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Looking for help with watercooling setup

N

n00bWantingToLearn

n00b
Joined
Dec 20, 2008
Messages
18
I apologize in advance for this long of a post. I just recently built my second computer and after doing so am simply not that happy with its performance (Heat wise).

I have been reading up on water cooling and am thinking about going ahead and taking the plunge. I am looking for advice on what parts to get.

I currently have a Thermaltake Armour+ full tower case. I removed the bottom hard drive bay entirely and have both hard drives in 5 1/2 to 3 1/2 bay adapters.

I have replaced all the fans (except for the 230mm on the side) with better fans. I currently have the following:
120mm SilenX 90CFM fan in the front of the case
120mm Thermaltake on the other side of where the hard drive bay was located (no link, was originally the intake fan)
2 120mm Zalman intake fan (no link, sorry)
1 120 SilenX fan at the top of the case (Partially blocked by PSU)
Tuniq Tower 120 CPU cooler
120mm Artic Cooling Exhaust fan
and finally a NXZT fan controller (really pretty awesome product IMO)

I am looking to cool the following parts:

Graphics card 4870X2
CPU Q9650 Overclocked to 3.6 (might go higher if I can)
Northbridge and Southbridge of the Asus P5E

I would like this to be setup so should I add another 4870x2 (likely) I can simply connect it up to the system.

I would like to keep all of this internal. I am struggling to figure out how many radiators I would need, what parts to get, etc. My case has room at the bottom for a triple 120 rad, and i could hook one up to the front intake and rear exhaust, I just dont want to go overboard if i dont have to.

Any thoughts and suggestions are appreciated!
 
I think you would be ok with either a Feser or Thermochill tripple rad, until you add a second video card anyway. At that point you would most likely need a second, either a double or tripple to keep temps under control.
 
Besides the radiator, what speed fans would I need. I am also extremely confused on mounting them. I would assume you mount them on top the radiator pulling the heat up, but wouldnt that just increase the ambient temperature in the case, heating other components up?

Also any recommendations on fans, tubing, reservoir, barbs/fittings? I have been looking at danger den parts (as they seem to be thought highly of) and stuff off frozencpu.

CPU cooler

Pump Options

I have no idea about what GPU cooler to get, frozencpu has a whole bunch listed and I don't know how much difference it makes what the part is made of (copper, nickle, etc). Also unsure on the CPU waterblock.

Any thoughts/suggestions?

I am willing to spend the cash to make sure its a good system, but dont want fluff if I dont need it. Any help as always is greatly appreciated
 
Besides the radiator, what speed fans would I need. I am also extremely confused on mounting them. I would assume you mount them on top the radiator pulling the heat up, but wouldnt that just increase the ambient temperature in the case, heating other components up?
Click to expand...

Welcome.

I recommend med or high speed fans wired to a fan controller. My thinking is that you can allways turn down a higher speed fan to reduce noise but you cannot turn up a low speed fan to increase cooling. Any good quality sleeve bearing fan will do, if you are serious about it and check to see if you have the headroom, the 38mm thick fans are the best choice as they deliver good airflow at med and low speeds even with the high restriction (high static back pressure) to airflow a rad's fin array makes. These fans are about 1 1/2 inches thick compared to the more typical 1" thick 25mm fans. They also tend to be of the highest quality and will cost a bit more.

The main cooling mechanism of the rad is the delta (difference) between the temp of the coolant flowing through the rad and the temp of the air flowing over the fins. The greater this difference the more effective the rad. Thus for best cooling you are correct. It is best to pull/push the cooler ambient room air through the rad. Yes this will increase ambient case temps some so case airflow is still important. You have hit on the main issue I have with water cooling and mounting rads in a case. You have two choices, blow warm air from inside the case (bad) through the rad and out or pull cool air in and warm the case (bad). The latter is the better alternative from a cooling/overclocking view.

