Looking for a [H] UPS

[[Spectre]]

why is it overkill?

From experience I haven't seen enough times where a surge was passed through an online UPS to justify the additional cost in any case I can think of.

I thought those were the same technology, just licensed out by zero surge

Teh technology is basically the same, the prices may vary

what kind of surge protection do the Liebert GXT2 and Tripp Lite SU750XL units have?
is it MOV or series?

Most every UPS will be MOV based surge supression.

 

[dandragonrage]

Ummm...no if you daisy chain two UPS together quite often as soon as the first one goes into battery mode the second does as well thereby giving the exact same run time. Now plugging a UPS into a surge protector that shunts to ground during a surge causes a ground contamination that will trip the UPS and turn it off. Not FUD just the way it works.

No, the first UPS will provide power to the second UPS until the first runs out, and then the second will switch to battery. Also, my UPS works just fine with my power strip.

Try again.

 

[[Spectre]]

No, the first UPS will provide power to the second UPS until the first runs out, and then the second will switch to battery. Also, my UPS works just fine with my power strip.

Try again.

Look that isn't the way it works, and I really don't know what your problem is but when the second UPS "sees" the distorted output of the first UPS that occurs in the majority of UPS outputs it goes directly to battery as well. That is how they work. That is why units with expandible runtime have battery packs that plug directly into the unit.

As for your UPS working off a surge protector it either a) doesn't shunt to ground or b) your UPS isn't working properly.

 

[dandragonrage]

Okay, that MAY be the case with lower quality UPSes. I don't know. I don't screw around with my equipment (other than the cheap APC that just runs my cable modem, switch, router). But it can not be said without that condition because it DOES work with mine.

 

[EnderW]

From experience I haven't seen enough times where a surge was passed through an online UPS to justify the additional cost in any case I can think of.



Teh technology is basically the same, the prices may vary



Most every UPS will be MOV based surge supression.

Thanks for all the answers.

I've got a few more questions.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the main benefit of double conversion UPS units is the power they output when running from the battery is cleaner than regular units.

I definitely want a series surge protector, so would it make sense to just get a high quality, single conversion unit?
Would be less expensive and not as noisy.
Any recommendations for specific models?
And is online another term for double conversion or does it refer to something else?

Someone on another forum mentioned that improperly grounded coax cable could be the source of damage to cable modems and routers.
Also, what are my options for protecting against surges through the coax cable?

Thanks.

 

[FLECOM]

Ummm...no if you daisy chain two UPS together quite often as soon as the first one goes into battery mode the second does as well thereby giving the exact same run time. Now plugging a UPS into a surge protector that shunts to ground during a surge causes a ground contamination that will trip the UPS and turn it off. Not FUD just the way it works.

Look that isn't the way it works, and I really don't know what your problem is but when the second UPS "sees" the distorted output of the first UPS that occurs in the majority of UPS outputs it goes directly to battery as well. That is how they work. That is why units with expandible runtime have battery packs that plug directly into the unit.

As for your UPS working off a surge protector it either a) doesn't shunt to ground or b) your UPS isn't working properly.

this isnt always true... during hurricane katrina i was trying to keep my weather station and the pc it was hooked up to running... i had a backups 350 pluggined into a smartUPS 1000 plugged into a smartups 1400 and it worked fine... when the 1400 finally gave up the 1000 took over, and the 350 last... pretty much lasted through the whole storm and got lots of great data

also i have a smartups 1400 and smartups 1000 plugged into a tripplite isobar and it works fine

 

[[Spectre]]

this isnt always true... during hurricane katrina i was trying to keep my weather station and the pc it was hooked up to running... i had a backups 350 pluggined into a smartUPS 1000 plugged into a smartups 1400 and it worked fine... when the 1400 finally gave up the 1000 took over, and the 350 last... pretty much lasted through the whole storm and got lots of great data

also i have a smartups 1400 and smartups 1000 plugged into a tripplite isobar and it works fine

Like I said for most since most produce a distorted AC output. The highend SmartUPS and such don't but those are a severe minority of home users. Its a rule of thumb that is true for the vast majority of units on the market and rather than listing the exceptions that can be done with it is much easier for people to spec units that actually meet their needs and are properly sized to begin with.

 

[[Spectre]]

Thanks for all the answers.

I've got a few more questions.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the main benefit of double conversion UPS units is the power they output when running from the battery is cleaner than regular units.

After a fashion it is. They are true sinewave outputs though there is some debate about whether or not the extra effort required to produce it is wasteful as the waveform is recitifed in the power supply anyway and that squared sinewaves actaully remain at charging longer given the squared off top and bottom of the wave. I think I included that in the sticky.

I will say this though if it has a motor like my fish tank filters they seem to run warmer and louder on modified sine UPS.

I definitely want a series surge protector, so would it make sense to just get a high quality, single conversion unit?
Would be less expensive and not as noisy.
Any recommendations for specific models?
And is online another term for double conversion or does it refer to something else?

You aren't going to find a lot of single conversion units out there lately.

