Little Demand for Microsoft's Surface RT Tablet

[Ocellaris]

Free MS office and slightly bigger screen like 12.1 inch. I wonder what is MS's logic for setting such high price?

Probably to cover the cost of Office.

 

[pelo]

First you say that NPD report included sales of Surface RT which it COULDN'T have because Microsoft hasn't released those numbers.

Sorry, about this I was mistaken.

Secondly you say that end user licenses are down when Microsoft reported that Windows 8 upgrades are outpacing Windows 7 at this point.

End user licenses include sales and upgrades. Upgrades via MS as standalone downloads (or bought via retail Win8 boxes) are up over Win7, but that's based on the 40m figure that includes volume licenses and most of those are OEM sales.

What does this mean?

Well, consumers are buying fewer Win8 devices than Win7 ones last year (-9% desktop and -24% laptop), so there's a large stock of Win8 devices sitting on store and retailers' shelves waiting to be bought. Those are all included in MS's 40million Win8 licenses sold figure.

Yep. MS and its OEMs managed to sell fewer devices after the release of a brand new operating system than they had sold the previous year. Spurring on the OEMs and exciting the traditional PC market it hasn't done. Abandoned it is probably a more apt description.

Then when I quote the NPD report saying that touchscreen notebook sales were strong (NPD's words, not mine) you then point out the 24% year-over-year decline in notebook sales in that NPD reporting ignoring that fact there were virtually ZERO touchscreen notebook sales in retail last year.

Touchscreen notebooks still make up a slim portion of all notebook sales. The ASP has increased, but the margins haven't - neither for MS nor for OEMs. The bill of materials and ASPs (average selling price) increases because you've got additional hardware to tack on to the machine; in the case of laptops you've now got to add on a touch sensitive display as well as a chip to take care of that, along with the glass required to protect it, and perhaps even a better display given that it's going to be a focal point of the experience. These things have increased the BoM (bill of materials) of the touchscreen notebook when compared to your average non-touchscreen notebook.

The sales of touchscreen notebooks have increased because there were practically zero touchscreen capable notebooks the previous year. That's a sort of "no shit" blatantly obvious point that you've apparently glossed over. You'd expect an increase here.

But what about the actual sales figures? Well, they're down 24%. Yep, 24% year-over-year. Windows 8 and its new devices, both touchscreen and not, have managed to decrease notebook sales by nearly a quarter.

 

[KENNYB]

So its sad that there's a variety of devices with different capabilities? And if it is very possible that the Surface Pro isn't even the device that many would want because of cost and battery life, a Clover Trail device might suite them better.

All I was saying is that there are options that need to be explained to people and understood. I bet a lot of people who think they need to runs Windows programs don't even need too.

It's sad that after customers are told that the Surface RT doesn't run desktop apps they usually walk out of the store. That's a sale lost. You've probably never worked in retail trying to sell a product.

Customers have an expectation just by seeing "Windows". MS should have probably called Windows RT something entirely different similar to how Apple doesn't call iOS OS X lite.

 

[heatlesssun]

Sorry, about this I was mistaken.

Fair enough, it's not like we all don't do this.

The sales of touchscreen notebooks have increased because there were practically zero touchscreen capable notebooks the previous year. That's a sort of "no shit" blatantly obvious point that you've apparently glossed over. You'd expect an increase here.

Huh? How did I gloss over the very thing I pointed out? I said specially that there were virtually no touchscreen laptop sales in retail last year. Again, NPD said that touchscreen laptop sales were strong and pointed it out as a bright spot. Argue with them if you have a problem with their report which you have been quoting every piece that's negative but for some reason have a problems with the positive parts.

 

[KENNYB]

Of course. Microsoft is too late and people don't care. There are too many other (better) choices, like the Kindle Fire HD, Nexus 7 and iPad and soon to be Firefox OS.

I don't think it's too late. I think the race isn't over yet. However, MS needs to give people compelling reason to switch. Look at it this way: What if Google had released the Nexus 7 at a higher price and tried to turn a tidy profit? Would it have been as successful?

