Just got a Samsung XL30 - 30" LED

Afterhourpower said:
What is good to know from this is that the NEC is not able to show a difference that is measured, It cannot tell the difference of 298 black and 300...this to me is a much larger concern than the angle you like view the screen.
Click to expand...

Which NEC did you test?
 
I am saying this from your observation that the screen you base your conclusions cannot show the difference between these to values. It should show an ever so slight difference.
 
Afterhourpower said:
I am saying this from your observation that the screen you base your conclusions cannot show the difference between these to values. It should show an ever so slight difference.
Click to expand...

You misunderstood me.
I have never talked about my monitor capabilities in this regard and it's not specified what values you are talking about.
The monitor has tons of settings and calibration options.
The ractangle and greenish spots throughout the background are visualized easily.
Testing of this kind is for a specific area of use that the monitor for sure covers. But this is out of my scope of practice and out of my interest as a regular user. Sorry.

I focus on naturally looking photo quality picture with no intrinsic defects (color shift on TN/*VA), realistic colors (no color gamut mismatch) - all supported with calibration to low dE value and proper measurements. This is what a reference universal monitor must be capable of in the area of picture quality.
 
No problem, I understand. So the monitor has no issues displaying the difference in value is good news.
I wonder what settings you used to calibrate?
If you had calibrated with settings close or same as mine posted earlier, I think it should expose the differnce of the values(If you open Photoshop and move the mouse over the rectangle area vs the rest of the background, the values will show in the Info window). seeing these differences is critical when you want to print the image.
 
Has anybody tested the input lag on the Samsung XL30? I have seen some categorical assumptions that it would have 40+ ms of lag just like other 30" S-PVAs, but I have not been able to find a single report of actual testing on the XL30 itself.
 
NO. Not tested the lag. I have been using it for video and photo, and have had no lag issues.
One thing that is a problem... Samsung has not made a driver for the calibration to work with Windows 7 and they have no intention of it. You would need to have a seperate drive with XP installed to calibrate the screen. luckily it is the screen that holds the calibration, so when you switch to the Win7 OS the calibration will stay in tacked. Weird, but Samsung doesn't sound like they want to have anything to do with the screen. I think HP purchased rights to it or something, as they have a display with very similar specs, the DreamColor.
 
Albovin, look over there! There's a guy with a PVA panel. Start mentioning PVA colorshift!!!!
 
The HP DreamColor LP2480zx looks like it's better than the Samsung XL30, ignoring the size and resolution difference. It's 250 cd/m^2 instead of 200, accepts 48 and 50 Hz input without frame rate conversion, and takes 30-bit color DisplayPort input. It also has more color space emulation modes to choose from. Also it's IPS instead of PVA — although it still has 2 frames of input lag, and the fact that it's IPS may mean it has an aggressive sparkle-inducing anti-glare coating.
 
Last edited:
I think Ablovin just has a hang up on this issue. he has the right not to like what his eyes tell him. Fortunately not everyone bases the choice in monitors soley on viewing angle.

What is odd and NOT accurate for Ablovin is the fact that his screen cannot tell the difference between 250 black piont vs 5 steps difference. He and I did a test some time ago...
His screen reads different black levels with no visible difference. That is a BIG NO-NO for pre-press and color redering ability. If you cannot tell the difference on screen, that file will expose on a CMYK press. God help you when the advertiser twists your hardballs for a screw up like that.

The smaller the increment and the ability for the screen to different or expose this is the screens calibration ability to show stepping at a finer level.
 
I actually just got a 55" LED LCD from Samsung myself. If the monitor is anything like the Un55B8500, you have quite the LCD. I'm interested to see how their LED monitors compare to their LED TVs. The 8500 is the best LCD and arguably TV on the market right now- I 100% like them more than any Pioneer Kuro Elite I have seen, and noticeably better than the Sony XBR8. Samsung is king of the LCD TV right now. Although NEC will still be king of the monitor market, the LEDs make a very noticeable positive difference (for TVs at least, would like to check out a LED LCD Monitor).
 
Samsung's TVs and monitors have little in common.
LED BL makes no difference for monitors other than wider color gamut.
Who benefits? Printing professionals and some photo artists.
Who suffers? Majority of regular users (oversaturated, unnatural colors).
AFAIK this unsuccessful model (full of flaws) is out of production.
 
Last edited:
albovin said:
Who suffers? Majority of regular users (oversaturated, unnatural colors).
Click to expand...
Funny that you should say this in a Samsung XL30 thread. The XL30 can emulate sRGB, so that complaint doesn't apply here.

