Leaked Windows 10 Build 9901 Shows New Details

heatlesssun said:
Thing is when anyone actually does try to talk about Windows in these FrontPage posts these days it's impossible. Most of the people making the most noise are self-proclaimed non-Windows users. You praise the wonders of Mint and how you don't use Windows because of it. Wonderful. Apparently you don't like Windows and don't use it, more power to you. I don't understand why people who think Windows is garbage and don't use it feel so compelled to post in threads about Windows.
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Actually, you have more posts in this thread than anyone else.
 
Ashbringer said:
Here I am using Linux and the poor Windows peasants have to rely on Microsoft's ability to relocate the settings button? I feel spoiled with Linux UI's where I can put things where I want how I want. And Microsoft probably had to have many meetings on that settings button.

Also they still have the charms bar in Windows 10? I thought that would have been the first thing they removed.

16.jpg
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Linux is all good and that, but let us know when game devs will release games for that platform.
 
when I read charms bar I think of pixie dust and fairies. lol kind of like windows 10 wanting to reach out to little 10 yr old girls.
 
HoffY said:
No, they dont. And it would help immensely if you mob would stop assuming absolute extremes like this ever time someone tries to explain in frustration of having ot put up with so much bullshit all the time.

There isa million things i could make better in Windows 7. But taking what does work away... or limiting the user's options or ability to customize the user interface.. DOES ... NOT... MAKE... THINGS... BETTER!!!!!!!!!! FFS!

Can't you lot get this through your thick skulls?
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Hes the M$ resident troll , he doesnt have a skull
 
The big problem with Windows is that the home user subsidizes a bunch of shit that enterprise users use.

After W95, the UI was fine. The only things Windows added in the last 20 years that I needed from the OS was USB support and a move to 64-bit to escape memory limitations and possibly their filesystem. Anything else is either bug fixes and performance improvements which before MS were considered minor revisions and generally free or cost of shipping you new disks. You generally openned the checkbook on a new revision if it offered actual new features.

Since then in order to maintain compatibility with Microsoft's built in obsolecense schedule, I've paid the better part of $1000 to Microsoft for a small handful of new features I actually use & cared to have.

Fuck them.
 
HoffY said:
No, they dont. And it would help immensely if you mob would stop assuming absolute extremes like this ever time someone tries to explain in frustration of having ot put up with so much bullshit all the time.
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Yeah wow, this is at the heart of many MANY Windows 8 discussions. In GUI design, there are something that are personal preference, but other things that are quantifiable. You can look at the number of clicks it takes to perform different functions and how long the time delay is from start to finish. Windows 8 wasn't designed with an obvious rhyme or reason and lots of small things took longer to do than with Windows 7, even when you were familiar with the interface.

I'd be happy to learn a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GUI design if it meant that after I learned it, I was able to do things faster and more efficiently. I actually do that a little already with a Litestep / Nexus Dock bastardization of the gui, but I'm sure there's room for more improvement. But no, everybody's knee-jerk response is you're either just afraid of change or else everything is already perfect.

There are people out there with degree specializations in this sort of thing. I'm honestly amazed Microsoft doesn't invest HEAVILY in GUI research to discover the most intuitive and efficient methods for using an OS possible, come up with the new standard because it's the best. Instead, what we get are a see-sawing between random methods that seem experimental more than anything v. sticking to Windows 95 standards with only clearly good ideas occasionally slipping through.
 
I hope this is all a joke..

Nothing new guys, you know you have been able to add a search bar for YEARS and it never was forced by Microsoft.. never used it never will...

I just hope you can turn it off, just what I needed junk on my taskbar
 
I actually liked how easy the settings button on the charm bar made accessing the control panel. that is rather unfortunate that they are moving away from that
 
heatlesssun said:
As much as people want to slam Windows 8, Windows 10 can't be entirely successful simply being a desktop centric OS like Windows 7. For better or for worse, Windows 8 in its failure has risen the bar for Windows. Windows 10 has to be both a desktop and tablet OS. It cannot succeed by simply being a desktop OS centric OS like Windows 7.
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I certainly wouldn't argue that Windows should be focused on just one UI design. That would be silly. But you just handle this using different shells, that's all. There shouldn't be a "desktop OS" and a "tablet OS", just different shells. It shouldn't be any more complicated than that.

