List your frustrations with Linux

[ScourggeFX]

If there is one MAJOR problem I have with linux, its that its damn difficult installing a lot of software and making it work. My biggest problem is with Drivers: specifically ATI. 4 hrs installing a driver and not having it work still is just too much work.

 

[Josh_B]

Originally posted by ScourggeFX
If there is one MAJOR problem I have with linux, its that its damn difficult installing a lot of software and making it work. My biggest problem is with Drivers: specifically ATI. 4 hrs installing a driver and not having it work still is just too much work.

ATI + Linux = teh ghey!

 

[eeyrjmr]

I dont have a prob with the installation of progs (quite like manual compiling)

but my biggest gripe is once a program is installed the lack of standardisation between different comiling/installing directories.

Soem install to /opt some to /usr/local some to /usr/lib some to...

I hate having just waited say 10min to compile something and do not know where the installation is

so I then have to do a #locate -u to update my locate database and "locate" where it was written to.

I recently installed enemy-territory and didnt know what the command to run it was, this was a goodun cause it placed a link in /usr/games so nice a logical but the instalation files (which I was interested) were not in a standard place

sorry for teh rant

 

[Kriegführung]

Originally posted by eeyrjmr
I dont have a prob with the installation of progs (quite like manual compiling)

but my biggest gripe is once a program is installed the lack of standardisation between different comiling/installing directories.

Definitely a big problem with me also.

I run Linux with ATI with not a single problem. Games play great and very responsive.

 

[XOR != OR]

My biggest beef: Documentation.

Sure, for the most used stuff documentation abounds ( right or wrong, I might add ). But for some of the stuff I use, jabber and qmail to be specific, you'd better hope you don't run in to any problems, or you are sol.

Example: I tried to install qmail on RH9 when it first came out. Now, I've done this plenty of times, but this time, for some reason, I got auth errors in my esmtp routine. I spent a very frustrating week trying to figure this out, and never did. BUT, I did get yelled at by most of the people on the checkpasswd mailing list ( I traced the problem to there ) for not understanding how checkpasswd works.

Never did figure out that problem, even with all my googling. Eventually, I went back to an OS I knew would work, slackware.

 

[eloj]

qmail is a bitch to admin, I suggest exim instead.

 

[ScourggeFX]

I hear the Discovery pack from Mandrake makes life a lot easier by installing a lot of plugins where they should go; including the Ati GL driver. Getting things to work is fun, but only for a while. After that it becomes a nuisance.

 

[Kriegführung]

So true. It gets tiring trying to research every product you install because they put files in separate places.

 

[XOR != OR]

Originally posted by eloj
qmail is a bitch to admin, I suggest exim instead.

Actually, it's not. qmail is dead easy to admin, once you know how.

Granted, I haven't tried exim and I wouldn't touch sendmail if you paid me, but I simply can not see how it could be any easier to run an email server than with qmail.

Especially with the way I have it setup.

 

[MTB2Live Live4Comps]

my only gripe with linux is the lack of certain hardware support, or the full support of it. This isn't really Linux's problem, but rather ignorance or cheapness of hardware companies.

I have no problems with installation or uninstallation (gentoo portage handles it all perfectly for me - and portage works on (probably) any distro as my friend proved with slackware and redhat 8)

3d acceleration? ATI Drivers 3.7.0 work perfectly for me on a Radeon 9000 Pro. No complaints, took about 15 minutes to set up (mostly cause TV out only works in clone mode and i had to experiment to figure this out). I helped setting up 3d acceleration on my friend's geforce 4 ti yesterday, all was smoth - i twas impressed.
i should qualify that - it's using the xfree86.org server. i wish 3d acceleration was supported on the freedesktop.org server...rock on eye candy and speeeeeeeed!

 

[scapegoat]

what distro are you using and what hardware do you have (mobo, exact video card, etc)

I have gotten my ati drivers working with mandrake 9.2 and slackware 9.1 with the asus a7n8x (non deluxe) with my ati 9500 pro without any problems.


wifi is what makes me bad in linux

 

[GreNME]

My biggest beef: Documentation.

Preaching to the choir, brotha.

