear a sound right when you hit a key.

The cheap keyboard idea from a store like Target is something else you can think about, but there are problems with that as well. The upside is that it is likely to be quite economical, and it is an all in one unit. It'll be a keyboard, synthesizer, amp and speakers in a single unit. The downside is build quality is kinda cheap, the sound sucks, and a bigger concern is that it may not be velocity sensitive.

Good keyboards can tell how hard the key is pressed, and good synthesizers will respond accordingly. This is how a real piano works: Press a key harder, get a louder sound. That's actually where the name comes from. They were originally called pianofortes because they could play dynamics (piano means soft, forte means loud) as opposed to a harpsichord which couldn't.

Well if you learn on a simple keyboard where any keypress produces sound at the same level, you will probalby learn bad playing habits and have some trouble on a real piano.
 
Try to look for a used Casio Privia series. - 88 keys, some of the best weighted action in the lower budget, light weight.

These are not Casio 'toys', rather, really good digital pianos for the price. They shouldn't be too expensive.

But since you don't have the room.. I guess look for a 'toy' casio piano, or a yamaha one.

Some models include: Yamaha YPT-210/310/410. Don't know about the lower grade casio's. The latter two are touch sensitive.
 
Thanks for your responses. I expect I come across as extremely ignorant and that's probably because I am xD.

The reason I looked at the MIDI controllers was because I imagined that they'd be the smallest, cheapest solution that would fit my needs. I have a PC, admittedly a fairly old one but I'll be replacing it with a Nehalem monster soon, which I can use it with. I have headphones to plug into the PC for listening to what I play. I intend for this setup to be used purely for my own personal enjoyment, I don't intend to play for anyone else (unless I ever become good at it, but that's getting far too hypothetical for my liking). So the fact that a MIDI controller keyboard doesn't have it's own speakers, or LCD display, or whatever else might be useful that I'm ignorant of, seemed like a good "fit" to my needs. I think my desk could only just accommodate a 61-key keyboard and if it had bits and pieces like speakers making it wider than it already is then it might not fit.

One thing I noticed about the all-in-one "digital keyboards" I've glanced at, such as, say, this:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Yamaha-YPT200-K-Portable-Keyboard-Full/dp/B000RT9MIK
Is that they don't have any sensitivity to how hard or soft you hit the keys. A keypress is a keypress, and that's that. The MIDI controller keyboards in the same price range, i.e. the price range I'm considering, do tend to have some kind of sensitivity to how fast you're hitting a key - "velocity-sensitive" seems to be the buzzword (though I understand it's inferior to what you get on more expensive models so it still isn't really like a real piano). I imagined that this might be important somehow, but perhaps it's superfluous for a total beginner such as myself? Anyhow it seemed that because I wasn't paying for speakers or other gubbins I don't need, the MIDI controller keyboards were "better" as keyboards than the models like the one I linked above, for a given price.

Since I'm just starting from scratch and don't know whether I'll lose interest over time or whether I'll really like it and keep playing and getting more serious about it, I didn't want to spend too much money on an instrument to begin with. Which is why my price range is what it is. If I wanted a more serious instrument later, I'd buy it then in the knowledge that the purchase would be worthwhile. Given what you've both said, I suppose I should aim for the best 61-key device I can find for under £100.

My current, old PC is a Win XP machine with an Athlon XP 3000+, a gig of ram and an Audigy 2 ZS soundcard. Regarding the comment about "latency", I vaguely heard that the Audigy 2 supports ASIO which as I (vaguely!) understand it is a means to eliminate latency for sound input devices such as this. If I couldn't get Creative's own ASIO to work, however, I figured I could use ASIO4ALL as a workaround and think more carefully about it when choosing the soundcard for my next PC.

I don't know what synth software I would use yet. I imagined I'd find something to suit me when I got around to looking. Is that likely to be difficult? I'm willing to take your word that some synthesisers might sound terrible but post the examples if you like :)
 
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i still stand by the notion that you should grab one of the keyboards from bestbuy/target/etc.

while they're not velocity-sensitive, you'll be able to develope a sense of ear-hand coordination, running a computer will create all sorts of problems in that sense, accents and dynamics can be fixed much more easily than bad timing.

asio4all will allow you to reduce your latency but it will may still not be enough.
 
Mavvok, Best Buy occasionally carries good piano's too, so he might get confused. The Casio PX-120/PX-320 and I think some high end Yamaha's too are occasionally there. Those are good digital pianos.

Seriously... don't bother with anything that's not velocity sensitive.

How much is the Yamaha NP-30 for you? It retails for $299 USD, not sure how much it would be in pounds over there. It is a great budget piano, 76 keys, partially weighted keys, and great sound through headphones. Still no one would recommend a piano without fully-weighted hammer keys, but this has PARTIAL weighted (still very light synth action). Fully weighted hammer keys are vital, because if you decide you like piano, in the future you would like to move on to an acoustic or higher-end digital piano. These have weighted keys. Going from partially weighted/not weighted --> weighted, will be completely different. Your technique will have to change.