Like when I log out of the Unity shell and log into an XBMC session... and then out of XBMC and into Steam BPM... They're completely different UI paradigms running on the same exact OS. And the user is just switching the session shell.

I'm not saying they should jettison the tablet UI altogether (though, just my preference, it's not my cup of tea even for a mobile UI), and as you said they fixed some of the annoyances in 8.1 (but not the biggest one: they still force you back to the tablet UI to do some pretty basic operations, like finding applications you want to run). Frankly, you shouldn't have to ever use it on a desktop. But my other criticism is with the desktop UI itself. I just think it's ugly and less usable and not as fluent for some workflows. But as I said, this is kind of an industry trend so I don't want to sound like I'm just picking on MS on this point.
 
jwcalla said:
I certainly wouldn't argue that Windows should be focused on just one UI design. That would be silly. But you just handle this using different shells, that's all. There shouldn't be a "desktop OS" and a "tablet OS", just different shells. It shouldn't be any more complicated than that.
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I would basically agree with this and this does look to be the point of Continuum, but , it's a bit more than this. I use touch on the desktop constantly as well as keyboards and mice with modern apps. It's not keyboard and mouse OR touch and pen, it's keyboard and mouse AND touch and pen. To some degree these things work interchangeably and simultaneously.

jwcalla said:
I'm not saying they should jettison the tablet UI altogether (though, just my preference, it's not my cup of tea even for a mobile UI), and as you said they fixed some of the annoyances in 8.1 (but not the biggest one: they still force you back to the tablet UI to do some pretty basic operations, like finding applications you want to run). Frankly, you shouldn't have to ever use it on a desktop. But my other criticism is with the desktop UI itself. I just think it's ugly and less usable and not as fluent for some workflows. But as I said, this is kind of an industry trend so I don't want to sound like I'm just picking on MS on this point.
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And these are some of the basic arguments that many have made against Windows 8.1 particularly on the desktop. Overall I get these arguments and don't have an issue with doing things to address these problems. I've just tended to think that these arguments are a bit overblown, particularly with 8.1. Yes, there are differences between 7 and 8.1 but when using desktop applications the difference isn't that great. Sure the full screen Start Screen throws a lot of people off but plenty of people have picked up and adjusted to it and 8.1 works as well for them with the stock UI as well as 7 on the desktop.
 
BladeVenom said:
The time is now. http://store.steampowered.com/search/?os=linux
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So about 1500 games for Linux and all those plus another almost 8000 for Windows. Anti-Microsoft folks constantly and rightfully point out the weakness of Microsoft's mobile app ecosystem a huge problem for it, due to low market share. And that's the same problem that desktop Linux has. Until desktop Linux makes big strides in market share, and it's going on 20 years now waiting for that, the apps just aren't going to be there in large numbers.
 
Wow, a search box on the task bar. So Windows 98 it hurts. :p

Looks like MS still has no intention of moving away from a primarily touch interface, so the leak is disappointing. This leaves it in the same position as Win 8.x for corporate (dis-)use and it doesn't look like MS will sort that out until at least 2018 with Win11 or whatever it will be called. Windows 7 is going to have a very long life.
 
Hi All

As I'm a physical therapist & not a programmer, is there a reason why there can't be two separate user interfaces 1 for desktop & 1 for touch screen?
 
heatlesssun said:
So about 1500 games for Linux and all those plus another almost 8000 for Windows. Anti-Microsoft folks constantly and rightfully point out the weakness of Microsoft's mobile app ecosystem a huge problem for it, due to low market share. And that's the same problem that desktop Linux has. Until desktop Linux makes big strides in market share, and it's going on 20 years now waiting for that, the apps just aren't going to be there in large numbers.
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Gaming and a few other commercial apps that have very tiny marketshare (Photoshop, etc.), yeah that's true. But otherwise you'll be able to do just about anything on Ubuntu or OS X or whatever. I've been exclusively Ubuntu for four years now for my work and regular use and the only exception is gaming, but even now I do my gaming on Ubuntu since the games I play run on Linux. I could imagine an average consumer who uses his computer for just browsing and email and whatever would have even less requirements than me. And four years ago there were some areas where the software stack on Ubuntu was, frankly, just far better than Windows at the time. Like video playback and driver and software package updates.

IOW, I feel like this play on these supposed "zillions of apps" is just something that keeps people chained to the familiar.