And not only that, I agree with your "it's not hard, once you know how" line as well. Sure, there are plenty of things that are not hard about Linux, but being able to know how to do them is a lot more tiresome than just understanding how to run a certain command or find such-and-such menu or something. It involves things going to a very specific place under certain conditions, but if x is not in that condition, then it must be done completely different. Pain. In. My. Ass. (especially when they don't exactly tell you that)

On top of that, I get tired of being talked to like a Linux programmer, since I am not a Linux programmer. I'm not stupid, but a lot of the documentation sure makes me feel that way. Why do I want to bother with stuff that's over my head with no explanation? A lot of the documentation may as well have been written in Swahili.

 

[NewBlackDak]

I have to run Quark and Photoshop under Wine.

Not enough game support!!!
Not enough game support!!!
Not enough game support!!!
Not enough game support!!!

 

[ImaRootofALLEVIL]

my only problem is most companies make drivers and apps for linux and not *bsd, i have the worst time getting some things to run correctly even with the linux compatibility (which just so happens to run stuff faster than linux)

 

[jpmkm]

Originally posted by MTB2Live,Live4Comps
my only gripe with linux is the lack of certain hardware support, or the full support of it. This isn't really Linux's problem, but rather ignorance or cheapness of hardware companies.

I have no problems with installation or uninstallation (gentoo portage handles it all perfectly for me - and portage works on (probably) any distro as my friend proved with slackware and redhat 8)

3d acceleration? ATI Drivers 3.7.0 work perfectly for me on a Radeon 9000 Pro. No complaints, took about 15 minutes to set up (mostly cause TV out only works in clone mode and i had to experiment to figure this out). I helped setting up 3d acceleration on my friend's geforce 4 ti yesterday, all was smoth - i twas impressed.
i should qualify that - it's using the xfree86.org server. i wish 3d acceleration was supported on the freedesktop.org server...rock on eye candy and speeeeeeeed!

I thought that 3.7.0 was a typo, but I just checked and it's in portage. I'm getting close to only getting 4 hours of sleep as it is so I might leave that until tomorrow. I couldn't ever get the tv out working on my 8500le with 3.2.8. My biggest gripe is the amount of time it takes getting some stuff to work. Searching usenet, forums, the web, trying to figure out what I need to do to get a particular piece of hardware to work, and then it only works about 80%. For day to day stuff though it is great.

 

[vbp6us]

Originally posted by ScourggeFX
If there is one MAJOR problem I have with linux, its that its damn difficult installing a lot of software and making it work. My biggest problem is with Drivers: specifically ATI. 4 hrs installing a driver and not having it work still is just too much work.

Three letters for you, RPM. I managed to get an SQL, Web, and FTP server up without a hitch but when it came to an email server, my balls were crushed. Ive tried it all. NOTHING worked for me! I kind of gave up.

I used to run lots of cool stuff on my nifty 400mhz SuSE 8.1 server. Come to think of it, im going to build another one.

Linux is really easy as long as you don't overlook things. That's what Ive learned from it.

 

[GreNME]

Linux is really easy as long as you don't overlook things. That's what Ive learned from it.

Now, what I've learned from it is that Linux won't work unless you oversee everything.

 

[eeyrjmr]

Now, what I've learned from it is that Linux won't work unless you oversee everything.

ha soo true. At least with Gentoo if it changes /etc files it will tell you it has made a file with the changes so it doesnt rewrite yr /etc/fstab with the standard template if you have installed updates ext2fs packages

At least we have teh ability to know what is going on - what is the alternative - {not starting a MS bashing session here}

 

[GreNME]

But that's just it: I don't need to know every little thing. In fact, I don't want to know every little thing, or even have to know those things to get the whole working correctly. The less work required, the better for most people.

 

[eeyrjmr]

Well stick with MAndrake and RPM packages. I used MAndrake for quite a few years and they have pretty much removed needed low-level editing to get it working.

However, if you want to have a look you can. I learnt soo much abt how comps work when I started using linux

 

[zeitgeist]

My complaints are still the same ones I stated a year ago or more;

Drivers. Drivers. Drivers. An example; ATI + Linux still equates to something akin to homosexual fornication. It may work, but it just ain't right.

Ease of installation and customizability. For everything. All those people out there screaming and preaching about the merits of switching to Linux from Windows, well this one is aimed directly at you. The commandline may go a long way to making you feel "l33t" but it also goes a long way when it comes to turning off alot of potential Penguiners.

Not enough support for games.

