Lawmakers Take Aim At Videogames

[HardOCP News]

Lawmakers are going after the ESRB again (yes, over Manhunt 2). Apparently there aren’t enough laws to be passed, taxes to be cut…these guys have to micromanage the video game rating process.

Sens. Sam Brownback (R-Kan.), Evan Bayh (D-Ind.), Joe Lieberman (I-Conn.) and Clinton (D-N.Y.) sent a letter Monday to the Entertainment Software Rating Board, saying the rating change from the original Adults Only to Mature for "Manhunt 2" raises "a number of serious issues" about the board's ratings.

 

[InorganicMatter]

Why the big stink over video games? Movies that come out every week are more "perverted" than even the most extreme of video games, why aren't they going after government regulation there instead of attacking an industry as small as video games? Hell, we've got a self-regulated tried-and-true rating system in both movies and games, why do we need government regulation at all?!?

 

[[RIP]Zeus]

As gamers and [H]ard Enthusiast, we all know Manhunt2 SUCKS

the only reason Manhunt 2 is getting all this fucked up press is cause of these stupid ass moronic politians who can't seem to get a grasp on reality, and that they are the ones disconnected from the real world.

If only, just ONE time, a politian does somthing right. I probaly would die from shock.

 

[[RIP]Zeus]

Why the big stink over video games? Movies that come out every week are more "perverted" than even the most extreme of video games, why aren't they going after government regulation there instead of attacking an industry as small as video games? Hell, we've got a self-regulated tried-and-true rating system in both movies and games, why do we need government regulation at all?!?

Because, most politians feel that they need to control our life. they feel we do not have proper responisbilty to control it ourself. You can also blame all the god damn soccer moms to...

 

[superkdogg]

Apparently there aren’t enough laws to be passed, taxes to be cut

Only an idiot would cut taxes and increase spending by about a trillion dollars per year...oh, wait a second....

Yeah, ESRB is stupid to begin with. Who knows, maybe they'll come up with something better. Waste of time, probably, but since Bush vetoes everything he didn't come up with, and can't force through is policies anymore Congress actually should be looking for something to do.

 

[RandomNY]

Only an idiot would cut taxes and increase spending by about a trillion dollars per year...oh, wait a second....

Yeah, ESRB is stupid to begin with. Who knows, maybe they'll come up with something better. Waste of time, probably, but since Bush vetoes everything he didn't come up with, and can't force through is policies anymore Congress actually should be looking for something to do.

Hmm you mean the tax cuts that sent our economy into record expansion over the last 6 years or so? Yea god forbid jobs get created... Here's an idea let's go back to the Carter days of 70% Federal income tax rates and almost 15% unemployment, but hey the gov't had a surplus for alittle while so it was ok right?

If you feel like you aren't paying enough in taxes just cut the check to the IRS...

GW lower the tax rate a huge 3%, OH MY GOD!!!!

How about Congress actually reducing the $1.5 TRILLION DOLLARS spent every year on the War on Poverty, which we have been fighting for over 40 years....

Or how about not giving our corn farmers another $300 BILLION to not grow corn to eat, and still let them produce ethonal, which is more profitable that dinner corn....

 

[HardOCP News]

Only an idiot would cut taxes and increase spending by about a trillion dollars per year...oh, wait a second....

I was going to say something about your comment but the post before mine goes so far up in you, I don't think there is room for two.

ANYHOW...making laws / cutting taxes was an example of things politicians were elected to do, not micromanage video game ratings...which IS the topic at hand, lets stick to the topic at hand please and not get off on taxes.

 

[Vorazan]

I'm not an American, but I'd assume that the governement has much bigger issues at hand than some stupid video games.

Honestly, OMG video game violence... and yet the Saw movie is its 4th installment... sure, you can see people get dismembered, but god forbid someone make a game about it... hypocricy.

I think its just a way for politicians to direct public attention AWAY from important stuff like poverty, education (lack of such), war in Iraq etc, and direct soccer mom's wrath against video games.

 

[theDreamer]

It is a way to hide things, but it is mostly happening because people who bitch out load usually get more attention. People got all up in arms and made noise about Manhunt 2, so the government either does something or "the people" will be upset and Congressmen(women) may lose votes and that would be bad.

 

[Mav451]

Just as Falcone says in Batman Begins: "You always fear what you don't understand."