FWIW, I don't like the same argument against WP, because pretty much all of your top hitter apps are going to be there anyway. I think WP failed more from a combination of an atrocious interface and the fact that it was just too late to the market, and Android was already entrenched. Much like how the desktop today has already consolidated on Windows.

But yeah, I remember the same argument used against Android too. "Ohh you can't get an Android phone / tablet... They just don't have anywhere near the kinds of apps that the iPhone has." Yeah, right.
 
jtm55 said:
Hi All

As I'm a physical therapist & not a programmer, is there a reason why there can't be two separate user interfaces 1 for desktop & 1 for touch screen?
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Certainly not. But I think MS's motivation for intertwining the "Modern UI" is that they wanted to get people familiar with it... and move them over to that new paradigm... and thus get them to become accustomed to sourcing their apps from the MS App Store.

Remember all this came about just as everyone was running around with their heads chopped off talking about how Apple is making like a gazillion dollars a second from their app store.
 
jwcalla said:
Gaming and a few other commercial apps that have very tiny marketshare (Photoshop, etc.), yeah that's true. But otherwise you'll be able to do just about anything on Ubuntu or OS X or whatever.
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I agree that the basics are covered in desktop Linux but there's lots of niches out there. Gaming, digital art, HTPC, etc. and all of those niches start to add up to significant numbers. And while we tend to talk of OSes as pure software manifestations the vast majority of users get their OS, be it a phone, tablet or PC, on the device. OEMs simply don't support Linux well enough. Sure basic desktops and laptops aren't a problem but again with the niches, there's lots of different Windows form factors now, hybrids, tablets, bigger touch devices.
 
jwcalla said:
Certainly not. But I think MS's motivation for intertwining the "Modern UI" is that they wanted to get people familiar with it... and move them over to that new paradigm... and thus get them to become accustomed to sourcing their apps from the MS App Store.

Remember all this came about just as everyone was running around with their heads chopped off talking about how Apple is making like a gazillion dollars a second from their app store.
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There's been a lot of talk about Microsoft copying Apple and sure there are elements in Windows 8 that could arguably be called copying. But Windows 8 is just another take on Microsoft's concept of the Tablet PC from over a decade ago. The Surface Pro is just another revision of Tablet PC hardware.

I know it's been said by a lot of folks that Microsoft was trying to get rid of the desktop and push all app sales through its own store. But the point of the Tablet PC has always been hybrid and non-keyboard mouse use while retaining the desktop. Indeed Windows 8 is the first attempt to bring true tablet and touch apps and a touch friendly UI to Windows. Unlike just slapping a desktop centric on to tablet and touch form factors.
 
Pantalaimon said:
I'm not assuming anything. They did not specify, how to improve the UI except demanding the Windows 7 UI back. So, for me it implies they consider it the best. They could have added that they want the Windows 7 UI back with a list of improvement suggestions, or specifying, that while it's not the best they prefer it over the Windows 8, 8.1, and 10.
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Pretty sure it's safe to say people want the Win 7 UI back because it's the best option of all existing versions of Windows.

jwcalla said:
...running around with their heads chopped off...
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LOL! The term is "running around like chickens with their heads cut off". People with their heads chopped off don't run around a whole lot.
 
Parja said:
Pretty sure it's safe to say people want the Win 7 UI back because it's the best option of all existing versions of Windows.
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Best is arguable. Certainly the Windows 7 UI has been very familiar to a lot of folks and there are places in the Windows 8.1 UI that aren't as keyboard and mouse friendly as they need to be. But I wouldn't want the Windows 7 UI to be the only UI on my Surface Pro 3 or other Windows tablets and touch devices.
 
heatlesssun said:
Best is arguable. Certainly the Windows 7 UI has been very familiar to a lot of folks and there are places in the Windows 8.1 UI that aren't as keyboard and mouse friendly as they need to be. But I wouldn't want the Windows 7 UI to be the only UI on my Surface Pro 3 or other Windows tablets and touch devices.
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I think consumers have shown that they have no need or want for a blended hybrid desktop for anything other than a tablet/laptop like the SP3, which can utilize both effectively. I know on my desktop the first thing I did in Win 10 beta was to remove all the apps from the right hand side and tweak it to be as much a Win 7 UI as possible.
 
heatlesssun said:
I agree that the basics are covered in desktop Linux but there's lots of niches out there. Gaming, digital art, HTPC, etc. and all of those niches start to add up to significant numbers. And while we tend to talk of OSes as pure software manifestations the vast majority of users get their OS, be it a phone, tablet or PC, on the device. OEMs simply don't support Linux well enough. Sure basic desktops and laptops aren't a problem but again with the niches, there's lots of different Windows form factors now, hybrids, tablets, bigger touch devices.
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Video editing isn't on the same level either. I wouldn't consider multimedia work in general + gaming a "niche" exactly.