If you can't spring for that... which is a bit better than a toy, then you can only go for 'toys' lol.

Yamaha YPT-310, or maybe there's a 61 key M-Audio controller some where?

I'm sorry but your options are pretty limited at that price range.. piano's are expensive I know, but it is worth it!
 
OK, so I guess I'm going to have to spend either at the upper end of my original price range or slightly above it.

I'm seeing the Yamaha NP-30 priced at around £170 online, at a glance.

Since you suggested it, I took a look at M-Audio's range again. There is a 61-key semi-weighted keyboard for pretty much bang-on £100, the
Keystation 61es. This one is very tempting for me, as it's the largest that would be likely to fit on my desk and is unexpectedly cheap.

Blowing the whole idea wide open, if I were to go for a "proper" fully-weighted midi controller keyboard I suppose I would choose something similar to the Keystation Pro 88, which would seem to cost about £250. And I'd have to find somewhere to put it xD. I'm guessing that's an extremely good price for the features it has so I imagine I won't find an 88-key fully-weighted/hammer action keyboard for less than that.

(the reason I mentioned M-Audio products there is simple laziness - if I decide on which route to go down I will probably take a look at what the competitors offer but this gave me a quick easy glance at the kind of stuff available and the price).

As far as my price range is concerned it all comes down to a compromise between quality and the chance that I will use it long enough (and ever get good enough for it to shine) to justify the price I pay. I'm still leaning towards buying something that will tide me over reasonably as a novice and then, if I decide I want to really commit, I can buy something expensive further down the line. Which would point me towards getting the Keystation 61es for £100. Gah, I dunno. Something like the Yamaha NP-30 is halfway in price between the Keystation 61es and the Keystation Pro 88 so I'd be paying almost as much as I would for a "proper" instrument but if I ever got really good I'd still (presumably?) want to replace it with something better.

Mavvok, could you give me any kind of estimate on the magnitude of the latencies I would encounter, with and without ASIO support, in milliseconds? I'd like to get an idea of the size of the problem.

Thanks very much for your help so far guys. Any thoughts on my latest ramblings?
 
No.

Sorry but M-Audio is NOT good if you want to spend that much (250 pounds). They are great at speakers and such, but not this, compared to other pianos. The most recommended budget digital piano is the PX-120. 88 keys, hammer graded action, pretty good sound, and better than Yamaha's graded action in this price range. The step-up is is the PX-320, has an SD card slot, midi in/out line in/out, all the good stuff.. exact same piano with more features. (the px-120 has MIDI too).

There is also another model, If you want to stay around ~$299 USD to compete with the Yamaha NP-30. Casio CDP-100 and CDP-200. These are far better than the Yamaha though, they have 88 keys and hammer action. I'm not sure if the hammer action is as good as the PX (privia) line.

Your best budget choice would be the PX-120 (going in at 450$-550$ USD), and a decent budget purchase would be the CDP-100 at $399 USD. The Yamaha equivalent in the PX-120, is the Yamaha P85 ($599). It's good too, in my opinion touch isn't as good as the PX-120.

So pretty much, if you want budget pianos, Casio is far better than Yamahas. Going up the latter, Yamaha/Roland/Kawai control the game.

I have a PX-120, don't need the PX-320 features. I do plan on hooking up midi, and using software piano sounds for even better sound.

EDIT: Read more of your post. Yes, if you go the proper 88 key (Casio PX-120, can't speak how sturdy the CDP-100 is), it will last you a LONG time. It has great in-built sounds but you will soon realize that the sound of the piano's don't matter, if you get bored of them, hook them up through midi and be in heaven piano-sound wise. It's the piano touch action that matters the most. People have cited the Casio PX line as having "better action than Yamaha's 3x the price). I can't comment if this is true, but that's PRETTY good.... so this piano can last you a very long time.

If/when you decide to upgrade to something with better touch and better inbuilt sounds, the PX-120 can be used as a stage piano if you ever need to gig. At 25 pounds, it's ideal for that situation.

M-audio's are spongy feel touch action, and are not good.
 
How did we go from the OP's 50-100 pounds to 250-300 pounds?

I mean, the OP doesn't even know if piano is in his/her future. Would it be better to start off with something like the Casio WK110? 76 keys, semi-weighted and close to 100 pounds?
 
450 said:
How did we go from the OP's 50-100 pounds to 250-300 pounds?

I mean, the OP doesn't even know if piano is in his/her future. Would it be better to start off with something like the Casio WK110? 76 keys, semi-weighted and close to 100 pounds?
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Because of this?

"OK, so I guess I'm going to have to spend either at the upper end of my original price range or slightly above it.

Blowing the whole idea wide open, if I were to go for a "proper" fully-weighted midi controller keyboard"

.... I'm more or less giving him ideas of instead of buying a crappy keyboard/toy, to invest into something more durable with more of a piano imitation.