 

[eeyrjmr]

Its not linux's fault abt support for games. It is the game developers who use DirectX and also those that use OpenGL who dont port over the core game

 

[zeitgeist]

Originally posted by eeyrjmr
Its not linux's fault abt support for games. It is the game developers who use DirectX and also those that use OpenGL who dont port over the core game

I never claimed it was the fault of the OS. The things I posted are the things that I would most like to see improved upon exponentially over the next few years.

 

[GreNME]

Originally posted by eeyrjmr
Well stick with MAndrake and RPM packages. I used MAndrake for quite a few years and they have pretty much removed needed low-level editing to get it working.

However, if you want to have a look you can. I learnt soo much abt how comps work when I started using linux

Whatever. Thanks for the "you're using the wrong distro" line that I have only heard a million times for every distro out there. And once again, Linux does not make you more knowledgable about the computer. It forces you to follow up on every little change you make on a computer, including installs, because if anything goes wrong, it's always your own fault.

Why are you replying to everyone in defense for things people are frustrated about in this thread anyway? I don't think anyone here has attacked Linux. And I have yet to see something said in here that wasn't based very much on fact. And just a side note, not really important—can you please spell out the whole word for "about"?

 

[Josh_B]

Originally posted by GreNME
Linux does not make you more knowledgable about the computer./B]

Sure it does. How many windows users know how to specify an IRQ, I/O port, and driver for a network card? Better yet, how many of them actually know what an IRQ is?

While case studies are not strong evidence, I will say that I know more about PC architecture now than I did when I used to love Windows 2000... mostly because, yes, you HAVE TO know more about the hardware and OS. Windows and Linux have many of the same mechanisms by virtue of the fact that they work on the same hardware, and are both multitasking, multithreaded, multi-user OS'. The difference is with Linux, you learn how it all works - it's open.

Furthermore, I am so sick of people's ignorant attitudes towards life. There are those who want to learn, and those who are content staying in the dark, mostly because it's just "easier". An interesting book on this subject is "Zen, and the art of motorcycle maintenance".

Thanks for coming out.

 

[Abysmal]

My biggest gripes are fonts and the handling of fonts. It feels very amateur. Actually most of Linux feels very amateur

 

[XOR != OR]

Originally posted by GreNME
Now, what I've learned from it is that Linux won't work unless you oversee everything.

I'm not sure i understand. I have email servers and web servers out there that I haven't touched in almost a year. They auto update themselves nightly, and are programed to send me an email if anything bad comes up ( I got an email once after an update that changed a tripwired file, so I got an alert from trip wire. However, I have another script that checks to see which files are updated, and if one of them is a tripwire file, it rebuilds the signature database. So it was nothing I had to actually touch ).

 

[jpmkm]

Originally posted by GreNME
It forces you to follow up on every little change you make on a computer, including installs, because if anything goes wrong, it's always your own fault.

So would you rather have stuff break on its own, and then just blame it on someone else? It's your computer, you should be able to control it. If you mess up something, then it absolutely is your own fault.

 

[GreNME]

Originally posted by Josh_B
Sure it does. How many windows users know how to specify an IRQ, I/O port, and driver for a network card? Better yet, how many of them actually know what an IRQ is?

I'd bet more than do Linux users. While Linux users may have a higher percentage of users who do, their 1% of the market assures that they do not have more anything than the 95+% Win world. Who the hell cares about IRQs anyway? That's a ridiculous argument for "I know more about computers."

While case studies are not strong evidence, I will say that I know more about PC architecture now than I did when I used to love Windows 2000... mostly because, yes, you HAVE TO know more about the hardware and OS. Windows and Linux have many of the same mechanisms by virtue of the fact that they work on the same hardware, and are both multitasking, multithreaded, multi-user OS'. The difference is with Linux, you learn how it all works - it's open.

You don't learn because it's "open." Like you yourself said, you learn because you HAVE TO.

Furthermore, I am so sick of people's ignorant attitudes towards life. There are those who want to learn, and those who are content staying in the dark, mostly because it's just "easier". An interesting book on this subject is "Zen, and the art of motorcycle maintenance".

Thanks for coming out.

A computer is a tool. It is not a way of life. A computer is a tool. I do not have to define myself by my tools. A computer is a tool. I use tools to more easily accomplish tasks. A computer is a tool.

Are you getting the point yet? I don't care how wonderful you think Linux has made you with computers. I can still do more, and do it faster, on a Windows or even a Mac machine. They don't require me to understand the ins and outs of IP chains to set up a shared internet connection (very basic router)—the work is already done. I don't need to deal with interrupts and busses in 2K/XP, that's what a hardware abstraction layer is there for.

