Looking to setup a Massive Lan / gaming center / net cafe thing, suggestions?

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ufokillerz

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I'm looking to setup a lan for 90-100 systems.

I will either be using dual t1 connections or a t3 line of some sort.

sytems on the lan will be either used for gaming or web conferencing.

I'm looking for suggestions.

I'm not looking to buy 2000 dollar parts unless i have to.

right now i'm thinking of gigabit switches and a router that unites all the switches. but i've never tackled such a big lan before, and i have no clue if a router would blow up from traffic from 100 machines.

any suggestion would be helpful, going as deep as specific switches and routers recommended is even better =D

and for the curious, yes i'm setting up a lan/gaming center, after i get this down, i'll be looking at time limiting software for the machines, suggestions on that would be nice too =D

Thanks.
 
is this going to be used for just one weekend?
daily?
monthly?

dual T1s for just AN event would be pricey I imagine....

as for dual dual T1s... Cisco people can chime in... but you could pick up an old ~2500 series router and dual WICs and combine them for traffic. T3s take more hardware I believe. These units are cheap and plentiful on ebay. In fact I have 2 at home right now that I will start learning on from work.

As for switches... you could just pick up some good generic switches. Like a Dell, SMC, Netgear, etc. Just get some decent ones. Alternativly you could get somehing like the Cicscos and then have a backbone to them, so you don't have to uplink to each switch. But then you are getting MUCH heavier into cost, especially if you want gigabit.

that is how I would do it... again depending on how much this will be used... more use = better hardware... very rare or just once, cheaper...

also may want to host a smaller lan and meet some people in the area. Perhaps some of them have old hardware laying around at work, and may donate it to the cause....
 
I need 2 things from you: A buisness plan and a budget.

Without them all we'll be doing is guessing as to what's best for your proposed network.
 
I'm failing to see why you would need a t1 or t3, if your lan'ing you dont need the internet? Ive been to a lan wigh 300 peeps, at a radison hotel, no internet there and the gaming was fierce!
 
MYPEARL said:
I'm failing to see why you would need a t1 or t3, if your lan'ing you dont need the internet? Ive been to a lan wigh 300 peeps, at a radison hotel, no internet there and the gaming was fierce!
Click to expand...
agreed... but its VERY handy for checking on forams, getting drivers, patches, etc.

I would say getting a good cable/DSL connection would be very sufficient and much much more cost effective.
 
Heck, look into Verizon FIOS. Save yourself some money and be faster than a t1 or dual pipe t1.
 
"lan for 90-100 systems"

Ezekial said:
I would say getting a good cable/DSL connection would be very sufficient and much much more cost effective.
Click to expand...

You're kidding right?
 
its a internet center, people walk in pay you something and go online, game online, web conference etc.

i would say a budget of 1k-2k USD for routers and switches.
 
Malk-a-mite said:
"lan for 90-100 systems"



You're kidding right?
Click to expand...
no
if he keeps the usage down it will be more than sufficient. IE, minimal file sharing/torrents/etc. Not necesarily mission ciritical uptime.. but then again.. we still don't know what the hell is exactly going on here :D

You can get good packages from both vendors. At my last position we ran our office internet off of a DSL line and we had 100 employees along with servers. Later on we migrated to a T1 for servers and DSL for internet. We had 6mb down with like 2mb up or something.
 
ufokillerz said:
I'm looking to setup a lan for 90-100 systems.

I will either be using dual t1 connections or a t3 line of some sort.

I'm not looking to buy 2000 dollar parts unless i have to.
Click to expand...

Honestly...if you're looking for long term...with that many people...you should not be looking at el-cheapo parts.

I helped setup just weekend LAN parties...with over 100 players, if you want to pull off something that runs well..you're going to have to stepup to some good hardware.

There's a lot..a LOT..to think about here.

1) Cost of internet! Internet pipe..even dual T-1's won't cut it..you're better off getting a chuck of DS3 or OC3 that you can purchase, or lop off, in increments. Start off with a 10 meg pipe or somethin. A router that can handle all those concurrent clients, that kind of traffic, and block applications/ports. You'll want to stop the running of P2P junk. Not only will the KILL your bandwidth, it will KILL your machines with all the infestations that come with that P2P junk.