You could turn that big side fan around so it exhausts. You should even consider turing around some of the other fans as well. The nice thing is that flipping a fan is usually easy to do and its fairly easy to see the results quickly.

I solve the issue by using a method you are not interested in, I "fly" the rads outside the case. This is not an option as you expressed an "all internal" solution.

Another thing to keep in mind is that by removing the cpu fan and using a waterblock you eliminate the airflow for the cpu voltage regulation circuitry that surrounds the cpu socket. Be thinking of where you could mount a fan to either blow air on those components or if the board has a heatpipe you can glue a small fan directly to the heatpipe fins. This becomes very important with quads and high overclocks. Typically those parts are rated for pretty high temps but for a long life and stability some moving air directly hitting them or their heatsinks is highly recommended.
 
In the past I have used ambient->radiator setup. However, I have noticed that even with a good filter, the radiator gets much more dust collected on it vs a case->radiator setup.
Also for the number of radiators: I would say a high quality 120mm per 4870x2 is minimum. A single 120mm for CPU is enough. If possible get a triple for the GPU's and a single for the CPU and have them in separate loops.
Last but not least I would get these quick connects from koolance:
http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/default.php?cPath=62_60
They look really nice and makes disconnecting real easy. They aren't cheap but you can use them over and over in future builds as well.
 
I recommend med or high speed fans wired to a fan controller. My thinking is that you can allways turn down a higher speed fan to reduce noise but you cannot turn up a low speed fan to increase cooling. Any good quality sleeve bearing fan will do, if you are serious about it and check to see if you have the headroom, the 38mm thick fans are the best choice as they deliver good airflow at med and low speeds even with the high restriction (high static back pressure) to airflow a rad's fin array makes. These fans are about 1 1/2 inches thick compared to the more typical 1" thick 25mm fans. They also tend to be of the highest quality and will cost a bit more.
Click to expand...

I currently am using a 38mm thick fan on the front and while it cost me around 25 dollars it is one of the quietest fans in my system. I will heed well your advice on the cpu circuitry, I am thinking of using a fan I have seen in some of TomsHardware builds. It has a flexible neck and you can point it anywhere in the case.

I will more than likely keep my current fan controller (unless recomended to not) as it can control a total of 5 3pin fans (allowing me to control all three connected to the radiator, one in the front and one in the back).

I will post some pics of my rig shortly (am at work now) and will show kinda what my thoughts were originally and get some input.

Last but not least I would get these quick connects from koolance:
http://www.koolance.com/water-coolin...hp?cPath=62_60
They look really nice and makes disconnecting real easy. They aren't cheap but you can use them over and over in future builds as well.
Click to expand...
While money doesnt grow on trees, being able to get quality parts that dont break down over time is well worth the extra cost, that and reuseability. Thanks for the link, will prob end up going with them.

I am thinking about the following setup:

1 120 mm rad connected to the rear 120mm fan that is the loop used by the CPU, Northbridge and Southbridge with a 38mm fan (have checked clearance and will work)

1 320mm rad (current thought is to bottom mount it after modding case) for the GPU (or both GPU's once the second gets added) with 38mm fans (baring any clearance issues)

This will make a little more sense once I have pictures up.

With this type setup would I need seperate pumps/reservoirfor each loop or simply need to split them at the reservoir?

Thanks so much for the input already, I am learning so much and appreciate it
 
A single 120 won't likely cut it for CPU plus chipset and mosfet. I think you would be better off here with a single loop and a strong pump, allowing all components to share both radiators.
 
I think you would like the XSPC Razor for the 4870x2. I just ordered mine from Sidewinder for a good price.

I will be installing in the new year.

Happy shopping.
 
I think you would like the XSPC Razor for the 4870x2. I just ordered mine from Sidewinder for a good price.
Click to expand...
I do indeed like that. Anyone have any experience with the DangerDen Block for the 4870x2?

So the consensus seems to be either two independent loops or one large loop.