In this case, for a soccer mom/politician to think they even understand video games is saying a business major understands engineering. That analogy extends that business majors will pretend they understand engineering in the same way soccer moms think they understand video games. And unfortunately for both, soccer moms and businessman are always louder/whinier than engineers/gamers.

 

[[RIP]Zeus]

Just as Falcone says in Batman Begins: "You always fear what you don't understand."

In this case, for a soccer mom/politician to think they even understand video games is saying a business major understands engineering. That analogy extends that business majors will pretend they understand engineering in the same way soccer moms think they understand video games. And unfortunately for both, soccer moms and businessman are always louder/whinier than engineers/gamers.

/signed

 

[Vorazan]

Well, they allow to kill people in Halo, but as long as there's not too much blood... but you cant dismember people in Manhunt 2... cause "its too much"... so you can still kill people in video games, as long as its not too realistic...

Death is death. The end result is all that matters. If you can kill people, that automatically should qualify for an M. But nooooo, they have to single out games with excessive violence... and overlook the ones in which you slaughter thousands but with less detail.

 

[AARGH!]

I just wish Rockstar would just go away. They are the #1 cause of all this controversy just so they can sell more games, while bringing all this heat down on the entire game industry.

Rockstar and politicians are in it for the same thing, greed.

 

[[RIP]Zeus]

I just wish Rockstar would just go away. They are the #1 cause of all this controversy just so they can sell more games, while bringing all this heat down on the entire game industry.

Rockstar and politicians are in it for the same thing, greed.

Rockstar is doing this for the Fame and Glory.

Think about it, the more these politians/soccer mom bitch, whine and moan, the more rockstar gets attention for games that blow ass.

Sale for the game go up with negitive press. Thanks to these bitching whore bags, otherwise the game would not sell cause it sucks something horrible.

But yes in the end. They are both doing it for Greed. but i think Rockstar is doing to start somthing.

 

[InorganicMatter]

Hmm you mean the tax cuts that sent our economy into record expansion over the last 6 years or so? Yea god forbid jobs get created... Here's an idea let's go back to the Carter days of 70% Federal income tax rates and almost 15% unemployment, but hey the gov't had a surplus for alittle while so it was ok right?

Short term gain, long term loss. I guess you haven't been paying attention lately, but we're about to go into a record recession, and everything you just mentioned is to blame for it.

 

[Azhar]

Personally I'm glad Rockstar's here. It keeps attention away from other good games that would otherwise get hammered. Other companies might sell out, but we know Rockstar is the Larry Flint of video games and will tell the government where to shove it. It keeps them busy.

 

[Vorazan]

There's no such thing as bad publicity. A kid sees a game in the news that's "really bad" and all the adults are raging over it, without ever touching it. The kid says, wow, I'll be really "badass" if I somehow get it. So he goes out of his way and gets it, plays it and brags to his peers. Its the same way with smoking, adults say its bad, so I'll be cool if I do it.

I'd rather have kids play games than smoke. But in the end, Rockstar +1 to sales.

 

[Clockworks]

Hmm you mean the tax cuts that sent our economy into record expansion over the last 6 years or so? Yea god forbid jobs get created... Here's an idea let's go back to the Carter days of 70% Federal income tax rates and almost 15% unemployment, but hey the gov't had a surplus for alittle while so it was ok right?

If you feel like you aren't paying enough in taxes just cut the check to the IRS...

GW lower the tax rate a huge 3%, OH MY GOD!!!!

How about Congress actually reducing the $1.5 TRILLION DOLLARS spent every year on the War on Poverty, which we have been fighting for over 40 years....

Or how about not giving our corn farmers another $300 BILLION to not grow corn to eat, and still let them produce ethonal, which is more profitable that dinner corn....

Please back up those numbers, $1.5 is a shitload of money spent every year, especially since the estimated budget for 2007 was about$2.4 trillion. What do you consider "War on Poverty?"

 

[FlabbyBoy]

Hey Steve,

Please don't make the same mistake as Ars Technica: they pepper otherwise relevant articles with overt political bias. The readers of the [H] respect you guys for your technical prowess. We truly appreciate what a great resource this site has become over the years.

I, for one, have decide that Ars Technica can keep its activism to itself. I would hate to see you guys start following the same path--making the kinds of political jabs that display more your ignorance of economics than display your technical knowedge. I don't think this is the place for political discourse. There are plenty of other sites devoted to such topics. I avoid them like the plague because I don't enjoy the general name-calling and childishness that exist at such places.

I don't know about your other readers, but I guess that many of them feel the same way.