2) Cost of infrastructure! Good switches, uplinked with fiber or backplanes

3) Cost of Servers...I'd imagine you'll want to run quite a few games....and having them onsite will perform better. With many clients connecting..you'll want true servers, not glorified desktop PCs trying to run as servers, but true servers...server operating systems, server grade NICs, SCSI hard drives, antivirus protection, battery backup units, etc. You shouldn't skimp here on el cheapo clone built servers..but good solid rigs that can run for weeks and weeks without a reboot. You don't want junk servers that require reboots several times a day.

4) Cost of workstations...desktop OS licenses, gaming rigs with lotsa RAM, good video, good gaming monitors, headphones, antivirus on each. Licensed games installed on each. Quite easily over 2 grand a pop.

5) Imaging/cloning system for your rigs...workstations will go down often as they get beat on...need to be able to restore an image fast. Same goes for your servers.

6) Juice for all of this. You'll need some AMPS. You're not going pull that off with your average professional centers electrical panel.

That's only with 5 minutes of thinking about it.
 
With a budget of 2k, I cant help but think this is just a pipe dream, unless you get some kind of damn good deal on fleabay. I already have over 300.00 in used old crap ive bought for home use and for small LAN's (can support about 30 people max).

DSL/Cable would work if he wasnt trying to do a net-cafe type thing. 100 people using the intarweb over something like cable... That scares me. If it were just a bi-monthly lan party (or yearly), I could understand DSL/cable for giving certian individuals access to download patches or drivers if they absolutley need to.
 
Going to need some serious gear to setup it all up, with that much traffic i would go GIG threwout the hole network. Also on the connection how much of internet are you going to be doing? If every pc is going to be online i would look into a OC3 line
What is your price range, so i know what all equipment to sugest?
 
You will also need to look into cooling the lot.
100 computers pulling around 150 watts each is going to put out around 15 Kwatts of heat.
Being puplic means there will be a max/min temp it can be.

Luck....... :D
 
..you would want all the same exact setups for easy imaging and re installations , part swapping if you get a unit go down (can scab from it to keep other boxes up and running if needed).. and prolly go with all LCD screens to save on desktop space and cut down on power consumption

 
I don't know that you need Gig Ethernet everywhere. 100MB is going to be fine for most gaming. I've gamed on 1GB Lans, and 100MB lans, and have noticed very little difference. I do agree that you need a few servers on the LAN, and those should be in 1GB switches. I would almost look at one of the HP Procuve Chasis switches. You can dump in blades as needed with one of those (or the Cisco equivelant), however you are looking into some money.

Are there LAN/Internet cafe's in your area already? See if you can see what they have done. Go to other cities and check out what they have done. For example if you are in Laffayette, In, run up to Chicago or down to Indianapolis and check out CyberCafes there. This way it isn't the soon to be competition checking them out.

I guess you could go with some Linksys 10/100 switches with a 1GB GBIC to connect to a central switch, then put the servers also on that central switch too. And by the Linksys I am talking the rack mounted 1U 10/100 switches, like one of these . CDW lists that puppy as $444 (without any discounts). So 4 of those to get just under 100 ports (96 to be exact), will be just under $2,000. And you will need a core switch on top of that for those 4 to hook into, plus your servers.

The T1 or T3, or multiple T1s, or whatever you are doing will require a DSU and router. Usually it is just a WIC or a card that you plug into the router. Figure $750 for a good one, maybe up to $1,000 total.

If this is a business, how long do you plan on it taking for you to start making money? How long can you sustain losses, and how much can you lose per month? How many people do you need in per day to make this pay for itself? Will you make up those numbers on weekends?

All questions to think about.
 
I'd have to say that starting off with 90-100 seats from the beginning is probably a bit overzealous. Start small, say 15-20 seats to start and base your businessplan and calculations on that. Only once you are convinced you can pull off handling 15-20 will it be worth YOUR risk and OUR time to build it up from there.

