Lifetime PC Guy About To Do New Build and Now I Have A Mac Dilemma - Need Advice

SlapShot

Limp Gawd
Joined
Mar 31, 2004
Messages
167
As the title says, I've been a PC guy for 25 years. I've probably built 30 systems, for myself, and others in that time. Now, just as I was about to start a new build due that was long delayed due to some financial setbacks, (i5 2500k, with, eventually, two 6950's) in I now suddenly have a dilemma and could use your expertise, and thoughts on the matter.

I have a new job that I started about six months back, which offers a great, creative environment, and a promising opportunity for the future. We just had new management brought in to take the company to the next level and these guys have sme great ideas and plans. And that's where the dilemma appears. The new team is converting us completely to a Mac environment. There are a number of reasons, but one of the biggest is that we will be using several proprietary software apps that were designed solely for Macs. They are offering the employees a one time opportunity wherein they will pay $1000.00 towards our purchase of an iMac. They think that the benefits of having us more comfortable and actually using the Mac platform will help the transition and as well as benefit a number of other things. Also, as an additional bonus, those of us who purchase iMacs under this plan, will also have the opportunity to work from home one day a week, and possibly an additional day in the future. All of which is pretty compelling stuff.

However, as I noted earlier, I've been a PC guy my whole adult life. There are a couple other things in play here though. I've been having a great time working with Garage Band on the iPad my fiance bought me for my birthday. I'm getting to the point where I really, really want to be able to utilize the full blown version but, of course, it's only available for Macs. And, trust me, I've talked to half a dozen musician friends/acquaintenances, and several music stores,and there is absolutely nothing for the pc that is remotely an equivalent. Having my own iMac would solve that too, but clearly that's just not enough reason on it's own, of course, to buy one. But when you add in the offer being made by the company, well, it makes you think at least a bit.


Lastly, I am a gamer to a degree. The only thing I currently am involved with is World of Warcraft and I'm eagerly awaiting Diablo III. I'm also looking forward to Skyrim this fall. And that's really about all that interests me as far as games. No FPS, etc. Insofar as I know, Mac's have never been able to do gaming decently. Has that changed with the newest versions of the iMac's? They have Intel i5 and i7 processors, and offer Radeon 6970 (2gb) video cards. I'm guessing this setup would have to allow me to play WOW and Diablo III with the bells and whistles, but likely not Skyrim.

In the end, I'm still finding it hard to seriously consider anything other than a pc, it is, of course, what I have always known, but the $1000.00 they are offering is virtually half the price of a loaded iMac (we get a corporate discount also). Right now, having had some significant financial setbacks in the past year, as I mentioned, having someone pay for half of my new computer is a hard thing to turn down though. Especially as my new build was going to run me $2k, so that's literally a thousand dollars back in my pocket. Not to mention one less day of having to drive to work, with gas at $4.00 a gallon, no commute time, saving wear and tear on the car, on my brain, etc. etc.

I could, of course, have posted this in a Mac forum, but there is so much anti-pc/Mac is God, bias there that I expect I would have had no replies except those telling me why I would be insane to do anything except buy the Mac. On the other hand, this forum has always seemed to me to be balanced, less biased, and populated with a great number of people who honestly consider someones situation and provide fair, and technically sound advice.

If I cannot game, given my parameters, thats almost definitely going to be a deal breaker. If it is workable though, my other intended uses of a computer are a lot of net surfing, some music production stuff, some digital photography manipulation and synching to my iPad/iPod. All of which, excepting the gaming piece, a Mac could do as well, if not possibly a bit better in some areas.

And so now you have my dilemma. I would appreciate your thoughts, opinions and advice. This is entirely new ground for me. Thanks for any help with this.

Oh, and just to preclude any thoughts in that direction, because I've already checked. None of the Mac hack applications for the pc are viable. The Firewall and Security team will not allow them on the network, and two of the three critical proprietary programs will not play well, or at all, with them.
 
WoW runs fine under OSX and presumably there will be an OSX client for D3 since it is Blizzard. That said, you can dual boot Windows on the iMac and pick up some gaming performance.
 
I can't answer your question from a Mac gaming perspective, but I'll throw my two cents in as a professional working on a Saturday afternoon. If your company is willing to chip in to buy you a Mac, go for it... they essentially are covering the entire Apple premium and then some. Secondly, if you buy a Mac in this deal you can work from home, if you bought a Mac outside of this deal it sounds like you couldn't... no brainer take it.

