Linus Tech Tips: "Linux Gaming Finally Doesn't Suck"

heatlesssun

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Still doesn't change the fact that the average gamer will weigh up the pro's and con's of sticking with Windows vs the number of titles available under Linux regarding their Steam library. Creating generalized statements doesn't make your opinion the correct one.

How would the average PC gamer or general PC user even know how to do a pros-cons analysis of Windows versus Linux?
 

tetris42

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I feel like it's not even a matter of raw framerate these days. It's more the stuttering and frame timing. I've tinkered with wine/wine-staging over last several years and for whatever reason, some games, even though framerate is in the quite playable range, it's just horribly inconsistent with dips and, let's call them "mini freezes" where it gets stuck for like 0.5-1 sec before picking up again. I feel like it's analogous to writing to a USB stick where the rate is fast until the cache gets full, then tanks until it's empty again. Other games, like the new Doom for example, amazingly smooth and fast. Probably it's the native Vulkan support. I'm going to continue to be hopeful because, really, on personal computer, the games are the only reason I still keep a Windows drive...
I'd really like to see more research done into this. A lower framerate is one thing. If I'm running a 5-10 year old game, taking a 20% performance hit may not be an issue if it's still a decent framerate. But if it's not smooth at ANY speed, that's a big problem. Do you remember games that gave you problems with this? Particularly any less demanding ones?
 

atom

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Scenario 1: Hardcore gamer. Has all the lastest hardware and spent a fortune on it only to save a few bucks buy using Linux instead of Windows despite the drop in performance. Not likely.
Scenario 2: Casual gamer. Has been meaning to upgrade that FX8350 and 7970 ghz edition but it still keeps running games just fine at usable settings. Can't afford the performance decrease.
Scenario 3: Tinkerer. Loves doing things different. Favorite game is minesweeper, claims GIMP is the best photo editing software ever. Claims Indy games are best and purchases all the Humble Bundles they can above the minimum price and never actually plays them. They install Steam for Linux and praise it day and night, only they just can't seem to get their sound card to work in Linux.
 

Youn

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Scenario 4: the dude wanting to wage war against MS by using Linux in an attempt to alleviate their self hatred stemmed from repeated childhool trauma in school lunch rooms where chocolate cookies were actually raisin in disguise
 

Frobozz

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How would the average PC gamer or general PC user even know how to do a pros-cons analysis of Windows versus Linux?
That really paints the "average PC gamer" as a complete idiot. I normally don't place the bar that low.
 

heatlesssun

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That really paints the "average PC gamer" as a complete idiot. I normally don't place the bar that low.

Not sure how not expecting the average PC user to be able to install Linux and then do comparative analysis paints them an a complete idiot.
 

Frobozz

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Not sure how not expecting the average PC user to be able to install Linux and then do comparative analysis paints them an a complete idiot.
I just don't perceive it as a high knowledge task. I think the average PC gamer would be quite capable of doing rudimentary searches to find the differences between Linux and Windows 10, decide if they want to try it first hand, and get it installed.
Am I placing the bar too high for the average PC gamer?
 

heatlesssun

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I just don't perceive it as a high knowledge task. I think the average PC gamer would be quite capable of doing rudimentary searches to find the differences between Linux and Windows 10, decide if they want to try it first hand, and get it installed.
Am I placing the bar too high for the average PC gamer?

Outside of PC tech circles though, who really cares about PC gaming on Linux? If "hardcode" PC is niche, PC Linux gamers are perhaps even more so. When there's virtually no OEMs producing PC gaming devices with Linux preinstalled it's obviously far from a major concern in the real world.

Then we you go in researching stuff, it's not like "Wow that's amazing!" would be the reaction of the average PC gamer running their games fine on Windows. For instance, Shadow of the Tomb Raider, looks like it's compatible under Steam Play. But take a look at some performance comparisons between Steam Play and native Windows, gee a 20%+ reduction in performance. "Amazing!" Coming from Linux fans. What's the motivation for PC gamers already running fine with 100% PC game compatibility to mess around with installing Linux, setting up dual booting and all the rest, just to play some of the games they play fine already only slower?
 