Weighted action is vital... that's all I can say. 88 keys is also pretty important but not as vital as weighted action. Partially weighted is garbage too. This is my opinion though.
 
Adreneline said:
Because of this?

"OK, so I guess I'm going to have to spend either at the upper end of my original price range or slightly above it.

Blowing the whole idea wide open, if I were to go for a "proper" fully-weighted midi controller keyboard"

.... I'm more or less giving him ideas of instead of buying a crappy keyboard/toy, to invest into something more durable with more of a piano imitation.


Weighted action is vital... that's all I can say. 88 keys is also pretty important but not as vital as weighted action. Partially weighted is garbage too. This is my opinion though.
Click to expand...


quit beating around the bush and just tell him to get a Oasys

but seriously, if you spend 100$ on a "toy" and play it a little bit and find you'd prefer to play an instrument like guitar, you're only 100$ in the hole instead of 200-300.

and unless you're going to drop major coin down to get an oasys, steinway, dave smith, or moog anything you're going to lose some severe money on it unless the synthesis crowd picks up on some unique feature that it has that sounds weird.

ofcourse i'm assuming you can put two and two together, if you're a complete idiot and can't, then you may be better off buying something that comes with weighted keys and velocity controlled sounds.

but i really don't think it's worth the extra money unless those are features you feel you absolutely need.
 
It's fair enough, I did start speculating about the more expensive stuff and didn't make it very clear why I was doing so. I was curious, basically, and was trying to put the models that were in my price range in context (i.e. get an idea of how much worse they are than the good stuff). That said I am indeed thinking of spending around £100 now (not any more than that though), and it'll probably be the Keystation 61es... though I need to take another look round to make sure I've considered everything in that price bracket. I'll google the Casio WK110 later, thanks for the suggestion, unfortunately I've not got time to write any more now!

Thanks again folks.
 
GHarris said:
It's fair enough, I did start speculating about the more expensive stuff and didn't make it very clear why I was doing so. I was curious, basically, and was trying to put the models that were in my price range in context (i.e. get an idea of how much worse they are than the good stuff). That said I am indeed thinking of spending around £100 now (not any more than that though), and it'll probably be the Keystation 61es... though I need to take another look round to make sure I've considered everything in that price bracket. I'll google the Casio WK110 later, thanks for the suggestion, unfortunately I've not got time to write any more now!

Thanks again folks.
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i tl:dr'd your ealier post where you asked me about asio latency (i just reread the post)

with my fw-410 running asio i can get down to about 3ms using flstudio
with my soundblaster i managed to get somewhat close to that, without asio you're looking at around atleast 30 ms if not 40-50, that being said, it just doesn't seem to have the responsiveness that a synth/workstation/digital piano has which is why i suggested going for something with everything built in unless you absolutely feel you need velocity sensitive and weighted keys, i think those are features that are nice to have but especially for a beginner (who obviously doesn't have money to piss away carelessly or doesn't want to piss money away on something they may end up hating)

a much better solution (albeit a little more expensive than your price range) would be to pick up a midi controller that you like the feel of and then just get a 2nd hand tone generator.

if you keep an eye out you can get a good deal on a jv-1080 which is a roland rackmount module that has some okay piano sounds, but it supports velocity and aftertouch and if you get it with the expansion boards they sound killer, they normally go for around 250 or so on ebay but i picked mine up (with two expansion cards) for 175, you just have to keep an eye out. i realize that you probably don't want to throw that kind of money into an instrument this early on into the game, however if you get a good deal on something like the jv-1080, you can usually turn a small profit on it.
 
Adreneline said:
Try to look for a used Casio Privia series. - 88 keys, some of the best weighted action in the lower budget, light weight.
Click to expand...

Thanks for turning me onto those. I'm in a similar position to the OP, and was trying to figure out what a good "entry level" piano for my needs and budget would be. Seems like this is right on the money. :D
 
semisonic9 said:
Thanks for turning me onto those. I'm in a similar position to the OP, and was trying to figure out what a good "entry level" piano for my needs and budget would be. Seems like this is right on the money. :D
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No problem, they are great pianos. The "Casio" name has been damaged because of their toy keyboards, no one expected the Privia line to be as great as it is. It's easily the best in the budget, they don't have much higher-end pianos past 1000$ though.

The PX-120 should run you just fine, unless you want more studio features/more sounds, the more expensive PX-320 will be an option.

If you have any more questions, feel free to ask me.
 
Adreneline said:
No problem, they are great pianos. The "Casio" name has been damaged because of their toy keyboards, no one expected the Privia line to be as great as it is. It's easily the best in the budget, they don't have much higher-end pianos past 1000$ though.

The PX-120 should run you just fine, unless you want more studio features/more sounds, the more expensive PX-320 will be an option.

If you have any more questions, feel free to ask me.
Click to expand...

i can vouch for the privia's, they're pretty kickin, i almost bought one, then i remembered i have a motif es8 :D

but yeah, if you're willing to spend a little more and just want a DP then get one of the privias.
 
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