At the same time, I treasure the roastings that you some time hand out to tech companies and individuals who sometimes do really dumb things. Can you keep it at that?

Ray Ross

 

[theDreamer]

Guess you have missed many news threads then, [H] has posted news from tech, politics, to stupid videos of funny things, to just about anything that may or sometimes can be tied to things here.

 

[NeoNemesis]

Whats ironic is that these are the same people that fought against censorship of their bands back when legislators thought artists like Elvis and Frank Sinatra were perverting the youth. In 30-40 years it will be gamers in office making legislation against some new form of entertainment. Its a vicious cycle of stupidity but in the end its absolutely meaningless because the opposing generation eventually dies out and is replaced by the supporting generation.

 

[HardOCP News]

stuff, stuff, stuff

I have no idea how you deem what I said in that news post as “ignorant, name-calling and childishness”

Then again, if saying we expect publicly elected officials to attend to the matters we elected them to do (taxes and laws) and steer clear of political grandstanding on petty (non)issues that affect our readers….I’d say I am guilty of that.

Anyhow, I apologize if someone told you that the [H] is not opinionated…they lied.

 

[superkdogg]

I was going to say something about your comment but the post before mine goes so far up in you, I don't think there is room for two.

ANYHOW...making laws / cutting taxes was an example of things politicians were elected to do, not micromanage video game ratings...which IS the topic at hand, lets stick to the topic at hand please and not get off on taxes.

It's all good for both of you guys. There's plenty of room for two, as long as it's you two

I can disagree respectfully. Now we're even.


Anyways, Congress' job is not to cut taxes, it's to make laws (you're right on that part). Since lawmaking is at a virtual standstill because of vetoes and not enough votes to override them, (the issue at hand is why is Congress taking this up, right?) then they're looking into something. That's better than not doing anything, right?

The ESRB is still not anybody's answer to anything, so why not look at it and possibly change it one way or the other?

Despite the fact that the topic itself is so politically/personally charged that it basically can't be debated intelligently because at least one side and often both has a purely visceral reaction that precludes rational thought, I chose to comment. I pretty much expected the answers you guys gave.

I guess the alternative to reveiwing the ESRB and looking into whether or not things should be changed is to keep it exactly the same, implying that it works so well it's beyond alteration? Yeah, let's do that instead. Either that or pass a few hundred more important bills and have them all vetoed and accomplish even less.

Next time consider some context before you spout off.

 

[HardOCP News]

I guess the alternative to reveiwing the ESRB and looking into whether or not things should be changed is to keep it exactly the same, implying that it works so well it's beyond alteration? Yeah, let's do that instead. Either that or pass a few hundred more important bills and have them all vetoed and accomplish even less.

Here's context for you:

What makes games any different from Movies? Or, are you saying that ALL self-governing bodies in the entertainment industry (movies and music included) need to be scrutinized by the government?

Exactly where is the ESRB falling short? You have to be 17 to watch the Texas Chainsaw Massacre, you should have to be 17 to play Manhunt 2. Both were rated 17+, where do you see the industry failing?

Specific answers would be appreciated.

 

[phide]

The ESRB is still not anybody's answer to anything, so why not look at it and possibly change it one way or the other?

The ESRB was the industry's answer to increasing pressure from consumers and Congress. It still is. It's still working, and working just fine.

 

[superkdogg]

Basically you guys are jumping off the deep end before you've checked if there's water in the pool.

It's the typical "Oh Noes!!!! Deh's goan tayk way ma' games!!!"

When there's a controversial game (or movie, just that the movie industry seldom tests the boundary) there's always an accompanying story about some lawmaker(s) who want to look into what's going on.

All politics is grandstanding. Everybody is taking a stance on something, some of it's of critical importance, some isn't but since the actions of Congress are widely reported it's all grandstanding. If your constituents agree, then you're doing it right. If they don't, they'll vote differently.

If you guys feel as strongly as you do, contact your friends who live in those districts (do it yourself if you live there) which elect the congressmen in question. Tell them to write letters and email and call to express their displeasure. Take your recourse to the source rather than the message board-it will accomplish more.

The real difference between video games and movies (no specific citation needed-common knowledge) is that video gamers are a vocal minority, whereas moviegoers are a realtively quiet majority. There are a lot of us who don't realize that the majority of people don't play video games. It's like a sports fan who lives and dies with his team and can't understand that most people don't care at all. For example, Mike Vick's biggest mistake was not breaking federal laws, it was killing dogs. There are a lot more pet lovers than NFL fans, hard as that may be to conceptualize. There are especially a lot more pet lovers than avid NFL fans.

