Lack of innovation of Mice

Comixbooks

Comixbooks

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There doesn't seem to be much innovation of mice it's the same old designs. You got the Logitech G502 which was announced at Pax 2014 then Razer copied the design with the Ballisik which might be better than the Logitech the side buttons seem better. I never was a fan of the Logitech G502. Right now I'm using a Logitech G203 blue one but I have my Logitech Chaos for the multi button presses in MMO. Most new mice today are FPS focused but who the hell plays FPS games anymore there hasn't been anything good except for like Trepang 2 and maybe Ready or Not.

Maybe sales are down for mice and people are just using X-Bone controllers instead which could be a big reason and esports is just driving mouse design.
 
I was sad when my Microsoft SideWinder Gaming Mouse finally broke after like 15+ years.
 

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Logitech MX Master 3S - https://a.co/d/aOrsnD9
Looks good to me.
Kensington Pro Fit® Ergo (K75326WW) - https://a.co/d/ho8rUHG
Probably what I would get if mine stopped working

Fwiw, the microsoft mice work really well...when the signal isn't dropping. I liked both my logitech and kensington mice, but the logitech buttons fail after a while of...spirited clicking. My kensington was damaged in a drop, but it's buttons probably would have failed the same way anyway, they appear to be the same kind of button.
 
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Could be worse you could be left handed (ask me how I know?... well because I'm left handed obviously)...

The number of Ambidextrous mice worth buy has shrunk seemingly.... I have 3x Steel Series Sensei mice of various ages~ and if something doesn't change I may be using these for the foreseeable future.

I prefer ambi designs because I switch hands when using the mouse depending on what I am working on... and I have a injury to my right ring finger which makes ergo designs uncomfortable when mousing right handed anyways.
 
Well, a rodent is a rodent is a rodent.... with the minor exceptions of the so-called ergo's, rollerballers, verticals, and uber-flatters, it's pretty much been defined/refined about as far as it can go, barring a complete redesign & overhaul of the actual form factor, which would be a very hard sell after all these years of practically everyone on the planet being used to the current shapes/sizes/layouts etc....

For the past few years, I just been using my positronic quantum neural interface, and it works well enough for me, but it cost WAY moar than any rodent ever could, hehehe :) /s
 
It begs the question: what sort of innovation is necessary for a mouse?

Companies like Logitech and Razer already are making mice with absurd polling rates, abilities to shift polling modes on the fly, magnetic roller scrolling wheels, fully programmable macro buttons, lasers that work on virtually any surface including glass, ergonomically shaped, interiorly reinforced using space age materials (well that one might be a stretch), teflon (or other slippery) coated feet, and come with annoying full RGB.

What else do you want or need?

If it‘s just about being “different”, then companies like “Glorious” also exist. And there are probably a few hyper-niche brands for semi-custom mice out there.
https://www.gloriousgaming.com/products/model-o-2
 
A lot of them are made from the same components, maybe even in the same factory, with just slightly tweaked ergonomics and eyecandy. The parts might fit a bit differently in the shell, but it's more or less the same product, so I can see where they're coming from.

That said, there are outliers if you look around. Probably have to look outside places like amazon/newegg to find them, though. Maybe avoid google, etc, as well.
 
Hulk said:
I was sad when my Microsoft SideWinder Gaming Mouse finally broke after like 15+ years.
Click to expand...

I always wanted one of these. In one of PC Gamer's How to Build A Gaming PC issues back around 08 when I first got into this thing of ours, that was the mouse they picked for the build. I'd never seen a gaming mouse before and thought it was gorgeous and had to have it. I was broke as hell tho and by the time I could afford luxuries like that, they didn't make it anymore. I wish they'd bring it back.
 
KazeoHin said:
personally, Mice are doing fine.

I just wish Webcams would evolve past the year 2005

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The issue with webcams is physics.