 

[pelo]

Huh? How did I gloss over the very thing I pointed out? I said specially that there were virtually no touchscreen laptop sales in retail last year. Again, NPD said that touchscreen laptop sales were strong and pointed it out as a bright spot. Argue with them if you have a problem with their report which you have been quoting every piece that's negative but for some reason have a problems with the positive parts.

Merely having more touchscreen notebooks means you're going to have more touchscreen notebooks sold. What I'm saying is that you can't claim that it's a bright spot when there are limited available options for touchscreen notebooks and those few that are available and "sold well" haven't been able to make up for the -24% decrease in overall notebook sales.

The bright spot the NPD pointed out was also coupled with the higher ASPs, but that's attributed to costlier hardware and a higher BoM, which in a market that's seen a decrease of sales by a quarter year-over-year, means even slimmer margins.

For example, can you state that touchscreen notebooks would be a good market for OEMs to invest heavily in? Not really, considering the higher price tags and just as, if not slimmer margins.

Bear in mind that that tablet sales are expected to increase 60% year-over-year during the holiday season//Q4 and overtake laptops with no sign of slowing.

 

[heatlesssun]

Merely having more touchscreen notebooks means you're going to have more touchscreen notebooks sold. What I'm saying is that you can't claim that it's a bright spot when there are limited available options for touchscreen notebooks and those few that are available and "sold well" haven't been able to make up for the -24% decrease in overall notebook sales.

The bright spot the NPD pointed out was also coupled with the higher ASPs, but that's attributed to costlier hardware and a higher BoM, which in a market that's seen a decrease of sales by a quarter year-over-year, means even slimmer margins.

Again, you're not arguing with me but the report that you are cherry picking.

For example, can you state that touchscreen notebooks would be a good market for OEMs to invest heavily in? Not really, considering the higher price tags and just as, if not slimmer margins.

They went from zero to 6% instantly. You seem to be trying to turn something the report you keep mentioning as a bright spot as a negative.

Bear in mind that that tablet sales are expected to increase 60% year-over-year during the holiday season//Q4 and overtake laptops with no sign of slowing.

And the high growth rates is why we have Windows 8 and why the Start Menu was replaced.

 

[heatlesssun]

I don't think it's too late. I think the race isn't over yet. However, MS needs to give people compelling reason to switch. Look at it this way: What if Google had released the Nexus 7 at a higher price and tried to turn a tidy profit? Would it have been as successful?

But Google is trying to turn a tidy profit with ads and selling services. And again, I don't see how you can expect Microsoft to undercut it's partners in pricing.

 

[pelo]

They went from zero to 6% instantly. You seem to be trying to turn something the report you keep mentioning as a bright spot as a negative.

You can get to 6% a lot easier when you're selling 24% fewer notebooks. That's my point. I'm not cherry picking, but rather NPD is when they're attempting to pull out a figure and see it as a positive in a quickly decreasing market with slimmer margins.

It's like claiming Win8 tablets were a success because they've improved drastically upon the Windows 7 based tablets but ignoring the overall sales figures.

Yes, they sold more of that particular product, but they also sold far fewer devices.

 

[heatlesssun]

You can get to 6% a lot easier when you're selling 24% fewer notebooks. That's my point. I'm not cherry picking, but rather NPD is when they're attempting to pull out a figure and see it as a positive in a quickly decreasing market with slimmer margins.

Wait a second, you just can't use ASP to determine that the margins are slimmer on touchscreen laptops. You have an ASP for ALL laptops but not of touchscreen devices. You're constantly saying things that you simply don't have the data to say as fact as you tend to do.

It's like claiming Win8 tablets were a success because they've improved drastically upon the Windows 7 based tablets but ignoring the overall sales figures.

Yes, they sold more of that particular product, but they also sold far fewer devices.

I'm not denying that they are selling far fewer devices overall but you seem to think that the devices that are selling well are out in the retail channel in large quantity and they aren't. Part of them problem here is a lack of supply, particularly Clover Tablets. It's five weeks later and these devices are still almost a no show in retail stores with the exception of the Samsung Ativ 500T. You can't sell what's not available to buy.

 

[pelo]

The ASP includes the BoM. Higher BoM = higher ASP; that much should be a given.