Originally posted by XOR != OR
I'm not sure i understand. I have email servers and web servers out there that I haven't touched in almost a year. They auto update themselves nightly, and are programed to send me an email if anything bad comes up ( I got an email once after an update that changed a tripwired file, so I got an alert from trip wire. However, I have another script that checks to see which files are updated, and if one of them is a tripwire file, it rebuilds the signature database. So it was nothing I had to actually touch ).

Yeah, I have mine set to run jobs regularly, too. I have it on my web server, as well. However, I had to actually program the scripts to do it, which would be annoying if I didn't already want to learn more about (script) programming. Incidentally, there are still many things that XP and OS X don't do automagically as well, and they are also royal pains in the keister. However, all in all, Linux seems to have more of these occurances than any other OS I use.

And if I want to install something that I read about? Well, I have to go back and make sure I have everything in the dependencies, because no two *nix installs are the same, and even though people are getting better at using the most common libraries, not everyone does still. Things are getting better, but are still far more of a pain with regard to making sure all of your ducks are in a row before making software and hardware changes. Once things are changed, in place, and set, it works dandy. It's the getting there that is tedious and frustrating.


Basically, it all has to do with time: I like my time, and since I'm no longer a kid or even a young adult, I have other things to do with my time than sit in front of a computer, sifting through man pages, trying to figure out exactly how to get something I thought would be cool to try out to run without problems. In some cases, this is not a problem in Linux. In many cases, it is. I simply don't have the time to sit there and play with code. No, it's not the fault of Linux itself, it has to do with the poor standardization and nearly no SOP for development on the operating system. However, it all adds up to an unrewarding user experience, even for someone who knows plenty about computers in general, and really wants to get more hands-on time with Linux.

Who was it that said something to the effect of, "Linux is as 'free' as your time is?" My time is getting less and less free, which makes working on the OS less and less rewarding.

 

[GreNME]

Hee hee

Originally posted by jpmkm
So would you rather have stuff break on its own, and then just blame it on someone else? It's your computer, you should be able to control it. If you mess up something, then it absolutely is your own fault.

Riiiiight. So, I guess this means you write your own drivers, you build every new module and software right into the OS, and compile whenver you add the slightest little thing, right?



Really, I don't need to hear more of this "control it" stuff. I can control every OS I run as much as I wish to. However, there are more things I want the OS to control, so I don't have to babysit it.

 

[jpmkm]

Originally posted by GreNME
Hee hee


Riiiiight. So, I guess this means you write your own drivers, you build every new module and software right into the OS, and compile whenver you add the slightest little thing, right?



Really, I don't need to hear more of this "control it" stuff. I can control every OS I run as much as I wish to. However, there are more things I want the OS to control, so I don't have to babysit it.

Exactly. Well, I don't write my own drivers, but I will recompile the kernel if I need to, and I do tend to compile drivers into the kernel rather than building modules. I like knowing what is happening with my computer. When you start having the os try to decide and do everything for you, you get a bloated, buggy piece of shit like windows. You don't have to babysit Linux, you just have to know what you are doing. You do have to babysit windows, because when it tries to do everything for you, it will eventually fuck things up so badly that you have either do a hardcore cleaning or just format and reinstall. There's a big thread right now about all the maintanence people do to their computers, and they all have to run adaware and defrag and regcleaner and shit. It's obscene.

 

[GreNME]

I like knowing what is happening with my computer. When you start having the os try to decide and do everything for you, you get a bloated, buggy piece of shit like windows.

Once again,

Whatever. I didn't come on to this thread saying Windows is better than Linux. I prefer Windows because it makes what I do in normal usage easier, even though I use multiple platforms.

Do me a favor and stop the "Microsoft sucks" crap. One person's "bloat" is another person's usability. The same administration can be done on a desktop Windows install as on a desktop Linux install.

 

[ScourggeFX]

I hope some Linux software developer is taking note of this. The Tvtime rpm is an example of how software should work -- just double-click on it and it runs itself. No CLI, no dependencies missing, no looking for stuff in etc/bin/.......

 

[jpmkm]

Originally posted by GreNME
Once again,

Whatever. I didn't come on to this thread saying Windows is better than Linux. I prefer Windows because it makes what I do in normal usage easier, even though I use multiple platforms.