The reason why cellphone cameras have been able to have a marked improvement is they are slowly increasing the physical size of the sensor, as well as increasing the size of the optics. This has lead to top cellphones having to have a camera that is the full interior width of the phone but it still necessitates a bulge out the back. Optics is one of the major reasons why a cellphone will never replace a dSLR, because although a lot can be done with computational photography, you simply can’t “fake” much larger glass or much larger sensor sizes.

Going back to webcams, it’s because webcams are “forced” to be the thickness of a laptop lid. If it was “acceptable” to have a 1.5CM depth camera at the top of your laptop lid (not to mention 1.2CM or so height and width for the optics), you’d be able to have a camera with similar performance to a phone. This is actually why Apple has iPhone integration into their laptops (called Continuity Camera) to allow the phones to be able to be wirelessly used as webcams - and also for it’s “special trick” of being able to use computational videography to give an overlay view called desk view.

If you’d like a demonstration of Continuity camera and Desk View, you can see MKBHD’s short minute long demo or so here.

EDIT: Also as another minor side note, it’s also why the iPad Pro has a better “web camera” than all of the Macbook Pros, because the iPad can have optics the size of the full width of the 1CM thick iPad case. Though it still “sucks” in comparison to cellphone cameras - it’s better and allows for Apple’s other computational videography feature: center stage.

And a final side note, this is also why if you care about cam quality at your desk, you should probably invest either in a nice webcam (which you will note will be much wider/larger than a laptop lid), or if you’re more camera savvy mount your dSLR or cinema camera (that’s kind of a Philip Bloom joke) and use that as a webcam. For normies though, Apple’s phone option is legitimately one of the best. But of course requires being inside of the Apple ecosystem.
 
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I guess it comes down to what problem do most/all mice have that you are hoping is solved? I guess for me personally I would like to see more of a push for silent mice. I know there are a couple out there but keyboards and mice just move to louder clickier devices. All you hear in my engineering office is click click click click *frustrated rapid clicking*. Just seems like something I would want more widespread.
 
Darunion said:
I guess it comes down to what problem do most/all mice have that you are hoping is solved? I guess for me personally I would like to see more of a push for silent mice. I know there are a couple out there but keyboards and mice just move to louder clickier devices. All you hear in my engineering office is click click click click *frustrated rapid clicking*. Just seems like something I would want more widespread.
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Logitech MX Master 3s is designed to be incredibly quiet. But is more or less top in terms of cost. And just to be clear, it’s just specifically the 3S. “Sound” was one of the “innovations” with that mouse.
 
Not sure there is much else for mice to innovate on. My buddy had a logitech wireless mouse at least a decade ago you could pick up and use in the air, some remotes are using this tech now....

UnknownSouljer said:
The issue with webcams is physics.

Going back to webcams, it’s because webcams are “forced” to be the thickness of a laptop lid. If it was “acceptable” to have a 1.5CM depth camera at the top of your laptop lid (not to mention 1.2CM or so height and width for the optics), you’d be able to have a camera with similar performance to a phone.
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I would LOVE if we went back to thicker laptops, these ultra-super-thin designs are getting ridiculously easy to bend and brake, the screens are too fragile. Doesn't have to be much thicker at all to make the screen more durable, and add better thermal performance, as well as the better camera, better speakers, etc.
 
rhkcommander959 said:
Not sure there is much else for mice to innovate on. My buddy had a logitech wireless mouse at least a decade ago you could pick up and use in the air, some remotes are using this tech now....


I would LOVE if we went back to thicker laptops, these ultra-super-thin designs are getting ridiculously easy to bend and brake, the screens are too fragile. Doesn't have to be much thicker at all to make the screen more durable, and add better thermal performance, as well as the better camera, better speakers, etc.
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You are in the vast minority. I finished school back in 2009, and at the time I carried a 15” MBP, which was heavy by todays standards. I think it was 5.5lbs and change. Even in my 20’s I didn’t enjoy walking 20 minutes across campus, which I had to do everyday, with that laptop.
Right now I’m using an iPad Pro as my primary travel computing device, and if I just had dumb money to spend than I’d also have an MBA.