As far as internet access goes, many T1 and up vendors can\will bundle a router in with their service fees.
 
it is in a prime spot in nyc.

chinatown to be specific.

chances are that the place will not be filled most of the time, but it is the times when it is filled that i need to be planning for.

most internet cafes in the area consists of mainly people gaming within the lan more then going online.

i'm planing for the future incase i want to host something in the future that might guzzle loads of bandwidth.

i was thinking of keeping the systems with 10/100 eternet but gige to connect the multiple switches, problem would probably be a router that can handel the number of computers.

i was told that the budget for internet was already expected to be 1k+ a month, but not sure how high they are willing to go.

i would not be expecting people to be running torrents nad other things at this location.

one of my bigger worries is, say 20 people are video conferencing etc.

thx for all the input so far, keeps me thinking and i have more options to look at.

and thx for the input about p2p, i will definately be blocking that out.
 
The key word you should be thinking is traffic shaping. Absolutely, positively kill all P2P/file-sharing and other protocols. As well on LAN nights, a single moron leeching off the internet can ruin things for everyone (from what I've heard from other LAN masters, it pwns the router which is trying to handle all the inner-LAN connections, and supply the hoser with internet data s well).

Another thing would be power...I'd be looking into trying the mobile chips on desktop rig plan to save on the power bills. Even medium-clocked Pentium Ms have proven more than capable of handling desktop tasks.
 
Im in a better mood now, more positive (scary, eh?). Lets re-visit what the OP said, and pick it apart.

ufokillerz said:
I'm looking to setup a lan for 90-100 systems.
Click to expand...
Ok. So a spontaneous lan that only happens a few times a year?

ufokillerz said:
I will either be using dual t1 connections or a t3 line of some sort.sytems on the lan will be either used for gaming or web conferencing.
Click to expand...
Single T1- 1.54Mbps from 500-1k a month per link, Doesnt sound like its what your looking for.[/quote]

T3 - 45Mbps, ~2-3k per month, or about $56/mo per megabit of bandwidth.

ufokillerz said:
I'm not looking to buy 2000 dollar parts unless i have to.

right now i'm thinking of gigabit switches and a router that unites all the switches. but i've never tackled such a big lan before, and i have no clue if a router would blow up from traffic from 100 machines.
Click to expand...

Hmm, I see a problem here, Ill try and point it out with some quoting :

ufokillerz said:
....i'm thinking of gigabit switches and a router....either be using dual t1 connections or a t3 line....
Click to expand...

Sorry, but I just cant help to think that those three together are going to cost about a years worth of part-time wages for me if I had to buy it all :(.

ufokillerz said:
any suggestion would be helpful, going as deep as specific switches and routers recommended is even better =D

and for the curious, yes i'm setting up a lan/gaming center, after i get this down, i'll be looking at time limiting software for the machines, suggestions on that would be nice too =D

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Well, This is my opinion. If your having 100 people and want to use gigabit per pc, it would be a waste. Go for 5-10 10/100 switches that have a 1Gbps backbone/uplink port, and set one on each table row so every PC doesnt need a 200' long cat5 cable. Get one decent gigabit router, to act as the backbone for the 10/100 switches.

Should be able to keep it under 2k for switches if you use decent moderatley new hardware. As for limiting internet usage on PC's, google 'captive portal'.

Other than that, I dont think I have anythign else to add. I just thing you are seriously under-estimating the cost involved with this, unless you plan to throw together some 10Mbps hubs.
 
anyone think a smoothwall or a ipcop machine would be able to handle the routing of the 100 machines or is my best bet still a decent router as a backbone?
 
ufokillerz said:
anyone think a smoothwall or a ipcop machine would be able to handle the routing of the 100 machines or is my best bet still a decent router as a backbone?
Click to expand...
it prolly could with a CRAZY processor (think overclocked fx-55) and some CRAZY nic cards, (not the crappy broadcom gig-e types) think server grade pci-x nics
 
killa62 said:
it prolly could with a CRAZY processor (think overclocked fx-55) and some CRAZY nic cards, (not the crappy broadcom gig-e types) think server grade pci-x nics
Click to expand...

lol probably better off getting a cisco router if thats what i'm gonna need
 
Well like a few of us have already said, What exactly are you trying to do? I dont have a crystall ball, and I can only guess and pull crap out of my ass. Your question, to me, is as clear as mud. Ive asked thsi... four times now?