But Windows 8 is just another take on Microsoft's concept of the Tablet PC from over a decade ago.
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It's even older than that:

Windows-8-Demotivator.jpg
 
HoffY said:
No, they dont. And it would help immensely if you mob would stop assuming absolute extremes like this ever time someone tries to explain in frustration of having ot put up with so much bullshit all the time.

There isa million things i could make better in Windows 7. But taking what does work away... or limiting the user's options or ability to customize the user interface.. DOES ... NOT... MAKE... THINGS... BETTER!!!!!!!!!! FFS!

Can't you lot get this through your thick skulls?
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Yeah aren't limited on customization at all with Windows 8. You want a start menu? Set it up. You want a rainbow pony wallpaper? Set it up. Stop expecting operating system defaults to suit everyone magically any more than you demand McDonald's sets their cheeseburger default toppings to your specific liking. It's absurd. Go set it up like everyone else does how they want. In the time it will have taken you to read this post and complain about how clueless I must be, you could have done it ;).
 
ktk said:
Dont feed the troll :D
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Just because someone doesn't agree with you and won't praise your opinion that is based on wrong information as magically brilliant and it hurts your feelings they won't just see it your way because you're so incredibly right, DOESN'T MAKE THEM A TROLL. It just means you have a different opinion. Period. Other people do too.
 
pcjunkie said:
I think consumers have shown that they have no need or want for a blended hybrid desktop for anything other than a tablet/laptop like the SP3, which can utilize both effectively. I know on my desktop the first thing I did in Win 10 beta was to remove all the apps from the right hand side and tweak it to be as much a Win 7 UI as possible.
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They have been an awful lot of cheap Windows tablets hitting the market this holiday season and they seem to be doing pretty well. You can even get a $180 netbook Windows 8.1 hybrid from Walmart. My sister saw it and that's what you wants for Christmas. She's nowhere near a technical person but she instantly got the idea. Something that she could use to type up Word documents and something that she could use a tablet to web surf. She has a 7" Galaxy Tab 3 but wants a tablet with a bigger screen.

But even on a desktop, some modern apps have their use. Not anything in the way of productivity but PCs are used for more than productivity. There is a decent assortment of media consumption apps and games and sometimes the apps have advantages over web sites. The Netflix app supports 5.1 Dolby Surround for instance. I think getting modern apps to work like desktop apps will certainly improve the reach and use of them.
 
GoldenTiger said:
Yeah aren't limited on customization at all with Windows 8. You want a start menu? Set it up. You want a rainbow pony wallpaper? Set it up. Stop expecting operating system defaults to suit everyone magically any more than you demand McDonald's sets their cheeseburger default toppings to your specific liking. It's absurd.
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Disingenuous post of the day!

The problem isn't just defaults. Windows 8.1 is still a mess of a mashup of a tablet and desktop UIs, poorly integrated both for usage and administration. Changing a default setting isn't the problem, it's a problem with Windows' design and usability. Sinofsky lost his job over this mess, so don't pretend everything is a-o-k.

Microsoft's by far largest segment of customers (business/corporate is 3 times larger than the consumer segments for Windows license sales) do not want Windows 8.x. Vista, poster child of Microsoft OS failure, was adopted at a faster rate by businesses than Windows 8.x. Mistakes happen, but the tragedy is that MS is riding this failtrain to Windows 10 station.
 
Ashbringer said:
Besides that Android typically runs on ARM CPUs while Linux typically runs on x86 CPUs. I know that doesn't stop both OS's from running on those CPU architectures but the apps don't always follow.

It's also the same reason why you can't run Linux applications on your Linux router. The kernel is just one piece of what makes an OS. ChromeOS is also Linux but everyone hates it.

http://regmedia.co.uk/2014/04/30/watt_compatibility_large.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]

Actually, programs and such can be recompiled for the MIPS ISA, so technically, yes, those routers can run those very programs a majority of the time. ;)


@heat and everyone else: Microsoft [I]needs[/I] to have a desktop/laptop mode and tablet mode, enabling and disabling different features, assuming they truly want to please everyone on every platform.
This would truly make everyone happy, not to mention be able to run the same OS.