The margins decreasing in a diminishing market shouldn't be news either. Fewer notebooks sold = sitting on the shelf longer = more writeoffs and lowered prices to clear stock.

Moving to higher priced Ultrabook/thin style laptops also means decreasing margins, as those are already operating at sub-7% and have even higher BoMs and thus ASPs - and even lower sales figures. Intel had sales targets for Ultrabooks and it looks like the actual sales figures won't even reach 20% of what the target was. Again, this is due to high price.

 

[heatlesssun]

The ASP includes the BoM. Higher BoM = higher ASP; that much should be a given.

The margins decreasing in a diminishing market shouldn't be news either. Fewer notebooks sold = sitting on the shelf longer = more writeoffs and lowered prices to clear stock.

Moving to higher priced Ultrabook/thin style laptops also means decreasing margins, as those are already operating at sub-7% and have even higher BoMs and thus ASPs - and even lower sales figures. Intel had sales targets for Ultrabooks and it looks like the actual sales figures won't even reach 20% of what the target was. Again, this is due to high price.

"The strong performance of Windows 8 notebooks with touchscreens, where Windows 8 truly shines, offers some reason for optimism. These products accounted for 6 percent of Windows 8 notebook sales at an average price of $867 helping to re-establish a premium segment to the Windows consumer notebook market."
Average selling prices of Windows computing devices have jumped significantly this year. Last year, overall ASP was $433 while this year's ASP over the past four weeks has risen to $477. Windows 8 notebooks have seen a nearly $80 rise in selling prices versus the prior year, propelled by the aforementioned strong performance of touchscreen devices and a solid uptick in the pricing on mainstream notebooks. Windows 8 desktop ASPs were also strong with selling prices up nearly 10 percent, driven by the same factors as notebook sales.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/11/29/npd-pc-sales-down-microsoft-bears-the-brunt/

Actually this report does include the ASP of touchscreen laptops, it's almost double that of the overall market. You have the ASPs but you don't have the BoM prices, not from this report. Do you have BoM prices for any Windows 8 touchscreen laptop?

 

[KENNYB]

But Google is trying to turn a tidy profit with ads and selling services. And again, I don't see how you can expect Microsoft to undercut it's partners in pricing.

First of all, Google isn't turning a tidy profit on ads and selling services on the Nexus 7. They hope to. That's a big difference. You want to talk about turning a tidy profit look at the iPad.

Second, you're assuming something I never stated. MS needs to provide a compelling reason for users to switch. For the Nexus 7, the biggest reason is price. Not all apps are optimized for tablets and this reason is still constantly mentioned during reviews.

You're assuming that I meant MS should lower the price. Wrong.

 

[pelo]

Well it's not lower...

The touchscreen laptops are also in Ultrabook form factor, heatless. The figures include laptops like the Yoga 13 and other slim Ultrabook-like form factors that have a sky high BoM and ASP anyway. Those are the products operating at slim margins that also don't represent a large total of overall sales figures.

Average selling prices of Windows computing devices have jumped significantly this year. Last year, overall ASP was $433 while this year's ASP over the past four weeks has risen to $477. Windows 8 notebooks have seen a nearly $80 rise in selling prices versus the prior year, propelled by the aforementioned strong performance of touchscreen devices and a solid uptick in the pricing on mainstream notebooks. Windows 8 desktop ASPs were also strong with selling prices up nearly 10 percent, driven by the same factors as notebook sales.

That's $80 overall, meaning despite an approximately double selling price, the devices sold few in number such that they didn't drastically affect the ASP of all notebooks sold.

Gunning for the high end isn't the solution, heatless. You know that. Intel tried this with Ultrabooks already and those sales figures are appalling, so I'm not sure how adding a touch screen is supposed to make a $800 netbook that hasn't been selling well at all now suddenly more much more attractive.

They, Intel and MS both, need to really think this through. People are done paying for >$1000 notebooks unless it's got an Apple logo on it. The sales figures reflect that

 

[heatlesssun]

The touchscreen laptops are also in Ultrabook form factor, heatless.

This makes no sense as a touchscreen on laptop has nothing to do with it being an ultrabook.