What exactly are you trying to do (yes I know you want to have 100PC's). Is this a buisness? Is this a net-cafe? Or is this a regular LAN party. How much, realistically, do you have budgeted for this?

If you have 100 people at a LAN party, you could get by with an IPcop style router by blocking access to nearly everyone, and only giving a handfull of people limited access (eg. drivers, or some kind of patch). At our previous lans here (8 people), we just have an old SOHO router (linksys... maybe, cant remember). Its fine, mostly because nobodys sitting on their ass looking at crap on the net, because we came to frag not to look at pr0n.

If you have 100 PC's at a net-cafe, you better be ready to spend good cash. And again, without knowing exactly what your plans are (what youve said could mean about 10 different things), none of us here can give you a straight direct answer. We just dont know what your doing.
 
bob said:
Well like a few of us have already said, What exactly are you trying to do? I dont have a crystall ball, and I can only guess and pull crap out of my ass. Your question, to me, is as clear as mud. Ive asked thsi... four times now?

What exactly are you trying to do (yes I know you want to have 100PC's). Is this a buisness? Is this a net-cafe? Or is this a regular LAN party. How much, realistically, do you have budgeted for this?

If you have 100 people at a LAN party, you could get by with an IPcop style router by blocking access to nearly everyone, and only giving a handfull of people limited access (eg. drivers, or some kind of patch). At our previous lans here (8 people), we just have an old SOHO router (linksys... maybe, cant remember). Its fine, mostly because nobodys sitting on their ass looking at crap on the net, because we came to frag not to look at pr0n.

If you have 100 PC's at a net-cafe, you better be ready to spend good cash. And again, without knowing exactly what your plans are (what youve said could mean about 10 different things), none of us here can give you a straight direct answer. We just dont know what your doing.
Click to expand...


Its a net cafe, but the systems will be loaded with some decent lan games, think cs etc, probably go as far as quake and doom also.

my apologies if i never made it clear

but it is a net cafe, with decent systems that will play some of the newer games, and i would probably like to host a tourney of some sort eventually.

budget as far as i know should be atleast 70k but thats just a best guess. most of that budget will be spent in machines.
 
ufokillerz said:
Its a net cafe, but the systems will be loaded with some decent lan games, think cs etc, probably go as far as quake and doom also.

my apologies if i never made it clear

but it is a net cafe, with decent systems that will play some of the newer games, and i would probably like to host a tourney of some sort eventually.

budget as far as i know should be atleast 70k but thats just a best guess. most of that budget will be spent in machines.
Click to expand...
If I were you I wouldn't go all out buying 100 PCs right then and there. Buy maybe 60-70 and make sure to spend money getting the whole network done right. You can expand to 100 later.
 
Shameless Liar said:
If I were you I wouldn't go all out buying 100 PCs right then and there. Buy maybe 60-70 and make sure to spend money getting the whole network done right. You can expand to 100 later.
Click to expand...

thing is if i had to, the partners would probably get the money somehow.

i havent touched networking in a long time and have no clue about the capabilities of all these new things around today. hence this thread asking for help =P
 
ufokillerz said:
anyone think a smoothwall or a ipcop machine would be able to handle the routing of the 100 machines or is my best bet still a decent router as a backbone?
Click to expand...

I'm sure you could easily build one that would handle it fine...the thing here is...support. Or at least, being able to replace it quickly. Being you'd be leaning on something that's PC based....meaning..higher probability of failure compared to using some Tier-1 router...you'd be smart to make a few identicle units. Get yourself some serious business grade PCs...not some cheap 600 dolla 1 year warranty junkers, but some really nice business grade workstations..or better yet...I'd go with some 1U rack mount pizza box servers, meant to run 24/7 for 3 years. Server grade network cards (an absolute must), server grade hard drives (enterprise hard drives have MTBF of over 1 million hours...about a 5 year warranty) Pentium M for low power consumption/heat. Or a midrange P4. Gig of RAM. Get yourself two or three identicle ones...groom the settings on one of them...then clone that drive to the others. Instant replacement.