The MBA is gaining ground everywhere. Mostly because most people don’t need an insane gaming laptop to browse, do some occasional office work, do social media, edit the occasional photo, and watch Netflix. Meanwhile being under 2 lbs and having 10 hour battery life is perfect for all of those use cases. And if you really want that video quality, simply slap your iPhone onto the MBA lid.

17” desktop replacement laptops died, because they had no function for anyone outside of those that basically used it like a desktop and got moved VERY infrequently. If you do multiple international flights per year, and have to carry this thing around to work and back, then it quickly becomes “not fun”. And this is coming from a guy that travelled across Japan with 70lbs (at least) worth of gear and clothes etc, walking through train stations, subways, and terminals etc.

There isn’t really a way to separate mass from weight. And I’ll gladly give up video quality to do any level of daily travel carrying fewer lbs.
 
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Comixbooks said:
There doesn't seem to be much innovation of mice it's the same old designs. You got the Logitech G502 which was announced at Pax 2014 then Razer copied the design with the Ballisik which might be better than the Logitech the side buttons seem better. I never was a fan of the Logitech G502. Right now I'm using a Logitech G203 blue one but I have my Logitech Chaos for the multi button presses in MMO. Most new mice today are FPS focused but who the hell plays FPS games anymore there hasn't been anything good except for like Trepang 2 and maybe Ready or Not.

Maybe sales are down for mice and people are just using X-Bone controllers instead which could be a big reason and esports is just driving mouse design.
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At some point, a given device or concept reaches its peak and it becomes very difficult to improve upon the idea unless something radical comes along and replaces it. Mice have been around long enough that stagnation is to be expected. You can build higher quality mice for sure, but improving the ergonomics and functionality is a tall order.
 
harbingerofdoom said:
The lack of a decent gaming trackball is even worse.
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This isn't surprising given that such devices fell out of favor well over a decade ago. I don't think I saw any to speak of in stores much past the year 2000. Sure, there were a few up to around 2007 or so but by then there were only one or two models on most shelves.
 
Dan_D said:
At some point, a given device or concept reaches its peak and it becomes very difficult to improve upon the idea unless something radical comes along and replaces it. Mice have been around long enough that stagnation is to be expected. You can build higher quality mice for sure, but improving the ergonomics and functionality is a tall order.
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The reality is there is tons of innovation.They come out with weird mice and keyboard shit all the time and it usually doesn't catch on because like you said we're basically peaked out. Have you seen those weird hand skeleton keypads?

They also have tons of small changes that do become popular. Keyboard key switches have had all sorts of different mechanical types, now optical switches are becoming popular in keyboards and mice. There are all sorts of custom mice feet you can buy. Wireless charging while using the mouse. I see new stuff all the time
 
UnknownSouljer said:
The issue with webcams is physics.

The reason why cellphone cameras have been able to have a marked improvement is they are slowly increasing the physical size of the sensor, as well as increasing the size of the optics. This has lead to top cellphones having to have a camera that is the full interior width of the phone but it still necessitates a bulge out the back. Optics is one of the major reasons why a cellphone will never replace a dSLR, because although a lot can be done with computational photography, you simply can’t “fake” much larger glass or much larger sensor sizes.

Going back to webcams, it’s because webcams are “forced” to be the thickness of a laptop lid. If it was “acceptable” to have a 1.5CM depth camera at the top of your laptop lid (not to mention 1.2CM or so height and width for the optics), you’d be able to have a camera with similar performance to a phone. This is actually why Apple has iPhone integration into their laptops (called Continuity Camera) to allow the phones to be able to be wirelessly used as webcams - and also for it’s “special trick” of being able to use computational videography to give an overlay view called desk view.

If you’d like a demonstration of Continuity camera and Desk View, you can see MKBHD’s short minute long demo or so here.

EDIT: Also as another minor side note, it’s also why the iPad Pro has a better “web camera” than all of the Macbook Pros, because the iPad can have optics the size of the full width of the 1CM thick iPad case. Though it still “sucks” in comparison to cellphone cameras - it’s better and allows for Apple’s other computational videography feature: center stage.