I personally am fond of high-gamut displays because I'm color-deficient (an anomalous trichromat — protanomalous), and as a result the standard CIE color matching is invalid for my eyes. Photos on screen don't look exactly like the real thing anyway, and never will. So deviations from the standard gamut only change the way in which the colors I see are wrong. I actually like having oversaturated colors. It helps me tell them apart and also looks very pleasing to the eye. It also gives me greater flexibility in experimenting with color. (I'd actually love having a fourth primary, between blue and green.)
 
I know that it is LED lit, but is the display technology IPS or PVA? Have you measured the inut lag vs a CRT yet?

For 4k this monitor better be the ultimate. :D
 
MetaGenie said:
Funny that you should say this in a Samsung XL30 thread. The XL30 can emulate sRGB, so that complaint doesn't apply here.
Click to expand...


No WG monitor is equal to proper sRGB monitor.
"Emulation" means nothing. Many monitors (even much better monitors) "emulate" sRGB color space triangle but none of them display proper colors.
 
Albovin,
I noticed you gave quite a rave review about 1yr ago to the NEC 3090.
Now that you have had the XL30 for quite some time, how do you think it compares to the 3090 ?
I would also love to hear from others with experience of both.
 
No WG monitor is equal to proper sRGB monitor.
"Emulation" means nothing. Many monitors (even much better monitors) "emulate" sRGB color space triangle but none of them display proper colors.
Click to expand...
A well implemented color space emulation works fine (just like transformations a CMM can perform) - provided that the destination color space is covered preferably complete (over coverages are unproblematic). Here is an example (unmanaged - this means without transformation trough a CMM) of the color space emulation implemented in the calibration workflow of the CG243W. You will finally achieve better results than with most displays that don't have an extended colour gamut because there are no under coverages or other deviations in this case. When looking at the deltaE variances you would initially think of a simple profile validation (that should always lead to low variances if the display is "colorimetrical stable" and calibration/ profilation is not too long ago) or measurements with the help of a CMM - but it was actually against sRGB and unmanaged. Even a fixed sRGB mode can achieve very sufficient results* (end of page; the deviation concerning D65 is uncritical (but the RGB gain controls are available) - no home user has fixed colour matching conditions (but no user would use this display without a colorimeter, so there is no actual need for this fixed mode here)) although it can't adapt for changes in colorimetric characteristics of the display.

Best regards

Denis

*
The chromaticity diagram on the next page (11) is a bit misleading because HCFR doesn't execute a chromatic adaption for the reference values (or vice versa for the measured values) and it is of course not perceptual uniform
 
Last edited:
Sailor_Moon said:
A well implemented color space emulation works fine - provided that the destination color space is covered preferably complete (over coverages are unproblematic). Here is an example (unmanaged - this means without transformation trough a CMM) of the color space emulation implemented in the calibration workflow of the CG243W. You will finally achieve better results than with most displays that don't have an extended colour gamut because there are no under coverages or other deviations in this case. When looking at the deltaE variances you would initially think of a simple profile validation (that should always lead to low variances if the display is "colorimetrical stable" and calibration/ profilation is not too long ago) or measurements with the help of a CMM - but it was actually against sRGB and unmanaged. Even a fixed sRGB mode can achieve very sufficient results (end of page; the deviation concerning D65 is uncritical (but the RGB gain controls are available) - no home user has fixed colour matching conditions (but no user would use this display without a colorimeter, so there is no need for this fixed mode)) although it can't adapt for changes in colorimetric characteristics of the display.

Best regards

Denis
Click to expand...

No way.
We are talking about realistic colors, not about color space coverage and dE.
You are going to find out if a WG monitor is equal to a proper sRGB monitor?
Here you are. Three steps.
1. Measure color space.
2. Measure dE.
3. Put WG monitor next to reference sRGB monitor and compare visually.
If the step #3 is not done - your test is not complete.

I cannot sit next to you and see what you see.
But if you say:"I compared such-and-such WG monitor against a reference sRGB monitor. There is no visible trace of WG issues. 100% match" - I will trust you. No questions.

No comparison? No conclusion is accepted.
 
Here you are. Three steps.
1. Measure color space.
2. Measure dE.
3. Put WG monitor next to reference sRGB monitor and compare visually.
If the step #3 is not done - your test is not complete.
Click to expand...
All steps were performed. There was even no visible loss regarding tonal values or noticeable dithering (although also the CG243W uses a "FRC stage" at the end). I don't want to indicate that everyone should buy a WCG display like the CG if he only wants/ must work unmanaged in sRGB. That would be quite oversized (keep in mind the price tag). In such a case a good display without WCG and potent electronic like the NEC 2490 is the way to go.

