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Looks like ATi won again...

B

bobsaget

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jan 24, 2004
Messages
4,403
It might be a little early to tell, but, with the X800Pro and the X800XT PCI-E it looks like ATi won the battle over nvidia again.

What do you guys think?
 
That is the way I see it. nVidia has to love being in the backseat :D .
 
xXaNaXx said:
hey, the backseat is one of the best places to get some.... :D
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LOL :p

Hey FiZ! Missoula huh? I'm up here in Coure d' Alene, Idaho! UofM is a nice campus!
 
bobsaget said:
It might be a little early to tell, but, with the X800Pro and the X800XT PCI-E it looks like ATi won the battle over nvidia again.

What do you guys think?
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Yeah, I'd say so. IMO what should be more embarassing than being beaten by better hardware, is the fact that they paper launched the 6800 and were beaten to the market in the first place.

Of course you'll hear the BS Shader 3.0 issue, but an entire video card product cycle will pass before we'll even see games using it. It's kind of sad really. It reminds me of Apple's G5 PC/Workstation argument. If it's faster than the G5 then it's not a fair comparison because it's not a "PC", it's a "Workstation (with an AGP slot for gaming)". WTFE :rolleyes:
 
Did I miss something? What's the issue with PCI-E vid cards?

-eMpTy
 
I haven't seen PCIe benchmarks. How different are they from 8X AGP? (Considering 8X AGP wasn't even half-way used)
 
I am not really sure if this is true as of yet but, from what I have seen it's very neck and neck, also drivers are very immature for both cards. As they mature things my change ether way... I also think the PCI-E stuff is way to early to really tell whats going to happen with that...
 
Ati really amazed me this time, I thought it was going to be impossible to top the 6800u, not only did they do it, but with sleeker design, lower heat, and smaller size. To me that is going to make for a cheaper card. I have a hard time believing that Nvidia will be able to compete in price/performance brackets.
 
Nvidia will compete but at a much lower margin than ATI. I like the approach ATI took to this round and kept so quite it made Nvidia over design their GPU in fear of losing, which they actually did still lose. What happened is they now have a large, hot, power hungry, and expensive (low yeild) GPU.
 
MrHappyGoLucky said:
Nvidia will compete but at a much lower margin than ATI. I like the approach ATI took to this round and kept so quite it made Nvidia over design their GPU in fear of losing, which they actually did still lose. What happened is they now have a large, hot, power hungry, and expensive (low yeild) GPU.
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I don't think nVidia lost; to an extent yes. nVidia (for what they have recently been producing) did make a really good card. So in those regards nVidia did win/over come their crappy streak they going for them. In terms of performance and maybe IQ yeah they lost to ATI. But you will always have a loser; someone always will come in 2nd. Especially when there are only 2 runners running the race.

My money wil and has gone to ATI for a couple of years now.
 
all i have to say is nvidia needs to keep its mouth shut till there actually ready to release a card. and not this paper launch bullcrap
 
It's not a total loss. At least this round they are remotely close and can claim IQ, I think.
 
Filter said:
all i have to say is nvidia needs to keep its mouth shut till there actually ready to release a card. and not this paper launch bullcrap
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Amen to that, I want to see some cards dammit...
 
bobsaget said:
LOL :p

Hey FiZ! Missoula huh? I'm up here in Coure d' Alene, Idaho! UofM is a nice campus!
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..dang ..I'm in between both you guys in Thompson Falls ...yay

..and its gonna be nice when pci x goes main stream .. Viva La Upgrades! :)
 
Nvidia has lost since they actualy have no competing card. ATI has the XPpro and now the XTPE on the market. Nvidia has paper blowing smoke up nvidia fans asses. By the time the 6800's actually show up on the market r500? roflmfao :D



Dont flame me I dont know what came over me............... ;)
 
The truth is, the performance is so close, it's not fair to call one the winner over the other. There are places that have recently published benchmarks showing NVIDIA's cards on top. This could be due to their new drivers. Don't forget, their first drivers were beta and very new, not exploiting the new architecture to its full impact. You can say the same for ATI, but I think NVIDIA's latest drivers may just give them the edge they needed. I could be wrong, but I just feel as though NVIDIA still has a lot to work with, and has yet to really bring out the 6800's strength. When they start producing solid, aggressive performing drivers, things could get heavy for ATI. We'll have to see...
 