I would prefer to go with one large loop personally (requires a little less planning and allows for fewer parts needed)

I am working on getting a free picture account so I can actually post the pictures of the setups I have in mind. Hopefully have them up by later tonight
 
I decided against posting pics of the actual rig as it would be extremely confusing with all the wiring in there and hell to edit. I grabbed some pics of the case and mobo from newegg and used illustrator to drop in the parts where I see them going.

Regardless of the size of the res I would like to install it in the top 5 1/2 bay as it already has a hole in it for use when adding Thermaltake's Big Water Systems (which I decided against going with). Doing this would allow for very easy refilling and make sure when I install it that the res is higher than all the other parts helping me get rid of any air bubbles.

Pics of the possible setups

Option 1
rig1.jpg


Not sure if the loop is setup right as the GPU temp water cooling the SB might not be the best idea. It also leaves all the hot air to be exhausted by just the top fan and the PSU fan

Option 2
rig2.jpg


not sure how I like this either as I have to give up the triple rad for a double due to clearance issues (which i might have anyway with the triple rad)

Any thoughts/suggestions on this setup? Any better loop ideas? I am more than willing to entertain all ideas at this point.
 
this is a very informative thread. i'd like to go water at some point (when i can afford to do it right), and it's good to see a discussion of some of the finer points not covered in most stickies and WC introductions.

however i'd like to point out (on a lighter note) that if you stick around, at this rate you may come to regret your choice of user name :p
 
dystopic said:
this is a very informative thread. i'd like to go water at some point (when i can afford to do it right), and it's good to see a discussion of some of the finer points not covered in most stickies and WC introductions.

however i'd like to point out (on a lighter note) that if you stick around, at this rate you may come to regret your choice of user name :p
Click to expand...

While the n00b aspect may begin to become annoying the remainder will always be true. I discovered a long time ago there are always people out there smarter and better than you (in my case most of them seem to post on these forums often) :p
 
anr11 said:
I think you would be ok with either a Feser or Thermochill tripple rad, until you add a second video card anyway. At that point you would most likely need a second, either a double or tripple to keep temps under control.
Click to expand...

I highly doubt he'd need 2 120.3 rads to keep his quad and 4870X2 properly cool. A single 120.3 with medium or low speed Yates coupled with good blocks and a good pump would give him great cooling. Not to mention but spending $200+ on radiators is just ridiculous.
 
dealmaster said:
I highly doubt he'd need 2 120.3 rads to keep his quad and 4870X2 properly cool. A single 120.3 with medium or low speed Yates coupled with good blocks and a good pump would give him great cooling. Not to mention but spending $200+ on radiators is just ridiculous.
Click to expand...

I think you misunderstood my response and/or his question. He isn't just cooling 1 4870x2. He wants to cool his CPU, NB/SB and mosfets, and 1 4870x2 right now with headroom for adding a second. 1 really good single tripple rad would be good enough for mainboard, CPU, and GPU but when the second GPU is added (keep in mind these are X2's), I seriously doubt it would be able to handle the heat load.
 
Ahh I gotcha, and I agree. For a CPU/GPU and board, a 120.3 or even a MCR320 would be fine, but yeah, if you want to watercool another 4870X2, you'll definitely need another radiator.
 
Yea separate loop is slightly more effort than it's worth for a first build. You should leave it like the first picture, maybe change around the order. I remember reading that in a high flow setup that the order doesn't matter that much though. Since the water temp would only be a difference of around 1-2 degrees. You're doing 1/2id right?

You sure you want to wc the chipsets? They dump extra heat and don't really give much more overclocking room compared to a good aftermarket heatpiped cooler (unless of course you're waaaaaaaaaaay overvolting).
 
You sure you want to wc the chipsets? They dump extra heat and don't really give much more overclocking room compared to a good aftermarket heatpiped cooler (unless of course you're waaaaaaaaaaay overvolting)
Click to expand...