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Frobozz

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Outside of PC tech circles though, who really cares about PC gaming on Linux? If "hardcode" PC is niche, PC Linux gamers are perhaps even more so. When there's virtually no OEMs producing PC gaming devices with Linux preinstalled it's obviously far from a major concern in the real world.

Then we you go in researching stuff, it's not like "Wow that's amazing!" would be the reaction of the average PC gamer running their games fine on Windows. For instance, Shadow of the Tomb Raider, looks like it compatible under Steam Play. But take a look at some performance comparisons between Steam Play and native Windows, gee on 20%+ reduction in performance. "Amazing!" Coming from Linux fans. What's the motivation for a PC gamers that's already running fine with 100% PC game compatibility to mess around with installing Linux, setting up dual booting and all the rest, just to play the games they play fine only slower?

That's what makes Linus Tech Tips talking about it a news worthy post. It would be/could be a prompt or catalyst for a non-enthusiast to start looking into it, which I believe they are completely capable of doing. With the perpetual stories of Windows 10 abusing its users (true or not), it might make someone give it a serious look even if they lose some FPS.
 

heatlesssun

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That's what makes Linus Tech Tips talking about it a news worthy post. It would be/could be a prompt or catalyst for a non-enthusiast to start looking into it, which I believe they are completely capable of doing. With the perpetual stories of Windows 10 abusing its users (true or not), it might make someone give it a serious look even if they lose some FPS.

Linus gets into a lot of pretty esoteric stuff that virtually no one is every going to touch personally. Really, that demo of Linux gaming, it might be impressive to Linux folks but for average people "So what? An number of the games don't even run and I can already do all of it anyway without Linux."

Linux gaming only brings something to the table for Linux fans and anti-Microsoft folks. It does zip for average gamers wanting to simply play games.
 

Frobozz

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Linus gets into a lot of pretty esoteric stuff that virtually no one is every going to touch personally. Really, that demo of Linux gaming, it might be impressive to Linux folks but for average people "So what? An number of the games don't even run and I can already do all of it anyway without Linux."

Linux gaming only brings something to the table for Linux fans and anti-Microsoft folks. It does zip for average gamers wanting to simply play games.
Possibly so. However, the anti-Microsoft sentiment is out in the world. Little things like this can show that they can play games without necessarily needing Windows. So yes. It may be of interest to a segment of the average gamer, IMO.
 

heatlesssun

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Possibly so. However, the anti-Microsoft sentiment is out in the world. Little things like this can show that they can play games without necessarily needing Windows. So yes. It may be of interest to a segment of the average gamer, IMO.

Sure, "The Year of Desktop Linux" meme is 20 years old now, there's long been anti-Microsoft sentiment in the world. That said, PC gaming is one of those areas where Window is so good compared to the competition, it's not a matter of people needing Windows but wanting Windows, even without realizing it. A PC gamer buys a PC gaming laptop, it comes with Windows, it's pretty much guaranteed to run at least any modern game within the performance constraints of the device. That PC gaming laptop comes with Linux and that user has NO IDEA what it may or may not run without research and looking deeper into compatibility.

The way I see, after five years on Steam, Linux went pretty much no where, there's no indication of anything beyond a niche group of Linux PC gamers. And while Linux gaming improved Windows PC exploded with ever more content that was never going to make it to Linux. And thus Steam Play to help keep Linux from becoming every more irrelevant to average PC gamers due to a severe lack of content compared to Windows.

Right now the Linux PC gaming world is totally tied up in Windows compatibility at which it will always be second fiddle relative to Windows. Again great for the ultra niche of folks that were already into Linux gaming, near meaningless for Windows gamers who are already at 100% Windows game compatibility.
 