It'll come down to drivers and developer relations in this generation if you ask me. ATI's driver team has really stepped it up with Catalyst and while nVidia's driver team seems to be on vacation. The question is though, how long can ATI keep up their current release schedules...its got to be burning their developers out left and right.

Now developer relations....nVidia is the master in this. nVidia has always been good with getting new features of their cards supported in games. Want to see Battle for Middle Earth in all its glory, better have a 6800 with PS3.0 support.....and that is only the first of many.
 
It's too early to tell, but I think Nvidia will be the victor in terms of sales this round if they can roll out cards within the next 2 weeks. The $299 12-pipe $299 SM3.0 6800 makes the 12-pipe $399 SM2.0 X800PRO a tough sell, and the $399 16-pipe SM3.0 6800GT makes it an even tougher sell. If they can't roll out in significant quantities and ATI can, ATI will probably be the high end sales victor. I still see Nvidia dominating the low end regardless of what happens, though.
 
V0ltage said:
What Nvidia needs is an 8-pipe, 256bit card to compete with the X600.
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Considering the X600 is little more than a PCIe 9600XT, NVIDIA would be way overdoing it. They'll no doubt try to produce a better performing card, but they won't do THAT much more than they have to. They may just port their FX 5700 series to PCIe in much the same fashion.

I'm kind of disappointed in ATI for not releasing new mainstream cards. Even their budget line will be based off of the 9600 with 0.11 micron process (used to be the DX8.1 9200). I guess they feel the 9800 Pro is still plenty for the $200-300 mark, which I guess, after all, would be correct. But as far as I know they're going to discontinue the 9800 series, not take the price down, so that isn't going to be the case.
 
tranCendenZ said:
It's too early to tell, but I think Nvidia will be the victor in terms of sales this round if they can roll out cards within the next 2 weeks. The $299 12-pipe $299 SM3.0 6800 makes the 12-pipe $399 SM2.0 X800PRO a tough sell, and the $399 16-pipe SM3.0 6800GT makes it an even tougher sell. If they can't roll out in significant quantities and ATI can, ATI will probably be the high end sales victor. I still see Nvidia dominating the low end regardless of what happens, though.
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I wish people would stop looking at the pipeline count, and look more at the end performance. The X800 Pro keeps up amazingly well with even the 6800 Ultra, so the 6800GT is fair competetion for it, despite the lower pipeline count.
 
Cybercat said:
I wish people would stop looking at the pipeline count, and look more at the end performance. The X800 Pro keeps up amazingly well with even the 6800 Ultra, so the 6800GT is fair competetion for it, despite the lower pipeline count.
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Show me, that does not sound right...

If a lower 12 pipe X800 Pro did better then a 16 pipe 6800 ultra. there would be some major problems for nvidia.

now the x800 pro might be on par with the 6800GT...
 
The X800Pro does a decent job of keeping up with the 6800Ultra from what I've seen...Nvidia needs those WHQL drivers to up thier performance by 5-10% before they'll be able to go head to head with ATI on performance...with the previous generation, Nvidia seemed content to compete but not win at the high end but then cut prices in mid-range and low-end cards to pull out wins there...

The 6800 series still has some wildcards that have yet to be seen. I really wanna see what kind of numbers it can put up with a PS3.0 enabled version of Farcry and their latest WHQL drivers...I've heard they're gonna get a huge performance boost...and if that happens...you could see lots of major games getting PS3.0 support tossed in...and if that happens...Nvidia wins...

Who knows, time will tell...Nvidia is decidedly behind...but I don't think it's over just yet...
 
It's still hard to tell because there are alot more models yet to be released. I just hope they don't go overboard like before and start making cards like a 9800XTPEZQR-TFGv1.245PRO-ULTRA-MEGA-COOL or something
 
Zardoz said:
Show me, that does not sound right...