The one thing I've learned is that your time off doesn't mean anything if you are so utterly exhausted and frazzled from working that all you do is sleep or plant yourself in front of a TV. Buying the Mac seems to have so many other positive side effects for you in your position that I would swallow my PC pride, buy the Mac, and then start saving up for a Windows box if the Mac doesn't meet your gaming needs. In this case, the intangible benefits to me far outweigh the possible cost of not having a gaming system for a little while. I say this because I have a Core i7-970, with a Radeon 6970 crossfire setup at home that is used but a few times a month because of my work. I wish I could use it more but I spend so much time at the office that I'm too exhausted to engage in another activity that requires thought and problem solving capabilities when I finally get home.
 
Thanks for your thoughts, PhatalOne. I greatly appreciate your perspective. In the end though, I simply dont have room for two boxes, two large monitors, etc., so I'm going to have to go with either one solution, or the other, long term.

JC


I can't answer your question from a Mac gaming perspective, but I'll throw my two cents in as a professional working on a Saturday afternoon. If your company is willing to chip in to buy you a Mac, go for it... they essentially are covering the entire Apple premium and then some. Secondly, if you buy a Mac in this deal you can work from home, if you bought a Mac outside of this deal it sounds like you couldn't... no brainer take it.

The one thing I've learned is that your time off doesn't mean anything if you are so utterly exhausted and frazzled from working that all you do is sleep or plant yourself in front of a TV. Buying the Mac seems to have so many other positive side effects for you in your position that I would swallow my PC pride, buy the Mac, and then start saving up for a Windows box if the Mac doesn't meet your gaming needs. In this case, the intangible benefits to me far outweigh the possible cost of not having a gaming system for a little while. I say this because I have a Core i7-970, with a Radeon 6970 crossfire setup at home that is used but a few times a month because of my work. I wish I could use it more but I spend so much time at the office that I'm too exhausted to engage in another activity that requires thought and problem solving capabilities when I finally get home.
 
WoW runs fine under OSX and presumably there will be an OSX client for D3 since it is Blizzard. That said, you can dual boot Windows on the iMac and pick up some gaming performance.

Thanks for the info Chibo, it helps. Mostly though, my primary concern, as far as gaming, is whether the 6970M video card (and no ability to upgrade it later) will be a limitation that prevents me from being able to game with all the bells and whistles.


JC
 
Thanks for your thoughts, PhatalOne. I greatly appreciate your perspective. In the end though, I simply dont have room for two boxes, two large monitors, etc., so I'm going to have to go with either one solution, or the other, long term.

JC

Well, if it came down to the video card not being fast enough then you could pick up an adapter and use the iMac as a monitor for your gaming system. I had an i5 27" and ran an xbox360 and my Linux box through it when needed.

I know the 6970m will run WoW maxed out, but unfortunately haven't run across any gaming benchmarks elsewhere. You're driving 2560x1440 so it's probably not great.
 
Last edited:
It almost assuredly will prevent you from maxing out games. The iMac is not an uber gaming machine.
Would it be possible to get a Mac Pro? Then you have a gaming machine although much more expensive. (I did read somewhere that Apple will be releasing a much cheaper Mac Pro though)
 
It almost assuredly will prevent you from maxing out games. The iMac is not an uber gaming machine.
Would it be possible to get a Mac Pro? Then you have a gaming machine although much more expensive. (I did read somewhere that Apple will be releasing a much cheaper Mac Pro though)

Good idea, and I would certainly consider a Mac Pro. I see they now even offer them with dual video cards. No idea how Xeon proc's work for gaming though. I could just manage to afford something like this:

One 2.8GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon “Nehalem”
8GB (4x2GB)
1TB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s hard drive
None
None
None
ATI Radeon HD 5870 1GB
One 18x SuperDrive


But the catch is that the Apple 27in. display is not included, and costs almost $1k, which puts this at the $4,000.00 mark. Thats beyond my reach, unfortunately. My absolute max would be $3500.00, shipped and in my home.


JC
 
If it's a work machine, meant for doing work, i'd opt for one of the 21" imacs (~$1200) and then just build my windows machine however I wanted it. Kinda depends on what the work machine has to do and what you'll be using when your in the office.
 