I'm still not positive I'd take the ghetto router approach...but yeah, done right, should be fine...just think of support, ability to quickly replace.

Regarding the bandwidth...what I mentioned way back there...think "flexibility"...get a package that allows you to build on it, as needed. "Fractional". But I'd seriously shoot for starting with 10 - 20 megs worth.

As for your workstation...you're going to want to shoot for
1) Ability to image..and have this image last for a good lifetime of product
2) Support..warranty....ability to quickly and easily get parts replaced...with minimal effort on your part, and hopefully quickly..like overnight.

Mom and pop shop built cloners tend to work against that theory...they tend to go with whatever parts are cheapest at that time, "motherboard of the month" club components.
 
YeOldeStonecat said:
server grade hard drives (enterprise hard drives have MTBF of over 1 million hours...about a 5 year warranty) Gig of RAM.
Click to expand...
no need for these for m0n0wall and i believe for the other generic pc routers, because they only need the hd for bootup
gig of ram is overkill, i would say 512 or even 256 megs would be fine
 
killa62 said:
no need for these for m0n0wall and i believe for the other generic pc routers, because they only need the hd for bootup
gig of ram is overkill, i would say 512 or even 256 megs would be fine
Click to expand...
I would go no lower than 512 in any system for this project of yours.

I say take it slow... 20 or so machines, one T1 pipe or FIOS, then as you build revenue, upgrade / expand. IMO, it would suck if this flopped on you, and you were stuck with all this stuff.

BTW, are there other LAN centers in your area? You have to think for a second, what would set you apart from your "competition"? What is going to make people come to you as opposed to the other places?
 
ufokillerz said:
anyone think a smoothwall or a ipcop machine would be able to handle the routing of the 100 machines or is my best bet still a decent router as a backbone?
Click to expand...

God, yes. Believe it or not, there's more than a few people that use it as enterprise firewalls. Personally that scares me to go THAT far yet, but it seems to be bullet proof.
ufokillerz said:
budget as far as i know should be atleast 70k but thats just a best guess. most of that budget will be spent in machines.
Click to expand...

70k? Wanna double check your figures? Let's even back up a bit and do 50 machines.

PC: call it $700 or so. IT's a mass market LAN box, it doesn't have to have the 7900GTX in it ;) Most will never notice a difference. $700 x 50 = $35,000
Monitors for said PC's: Basic 17" LCD ~$250 shipped. $250 x 50 = $12,500
LISCENSED copies of Games: You said what 5 or 6 different games? at what ~$45 ea? $45 x 6games x 50 = $13,500

total so far: $61,000, No servers, No networking hardware, No Cabling, No furniture, No Command/Control

Cabling alone done RIGHT, for that many boxes will probably be at least $5-6000.
Network hardware(no router) you could probably get away with $3k or so and have a spare or 2.
Furniture? Banquet tables with chairs? Workstation desks? I'm not even going to venture a guess on that...
Servers, Like StoneCat said, at lease 3 or 4 to handle a full house playing that many different games. A 1U box with 2gb mem, fast drives, server NIC's, etc, $1500-$2000?

Now you are up to $61,000 for the PC's + $6000 + $3000 + (4 x $2000) = $78,000 w/o Furniture or Command/Control

Keep in mind too that we are NOT trying to discourage you from anything. But you need to have ALL of these plans laid out and have ALL of the answers ready when the time comes to go see the Bank/Gov't/Grant Agency/Etc. for the cash to finance this venture.
 
killa62 said:
no need for these for m0n0wall and i believe for the other generic pc routers, because they only need the hd for bootup
gig of ram is overkill, i would say 512 or even 256 megs would be fine
Click to expand...

You can chance things if you want with cheap Maxtor or junkyard re-cycled drives...I personally wouldn't. I'm not talking about needing Seagate Cheetah 15k rpm U320 drives...I'm simply talking about quality business grade drives...with a 3-5 year warranty. Seagate Cuda's, WD Caviars, WD Raptors.