M76

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Not really. Normal gamers would want an easy to use, reliable pc, which is windows for usability and compatibility. Yes, with win10.
Is linux really more complicated than windows? I don't think so, it wasn't for a long time.
 

mlcarson

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If Microsoft ever starts charging annual fees for Windows then Linux will go mainstream. Until then, I can't see people wanting to convert to Linux. I could probably make the transition to Linux easily for what I do but it would still be a chore and I'd feel like a Linux newbie rather than a Windows admin with 25 years experience. There needs to be a compelling reason to migrate and there really isn't. It's great that things have developed to such a degree that Linux is a viable alternative though.
 

tetris42

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Linux gaming only brings something to the table for Linux fans and anti-Microsoft folks. It does zip for average gamers wanting to simply play games.
And only fire marshals and building owners care about fire escapes. They do nothing for people just wanting to go in and out of the building.

Is linux really more complicated than windows? I don't think so, it wasn't for a long time.
It's both more and less complex than Windows. If you just want to do a new install, run a few mainstream programs, I'd argue Linux is hands down easier than Windows. If you want to do a lot of system tweaking and run a lot of specific 3rd party programs, it quickly starts getting more complicated. I've been doing some experimentation with gaming on Linux and when I have to do more advanced things (like get Vsync working, install a CD emulator that reads less common formats, install frame monitoring software for older non-Steam games), the use of the command line becomes inescapable. That's not the case on Windows and hasn't been for a long time.
 

heatlesssun

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And only fire marshals and building owners care about fire escapes. They do nothing for people just wanting to go in and out of the building.

So gaming on Linux is an emergency escape? Yeah, for day to day use that's not particularly useful though sure one day you might need it.

If you just want to do a new install, run a few mainstream programs, I'd argue Linux is hands down easier than Windows.

Hands down easier is well overstating it. While I get that Linux distros have package managers which is great it takes very little effort to install Chrome or Steam or Libre Office on Windows.
 

Mazzspeed

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I just don't perceive it as a high knowledge task. I think the average PC gamer would be quite capable of doing rudimentary searches to find the differences between Linux and Windows 10, decide if they want to try it first hand, and get it installed.
Am I placing the bar too high for the average PC gamer?

That's what he thinks though. He thinks the average gamer is a shallow fool.

I'm an average gamer, I worked it out. If Linus from Linus tech tips can work it out, anyone can. ;)
 

heatlesssun

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That's what he thinks though. He thinks the average gamer is a shallow fool.

I'm an average gamer, I worked it out. If Linus from Linus tech tips can work it out, anyone can. ;)

The average PC user is not an experienced PC technician and doesn't give a rats ass about operating systems nor has ever tried to do something like setup a dual boot on their PCs. That doesn't make them shallow of fools, it simply means like average people their devices are tools, not something they become technically obsessed with. You are not anything near the average gamer if you're constantly installing and tweaking Linux distros.
 

heatlesssun

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Great and all but I am fine with Windows.

This. Windows works perfectly everyday or hundreds of millions of people across Earth. Just because something works well for people and they have no need or interest in fixing what isn't broken doesn't make them shallow or fools, it makes then practical people.
 

GoldenTiger

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That's what he thinks though. He thinks the average gamer is a shallow fool.

I'm an average gamer, I worked it out. If Linus from Linus tech tips can work it out, anyone can. ;)
Wrong. Gamers are not concerned with making a dual boot and tweaking tons of crap for Linux. Get real.
 

Frobozz

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The average PC user is not an experienced PC technician and doesn't give a rats ass about operating systems nor has ever tried to do something like setup a dual boot on their PCs. That doesn't make them shallow of fools, it simply means like average people their devices are tools, not something they become technically obsessed with. You are not anything near the average gamer if you're constantly installing and tweaking Linux distros.
II disagree with your assessment of "the average gamer." Everyone will have an opinion about Windows. Knowing that alternatives exist could cause them to stop and think about it. The average PC gamer cares more about the specs of their machine (including OS) than you're giving them credit for, in my opinion.
 

heatlesssun

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II disagree with your assessment of "the average gamer." Everyone will have an opinion about Windows. Knowing that alternatives exist could cause them to stop and think about it. The average PC gamer cares more about the specs of their machine (including OS) than you're giving them credit for, in my opinion.