The figures include laptops like the Yoga 13 and other slim Ultrabook-like form factors that have a sky high BoM and ASP anyway. Those are the products operating at slim margins that also don't represent a large total of overall sales figures.

You keep saying this and all I am saying is provide some evidence that says that ultrabooks and touchscreen laptops are operating at lower margins than conventional machines.

Gunning for the high end isn't the solution, heatless. You know that. Intel tried this with Ultrabooks already and those sales figures are appalling, so I'm not sure how adding a touch screen is supposed to make a $800 netbook that hasn't been selling well at all now suddenly more much more attractive.

That cheap plastic crap isn't doing so well either. Down 24% remember.

They, Intel and MS both, need to really think this through. People are done paying for >$1000 notebooks unless it's got an Apple logo on it. The sales figures reflect that

Well there certainly are a good number of Windows devices are the market that sell for $1000+, someone much be buying them.

 

[pelo]

An Ultrabook with a touchscreen is a touchscreen laptop.

As far as paper thin margins, here you go:

http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2011/11/30/ultrabook_prices_drop/

The high cost of the machines’ parts, especially Intel’s Ultraprocessor chips—which account for 25 percent of the total cost of an ultrabook—has driven prices for many models to well over $1,000, hurting sales.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-08-23/ultrabooks-a-slow-start-for-the-latest-ipad-rival

The next step for mass-market acceptance is for prices to come down. Dell recently added a midrange machine, the Inspiron, that sells for $700. In May, Lenovo announced superthin laptops that start at $720. Peter Hortensius, a senior vice president for Lenovo, predicts that lower prices resulting from less-expensive components will help ultrabooks account for about 25 percent to 30 percent of Lenovo’s laptop sales next year.

As prices drop, though, the PC vendors face a challenge. Apple can enjoy fat profit margins on its products not just because of its elegant design and high performance but also because of its admired brand. That’s not something other computer makers can match. Asian rivals run the risk of falling into the same sort of commodity trap they were aiming to escape. “Everybody is going to be fighting on price,” says IDC’s Ma. “They’re not Apple.”

There are some Ultrabooks that are priced closer to $700, but considering how many people don't want to spend more than $500 for a new laptop, there is still plenty of room to cut costs. Intel is working hard to help manufacturers slice component costs -- such as devising cheaper, yet still rigid plastic chassis to replace pricier metal chassis -- and they already use hybrid SSD/hard drive storage in lieu of pure SSD solutions to shave costs off lower-priced Ultrabooks.

But there's one component Intel doesn't seem as interested in seeing come in with a lower price: its own processors used to power Ultrabooks. Businessweek says the Intel processor accounts for around 25 percent of the total cost of an Ultrabook, and there's no indication that the company is willing to cut that cost for its manufacturing partners.

http://www.zdnet.com/ultrabooks-are...-sales-high-prices-still-to-blame-7000003597/

The OEMs flat out said "No" to the plastics Intel proposed.

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Acer-U...ing-at-razor-thin-profit-margins.71512.0.html

According to The Verge, Acer representative Christoph Pohlmann claims that Acer Ultrabooks return very low profit margins. In fact, only the premium-priced higher-end Aspire S3 models can turn out any sort of profit at all.

Regardless of the bad news, Acer Global President Jianren Weng is still aiming for cheaper Ultrabooks dropping below $800 or even $700 in the future. Perhaps more surprisingly, the company would be ready to sell Ultrabooks at a loss in order to better compete with other vendors, specifically Apple. This is in contrast to the rather about face paradigm of wanting to sell notebooks at higher prices for higher margins that Acer expressed in early 2011.

The price on chips hasn't decreased much, if at all, since then. Intel has kept Ivy prices stagnant despite producing more chips-per-wafer, and even with high yields they'd rather let fab capacity idle than lower profit margins on their processors. Even still, Intel's stock has dipped below $20 and decreased ~25% since Q2 this year. Recently Qualcomm leapfrogged Intel in market cap and now it's actually spreading that gap.

Ultrabooks aren't the answer unless the prices come down. Thus far, Intel has said No, and Sharp, LG, Samsung have declined to decrease the price of displays by a significant margin (remember they've got a nice monopoly going).

