Linus Torvalds Doesn't Like Bad Code

Zarathustra[H];1041945768 said:
Well, that and the fact that a lot of people contributing to Open Source projects don't necessarily have computer science degrees.

Unlike in a business where you can choose to not hire someone who writes shit code, there is very little stopping a self taught "1337 coder" who over optimizes, under-comments, and in general follows bad form in their code from submitting a patch.

The problems arise when whomever is reviewing the patches doesn't catch it, and it somehow makes its way into a project.

The Open Source community has gotten much better though in this regard over the years. I think the whole re-coding of Xfree in the early days of Xorg in 2005 or so, into its current modular format helped highlight how poor coding practices can - over time - really hurt a project, and make it unmanageable.

Linus Torvalds is right for calling out poor code, and not moving forward with it. He really ought to do it more constructively though.

The whole Open Source community has become WAY to toxic, driving a way a lot of good talent, who otherwise could have made some amazing contributions.
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I agree except. I am taking my FIRST college level CS class never having taking one before.

1. I hate coding.
2. Do no have a passion for it.

And even I can tell that code looks like shit if I turned something like that in I would get D.
 
Zarathustra[H];1041945719 said:
It really is time for him to go.

People like Linus Torvalds are one of the reasons why open source communities are so toxic.

We owe him the existance of Linux, and I am thankful for all his work over the years. I have personally benefitted from it. We just need people with better inter personal skills working on these projects, or they will just wind up pissing people off and going nowhere.

There are ways to drive home the message about good coding home without being an asshole.

You know, reject a patch, and in the comments provide CONSTRUCTIVE feedback.

There is a reason Linus Torvalds sticks to the Open Source community. He wouldn't last a week in business with that attitude.
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Yes people who are passionate and tell it like it is certainly don't last long in business. I mean certainly people like Jack Welch, Steve Jobs, Andy Grove, et al certainly failed at that whole business thing. Christ, look at just about any fortune 500 company or any very successful financial company and you'll find a BSD on top.

Somewhere this idea of kumbaya makes companies successful started to percolate up. Its basically a myth. Sure the Finnish military might of taken the direct approach to the extreme, but direct approaches are how things actually get done.

And christ, all Linus does in that post is tell them its broken, tells them why its broken, and tells them to never do it again. If that gets people feathers in a tither, then they wouldn't survive an actual real project.
 
adamantine.me said:
There's a difference between being a "straight shooter" or blunt, and being professional and tactful.

From OP's snippet, Linus is venting and raging a little without contributing back to what he is knocking down. Pissed with the quality of work being submitted recently? Take a breath, bite your tongue, and make an announcement at the beginning of next week. To be a leader is to remain composed and inspired a higher standard - not going on tirades like a child when something isn't going your way.

That said, he can do what he wants, I guess. But Linus shouldn't complain when contributors and volunteers start to dwindle, increasing the burden on whoever is left.
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yeah sure, lets delay the whole train for an extra week because feelings... He not venting and raging, he's making sure that a problem gets fixed and doesn't re-occur. He's setting the standards he wants and demands and if people don't like it, they can fork it and do the work themselves. No one is locked into Linus, but he so far the best solution of all others that have tried.

As far as contributors and volunteers, there are many more lining up to take the places of any that leave.
 
All I have to say is that there's a way to be professionally brutal, and still maintain a personal gentleness. Linus clearly doesn't have that, and he probably doesn't care to. That's too bad. There's no reason he can't absolutely demolish that coder's code without being an asshole in the process.
 
I know people who go nuts from staring at PC screens all day under florescent lights he probably just has eyestrain he needs some Luten.
 
Darunion said:
Being rude and being polite get to the same end result
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Not always. People, largely, tend to be utterly clueless.

And you can spend all your time special-snowflaking them and engaging in long, deep discussions that do nothing but waste your time or you can say "It's shit, try again!" and move on to the next merge.
 
adamantine.me said:
There's a difference between being a "straight shooter" or blunt, and being professional and tactful.

From OP's snippet, Linus is venting and raging a little without contributing back to what he is knocking down. Pissed with the quality of work being submitted recently? Take a breath, bite your tongue, and make an announcement at the beginning of next week. To be a leader is to remain composed and inspired a higher standard - not going on tirades like a child when something isn't going your way.

That said, he can do what he wants, I guess. But Linus shouldn't complain when contributors and volunteers start to dwindle, increasing the burden on whoever is left.
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Read the actual post by Linus. It's more than "It's shit, go away."

He discusses why it's bad, puts forth a basic example that does what is needed without any foofery, and lays out why he doesn't want to see this sort of thing in the future.
 
aaronspink said:
Yes people who are passionate and tell it like it is certainly don't last long in business. I mean certainly people like Jack Welch, Steve Jobs, Andy Grove, et al certainly failed at that whole business thing. Christ, look at just about any fortune 500 company or any very successful financial company and you'll find a BSD on top.

Somewhere this idea of kumbaya makes companies successful started to percolate up. Its basically a myth. Sure the Finnish military might of taken the direct approach to the extreme, but direct approaches are how things actually get done.