Hmmm, outside of some very very grey areas of legality, which we can't discuss here on the forums, if you're gonna be doing a lot of work with that proprietary software, then your best bet would be buying one of those iMacs or Mac Pros. In regards to the Mac Pro route, the Xeon CPUs are just fine for gaming. Really no difference between regular CPUs and Xeon CPUs when it come to games. As for the monitor, you don't have to use an Apple display with a Mac Pro. So you can save some money that way and be under your budget. As for the iMac route, as Chibo pointed out, apparently you can use the built-in monitor of the iMac with another PC . So if you go the SFF PC route, you can save a bit of space that way via the PC + iMac route.
 
If it's a work machine, meant for doing work, i'd opt for one of the 21" imacs (~$1200) and then just build my windows machine however I wanted it. Kinda depends on what the work machine has to do and what you'll be using when your in the office.

This isn't a work machine, but my home, all purpose, personal computer. And again, as I commented on earlier in the thread, I simply do not have enough room to accomodate two complete systems, it has to be one or the other.


JC
 
Hmmm, outside of some very very grey areas of legality, which we can't discuss here on the forums, if you're gonna be doing a lot of work with that proprietary software, then your best bet would be buying one of those iMacs or Mac Pros. In regards to the Mac Pro route, the Xeon CPUs are just fine for gaming. Really no different between regular CPUs and Xeon CPUs when it come to games. As for the monitor, you don't have to use an Apply display with a Mac Pro. As for the iMac route, as Chibo pointed out, apparently you can use the built-in monitor of the iMac with another PC. So if you go the SFF PC route, you can save a bit of space that way.


Danny,


Thanks very much for the information. While a two box scenario still likely won't be workable due to space, and needing completely separate mice, keyboards, etc., the fact that I can use a non-Apple display will really help on the expense side. That may make a Mac Pro affordable. Can any display, such as my almost new, Samsung 27 inch display be used?

Also, the new Mac Pros offer dual video cards. While I wouldn't be able to afford one right away, if I could add a second one later, that might be just what I need.


JC
 
That may make a Mac Pro affordable. Can any display, such as my almost new, Samsung 27 inch display be used?
Should work fine since the HD 5870 Mac has a normal DVI port.
Also, the new Mac Pros offer dual video cards. While I wouldn't be able to afford one right away, if I could add a second one later, that might be just what I need.

I actually wouldn't factor that capability in for three reasons:
- AMD's supprt for HD 5xxx series Crossfire is a little lackluster and lagging severely in terms of development even in a Windows environment.
- Mac OSX doesn't have Crossfire or SLI support. As such, that second GPU is only used for additional displays while under Mac OSX.
- It looks like you have to buy a specific Mac approved and therefore every expensive HD 5870 for use in that Mac Pro.
 
Hmmmm......just found out about Apple's refurbs. This, for example, would save some money, and just about allow me to fit a 27 inch Apple display in at my budget (I would love to have that resolution).


http://store.apple.com/us/product/F...TU4NDQ&tduid=376bb4188b3a4ecd79db7200bb9db4cc


Wondering if the proc speed would end up being the limiting factor in game performance though.

Honestly, even considering a non PC is still such a hard idea for me to grasp though. But it may end up being the "logical" choice. :confused:


JC
 
Should work fine since the HD 5870 Mac has a normal DVI port.


I actually wouldn't factor that capability in for three reasons:
- AMD's supprt for HD 5xxx series Crossfire is a little lackluster and lagging severely in terms of development even in a Windows environment.
- Mac OSX doesn't have Crossfire or SLI support. As such, that second GPU is only used for additional displays while under Mac OSX.
- It looks like you have to buy a specific Mac approved and therefore every expensive HD 5870 for use in that Mac Pro.

Again, thanks for the valuable information, Danny. Do you feel a Mac Pro with the 5870 and that 2.8 Xeon would be a viable gaming rig?