 

[XamediX]

First of all, Google isn't turning a tidy profit on ads and selling services on the Nexus 7. They hope to. That's a big difference. You want to talk about turning a tidy profit look at the iPad.

Second, you're assuming something I never stated. MS needs to provide a compelling reason for users to switch. For the Nexus 7, the biggest reason is price. Not all apps are optimized for tablets and this reason is still constantly mentioned during reviews.

You're assuming that I meant MS should lower the price. Wrong.

I don;t know if you noticed but your wording is making it easy for someone to make that deduction. You stated "MS needs to provide a compelling reason..." then the very next sentence you state "For the Nexus 7, the biggest reason is price." So what am I the reader supposed to get from that? Cause that heavily insinsuates that they need to be more price competitive which is directly at odds with the reasons heartless pointed out already.

 

[wonderfield]

Second, you're assuming something I never stated. MS needs to provide a compelling reason for users to switch.

I believe they think this 'compelling reason' is Office. Curiously, showing Office isn't really an integral piece of the Surface marketing campaign. In fact, I'm not entirely sure I've seen a Surface ad where Office was even clearly visible, let alone effectively demonstrated.

Unless Microsoft genuinely believes that the kickstand is what truly defines the Surface, and the reason why people should buy one, I think it's safe to call their marketing efforts a miss.

 

[heatlesssun]

An Ultrabook with a touchscreen is a touchscreen laptop.

I don't know exactly how we got from the NPD report noting strong sales of touchscreen laptops. I took the report for what it was, both good and bad. Obviously you reject the parts that were positive.

 

[pelo]

I don't know exactly how we got from the NPD report noting strong sales of touchscreen laptops. I took the report for what it was, both good and bad. Obviously you reject the parts that were positive.

FFS, it's not positive when sales are down 24%. How in the hell can you possibly derive a positive from that? And the small bump in touchscreen laptop sales is derived from Ultrabook-like products with already razor thin margins and poor sales figures.

 

[heatlesssun]

FFS, it's not positive when sales are down 24%. How in the hell can you possibly derive a positive from that? And the small bump in touchscreen laptop sales is derived from Ultrabook-like products with already razor thin margins and poor sales figures.

Take your FFS and point it at NPD, I didn't say this they did:

"The strong performance of Windows 8 notebooks with touchscreens, where Windows 8 truly shines, offers some reason for optimism. These products accounted for 6 percent of Windows 8 notebook sales at an average price of $867 helping to re-establish a premium segment to the Windows consumer notebook market."
Average selling prices of Windows computing devices have jumped significantly this year. Last year, overall ASP was $433 while this year's ASP over the past four weeks has risen to $477. Windows 8 notebooks have seen a nearly $80 rise in selling prices versus the prior year, propelled by the aforementioned strong performance of touchscreen devices and a solid uptick in the pricing on mainstream notebooks. Windows 8 desktop ASPs were also strong with selling prices up nearly 10 percent, driven by the same factors as notebook sales.

You clearly are not willing to take what they said as a whole, that's on you, not me.

 

[pelo]

You clearly are not willing to take what they said as a whole, that's on you, not me.

I'm taking it as a whole, but I'm not neglecting to overlook the poor sales figures of high-priced premium notebooks.

NPD's claim is that there might be a glimmer of hope in high end touchscreen capable notebooks because of that small bump in sales and high price, but the margins aren't any better (in fact they're worse) and the sales figures there have been poor as well.

It's not like I haven't done my research here...

 

[heatlesssun]

I'm taking it as a whole, but I'm not neglecting to overlook the poor sales figures of high-priced premium notebooks.

NPD's claim is that there might be a glimmer of hope in high end touchscreen capable notebooks because of that small bump in sales and high price, but the margins aren't any better (in fact they're worse) and the sales figures there have been poor as well.

It's not like I haven't done my research here...

Clearly you're not taking this report as a whole. You're saying that sales figures for touchscreen laptops are poor that NPD called strong (again, their words, not mine) and you're implying that OEMs are making less money are these devices which the NPD didn't say anything about and if OEMs are making less money on a segment that NPD called strong then why believe anything that this NPD report is saying? How could this report fail to mention that the area of growth they saw is less profitable when they when they noted the increase in ASPs?