And a final side note, this is also why if you care about cam quality at your desk, you should probably invest either in a nice webcam (which you will note will be much wider/larger than a laptop lid), or if you’re more camera savvy mount your dSLR or cinema camera (that’s kind of a Philip Bloom joke) and use that as a webcam. For normies though, Apple’s phone option is legitimately one of the best. But of course requires being inside of the Apple ecosystem.
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It's webcams in general, a $500 phone will have a 30+Mpix camera capable of HDRI capture, running super high framerates for slow-mo capture and multiple lenses and decent enough low-light support.

a $300 webcam is 1080p30 and requires a studio lighting setup to work above 10FPS.

Same with Dashcams.
 
KazeoHin said:
It's webcams in general, a $500 phone will have a 30+Mpix camera capable of HDRI capture, running super high framerates for slow-mo capture and multiple lenses and decent enough low-light support.

a $300 webcam is 1080p30 and requires a studio lighting setup to work above 10FPS.
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There are quite a few high end webcam options that at least equal the fidelity of phones in terms of sensors and are likely much better in terms of optics owing to significantly larger glass.

https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/buying-guides/best-4k-webcam

As for frame rate options etc, that is a function of the processing power available (and sensor readout speed and some other complications but we don’t need to talk about all that). And sure, generally phones will have more there (though there are 90 fps webcam options), there generally isn’t a want or need for anything above 30 or perhaps 60. As it doesn’t really give more benefit to a talking head.
KazeoHin said:
Same with Dashcams.
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Dash cams are a whole other ballgame. Dash cams are all about trying to maximize the longest recording times.

In order to have greater fidelity there, you’d need higher end encoders, which would mean much higher bit rates, which would mean much shorter recording times.

Could they do it? Yes. But an a7s3 recording at 4K in 24 fps will tear through 1TB in 4 hours if you’re using all-intra XAVC S-I. Increase the frame rate, also increase the bitrate.

Dashcams generally want to record at least twice that length to a 128GB card. But if you want, there is nothing preventing you from mounting an A7SIII in your car if you want… other than cost.
 
Dan_D said:
This isn't surprising given that such devices fell out of favor well over a decade ago. I don't think I saw any to speak of in stores much past the year 2000. Sure, there were a few up to around 2007 or so but by then there were only one or two models on most shelves.
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They didnt quite fall out of favor among people who require them for daily use though. Mfgrs just got to a certain point & said "meh.. good enough" and the few that have tried to make improvements wound up making bad choices.
 
harbingerofdoom said:
They didnt quite fall out of favor among people who require them for daily use though. Mfgrs just got to a certain point & said "meh.. good enough" and the few that have tried to make improvements wound up making bad choices.
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How exactly does one require a trackball and can't use a mouse instead?
 
I had a trackball for a while in the 486 era, even in to my first Pentium 60, then in late 1999 or early 2000 Microsoft launched its optical mouse so I no longer had to clean balls, the era of my trackball was over.
 
SystemXS said:
I had a trackball for a while in the 486 era, even in to my first Pentium 60, then in late 1999 or early 2000 Microsoft launched its optical mouse so I no longer had to clean balls, the era of my trackball was over.
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im using the kensington expert to this day.
 
Dan_D said:
I'm really trying to understand this. How would a trackball work for someone in a case where a mouse wouldn't?
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repetitive strain injury, carpel tunnel, people who for whatever reason have a problem with gripping a mouse to pick it up, people with missing digits... the list is pretty long friend.
 
Comixbooks said:
There doesn't seem to be much innovation of mice it's the same old designs. You got the Logitech G502 which was announced at Pax 2014 then Razer copied the design with the Ballisik which might be better than the Logitech the side buttons seem better. I never was a fan of the Logitech G502. Right now I'm using a Logitech G203 blue one but I have my Logitech Chaos for the multi button presses in MMO. Most new mice today are FPS focused but who the hell plays FPS games anymore there hasn't been anything good except for like Trepang 2 and maybe Ready or Not.