JC
 
i feel your pain. quiet the dilemma

i don't know much about mac (other than to rubbish them for a overpriced 'cult of personality' product). as PhatalOne as mentioned, if it keeps you home 1 day a week (maybe more later on), i'd trade my soul for that privilege. so fuck-it.
however there must be some way you can have your cake & eat it too.

mac os runs fine on intel hardware and has drivers for amd gpu's. surely it can't be that hard to run a dual-boot or run mac os in a VM? if this is true, will the company still shell out the cash for the purchase (speaking from the perspective that you build a pure wintel pc form scratch). they (the company) migh be 'renting' your home pc 1 or 2 days a week, but you've gotta get something out of it too, you are paying the other half, maybe more. i'm guessing unless you're doing work stuff, you're probably not wanting to be in 'mac land' longer than you have too.

again macs aren't my area so i could have it arse backwards.
 
Danny,


Thanks very much for the information. While a two box scenario still likely won't be workable due to space, and needing completely separate mice, keyboards, etc., the fact that I can use a non-Apple display will really help on the expense side. That may make a Mac Pro affordable. Can any display, such as my almost new, Samsung 27 inch display be used?

Also, the new Mac Pros offer dual video cards. While I wouldn't be able to afford one right away, if I could add a second one later, that might be just what I need.


JC

KVM box will solve this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KVM_switch
 
Aphasia, thanks for your thoughts. But I'm in doubt about this:

"mac os runs fine on intel hardware and has drivers for amd gpu's. surely it can't be that hard to run a dual-boot or run mac os in a VM?"

While we know that Intel procs, and AMD (and nVidia) work in Mac Pro's, I haven't honestly ever heard that you could truly run an actual Mac OS in any way on a PC. If so, that would be perfect. But I don't think it's possible. :(

You are exactly right though about the fact that I am trying to have my cake and eat it too. I would even skip the $1000.00 offer if I could just build the Windows pc I planned to, and somehow still run the actual Mac OS on it, as a dual boot. I'm sure that would meet the requirement to be able to work at home once a week too, but again, I don't believe it's possible to make that work. Otherwise, given the issues with viruses, spam, etc. that Window's users face, there would be a LOT of people running Snow Leopard on their PC's right now.

JC








i feel your pain. quiet the dilemma

i don't know much about mac (other than to rubbish them for a overpriced 'cult of personality' product). as PhatalOne as mentioned, if it keeps you home 1 day a week (maybe more later on), i'd trade my soul for that privilege. so fuck-it.
however there must be some way you can have your cake & eat it too.

mac os runs fine on intel hardware and has drivers for amd gpu's. surely it can't be that hard to run a dual-boot or run mac os in a VM? if this is true, will the company still shell out the cash for the purchase (speaking from the perspective that you build a pure wintel pc form scratch). they (the company) migh be 'renting' your home pc 1 or 2 days a week, but you've gotta get something out of it too, you are paying the other half, maybe more. i'm guessing unless you're doing work stuff, you're probably not wanting to be in 'mac land' longer than you have too.

again macs aren't my area so i could have it arse backwards.
 
http://store.apple.com/us/product/F...TU4NDQ&tduid=376bb4188b3a4ecd79db7200bb9db4cc

Wondering if the proc speed would end up being the limiting factor in game performance though.
The CPU Speed is fine for current games. Granted it's not as fast as the Sandy Bridge based CPUs out now, it's still plenty fast for current games. The big issue with that particular refurb is the video card: it's not a good choice for games these days due to its 512MB VRAM. And do remember that this is a MAC we're talking about. So any GPU upgrade is gonna cost you quite a bit of money, might even negate the refurbished savings actually, since it has to be Mac compatible.

Again, thanks for the valuable information, Danny. Do you feel a Mac Pro with the 5870 and that 2.8 Xeon would be a viable gaming rig?
Yeah it's a viable gaming rig. We use to recommend a very similar PC setup a year back. The Nehalem based 2.8Ghz Xeon that comes with the current Mac Pro with HD 5870 is basically the same as the Nehalem based 2.8Ghz Core i7 930 CPU that we use to recommend for gaming rigs a year ago.

You know what's the funny part? Technically on a single CPU scale, the CPUs that comes with the current iMacs are actually faster than the Xeon 2.8Ghz in gaming, assuming everything else is equal.