Bottom line from this NPD report:

1. Thus far Windows 8 has failed to not only spur growth in device sales but that device sales are down substantially.
2. It's still too early to say that this was because of Windows 8.
3. Touchscreen laptops did well in an otherwise dreary market.
4. ASPs across laptops and desktops is up.
5. There's still the bulk of the holiday season that remains to be see at the time of this report for the performance of Windows 8 device sales.

This is what the report said, period and I've taken no issue with it. You have however refused to accept point 3. Fine, but I'm accepting the report as a whole and you're not. It's that simple. You might be right about point 3, but you're at odds with one of the points of the report and I'm not.

 

[heatlesssun]

Well if at first you don't succeed, try, try again: http://www.winbeta.org/news/rumor-mill-microsoft-release-three-new-surface-tablets-2013

An AMD design in the mix, that's interesting. What's absent still though is an Atom design, it is interesting that Microsoft seems to be ignoring that platform.

 

[InternationalHat]

The surface pro has a very very small actual market. The applications and/or use cases that require the full feature set of Windows more often than not require or at least work a lot better with keyboard/mouse input. Actually doing "work" requires a lot more input than consuming media/being a toy, which is what tablets are typically best at accomplishing. You end up needing a bunch of peripherals and then you just have this huge tablet with tons of things plugged into it. It's inelegant.

It's really going to be a problem for them. They've fragmented their core product and it's showing. The surface devices feel incomplete, expensive, and are really only worthwhile for a tiny segment of the population.

MS will be fine though, they have enough money to absorb a hit from this. Win 8 will probably still sell well, but I can't even imagine a universe where it makes a sizable dent in the tablet market in any real way.

 

[heatlesssun]

Actually doing "work" requires a lot more input than consuming media/being a toy, which is what tablets are typically best at accomplishing. You end up needing a bunch of peripherals and then you just have this huge tablet with tons of things plugged into it. It's inelegant.

I think the hybrid concept, if not the implementations to date, can be pretty elegant. A folding keyboard dock when you want a laptop, a desktop dock when you want to work on a big screen and a pure tablet when you want read in bed or take notes with a pen in class. You really don't have to carry anything more than you need or want.

There's plenty of rough sports to work on, pricing, hardware quality and design, but I do think in time it will Windows 8's ability for single devices to serve a lot of needs that will make it successful if it is successful. I think that's why OEMs overall like the idea of Windows 8 as it gives them the opportunity to sell a whole new generation of hardware, hardware that no one has right now.

 

[dr.kevin]

When we all saw the $499 price tag, we all knew it was going to flop.

including a low quality 720p back camera is a joke too. At this price, consumers expect the best parts.

and no, Surface RT didn't flop because people are waiting for the Surface Pro. The Pro will flop just as well.

 

[wonderfield]

Given their unrealistic expectations on the Surface RT, I'd say it's a safe bet that the Pro will miss internal projections.

 

[heatlesssun]

and no, Surface RT didn't flop because people are waiting for the Surface Pro. The Pro will flop just as well.

I don't know what Microsoft's internal projects are for the Pro, but I think the Pro should be able to do well for what this device is. It's a niche market but there is a market for this kind of hardware that won't have an issue with the price or battery life as long as it's well built, speedy and the pen performance is solid and can support apps like Photoshop.

 

[pelo]

I think the hybrid concept, if not the implementations to date, can be pretty elegant. A folding keyboard dock when you want a laptop, a desktop dock when you want to work on a big screen and a pure tablet when you want read in bed or take notes with a pen in class. You really don't have to carry anything more than you need or want.

There's plenty of rough sports to work on, pricing, hardware quality and design, but I do think in time it will Windows 8's ability for single devices to serve a lot of needs that will make it successful if it is successful. I think that's why OEMs overall like the idea of Windows 8 as it gives them the opportunity to sell a whole new generation of hardware, hardware that no one has right now.

The idea itself is very forward thinking and I think is almost certainly the general direction for the industry as a whole. I can definitely foresee a tablet/phone you carry around, dock and then start typing away on your keyboard and mousing around all over the place.