Hmm, this statement is kind of odd. PC gamers who care about specs and spend money on it, plenty of them like myself have tried Linux for gaming. The thing is the more games and hardware you have the harder it is to use Linux because the support just isn't there.
 

Frobozz

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I guess while we're at it... Could you (the 'anyone' you) define for me just what a "gamer" is? I viewed it broadly that it was someone who played video games recreationally. Then there's a take where it's someone competitive and high ranked in a particular title. Then the concept changes to where they play all of the games ever published. Then it changes to someone who demands peak performance above all else. Then other threads it's the people who order 2x Bitchinfast3Ds on launch day.
 

heatlesssun

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I guess while we're at it... Could you (the 'anyone' you) define for me just what a "gamer" is? I viewed it broadly that it was someone who played video games recreationally. Then there's a take where it's someone competitive and high ranked in a particular title. Then the concept changes to where they play all of the games ever published. Then it changes to someone who demands peak performance above all else. Then other threads it's the people who order 2x Bitchinfast3Ds on launch day.

To me a PC gamer is someone who plays PC games on a routine basis for entertainment or competitive purposes, like most anything that can be called gaming. Like any large group of folks they can't be defined monolithically, there are various subsets of groups within the larger group with different wants and needs.
 

Mazzspeed

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The average PC user is not an experienced PC technician and doesn't give a rats ass about operating systems nor has ever tried to do something like setup a dual boot on their PCs. That doesn't make them shallow of fools, it simply means like average people their devices are tools, not something they become technically obsessed with. You are not anything near the average gamer if you're constantly installing and tweaking Linux distros.

Rubbish, total unmitigated rubbish. Anyone can be a casual gamer, to a casual gamer 'gaming' is downtime. There is absolutely noting to state that the average gamer cannot install an OS. You'd have to be the king of generalized rubbish.

Wrong. Gamers are not concerned with making a dual boot and tweaking tons of crap for Linux. Get real.

Once again, not interested.
 

GoldenTiger

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Rubbish, total unmitigated rubbish. Anyone can be a casual gamer, to a casual gamer 'gaming' is downtime. There is absolutely noting to state that the average gamer cannot install an OS. You'd have to be the king of generalized rubbish.



Once again, not interested.
Why even quote then? You're not interested unless someone kowtows to you? It's clear you can't put up solid arguments without the bullshit being cut through.
 

heatlesssun

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Rubbish, total unmitigated rubbish. Anyone can be a casual gamer, to a casual gamer 'gaming' is downtime. There is absolutely noting to state that the average gamer cannot install an OS. You'd have to be the king of generalized rubbish.

What in the sam hell are you going on about? The average PC user/gamer is not interested in spending countless hours becoming a PC tech, they simply want to their devices to work for their needs.
 

triwolf

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Like him or hate him, Linus (not that one) has his audience, many of whom are now being swayed to try out gaming on Linux. Last month, Valve introduced a new version of Steam Play allowing Linux users to run Windows games thanks to Proton, a modified distribution of Wine. While framerates are obviously no match for the intended OS, Linus shows that at least a handful of popular games, which include DOOM and Skyrim, run well enough to play through.
This story for the upteenth time.

It only doesn't suck until you try to play a game that has no support. Then it sucks when you have to install Windows or play something else. Another problem is the something else is maybe 3% of available games. When it's 70% or so I will look closer into it.
 

triwolf

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Better get used to it if you don't want to pay monthly installments for your OS. We know that's the endgame for Microsoft
I hope this isn't the case, at least they just released Office 2019, so they hopefully already know people don't want a subscription OS either. If you get a chance, make sure to tell everyone that's how you feel, especially Microsoft. If it does happen and Linux has good or great game support, it will be an exodus from Windows, don't let Microsoft forget this.
 