While we know that Intel procs, and AMD (and nVidia) work in Mac Pro's, I haven't honestly ever heard that you could truly run an actual Mac OS in any way on a PC. If so, that would be perfect. But I don't think it's possible. :(

You are exactly right though about the fact that I am trying to have my cake and eat it too. I would even skip the $1000.00 offer if I could just build the Windows pc I planned to, and somehow still run the actual Mac OS on it, as a dual boot. I'm sure that would meet the requirement to be able to work at home once a week too, but again, I don't believe it's possible to make that work. Otherwise, given the issues with viruses, spam, etc. that Window's users face, there would be a LOT of people running Snow Leopard on their PC's right now.
That's the grey area of legality that I was referring to earlier.

Everyone, please refrain from mentioning this again in this forum.
 
That's the grey area of legality that I was referring to earlier.

Everyone, please refrain from mentioning this again in this forum.[/QUOTE]

My apologies, I misunderstood and was referring to the ability to legitimately run the OS on a pc.


JC
 
My apologies, I misunderstood and was referring to the ability to legitimately run the OS on a pc.

Ahh. Gotcha.

Anyway, the Mac Pro route would provide a very decent gaming PC. However, gotta point this out cuz it's bugging me a little: You're still basically paying more money on an computer that's outdated by at least a year in terms of hardware.

Yes the Mac Pro is the logical route but damn.
 
Ahh. Gotcha.

Anyway, the Mac Pro route would provide a very decent gaming PC. However, gotta point this out cuz it's bugging me a little: You're still basically paying more money on an computer that's outdated by at least a year in terms of hardware.

Yes the Mac Pro is the logical route but damn.


Agreed, on both counts.


JC
 
yeah my bad. glossed over the bit about running proprietary software on a open platform...

anyway considering the op's conundrum, get the min hardware requirement mac, get best monitor upgrade & build your own separate windows box (intel or amd) and finally get a decent KVM switch box to resolve the double-up issue with the keyboard, mouse & monitor.

not the most elegant solution but passing up on 1 or 2 days a week working at home & the associated cost saving is too good to pass up.
 
Ahh. Gotcha.

Anyway, the Mac Pro route would provide a very decent gaming PC. However, gotta point this out cuz it's bugging me a little: You're still basically paying more money on an computer that's outdated by at least a year in terms of hardware.

Yes the Mac Pro is the logical route but damn.


Just came across this site selling certified, refurbed Mac Pro's for much less than Apple does. You can upgrade the processors (at least as much as the motherboard allows?) and they also sell a Radeon 5870 which can be added. One of these even has an SSD drive. Just wondering if this might be a viable option.

http://www.macs4u.com/categories/Mac-Pro/


JC
 
Yeah the main reason why those Macs are so cheap is because they're mostly the old Mac Pro models from 2006 to 2008. The use of DDR2 RAM and the 2600XT/7300GT cards was a dead giveaway that those were the old Mac Pros. I would not recommend any of thoe old Mac Pro models for gaming nowadays. Also the SSD option is not that good since it's a Sandforce SSD which means that its real world performance is rather slow compared to good SSDs.

You want to get the newer Mac Pro models that uses DDR3 RAM.
 
Why does it have to be an iMac or Mac Pro? What about a Mac Mini? They're under $1000.00 bucks and you can just stick it on top of your massive gaming machine. Buy one monitor that has dual connections or use VNC to remote into the Mini from your PC.
 
Why does it have to be an iMac or Mac Pro? What about a Mac Mini? They're under $1000.00 bucks and you can just stick it on top of your massive gaming machine. Buy one monitor that has dual connections or use VNC to remote into the Mini from your PC.

now that's not a bad idea IF the proprietary software the OP is going to be using doesn't need super duper hardware to run efficiently. Heck, that even begs the question if a macbook would suffice..then you don't need all the extra VNC, kvm, extra this and that..just a thought
 
now that's not a bad idea IF the proprietary software the OP is going to be using doesn't need super duper hardware to run efficiently. Heck, that even begs the question if a macbook would suffice..then you don't need all the extra VNC, kvm, extra this and that..just a thought

I appreciate the thoughts, but unfortunately, the proprietary software requires significant horsepower.


JC
 
I appreciate the thoughts, but unfortunately, the proprietary software requires significant horsepower.


JC

I kinda figured. Well, I think at this point it comes down to two options.
1) Expensive Mac Pro and maxed graphics or,
2) iMac and not-so-maxed graphics.

I think your budget will determine which is appropriate.
 
Back
Top