MS's current issue isn't so much the OS (though they need some work there. OS level DPI scaling, pretty please? Who the hell wants a 1080p 10" tablet when your own god damn browser can't handle DPI scaling properly?!), but rather the pricing and their current business model. They don't make hardware and have a heavy dependence on anything x86, which means legacy programs requiring high CPU performance and shitty battery life, along with sky high prices are the norm. MS and their OEMs are getting bent over by the cost of the hardware, or the cost of the hardware + OS pricing. MS needs to charge for their OS unlike Android and iOS which are essentially free (pretty much free).

Those are two huge drawbacks and they're reflected in the current pricing. You can get away with a Qualcomm Snapdragon S4 on a tablet on Android or an A6/A5x for iOS, but you need more horsepower for Windows and it really needs x86 legacy support to leverage its "It's also a productivity device!" shtick. You just can't do that effectively with an Atom just yet and even when Bay Trail hits in 2013-2014, the price is going to be higher anyway.

Rosepoint is important because of Intel's dillema as it enters the smartphone SoC space. Most high-end smartphone SoCs sell in the $14 - $25 range, a significant reduction compared to the $50 - $1000 Intel is used to getting for CPUs. Even if you look at smartphone-sized x86 CPUs, Intel can typically get somewhere between $50 - $100 for the CPU. Then add another $20 - $30 for the chipset and margins start looking very nice. Intel can't guarantee > 60% margins selling ~$20 smartphone SoCs. At the same time, Intel based smartphones wouldn't sell very well if they were significantly more expensive than the competition. This puts Intel in a difficult position: settle for lower margins (and upset wallstreet) or figure out a way to offer more value by integrating other parts of the bill of materials.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5554/...ore-atom-soc-with-integrated-wifi-transceiver

Intel has already shown they will do anything they possibly can in order to maintain their high margins, and if it means their OEMs getting shafted with the Ultrabook model then so be it. Microsoft needs to take note and wake up

 

[KENNYB]

I don;t know if you noticed but your wording is making it easy for someone to make that deduction. You stated "MS needs to provide a compelling reason..." then the very next sentence you state "For the Nexus 7, the biggest reason is price." So what am I the reader supposed to get from that? Cause that heavily insinsuates that they need to be more price competitive which is directly at odds with the reasons heartless pointed out already.

People that have been following MS and the Surface like I know heatless has knows that MS doesn't want to undercut OEMs. Google chose price. What is MS going to chose? Is that better?

Heatless seems to habitually answer every post as if he needs to defend MS at every turn.

 

[KENNYB]

I believe they think this 'compelling reason' is Office. Curiously, showing Office isn't really an integral piece of the Surface marketing campaign. In fact, I'm not entirely sure I've seen a Surface ad where Office was even clearly visible, let alone effectively demonstrated.

I thought so too until I tried to use it. I thought to myself, why would I want to use this instead of my laptop?

Unless Microsoft genuinely believes that the kickstand is what truly defines the Surface, and the reason why people should buy one, I think it's safe to call their marketing efforts a miss.

The Windows 8 commercial with a young girl drawing on the screen shows more usage than the dancing-to-the-beat-of-a-keyboard-snap Surface commercial. This would be funny if I was making this up.

 

[heatlesssun]

Those are two huge drawbacks and they're reflected in the current pricing. You can get away with a Qualcomm Snapdragon S4 on a tablet on Android or an A6/A5x for iOS, but you need more horsepower for Windows and it really needs x86 legacy support to leverage its "It's also a productivity device!" shtick. You just can't do that effectively with an Atom just yet and even when Bay Trail hits in 2013-2014, the price is going to be higher anyway.

It all depends on the apps that you're trying to run and how much power you need. I don't know why you keep on characterizing a platform that you've never used but Clover Trail devices should be perfectly fine for plenty of desktop work loads centered around email, office automation, desktop and web based business apps, video playback etc. I've been doing some very heavy workloads with 500T and overall it's been pretty solid. No it's not the fastest thing out there but I bet there's plenty of people running Office and business apps on older PCs with less performance than what Clover Trail devices can deliver.

How many mobile OS tablets can do this?