One-size-fits-all OSes rarely work, and while I am impressed at how far this has come, I do have to say that there are still a lot of unhappy people who are forced to work with this.
But, like Windows 8, I'm sure there will be a ClassicShell (or similar) program for individuals to use in order to easily fix these GUI issues.
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pxc said:
Changing a default setting isn't the problem, it's a problem with Windows' design and usability.
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I've lost count of complaints about Windows 8 that are easily addressed with changing defaults. How many times have people complained about modern apps being set as the default and people not knowing how to set app defaults, which has been a feature in Windows for how long now? That's why in Windows 8.1 app defaults were switched back to desktop apps when Windows is installed on a device with a keyboard and mouse.

pxc said:
Microsoft's by far largest segment of customers (business/corporate is 3 times larger than the consumer segments for Windows license sales) do not want Windows 8.x. Vista, poster child of Microsoft OS failure, was adopted at a faster rate by businesses than Windows 8.x. Mistakes happen, but the tragedy is that MS is riding this failtrain to Windows 10 station.
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Windows 8, no matter how well received it might have been was never going to see wide scale business adoption due to timing. We just finished our XP to 7 migration last year and we were never going to another wide scale so soon. That said, we are actually beginning to support Windows 8 due to BYOD and some users can request 8.1 on company hardware now.
 
Red Falcon said:
@heat and everyone else: Microsoft needs to have a desktop/laptop mode and tablet mode, enabling and disabling different features, assuming they truly want to please everyone on every platform.
This would truly make everyone happy, not to mention be able to run the same OS.
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Agreed and that looks to be the point of Continuum.

Red Falcon said:
One-size-fits-all OSes rarely work, and while I am impressed at how far this has come, I do have to say that there are still a lot of unhappy people who are forced to work with this.
But, like Windows 8, I'm sure there will be a ClassicShell (or similar) program for individuals to use in order to easily fix these GUI issues.
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And there were also a lot of people that had no issues working with the new UI or those that hopped on the H8 train and really never used Windows 8. Of course there were problems there and I've stated such many times. I think many of the issues with vastly overstated. Like setting app defaults if you don't like modern apps. Tons of complaints over that one and the ability to change defaults easily has been there for a long time. But get some people just a little bit out there comfort zone and they freak out.
 
I think re-learning, or learning something new, was the biggest issue. ;)
While I didn't agree with everything in the new GUI, it was usable, and ClassicShell fixed everything for us old-schoolers to begin with.
 
heatlesssun said:
Thing is when anyone actually does try to talk about Windows in these FrontPage posts these days it's impossible. Most of the people making the most noise are self-proclaimed non-Windows users. You praise the wonders of Mint and how you don't use Windows because of it. Wonderful. Apparently you don't like Windows and don't use it, more power to you. I don't understand why people who think Windows is garbage and don't use it feel so compelled to post in threads about Windows.
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Maybe because Microsoft is evil and Bill Gates is all about population control through use of vaccines? Oh... Who cares about silly shit like that. What matters is where the search function is located.
 
Not to mention Bill Gates ripped off Gary Kildall for everything he has. He is a fraud, and an evil, dangerous one at that.
 
MisterHipster said:
Not to mention Bill Gates ripped off Gary Kildall for everything he has. He is a fraud, and an evil, dangerous one at that.
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I don't understand what you mean. MS purchased 86-DOS, an unauthorized but legal CP/M clone, from a local developer, and in negotiations with IBM to provide DOS for the IBM PC, virtually all of the code was re-written. While DOS has some superficial similarities to CP/M (many API functions are the same, drive letters), DOS surpassed CP/M in most other ways.

None of that was critically fatal to CP/M, especially since the two OSs were not binary or largely API compatible and CP/M had a software base which could be ported to the PC, but pricing was. Digital Research was asking the equivalent of today's $1300 ($495 separately or $240 bundled from IBM with a PC in 1981) for the OS when IBM was selling DOS for around $100 in today's dollars ($40 in 1981), both based on CPI inflation.

Claiming that "Bill Gates ripped off Gary Kildall for everything he has" is just objectively wrong. It is certainly correct to say that DOS stole ideas from CP/M, but it was pretty far from even being a clone in the form IBM and MS released to the public.
 
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