If a lower 12 pipe X800 Pro did better then a 16 pipe 6800 ultra. there would be some major problems for nvidia.

now the x800 pro might be on par with the 6800GT...
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All you have to do is go to [H]'s homepage, and there you'll find the Visiontek X800 Pro review. Take FarCry for example. The X800 Pro ran it with better PS2.0 image quality AND was able to run it at a higher resolution than the 6800 Ultra, with the same AA and AF setting! Now NVIDIA's new drivers are quite a bit improved from what [H] used, but I still find that amazing. However, with the new drivers AND SM3.0 enabled in FarCry once Microsoft releases DirectX 9.0c, you'll see all that change, no doubt. Heck, other reviews from elsewhere with the 6800GT and NVIDIA's new, but not WHQL drivers show that the GT out performs the X800 Pro, so obviously this new driver is giving their cards a considerable performance boost.
 
Well crap, I missed that, I thought it was the old review, So I stand here corrected, the x800 pro -IS- doing a very nice job keeping up with the 6800U, and we are not even looking at the x800XT yet. I would not go as for to say that it's stomping the 6800U, but for the price different, jezzz the x800 pro looks like a good deal....

But as you point out, there are some real driver/software updates that can change this.... When it's all done, I think we will see no major different between the the 6800U and x800XT, and it will just come to pricing... only a little time will tell...

Is there any x800XT vs. 6800U reviews out yet?
 
Zardoz said:
Well crap, I missed that, I thought it was the old review, So I stand here corrected, the x800 pro -IS- doing a very nice job keeping up with the 6800U, and we are not even looking at the x800XT yet. I would not go as for to say that it's stomping the 6800U, but for the price different, jezzz the x800 pro looks like a good deal....

But as you point out, there are some real driver/software updates that can change this.... When it's all done, I think we will see no major different between the the 6800U and x800XT, and it will just come to pricing... only a little time will tell...

Is there any x800XT vs. 6800U reviews out yet?
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If the X800 Pro keeps up with and even beats the 6800 Ultra then the X800 XT PE is going to spank the 6800 Ultra like a 4 year old in K-Mart.
 
[BB] Rick James said:
If the X800 Pro keeps up with and even beats the 6800 Ultra then the X800 XT PE is going to spank the 6800 Ultra like a 4 year old in K-Mart.
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Just get back from your trip the the future I see? Let me know how the Doc is doing, will ya?
 
What nvidia needs to do, is they need to work on lowering the costs for the geforce 4 ti line and the geforce fx line.


If they could turn those into budget minded/performance video cards the could take that market away from ATi .... possibly.


Also, it might also help them to think about coming up with a new name other than " Geforce"


because its getting sort of old now


-Mp
 
Cybercat said:
The truth is, the performance is so close, it's not fair to call one the winner over the other. There are places that have recently published benchmarks showing NVIDIA's cards on top. This could be due to their new drivers.
Also, Nvidia is actually using a NEW architecture so they will be able to get A LOT more performance out of their next few drivers. Where ATI this round just took their old card and doubled the size of the core to give 2x as many pipelines (oversimplified). But basically they didnt change a whole lot. Where Nvidia did change A LOT especially in the shader dept. So I would place my bet on Nvidia when the mature drivers are out. Nvidia has done it with every generation of their cards.... they always pull out some nice increases in performance with subsequent driver releases.

ATI's "trilinear" which is NOT full trilinear, but close enough for IQ purposes. (better than Nv's brilinear) When trilinear is forced on with registry hacks performance drops dramatically on the X800's (and 9600's). Even though it is a good optimization that increases performance for a very small IQ hit, I dont think a $400+ should be taking any IQ shortcuts. But I guess they had to do it or get beat this round. Where last round they didnt enable it on the 9800's.
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Click to expand...
 
chrisf6969 said:
Cybercat said:
The truth is, the performance is so close, it's not fair to call one the winner over the other. There are places that have recently published benchmarks showing NVIDIA's cards on top. This could be due to their new drivers.
Also, Nvidia is actually using a NEW architecture so they will be able to get A LOT more performance out of their next few drivers. Where ATI this round just took their old card and doubled the size of the core to give 2x as many pipelines (oversimplified). But basically they didnt change a whole lot. Where Nvidia did change A LOT especially in the shader dept. So I would place my bet on Nvidia when the mature drivers are out. Nvidia has done it with every generation of their cards.... they always pull out some nice increases in performance with subsequent driver releases.