I was working on a 85 page word document the other day and watching the latest episodes Battlestar Galactica Blood & Chrome at 1080P quality and it ran very well, not perfectly smooth but perfectly usable. And this sucker will just run and run and run on the battery and weighs only about 4 ounces more than the latest iPad. Some of the Clover Trails actually weigh a bit less from the specs I've seen. It's damned impressive to see multiscreen desktop setup run on basically phone/tablet level computing hardware and run effectively.

Not trying to get into another debate with where you post a zillion links to benchmarks and reviews of guys who probably never even tried to hook their 500T to an external monitor. I put in an USB Bluetooth transceiver as the issue you linked to about slow WiFi connections seems to be tied to having both WiFi and BT radios on, something Samsung needs to address no doubt but the performance and range of this USB BT radio is so much better than the internal radio I'll probably just keep using it. Regardless a nice option to have that you'd normally not have on a mobile OS tablet.

 

[wonderfield]

I believe this falls pretty plainly into the category of 'doing something for the sake of doing it'. A WinRT tablet, running on the battery, on a desk, next to an outlet, next to one or more full-fledged Windows PCs that could have been doing what the tablet was doing.

I guess the tagline here is "if you want to do something for the sake of doing it, and not because it makes practical sense, choose Windows RT!"

 

[KENNYB]

^^^ Hahahaha... that reminds me of a co-worker that has a TV in every room. Just because you can doesn't make you enlightened.

 

[heatlesssun]

I believe this falls pretty plainly into the category of 'doing something for the sake of doing it'. A WinRT tablet, running on the battery, on a desk, next to an outlet, next to one or more full-fledged Windows PCs that could have been doing what the tablet was doing.

I guess the tagline here is "if you want to do something for the sake of doing it, and not because it makes practical sense, choose Windows RT!"

First of all this isn’t a Windows RT device, it is a Windows 8 x86 Clover Trail Atom device which you would have known if you read the post instead of posting just something for the sake of it. Secondly, it’s called testing.

^^^ Hahahaha... that reminds me of a co-worker that has a TV in every room. Just because you can doesn't make you enlightened.

So now actual hands on experience and testing of hardware is doesn't make on more enlightened? Enlighten me please?

I've noticed that there's a lot of Windows 8 opponents that are coming up with the idea that practical experience and actual use of technology has no value in understanding that technology with is very odd in a place called [H]ardForum.

 

[wonderfield]

No, it's called "marketing". There's a difference.

 

[PornoSatan]

First of all this isn’t a Windows RT device, it is a Windows 8 x86 Clover Trail Atom device which you would have known if you read the post instead of posting just something for the sake of it. Secondly, it’s called testing.



So now actual hands on experience and testing of hardware is doesn't make on more enlightened? Enlighten me please?

I've noticed that there's a lot of Windows 8 opponents that are coming up with the idea that practical experience and actual use of technology has no value in understanding that technology with is very odd in a place called [H]ardForum.

You notice everyone is for technological improvement right? The reason people hate on Windows 8 is because there is merit. No one complained about Windows 7 for example. Change for the sake of change sucks if it doesn't bring anything meaningful to the table and Windows 8 really is backwards in many ways. Drastic UI changes like removing the start menu, and then adding the dreaded Ribbon UI, shame on MS.

 

[nOrVow]

Stuff `n shit

Holy fucking jeebus, it doesn't matter how much a tablet can do, if it's impractical and useless people won't give a damn. You honestly the average masses are willing to go through all of those nuances just to do what you've display here? Let alone have the need to even care? Windows 7 works, it makes sense, and it's conceptually familiar. There's no need for Windows 8 other than shoving a Windows store down peoples throats (The real reason for windows 8).

You're just doing shit for the sake of doing it... a typical symptom of the Shiny New Shit Syndrome.

One does not simply "work and play". What an oxymoron. lol

 

[heatlesssun]

No, it's called "marketing". There's a difference.

Coming from a person that didn't even correctly identify the device or OS must mean that some "marketing" is needed around here. In any case, I did not know that actual testing and real world use was considered a bad thing. I guess just throwing up a bunch of benchmarks and guessing about what hardware can do is what [H]ardForum is about these days.