Currently I am not overvolting at all, the only "real" Overclocking thing I have done to the CPU is flip the FSB from 333 to 400 (taking it from a 3.0 to 3.6). I would like to try and hit 4 Ghz if possible.

I am not sure if I want/need to do the chipsets (but the geek in me says yes, as usual ;) ) and am open to any suggestions on a good aftermarket heatpiped cooler.

I discovered a couple things today that could be considered setbacks but am hoping with input will be able to work around them.

My case does not have enough room for a triple radiator (IMO and hopefully I am wrong).

The Pictures below should show why (Yes I know my wiring is sloppy but its only my second build so give a guy a break :) ):

length.jpg


While at first glance it looks like I have room for a triple rad when you look at the circled area you realize that I actually have 4 inches (give or take based on where width wise I mount it) less than what is measured. I would prefer not to have to cut into the motherboard tray bracket unless absolutely necessary. Also the front 38mm fan takes out another 1.5 inches giving me only a total of around 16 inches of space for a rad. A possible solution to that would be to create my own L bracket connecting the two pieces (which may be the route I go)

In regards to the 38mm front intake fan, if I got rid of it (not something I think would be thermally best for the computer) or replaced it with a 25mm fan (more viable option) I could gain some space however I am not sure how to account for the space needed for the tubing itself.

height.jpg


I may be able to work around this one with using either a rad that is not to tall or smaller fans (such as 25mm's) so I am not extremely worried about it. I can also offset the rad more toward the other side of the case fixing any possible clearance issues (maybe :) ) The only major foreseeable issue could be clearance when I add an additional 4870x2 as while I may avoid the motherboard by moving it farther to one side, I can't do that with a graphics card.

width.jpg


I have a couple inches to play with as far as where to mount it width wise in the case so no issues here (that I can think of) but feel free to comment if you see any.

Yea separate loop is slightly more effort than it's worth for a first build. You should leave it like the first picture, maybe change around the order. I remember reading that in a high flow setup that the order doesn't matter that much though. Since the water temp would only be a difference of around 1-2 degrees. You're doing 1/2id right?
Click to expand...

As I am new to all this (hence the name) can someone please clarify what is meant by 1/2id?

So here is where I stand.

I need to find either a decent stealth 120.3 rad and use 25 mm fans (still want to try 38 if plausable) or I need to use a 120.2 rad and then find a way to mount another 120mm rad in the case (either at the back exhaust or front intake).

I have more questions but this post is long enough without them. :D

Any thoughts/suggestions/comments would be extremely appreciated.
 
Here are my idle temps (withstanding firefox running 5 sessions of HardOCP that is) :p

idle.jpg


while I realize (IMO) these temps are real good the overall use (once I get everything setup) for this rig will be for Graphic Design and Rendering/Animation. As a result it is going to be running 24/7 365 and will be in my bedroom (which I prefer to be quiet). Also with the amount of stress rending puts on everything I would like my room to not heat up like a sauna if possible

Edit: Realized the temps without giving you the ambient temp of the room was worthless LOL. Ambient temp is 66F which is around 18.8C

Merry Christmas everybody (in case I dont get on before then)
 
You're confused about watercooling and its ability to cool the CPU better than air cooling. It will not prevent your room from heating up more. Your CPU/GPU/etc. all put out the same amount of heat at all times, the different forms of cooling are just ways of moving the heat from the CPU to the air. Watercooling is more efficient at this process than air cooling, so it will move the heat generated by your components to the ambient air quicker and more efficiently than air cooling will.

That doesn't change the fact that your CPU is generating X amount of watts of heat, though. By getting better cooling, it may actually make your room heat up a bit more because the heat is transferred out of your components quicker. The only way to keep your room cool is using your air conditioner. No computer cooling system will lower the heat output of any component in your system. I hope this makes sense, this is a fairly common misconception that I've seen.
 