The other major difference between games and movies is that the movie industry is well established and the common person is comfortable with how movies are rated. ESRB ratings are simply not as mature. They may be equally effective, but parents know what R rated means and don't know what M rated means in a functional sense. If the ratings are around long enough, this gap should close, right now it's pretty sizable. Let alone that most congressmen/women are grandparents who have even less knowledge about game ratings.

In general, my statement can be condensed to: understand the process, don't fear it. You are best served to react with rationality rather than defensiveness. Have you ever tried to challenge authority directly by discrediting it? How does that work as opposed to explaining your point of view and telling the other party about the value of your way of thinking and why it's in their best interest to take into account how you think?

It doesn't bother me that you guys feel the way you do, and I'm not even saying I terribly disagree with you in principle. What I disagree with is the course of response. The only reason that I even voiced my opinion is because I have a problem with knee-jerk reactions supplanting rational thought and this trend appears to be accelerating. It's simply more mature and more effective to self-advocate than to complain.

 

[superkdogg]

The ESRB was the industry's answer to increasing pressure from consumers and Congress. It still is. It's still working, and working just fine.

I didn't mean that comment literally though I understand how it was taken that way. What I really meant is that no party is truly happy with the ESRB. To me that means that it might be adjustable to make it better.

 

[SPARTAN VI]

When I bought Crysis last week, the Game Stop rep asked to see my ID... I was carded to buy a game..

I'm 21 and Crysis is rated M (17+). I guess I should be flattered.

 

[theDreamer]

Your point is though that ESRB is not working?
When in fact it is doing a better job than the MPAA and a better control on the products and items it rates. Also, a M rated video game is easy to understand because it stated on it, "M - Mature 17+," while a R rated movie just states restricted. Yes the MPAA has been around longer enforcing it ways, but the ESRB has taken a stronger stance with its rating system and attempts to not make errors.

 

[prtzlboy]

Here's context for you:

What makes games any different from Movies? Or, are you saying that ALL self-governing bodies in the entertainment industry (movies and music included) need to be scrutinized by the government?

Exactly where is the ESRB falling short? You have to be 17 to watch the Texas Chainsaw Massacre, you should have to be 17 to play Manhunt 2. Both were rated 17+, where do you see the industry failing?

Specific answers would be appreciated.

People who vote for politicians that go after video games are the only failures here.

I really wish they'd just use the same ratings as movies, though. It would end any "confusion" arguments. Those arguments are just for the illiterate, though, since all the ESRB ratings state right on them the appropriate ages. (I actually think ESRB is better than movie ratings but oh well)

 

[prtzlboy]

oh and like the poster above stated: Write your congressperson.

And, for the love of god, VOTE.

 

[FlabbyBoy]

OK, theDreamer, you are right that there are political posts all the time at this site. I'm just disappointed to see a gratuitous jab such as I just read in this one. Steve automatically assumes that we agree with him that tax cuts are bad, with no logical discussion to back him up. At least that is how I read it, and how others in this forum seem to read it.
It seems obvious that we want our tech-related laws to be liberal, since the target audience for [H]ard|ocp is tech-oriented. What is not obvious is that we share the liberal mindset that seems to say "taxes are always good, and higher taxes are even better." A jab at tax policy --and a hint that law-enforcement is automatically stunted due to such policy--should be backed up with facts. Don't assume that such statements will be left unchallenged. I doubt Steve could say such things as "ATI cuts research funds, expects fabs to produce more." First off, it's not clear that research funds have anything to do with fabs producing more; Just as it is irresponsible to say that tax cuts implies that law-enforcement has to do more with less.
If Steve had said that the ESRB has had funding cuts, at the same time that they are expected to do more, then I could see a point there. But: "tax cuts = bad" is a lame simpleton statement. It's the kind of whitewash statement that the lefties use all the time. It takes the place of reasoned argument in their world.
By the way, I agree with Steve when he implies that more laws are not the answer. We do have too many laws. And we already have laws that deal with the subject at hand. Unfortunately, rather than expecting (and demanding) that existing laws be enforced, Congress likes to pass ever more rigid laws.

 

[Elios]

i just read the whole thing what really bugs me is the comment about the Wii
they seem to think just becouse a game is on it that its aimed at kids
well we have Wii here and last i checked theres no one under 21 even in this house

people seem to forget that that adults play games too...