Do me a favor and stop the "Microsoft sucks" crap. One person's "bloat" is another person's usability. The same administration can be done on a desktop Windows install as on a desktop Linux install.

I'm sorry about that. I didn't mean to make it sound like a windows vs. linux thing or a microsoft sucks thing, I was just using windows as an example in a comparison. The same could be said for, well, er... I can't think of any other bloated and buggy operating systems. I didn't intend for this to turn into an argument and it seems to be drifting somewhat offtopic.

 

[[H]EMI_426]

The user base.

It seems like modern, hand-holding, GUIfied distributions are cranking out "admins" that can't find their ass with both hands when something really breaks. "X won't start! Time to reinstall..." "What do I do? My bootloader isn't working any more." "This is a .tar.gz; I don't know how to install those." I support this stuff all the time and those are just a few examples of the questions I hear.

This isn't always the case...There are people that are actually learning how to handle their machines as more than users. It just seems like the whole push to put Linux everywhere is lowering the overall ability of the average Linux user.

I don't mean to offend the people that actually have a clue. I just wish the clueless ones would go somewhere else. It wouldn't disturb me so much if this was commonplace among people that only use the OS for certain things, but I see people that claim to have administrative experience asking completely inane, easily-solvable/researchable questions all the time.

I use FreeBSD. I sit in some FreeBSD channels on IRC (irc.freenode.net, if anyone's ever there). It seems like more and more we get Linux users curious about FreeBSD that expect us to just answer the simplest questions for them without them having done any prior research. What's the deal? Are people afraid of trying to solve their own problems? The Handbook is there for a reason, but they don't seem willing to work for a solution on their own.

Let's not get started on the "1337" Linux users that love to DDoS people, etc. and don't really have a clue how their exploit works. They think they are hard-core cause they can run a script. I see stuff like that a lot on IRC.

 

[jpmkm]

I agree with hemi. I think it can be summed up in one phrase: create an idiot-proof interface and all you get is dumber idiots. Well, it somewhat applies to this situation. I'm all for linux on the desktop, but I don't want to deal with all the questions like you were talking about. My girlfriend wants me to put linux on her computer because windows just plain pisses her off, but with me being 150 miles away at school I don't want to mess with it. I just can't do telephone tech support. I need to sit down and fix it myself instead of having her kinda tell me what is wrong and then trying to tell her to do stuff that she doesn't understand. Just had an idea. Some company should do linux support, but before you can get support you have to take some sort of basic linux/computer education class and a test or something, like how you have to take a driving test before you can get a driver's license.

 

[GreNME]

[H]emi, I agree with a lot of what you say about the common user base cranking out admins who don't know how the actual tech they admin works, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you about the GUI thing. It's not the interface that is making them less knowledgable, it's the idea that just because something is easy, they shouldn't have to worry about how it works even though they are being paid to know. I contract my admin work for a consultant, and we handle different environments for each client. It's easy to see the slipshod and half-ass ways that many try to take to look like they are getting things done (and is even more annoying having to fix them). But the interface has nothing to do with it. If anything, it's the tech boom where everyone thought the newest goldmine was in computers three years ago was what did it. People got into it, didn't make the millions they envisioned, and got lazy. Just like any other work, you have to love what you do to be able to keep doing it. Money isn't enough incentive to make people be thorough.

Graphic interface is the way to go, because text interface is clunky, slow, and counter-intuitive. Now, for those who want to argue that 3-D is the way to go, there is simply not enough basis to judge when considering even the highest-end hardware available, even on levels far above consumer level. However, there is plenty of basis to say that a GUI is more efficient than a CLI. The fact that we are posting on a website instead of USENET or other older (and less precise) forums is a simple example of how graphic interface aids in better communication and task completion. Even better is that not everyone has to understand completely how it works, which adds to the efficiency a level of ease that makes it more accessible. Text has a way of obfuscating things where graphic visualization can clear them up.

Frankly, anyone who claims that every user should know how to recompile their kernel is a pretentious, elitist shmuck, IMNSHO.

And jpmkm, if you really think your girlfriend is too dumb to run Linux, why don't you just tell her that? It gets really annoying hearing and reading about people who think that just because everyone else doesn't like spending hours on end in a command line or editing every other file in the etc/ is just stupid. Just because you like it does not make you smarter or better.