RAM...he's talking about quite possibly a lot of PCs here...concurrent connections uses up router RAM..regardless of what's running the router. RAM is so dirt cheap these days...the price diff to go from 512 to a gig is practically pocket change.

A core component of his setup...why skimp?
 
great thread going here

just a quick input on routers. At my last job we had 100 users, along with servers all going through a home built router. We used a microATX board with a Sempron 2200 IIRC. It was around 1.6ghz and tacked on 256mb or 512mb ram (don't remember) and then just an old HD we had laying around. That thing never peaked even 1% through the 6 months or so while in use, and I was there. We had standard cheap NICs and stuff as well running a custom configured GenToo installation. No problems ever.

While the useage was not super heavy, we had no problems out of it. My supervisor did most of the work.. if it were me I would have going with better NICs, anotehr HD, and had a mirrored unit ready to go at a moments notice.

We even had seperate networks keeping our outside servers off of the main network, but having the protocols/ports/etc routed through as needed.

You can always setup something like this and then upgrade down the road if things take off.

If this were me I would start with 20 gaming machines, a high speed DSL/cable or FIOS line (read business plan) and see how things go, and a T1 for reliability if wanted. You can always add more throughput and machines as necessary.

As for switches.. I think a good solid backbone gigabit switch would be sufficient and then uplink to some solid 100base switches with gig uplinks.


this is comign from someone who thinks cheap, fun, and decently reliable. If this was mission critical and lots of $ was able to be thrown around, of course I woudl recommend better stuff. But this should work good and get you going.
 
People keep overestimating the amount of power ipcop needs. Just ask some of the people on #ipcop if you don't believe it, heh. We have a Opteron 165 1U blade w/ 2GB RAM and Intel Server NICs routing at gigabit speeds happily for ~500 clients. Best part is, got it from Sun minus OS, so the hardware is still covered under warranty. Free (well, other than hardware coast), fast, and stable.
 
thx, any suggestions for routers if i go that router instead of a box?

i would probably have a fractional t3 line and might upgrade if needed.



say i went with ipcop.

would it work best if i had enough server grade nic cards in there for each switch i plan to use , or

1 nic card going out to a single switch that would then go out to the 4 24 port switches? i was scratching my head on this for a while also.
 
ufokillerz said:
thx, any suggestions for routers if i go that router instead of a box?

i would probably have a fractional t3 line and might upgrade if needed.



say i went with ipcop.

would it work best if i had enough server grade nic cards in there for each switch i plan to use , or

1 nic card going out to a single switch that would then go out to the 4 24 port switches? i was scratching my head on this for a while also.
Click to expand...


#1 Your router does not need to be connected to every switch you have.

#2 If this were an office environment you would generally have one large core switch with several wiring closet or workgroup switches attached to it. So try to think along those lines.

#3 As far as routers go, don't worry about the number of hosts crashing it. If it is set up correctly that will not be a problem. If you have guys doing DoS attacks on your router then that's another story.

#4 Cisco 3825 or 3845, will have plenty of power if and when you get that T3 that you want. Be advised, this alone is going to put a serious hurt on your budget (the 3845 without any modules is $14,000+ MSRP). If you feel the need to start with a frac. T3 then go with the 3845...

#5 Take some of that budget money and get some local help, It sounds like you are behind the 8 ball on this one...
 
No offense but this sounds like just another high school kid dreaming again.
 
From a business standpoint....

A tech business (inet/gaming cafe or otherwise) with an underfunded technology budget is on a slope to failure. Ideally start with an unlimited budget for hardware and price it out, then start notching it down to a realistic price point, where you get maximum reliability, bang for your buck, and room for growth if need be.

The total cost per seat for 100 comps will be high if you want to include the gaming aspect, factoring in fixed costs...salary, electricity, rent in NYC, bandwidth....just looking at that alone id start with budget of a couple hundred thou to be able to bring something to market that isn't thrown together and is professional, then again your operating in china town :p
 
guess i'll have to talk to my partners and tell them that their budget wont cut it. I used to be into this stuff a few years ago, this is what happens when you stop using hardforums for 2 years =P
 
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