Maybe sales are down for mice and people are just using X-Bone controllers instead which could be a big reason and esports is just driving mouse design.
Click to expand...

I think they are at a point where you pick a mouse and get used to it because there is no end to mouse choices if you also steer away from the mainstream brands. Myself, I'm a mouseaholic so I can't help wanting to buy a new mouse every so often. I have a couple dozen purchased over many years. MY issue is, and maybe because there are two many reviewers now is there is no consistency in the reviews. I get it, a mouse is a personal choice but it almost seems the youtuber reviews what to be different and they all select a random off the wall mouse/brand I've never heard of as their top favorite. I don't necessarily trust the mainstream review sites as I'd "assume" they get a kickback. Its usually a Logitech or Razer as their best pick.

Summary:
- To much inconsistency of the top mouse.
- PRICE!!! I was sorta ok with a mouse price of $70... The mice these "experts" are rating as top mice are usually $100 -> $150+ So my joy of buying a new mouse has come to a crawl. :cry:

I'm currently jumping between a Logitech Pro Superlight and a XTRFY MZ1
 
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I just go to Bestbuy and molest, I mean try out, all the mice there and choose whatever fits my giant mitt the best. Right now that's a G502 Hero, and it's good enough until it eventually double clicks like every Logitech mouse I have had does, then I'll have it replaced if it's under warranty still or go molest more mice.
 
SystemXS said:
I just go to Bestbuy and molest, I mean try out, all the mice there and choose whatever fits my giant mitt the best. Right now that's a G502 Hero, and it's good enough until it eventually double clicks like every Logitech mouse I have had does, then I'll have it replaced if it's under warranty still or go molest more mice.
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The double click eventually happens for all brands because they all use almost the same switches.. You gotta get optical switches to stop that. The G502x has them, it came out last year.
 
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sharknice said:
The double click eventually happens for all brands because they all use almost the same switches.. You gotta get optical switches to stop that. The G502x has them, it came out last year.
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That's good to know, thanks!
 
There are a number of developments in the area of mice and similar inputs. While its true things have slowed down over the past couple of decades for development with regards to input device styles - there aren't as many different layouts as there used to be during the arrivals of MMO and MOBA focused mice which I consider an unfortunate regression to no longer have those options - there are still some developments. A lot of them come down to weight ("holes cut out of it to make it lighter" is a major tend in the past few years) grip style, sensor, materials, and wireless capability/battery when it comes to small iterations. Logtech G, SteelSeries, and a few other traditional gaming brands like Razer continue to be popular is popular, but Glorious has been a nice new entry as well - I've thought about grabbing one of their Model i 2 Wireless mice as it has some nice side buttons and overall good features. There have been some one-off unique entries from other companies such as the Asus ROG Chakram X Origin which has an analog stick mounted in the thumb area plus buttons that are not simply a "grid" layout (I've never been a fan of MMO-grid spaces where you have nowhere to lift/move the mouse without setting a button to no function and/or when the grid buttons feel/shaped too much the same), and of course a whole ton of knock offs from no-name and aliexpress/taobao rebrands on Amazon and elsewhere.

There are some interesting devices being designed by a number out outliers though - these are the kind of niche things I tend to follow up if they're the right style, but they don't always pan out.

Ploopy - https://ploopy.co/ - Despite the silly name, Ploopy has been known for making both pre-fab 3D printed and user-assembled (requires soldering) kits for input devices (but have branched out - they've started with a Headphone kit recently). Many different types of trackballs and mice, made from 3D printed materials on one side (free specs to print your own if you wish), but premium, FOSS/libre, a and user-repairable components otherwise make for some unique inputs. I've considered grabbing the Thumb Trackball, Mouse, and/or Nano trackball with the latter especially useful for those who have split ergonomic keyboards (though you have to assign buttons on your keyboard to left and right click which some see as an advantage). I'd kind of like a Nano model with just 2 buttons and a scroll wheel though. Ploopy may not be for everyone but I'm glad they're around and pushing repairable, FOSS input.