 

[Team Obi Juan]

What a bunch of cock suckers. Can I say that?

 

[superkdogg]

Your point is though that ESRB is not working?
When in fact it is doing a better job than the MPAA and a better control on the products and items it rates. Also, a M rated video game is easy to understand because it stated on it, "M - Mature 17+," while a R rated movie just states restricted. Yes the MPAA has been around longer enforcing it ways, but the ESRB has taken a stronger stance with its rating system and attempts to not make errors.

Design is not what determines if a system is better-that would be evaluation of the system without an end product.

Function is the determinant of the quality of a system. Promising designs fail all the time in every field because of some overlooked factor. Effective function is self-evident.

My point actually is that if you don't like what your government is doing, take action for yourself other than whining on a internet message board.

 

[theDreamer]

Design is not what determines if a system is better-that would be evaluation of the system without an end product.

Function is the determinant of the quality of a system. Promising designs fail all the time in every field because of some overlooked factor. Effective function is self-evident.

My point actually is that if you don't like what your government is doing, take action for yourself other than whining on a internet message board.

I have no problem with the way the government control is on the MPAA or ESRB, each side is doing its job in its restriction of games or movies. The problem here is that "other" people do not understand these systems and attempt to change them when they have no clue that the problem is not ESRB or MPAA but maybe them or someone else.

 

[HardOCP News]

OK, theDreamer, you are right that there are political posts all the time at this site. I'm just disappointed to see a gratuitous jab such as I just read in this one. Steve automatically assumes that we agree with him that tax cuts are bad, with no logical discussion to back him up. At least that is how I read it, and how others in this forum seem to read it.
It seems obvious that we want our tech-related laws to be liberal, since the target audience for [H]ard|ocp is tech-oriented. What is not obvious is that we share the liberal mindset that seems to say "taxes are always good, and higher taxes are even better." A jab at tax policy --and a hint that law-enforcement is automatically stunted due to such policy--should be backed up with facts. Don't assume that such statements will be left unchallenged. I doubt Steve could say such things as "ATI cuts research funds, expects fabs to produce more." First off, it's not clear that research funds have anything to do with fabs producing more; Just as it is irresponsible to say that tax cuts implies that law-enforcement has to do more with less.
If Steve had said that the ESRB has had funding cuts, at the same time that they are expected to do more, then I could see a point there. But: "tax cuts = bad" is a lame simpleton statement. It's the kind of whitewash statement that the lefties use all the time. It takes the place of reasoned argument in their world.
By the way, I agree with Steve when he implies that more laws are not the answer. We do have too many laws. And we already have laws that deal with the subject at hand. Unfortunately, rather than expecting (and demanding) that existing laws be enforced, Congress likes to pass ever more rigid laws.

Holy cow!!!!!! You are 180 the wrong direction here.

I apologize that you went off on this rant here but you TOTALLY misread what I said AND...you obviously don't read the [H] much. We are 100% the opposite of what you said....as is what I wrote.

Trust me, if that is what you think, nobody shares that line of thinking.

Please, re-read what I said (tax cuts for us are good, always have been).


Wow. Just wow.

 

[FlabbyBoy]

Steve,

I did not say that you, personally, were name-calling, childish, etc. What I said (or meant to say) is that cheap shots such as "laws to be passed, taxes to be cut…" are the usual tactics of the sort of people who are and do such things. It is beneath you and this site to say such things. Your implication that tax cuts have caused problems in the ESRB's law-enforcement capabiities is ludicrous. I expect better from those who will engage in "meaningful" argument.As such, what you said was not illuminating.

Ray Ross

 

[superkdogg]

My other point is that in a democratic republic like the US's, sometimes you're the majority and sometimes you're the minority. Nobody minds much when they get to win, but as soon as some governmental body takes some action, everybody assumes they are right and "those f'in CS'ers" can't do this to me!!!

I'll say it again, it's in the minority's best interest to seek and accept compromise. There's never been an instance that I know of where an American government body froze video game sales, and until that happens (hint: it won't) there's really not much to complain about.

What is it exactly that you guys are afraid of, and how likely is it really to happen?

Are you not just getting your undies in a bunch for no good reason?

If ESRB ratings are fundamentally changed because of this, I'll eat my hat.

 

[FlabbyBoy]

OK. I posted the last message before I read the one that you just posted. Sorry about that. If you meant to imply that tax cuts are good, it certainly did not come across that way. We need to be careful with what we say (and read, apparently).