As for the difference:
http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1029407519&postcount=2

I'd stick with the models that were recommended back at the beginning.

Someone on another forum mentioned that improperly grounded coax cable could be the source of damage to cable modems and routers.
Also, what are my options for protecting against surges through the coax cable?

Thanks.

You can get inline coax surge protectors and some of the more home theatre based series mode surge protectors will have them.

 

[EnderW]

I will say this though if it has a motor like my fish tank filters they seem to run warmer and louder on modified sine UPS.

Modified sine is from the double conversion ones, right?

You can get inline coax surge protectors and some of the more home theatre based series mode surge protectors will have them.

Know of any specific models?
I didn't see anything from Zerosurge, SurgeX, or brickwall.

 

[[Spectre]]

Modified sine is from the double conversion ones, right?

I haven't seen any online double conversion units that I can remember being stepped/modfied/squared sine. They are normally pure sine. Though there could be the odd example I don't know out there.

Know of any specific models?
I didn't see anything from Zerosurge, SurgeX, or brickwall.

The inline ones are all over google. For series mode I think I remember Brickwall or Furman having one. I sent an email to find out who it was again.

 

[EnderW]

I haven't seen any online double conversion units that I can remember being stepped/modfied/squared sine. They are normally pure sine. Though there could be the odd example I don't know out there.

OK, so your motors ran louder when using "regular" not pure sine wave UPS units?

The inline ones are all over google. For series mode I think I remember Brickwall or Furman having one. I sent an email to find out who it was again.

I didn't see anything at brickwall, but their site is really slow.
Furman has a ton of stuff, still trying to sort through it all.

 

[[Spectre]]

OK, so your motors ran louder when using "regular" not pure sine wave UPS units?

Yeah I'm cheap and the line-interactive units are good enough for anything I have at home that needs a UPS.

 

[[Spectre]]

Furman has a ton of stuff, still trying to sort through it all.

It is Furman PST-8 (and above) models I was thinking of. Sorry it took a bit to get to that.

 

[EnderW]

It is Furman PST-8 (and above) models I was thinking of. Sorry it took a bit to get to that.

Can you explain their description in layman's terms?
It mentions series and MOV

120 VAC - Series Multi-Stage Protection (SMP) with a high current TVZ-MOV- Non-sacrificial with zero ground contamination
(188 V peak clamping @ 6000V 3000A input)
Extreme Voltage Shutdown (EVS) (>135 VAC)
Telco
Cable/Satellite (less than .1dB insertion loss) (2 pairs)

 

[FLECOM]

Like I said for most since most produce a distorted AC output. The highend SmartUPS and such don't but those are a severe minority of home users. Its a rule of thumb that is true for the vast majority of units on the market and rather than listing the exceptions that can be done with it is much easier for people to spec units that actually meet their needs and are properly sized to begin with.

ah ok, well i just wanted to post my expierence with the only time ive ever daisy chained UPS'...

now i just have extended batteries on the important UPS' since its kind of silly to daisy chain them to begin with... was more of an emergency situation tho...

i am still curious about the power strip thing, it isnt the first time i have heard it is bad to plug power strips into ups' or ups' into power strips... is there something special about my smartups' or my isobar which lets it work?

the only time i have plugged a power strip into a ups are like PDU's but those dont have any surge protection so im sure those are ok...

 

[[Spectre]]

Can you explain their description in layman's terms?
It mentions series and MOV

In the Furman they are using a high current MOV after the surge suppression stage. MOV's have their place in equipment it just isn't the best primary surge supression method.

 

[EnderW]

In the Furman they are using a high current MOV after the surge suppression stage. MOV's have their place in equipment it just isn't the best primary surge supression method.

OK. The price on the Furman seems very competitive with the Zerosurge/SurgeX/Brickwall units, but is it as good?
All the others are a lot bigger and meaner looking

Also, since there is MOV, I'm guessing plugging a UPS into it would be a no no?

 

[[Spectre]]

OK. The price on the Furman seems very competitive with the Zerosurge/SurgeX/Brickwall units, but is it as good?
All the others are a lot bigger and meaner looking

Also, since there is MOV, I'm guessing plugging a UPS into it would be a no no?

They don't shunt to ground so if you are going to plug a UPS into one it shouldn't be a problem.

As for quality.......I don't have any personal experience with Furman's I usually use Brickwall. But their reputation is good in their specialty so I wouldn't be nervous about trying them out.

 

[Skud]

Most of the cheaper UPS's will produce a "square" or "stepped" wave instead of a pure sine wave. I know that before I really got into power conditioning I had an el-cheapo 500va UPS. When it went on battery it would make my monitor buzz quite loudly.

There are also issues with plugging UPSs into one another. I assume that again it comes down to a square vs. sine wave. Some UPSs don't like a square wave input and will continually switch from main input to battery. This is also true for generators. The higher-end UPSs will be labeled as "generator friendly" and I would guess this means that they will accept a square or modified sine wave input.

I think that if your computer equipment is *expecting* and was *designed for* a pure sine wave coming into it, then you should get a UPS that provides one..

Riley