And for the last time, Windows is not bloated, no matter what the popular "1337" crowd likes to think (neither is Red Hat or Mandrake). They include everything a user needs to do as much with as little hassle—just because you like doing things the hard way does not make you better.

 

[eeyrjmr]

WTF !!!!

GreNME

Why are you replying to everyone in defense for things people are frustrated about in this thread anyway?

you hypocrite what have you just been doing!!!!!! just on the MS troll angle

GreNME

can you please spell out the whole word for "about"?

who the hell are you to tell me how to spell/write. There is no racial slur/derogatory terminology and no-one was harmed in my standard engineering use of words.




You have some real attitude problems. The title of this thread is " List your frustrations with Linux" frustrations have been posted. I replied to some other ppl posts (oh sorry just for you ppl = people !!!!) to provide another view on their gripes. All you have done is bash linux and it complexity. Windows is also complex if you go to the right part of the OS.

And as to insulting jpmkm girlfriend WTF!!!!.
Let me tell you something my lass uses linux, only because If I am on linux and she needs to do something she will just use it. And before you ask She is a phamasist for the NHS and next to no understanding of a calculator let alone windows. It is ok for me cause I am only in the nx room and can help her with only the minor gripes she has with it. jpmkm is in a different situation.


Sorry ScourggeFX on behalf of some ppl for your thread turning into some sort of war ground due to some ppl. I was looking foward to seeing what frustration people have with linux until this thread was destroyed

 

[jpmkm]

Originally posted by GreNME
And jpmkm, if you really think your girlfriend is too dumb to run Linux, why don't you just tell her that? It gets really annoying hearing and reading about people who think that just because everyone else doesn't like spending hours on end in a command line or editing every other file in the etc/ is just stupid. Just because you like it does not make you smarter or better.

And for the last time, Windows is not bloated, no matter what the popular "1337" crowd likes to think (neither is Red Hat or Mandrake). They include everything a user needs to do as much with as little hassle—just because you like doing things the hard way does not make you better.

Go fuck yourself. She simply has not used linux, so it would be completely new to her, so she would be calling me asking how to do things. I already told her straight up that I don't want to put linux on her computer because I didn't want to be getting calls from her all the time about it. If you had never seen a car before, you wouldn't even know which pedel is the throttle and which pedel is the brake. At least she can accept the fact that windows sucks.
If an operating system includes everything that a user would need, then it is bloated. I understand you use windows because it is easier for you, but quit saying that it isn't bloated. Nobody believes you.

 

[MTB2Live Live4Comps]

alright guys. can we please stop the shitting in a perfectly good thread?

lol i can even turn this into support for gentoo. the community is so great, full of many knowledgeable people. you just don't see the imature flame wars as much, if at all.

personally, i say use what you find most efficient. As said by somebody, the computer is a tool. to me, linux is the way for me to maximize it's efficiency. Did it take a while to learn and setup? yes. i won't deny that. but i can say my experience has been great, i've learned a lot, and it's been very worth it. see, there was the 4 month period where i dual booted. windows when i needed it for school, and then linux when i wanted to play around and learn.
when i just purchased my new system a few weeks ago, i took a full weekend to set it up and install software. a few more long nights over the holiday break. a good deal of time playing around, configuring, swearing at times :-D, compiling, reconfiguring, reading docs, experimenting. it took a lot of time, yes. the same maybe 2 or 3 hours you spend on getting your xp box up to speed after a clean format? not even close. however, with what i've learned, i never have to think about dealing with it again. everything works AS I WANT IT, nothing else. everything gets updated automatically, and configuration saved. best of all, everythign works. period. i don't even have to think about it anymore. fcron and a few scripts i wrote handle it all now. i look at it as putting all the work in the beginning to save your ass later.
this is why i like gentoo so much. i have control over everything, and i need to understand it. and because of this, everythign works how I want it - not somebody off at redhat. that's the choice of the distrobution. if you don't want that - are willing to sacrifice some so you can conform and follow what somebody else has put their time into, then there are alternate choices.
i don't we should be bashing each other because one thing works better or worse than another. if it works for your needs, be happy. why storm somebody because they don't follow what you find best? yes, i think you should inform them of what you think is a better way - argue for it. maybe they'll like it and be thankful. but don't slam them because of what they use and find efficient. we all have a right to our own opinion, and opinion isn't fact.

my thoughts spilled out on paper