ATI's "trilinear" which is NOT full trilinear, but close enough for IQ purposes. (better than Nv's brilinear) When trilinear is forced on with registry hacks performance drops dramatically on the X800's (and 9600's). Even though it is a good optimization that increases performance for a very small IQ hit, I dont think a $400+ should be taking any IQ shortcuts. But I guess they had to do it or get beat this round. Where last round they didnt enable it on the 9800's.
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I couldn't agree with you more. If I'm buying top of the line, I want the HIGHEST POSSIBLE IMAGE QUALITY to be an OPTION. I shouldn't have to hack a $450 video card to get it to run full quality mode. Hopefully ATI will realize this and add it to the drivers.

-eMpTy
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first off im not an ATI fanboi just because i have the x800pro, i have it because it was the only thing available. i will be trying the NV cards as soon as i can get my hands on one for a decent price.... oh and before the x800 i had the fx5900

that said, i dunno why people keep talking about the NEW architecture. newer is not always better. and we are talking about NEW and BETTER architecture relative to the old NVs not the old ATI. now im not saying that the new NVs are sorrier than the old ATIs, but its not fair how people are comparing the two new chips.

to me the new arch. is just a statement admitting that the old arch. was a failure. NV HAD to develope new arch. this time around because who the hell would buy a 500$ card based on the FX series gpu that failed to perform?. the 9x00 ati's ripped the FXs a new one, so why would they need start from the ground up? they did what they needed to, and simply made it better, 2x better.
 
I have been folloowing this whole debate closely and been reading all the reviews and I have come to this decision... (If anybody cares)

ATI is making a really good card and it is available now. (My father-in-law just got his Saphire X800XT yesterday)

I even had an order put in for one a couple weeks ago. However, I canceled it.

After more reading and the new driver releases, I think nVidia has the most going for them when it comes to supporting future games. Thier tech is definitely newer then ATI's and, to me, more exciting.

I do not think ATI has made a bad product (In fact it sounds like it is a very good product), but it just doesn't seem like enough of a tech change. It is basically a faster version of my 9800 pro with the same shader/AA/AF options.

I generally like to be on the cutting edge when it comes to tech. Also, it is kind of cool to play with new stuff and be able to actually "see" the changes new drivers make. I beta test new games a lot, and this may be kind of like beta-testing hardware. So I am now waiting for a my 6800U to get here. (If it will ever ship...)

Just my two cents...
 
i dunno but if more companies can sell their x800 pros like Ecost does then i think ill go with the x800pro

plus we all know the x800s are set out to spank halflife2 with a wet noodle on 'roids, whereas the 6800s are supposed to do the same to doom3

no matter what the new drivers do, they wont make the 6800s as efficient as the x800s are
 
retardedchicken said:
i dunno but if more companies can sell their x800 pros like Ecost does then i think ill go with the x800pro

plus we all know the x800s are set out to spank halflife2 with a wet noodle on 'roids, whereas the 6800s are supposed to do the same to doom3

no matter what the new drivers do, they wont make the 6800s as efficient as the x800s are
Click to expand...

All numbers seen thus far on Half-Life 2 and Doom 3 were on the NV3x architecture which is wildly different than the NV4x architecture. I bet it's gonna be a close match on both games with the new cards out. You can take the radeon 9800 numbers and multiply by 2 to see what the X800 series will do...but nobody knows what the NV4x is capable of yet.

The X800s are not more efficient...they are clocked faster. Note that the X800XT PE will be clocked at 520Mhz, a full 120Mhz faster than the stock frequency of a 6800U...and it still doesn't beat the 6800 by that much.

Don't confuse simpler technology with efficiency. Fact is, the X800 series supports less shader instructions than the Geforce FX 5950...it is OLD technology...only reason it's faster is it's clock speed...and it's clock is that high because it has like 60 million less transistors...

-eMpTy
 
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