masquap

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I moved to macOS a couple of years ago from being one of the biggest Windows zealots after the Windows 8 being a phone OS debacle and the Windows 10 battle, plus I wanted a decent 4k+ screen and Windows was (still has issues, looking at you, Java) horrid for scaling. I now use an iMac and MacBook plus consoles for games (XBonX and PS4Pro), but recently (18 months or so) decided to get back into a little PC gaming so I bought an Asus RoG i7/1070 machine. I use it very infrequently and honestly, it's done nothing but reinforce my disdain for the newer Windows versions. It patches CONSTANTLY and I've never had a successful Windows major version upgrade meaning I've had to reinstall at least 3 times in the last 18 months. I'm sure other people's experience is different, that's cool, I'm happy for you, it's not mine though. I do have some experience with Linux (all headless server stuff) so I'm not a complete noob but a couple of weeks ago I read about some of this (Lutris, Steam Play) and thought I'd give Linux gaming a go on it. The install was derp level easy, next next finish through the boot CD, and download and double click Steam. Honestly, I'm impressed, of my 800 game Steam library (mostly indie stuff but a bunch of old and new AAA titles in there) around 50% of it is Linux native and runs just as well as it did on Windows, and the other 50%, of the maybe 10 games I've tried (PayDay 2, Terraria, System Shock 2) all run really well (somme not perfect, but 99% there for me). At this stage I'm a looooong way off transitioning to it as a daily, and TBH I wouldn't bother because I really do like macOS (again, you may not, that's cool), but as an alternative for a gaming PC, I'm sold.

tl;dr consider me sold on this Linux bit, I'm really impressed and hope it pushes both Linux native clients and further development into the runtime environments (like Steam Play) so I can have a legit alternative games machine to Windows.
 

Mazzspeed

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What in the sam hell are you going on about? The average PC user/gamer is not interested in spending countless hours becoming a PC tech, they simply want to their devices to work for their needs.

No one stated that average PC user would need to be a PC tech. You're flying off the deep end again. :rolleyes:

There is no way you can claim that the average gamer, the casual gamer, is a shallow idiot. No way at all. To make such a claim is simply ridiculous.

The casual gamer will weigh the odds and decide for themselves if an alternate OS to Windows is suited to their situation.
 

heatlesssun

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No one stated that average PC user would need to be a PC tech. You're flying off the deep end again. :rolleyes:

There is no way you can claim that the average gamer, the casual gamer, is a shallow idiot. No way at all. To make such a claim is simply ridiculous.

The casual gamer will weigh the odds and decide for themselves if an alternate OS to Windows is suited to their situation.

After all of these years of the "Year of desktop Linux" right around the corner no, the average PC user/gamer isn't looking for alternative desktop OSes. If they were you'd be able to walk into a Best Buy or Walmart or order from Amazon many more models of PCs with alternative OSes. It doesn't make anyone shallow or a fool, it simply means that Windows works better for countless millions that you're willing to accept. The market demand for alternative desktop OS simply isn't there to the level you think.
 

Mazzspeed

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After all of these years of the "Year of desktop Linux" right around the corner no, the average PC user/gamer isn't looking for alternative desktop OSes. If they were you'd be able to walk into a Best Buy or Walmart or order from Amazon many more models of PCs with alternative OSes. It doesn't make anyone shallow or a fool, it simply means that Windows works better for countless millions that you're willing to accept. The market demand for alternative desktop OS simply isn't there to the level you think.

I see plenty of people fed up with Windows looking for alternate operating systems and the year of the Linux desktop is a stupid term invented by the arrogant, no one really cares for such a term. The fact that Windows is installed by default on OEM devices simply highlights the real reason people use Windows, the power of a marketing department.

Once again, a thread on Linux gaming and here you are going above and beyond trying to debunk the fact that Linux gaming is fast becoming a viable alternative to many. Give the crusade a rest, no one really cares for your comments with the exception of the resident fan club. The rest of us casual gamers have the capacity to make up our own minds.
 

LigTasm

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I tried Linux again a few months ago and spent nearly a week searching for info and copying terminal commands to get my sound card to work. Of course just asking on a Linux forum nets you the answer of " you're a stupid waste of oxygen and you should never have been born if you can't figure out something this simple" from the resident neckbeards.