You're confused about watercooling and its ability to cool the CPU better than air cooling. It will not prevent your room from heating up more. Your CPU/GPU/etc. all put out the same amount of heat at all times, the different forms of cooling are just ways of moving the heat from the CPU to the air. Watercooling is more efficient at this process than air cooling, so it will move the heat generated by your components to the ambient air quicker and more efficiently than air cooling will.

That doesn't change the fact that your CPU is generating X amount of watts of heat, though. By getting better cooling, it may actually make your room heat up a bit more because the heat is transferred out of your components quicker. The only way to keep your room cool is using your air conditioner. No computer cooling system will lower the heat output of any component in your system. I hope this makes sense, this is a fairly common misconception that I've seen.
Click to expand...


Touche...dealmaster...touche. I wrote the last post quickly on my way out the door (where I should be now) . I am more concerned about the performance abilities of the CPU/GPU as I would like to keep them overclocked and perhaps go higher as the program I will be using the most 3dMax does indeed scale well with multiple cores (more than 2) Photoshop seems to stop scaling well after 2 but I do not have CS4 (yet) so I can't comment on that version. I am hoping to cut hours or more off render times by overclocking and in order to keep it all working good want to watercool. Hopefully that helps clarify. Off to the races I am....
 
n00b,

your case is almost 20" long, and there's 3.5" of space between the bottom floor and the bottom of the mobo tray.

The Black Ice Pro radiator is about 420mm long, about 17", and with a 38mm fan on it, only 2.5" thick. You can easily fit one down at the bottom if you re-locate that 3.5" bay, remove those fans, and cut away that silly mobo support (if your motherboard is wobbly after drilling that support out - you can re-inforce it with a 2$ L bracket from home depot, just drill 2/4 holes, thread them with a tap, and screw it in....).

If you don't mind 2000rpm 38mm fans, you'll be more than fine with this arrangement.

Or, you can fit a Thermochill radiator, at 50mm, and those same 38mm fans, so long as you pull the radiator closer to the window side (so the fans overlap over top of the mobo by 1-2mm).
 
Arcygenical said:
Or, you can fit a Thermochill radiator, at 50mm, and those same 38mm fans, so long as you pull the radiator closer to the window side (so the fans overlap over top of the mobo by 1-2mm).
Click to expand...

If I was to then add another 4870x2 and water cooled it would there be enough space between that second card (fit into the blue slot in the pictures) and the rad fans to allow for adequate airflow/dissipation?

Also you reference getting rid of the fans in the front. Does that include the front intake? I would think I would need that to keep some air moving within the case (but being new could be wrong on this and probably am)
 
Just stopping in to see how things are going for your project.

OMG All the dust!! =P
One option is to have the fans on the bottom and sit the radiator ontop. That way you can let the barb end of the radiator overlap that support bar. That should give you another inch or so.

What I mean by 1/2id is the tubing size. I mean 1/2in Inner Diameter. For a setup like yours, with so much high wattage stuff, you definently need 1/2id

The cooler on the P5E looks pretty beefy, why not just leave it? Or will you need to take it off for the top radiator? For me, at first I used a waterblock on my chipset as well but then I upgraded and had some clearance issues. So I had to hunt around for a solution. I ended up with these:
Northbridge - http://www.thermalright.com/new_a_p...hr05_sli/product_chitset_cooler_hr05_sli.html
Southbridge - http://www.evercool.com.tw/products/nca-610.htm

They cool my chipsets very well, passively. When I upgraded again and had room for the watercooler block I decided to keep using the coolers cause they worked so well. They don't look bad either. Just make sure you have enough clearance for them and that you motherboard is listed as supported. They have detailed measurements in the pages. From the looks of it, you should be fine with the HR-05 IFX. I couldn't use the HR-05 on my southbridge cause I have an upside-down case, where the CPU is at the bottom. The HR-05 might have gotten in the way of my cd-rom. Plus, I though the smaller one looked more in place for the southbridge.
 
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