And christ, all Linus does in that post is tell them its broken, tells them why its broken, and tells them to never do it again. If that gets people feathers in a tither, then they wouldn't survive an actual real project.
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Direct approach and being a total jerk are not one and the same. Amazing how we do not like to be spoken down to but then people actually think it is a good thing when done to others? Often, you can get some of the best work out of people by encouraging them, not berating them. (In fact, you will never get their best work as long as all you do is berate them.)
 
ManofGod said:
Direct approach and being a total jerk are not one and the same. Amazing how we do not like to be spoken down to but then people actually think it is a good thing when done to others? Often, you can get some of the best work out of people by encouraging them, not berating them. (In fact, you will never get their best work as long as all you do is berate them.)
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Ok, so we should encourage them when they screw up. Good to know, I'm sure that reinforcement won't backfire at all. Linus doesn't just call people out, he calls out screw ups, points out why its a screw up, and that these screw up shouldn't happen and won't be accepted.

And the difference between direct and jerk is all a matter of perspective.
 
aaronspink said:
Ok, so we should encourage them when they screw up. Good to know, I'm sure that reinforcement won't backfire at all. Linus doesn't just call people out, he calls out screw ups, points out why its a screw up, and that these screw up shouldn't happen and won't be accepted.

And the difference between direct and jerk is all a matter of perspective.
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*SHOCK, SUPRISE* Someone did not really read what I said or thinks it is ok to berate someone no matter what. Why do we not just beat people over the head with a baton every time they screw up, eh? Oh, and being a jerk is being a jerk, there is no matter of perspective there. Direct approach and being a jerk are never the same no matter what someone may want to justify.
 
aaronspink said:
Yes people who are passionate and tell it like it is certainly don't last long in business. I mean certainly people like Jack Welch, Steve Jobs, Andy Grove, et al certainly failed at that whole business thing. Christ, look at just about any fortune 500 company or any very successful financial company and you'll find a BSD on top.

Somewhere this idea of kumbaya makes companies successful started to percolate up. Its basically a myth. Sure the Finnish military might of taken the direct approach to the extreme, but direct approaches are how things actually get done.

And christ, all Linus does in that post is tell them its broken, tells them why its broken, and tells them to never do it again. If that gets people feathers in a tither, then they wouldn't survive an actual real project.
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BSD? Big Sexy Dick?
 
aaronspink said:
Ok, so we should encourage them when they screw up.
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Encourage them to do better. That's what good leaders do isn't it? Sure things can get nasty sometimes, that's life. But even when they do if someone thinks they're just being berated to make someone else look or feel better then nothing constructive has been achieved and you've simply created distrust and tension. This is teamwork 101.
 
You know what?

Sending the code back or rejecting it because (in a level conversational tone) "it is not up to standards, and here is why: Please fix it and resubmit." is perfectly fine. It is blunt, straight talk, and doesn't beat around the bush. It also doesn't resort to name calling, cursing or yelling, and remains professional.

No one is expecting Linus Torvalds to hand them a participation trophy. The expectation is just that he doesn't act like a big baby having a nerd rage tantrum every time something isn't perfect.
 
Zarathustra[H];1041948246 said:
Sending the code back or rejecting it because (in a level conversational tone) "it is not up to standards, and here is why: Please fix it and resubmit." is perfectly fine. It is blunt, straight talk, and doesn't beat around the bush. It also doesn't resort to name calling, cursing or yelling, and remains professional.
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And that is all there is to it. When did being professional become coddling?
 
fuck yeah, linus - dont ever change.

theres a shit ton of mediocrity out there, but everyone wants respect and positive reinforcement for it. fuck that.

if youre a beginner, a supportive community is a huge help. if you ever want to advance to god-tier, someone is going to shit all over you and you better be able to wipe it off and keep working. if you truly want to do well, how the criticism is given to you is irrelevant - its the argument he/she makes that matters.

like it or not, linus is expressing himself which actually communicates a shit ton more than being PC or professional. maybe you dont speak his language. maybe thats a you problem.
 
cinnamonandgravy said:
if youre a beginner, a supportive community is a huge help. if you ever want to advance to god-tier, someone is going to shit all over you and you better be able to wipe it off and keep working. if you truly want to do well, how the criticism is given to you is irrelevant - its the argument he/she makes that matters.
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Human beings are much more subtle than this. How one says something is often more important than what they say. Otherwise we'd never have developed the term "body language."
 
cinnamonandgravy said:
if youre a beginner, a supportive community is a huge help. if you ever want to advance to god-tier, someone is going to shit all over you and you better be able to wipe it off and keep working. if you truly want to do well, how the criticism is given to you is irrelevant - its the argument he/she makes that matters.
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I think Scientology follows a nearly identical philosophy when it comes to moving up the ladder.


*eek*
 
potency said:
I think Scientology follows a nearly identical philosophy when it comes to moving up the ladder.


*eek*
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Yup. "You gotta get that" body thetan "off your shoulders."

75 million years ago, the dictator of the "Galactic Confederacy" stacked billions of his people around Earth volcanoes and blew them up with a hydrogen bomb. These people exist today as thetans that adhere to humans causing harm. Xenu "shit all over you and you better be able to wipe it off and keep working."
 
Steve said:
Christ people. This is just sh*t. The conflict I get is due to stupid new gcc header file crap. But what makes me upset is that the crap is for completely bogus reasons. The above code is sh*t, and it generates sh*t code. It looks bad, and there’s no reason for it.
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This is bad code.
 
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