Every time I try Linux and have an issue the community that surrounds it reminds me why the market situation is what it is.
 

Mazzspeed

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I tried Linux again a few months ago and spent nearly a week searching for info and copying terminal commands to get my sound card to work. Of course just asking on a Linux forum nets you the answer of " you're a stupid waste of oxygen and you should never have been born if you can't figure out something this simple" from the resident neckbeards.

Every time I try Linux and have an issue the community that surrounds it reminds me why the market situation is what it is.

Not judging you in any way at all, but quite often this is a reaction to Windows users ranting along the lines of "it's so simple under Windows". Many can't seem to grasp that Linux is not Windows. Not all hardware works under macOS either, but people tend to ignore that fact. Numerous items of older hardware don't work under Windows 10.

However I'm impressed that as a gamer you were able to install an alternate OS and give it a go, highlighting that installing Linux isn't necessarily limited to 'computer techs' (hoping you aren't a computer tech.) ;)
 

heatlesssun

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Once again, a thread on Linux gaming and here you are going above and beyond trying to debunk the fact that Linux gaming is fast becoming a viable alternative to many.

I'm just being realistic. First of all there's been nothing fast about it, we're going on six years of Steam support for Linux and for almost all of that time even Valve has reported nothing beyond niche interest in Linux. And so after all that time a month ago Valve adds Windows compatibility tech into the Steam client so yeah now it's all different. Sure for Linux folks and others wanting Windows games outside of Windows. For all of the gamers already on Windows, 96%+ according to the Steam survey, running Windows games was always there.

You can't always use "the marketing department" as an excuse. PC gaming is as hot as it's ever been with many OEMs selling gaming branded devices. That virtually none of these devices comes with Linux isn't because of marketing, it's because when a user goes to run Battlefield V or any thousands of games, there's going to be a lot of folks saying "Why in the hell does my brand new gaming PC not run PC games?"
 

Mazzspeed

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I'm just being realistic.

No, you're being outwardly negative, almost like you have some innate fear of people switching sides. Claiming that gamers can't install alternate operating systems is about as far from realistic as anyone can get.

And you're right, the popularity of Windows is solely due to the fact that it's highly unlikely you're going to buy a device that doesn't have it pre installed from the factory. Problem is, that by no means indicates that it's a fantastic operating system or that people even like it. Considering the popularity of Android and mobile devices, I think that's evidence that people have issues with Windows as an operating system and have found something better with less issues that suits their busy lives.
 

LigTasm

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Not judging you in any way at all, but quite often this is a reaction to Windows users ranting along the lines of "it's so simple under Windows". Many can't seem to grasp that Linux is not Windows. Not all hardware works under macOS either, but people tend to ignore that fact. Numerous items of older hardware don't work under Windows 10.

However I'm impressed that as a gamer you were able to install an alternate OS and give it a go, highlighting that installing Linux isn't necessarily limited to 'computer techs' (hoping you aren't a computer tech.) ;)


This is the typical response if I talk about my issues with getting questions answered, I've seen it nearly verbatim so many times. I've done a ton of shit in Linux, I used custom kernels for years for folding. I'm not a complete amateur and a make sure to phrase my questions appropriately. I get the same level of response though, which is why I said what I did. Now if I can't find the answers by searching I simply don't bother because getting teeth pulled with rusty pliers is more fun than trying to get help.

The absolute superiority complex of the people who know is staggering. They seem to forget they weren't born with the knowledge in their head.

I really want this to work, because I love a lot of things about Linux. I love the customization and ability to make the OS as lightweight as you want. I love the freedom from MS telling you that you can only do it their way and changing things arbitrarily with their updates (ex - I used to shut off access to radios, microphones, etc with the sliders but suddenly now you can't use teamspeak or discord without it on). I just have a limited amount of time to play with stuff like this, and if I can't get an answer of some kind even if it is that hardware is incompatible and I need to change something in a timely manner I might as well not bother.
 
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