Pointer Instrument by Lunar Artefacts - https://lunarartefacts.com/collections/pointer-instruments - pretty much the polar opposite of Ploopy, this is an ultra high end luxury mouse made from finest leather and brass or aluminum, but its also repairable and modular with swappable switches, mouse wheel, and more.. Expensive, its shaped like the Razer Boomslang which is somewhat unique , and has wired and wireless support. Outside of its luxury construction the thing that took my eye the most is that besides the somewhat meh "accessory grip" currently available check out the "nudus blanc" or "umbra noir" models and the video will show their upgraded gaming grip which adds several buttons and vertical scroll wheels to both sides along with thumb rests; alas, this doesn't seem to be able to be purchased as of yet. Still something worth keeping an eye on; I'd like to get confirmation if it works on all models.

Zaunkoenig - https://zaunkoenig.co/ - Purpose built in the extreme, this is an uncompromising German designed and manufacturered mouse that (previous models anyway; there are 2 new models in the works) are made exclusively to be the lightest and most powerful gaming mouse on the planet. The entire chassis is carbon fiber - real carbon fiber , the wheel is ceramic, and read the new blog post about going to an aerospace company to make the cable just a little lighter and more durable and you'll see what level of "overdesigned" we're talking about here. Its made for a fingertip grip and has 2 buttons plus a wheel with nothing else but that's the point. Not cheap either but if its useful or of interest, open/repairable and without compromise in its goals that is worth it to some.

Dygma "Mystery Device" - https://dygma.com/ - Not yet listed on the website but an open secret in the community, Dygma, known for their excellent FOSS/libre firmware+config software, modular, split ergonomic keyboards including the Raise (a split 60% with modified space bar and under row) and the upcoming Defy (a modified version o the Ergodox or more accurate ZSA Moonlander columnar/lortho layout with a massive 8 button thumb cluster, starting to ship next week now that the1st 100 are out in the wild), is working on an ergonomic "mouse". Nobody is sure exactly what form it will take, but hypothesis is that it will be one of the tilted ergonomic mice but with gaming-grade components, buttons, and modular features plus FOSS/libre firmware/software. They've done very well with their previous products and are very open with the community, so I'm eager to see when they finalize a design.
 
I've had dozens of mice since using it, but I still think the G9x is the best mouse ever made, for my hand anyways.
 
atarione said:
Could be worse you could be left handed (ask me how I know?... well because I'm left handed obviously)...

The number of Ambidextrous mice worth buy has shrunk seemingly.... I have 3x Steel Series Sensei mice of various ages~ and if something doesn't change I may be using these for the foreseeable future.

I prefer ambi designs because I switch hands when using the mouse depending on what I am working on... and I have a injury to my right ring finger which makes ergo designs uncomfortable when mousing right handed anyways.
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Yeah the lack of left handed options nowadays is kind of shocking.
 
Burticus said:
Yeah the lack of left handed options nowadays is kind of shocking.
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I mean considering how few left handed people there are, that is a large investment to hopefully capture a small piece of the market. It sucks and i know it isnt fair but from a business standpoint it doesnt make sense to produce one. Or if they do it would be priced accordingly and then it would not survive at that price point.

But ambi-mice makes sense to me at least but then you trade comfort.
 
Darunion said:
I mean considering how few left handed people there are, that is a large investment to hopefully capture a small piece of the market. It sucks and i know it isnt fair but from a business standpoint it doesnt make sense to produce one. Or if they do it would be priced accordingly and then it would not survive at that price point.

But ambi-mice makes sense to me at least but then you trade comfort.
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The simplest thing to do (though it still has a cost) is many ambidextrous shaped mouse and have 2-3 buttons n BOTH sides that users can either enable or replace with a cap. Those who are dextrous enough to make use of both sides can do that, but a left handed person wanting a conventional mousing experience could simply put the blank caps on the left side of the mouse and the functional button/switch caps moved over to the right side, and then just use software (ideally open source and with profiles onboard) to swap left and right click functionality. It shouldn't be too difficult really and not much more expensive than the general use. Let me look around a bit, maybe there's a project on my hands...
 
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