Regarding the "dE scepticism". dE94 has proven in terms of visual cognition (and is not abstruse complicated like dE2000). It is a good representation of what can be anticipated especially when the distances are not too high. I have never had any bad surprises.

Best regards

Denis
 
Last edited:
Sailor_Moon said:
All steps were performed.
Click to expand...

Could you please point out that part of the review that says that a reference sRGB monitor was used for visual comparison, names that monitor and tells the result of the comparison?
Thank you.
 
Could you please point out that part of the review that says that a reference sRGB monitor was used for visual comparison, names that monitor and tells the result of the comparison?
Click to expand...
I don't think that this is necessary but I will answer the question for you. My "personal" non WCG display is a HP F2105. At the timeframe of the test an Eizo S1931 was available and in use too (all displays are calibrated to the same whitepoint so a comparison makes sense). I can't force you to believe me and I won't do this. I can only say that it behaved like a perfect "sRGB display" after color space emulation in unmanaged environments (in managed applications you will in most cases keep the native color space and let a CMM do the transformations).

Best regards

Denis
 
I remember HP f2105.
Long ago (when it was $530) I used it for PVA colorshift illustration.
http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/5374/hpf2105.jpg

Back to the review.
An old 19" PVA cannot be a reference monitor. Especially when you test serious screens.
I am sure prad.de can afford a proper reference monitor that will be used as such on a regular basis (obviously the NEC 2490WUXi or 2190UXi).
It's a must for pro reviews.
And it must be named in "Introduction" section.

Sounds promising anyway. Thank you.
 
albovin said:
No way.
We are talking about realistic colors, not about color space coverage and dE.
You are going to find out if a WG monitor is equal to a proper sRGB monitor?
Here you are. Three steps.
1. Measure color space.
2. Measure dE.
3. Put WG monitor next to reference sRGB monitor and compare visually.
If the step #3 is not done - your test is not complete.

I cannot sit next to you and see what you see.
But if you say:"I compared such-and-such WG monitor against a reference sRGB monitor. There is no visible trace of WG issues. 100% match" - I will trust you. No questions.

No comparison? No conclusion is accepted.
Click to expand...
Now I am amiss. How can two monitors with similar reproduced colour spaces and similarly low dE values reproduce a different image?

What am I missing?
 
How can two monitors with similar reproduced colour spaces and similarly low dE values reproduce a different image?
Click to expand...
The mentioned NEC has higher deviations - mostly because it doesn't cover sRGB absolute completely (but of course good enough so that you can work with it without limitations) and has some over coverages too (that are not relevant in a managed workflow - see for example how the deltaE of the red primary is minimized in the second link). This isn't a fault or great problem but the usual occurrence when you look at displays without WCG.

unmanaged to sRGB

Transformation through a CMM ("managed") with sRGB as source (last table/ graphic)

The very low deltaE values often mentioned in tests are in most cases taken from a profile validation after creating the display ICC-profile and show how good the display is colorimetrically represented through the profile (see the table/ graphic in the middle of the last link).

Best regards

Denis
 
Last edited:
setekh said:
Now I am amiss. How can two monitors with similar reproduced colour spaces and similarly low dE values reproduce a different image?

What am I missing?
Click to expand...

You are missing the key point: true standard gamut monitor vs "emulation" by WG monitor.
Color space triangle and dE are in theory and on paper.
Images are what you actually see.
Current 8-bit WG monitors are not suitable whatever "emulation" they promise.
WG mismatch explained and illustrated.

Theoretically 10-bit high quality equipment can solve this problem.
 
The only problem in such transformations is the possible loss of tonal values but the electronic of the "better screens" prevents this (we don't work with a 8-bit per channel limitation internally). Bottleneck is the panel itself (which is nevertheless often fed with only 8-bit per channel - this is, as I said, even true for the CG243W that can accept 10-bit per channel via DisplayPort) but a good dithering stage saves the "lossless processing" without introducing annoying artefacts. The new DELL 24" screen seems to show the other side of the coin but I think that a new fw release is supposed to lessen these effects here. BTW: In the TV-sector we have more real 10-bit panels and I expect more PC display panels in the "upper segment" to follow this "trend" in the very near future.

Color space triangle and dE are in theory and on paper.
Click to expand...
It is more than just a theoretical number. If the distance is not too high, dE94 reflects human perception very good (and if you get very high dE values the deviation will be a good step away from being acceptable in most situations anyway).

WG mismatch explained and illustrated.
Click to expand...
Of course you will get a quite "colourful" representation of sRGB contents when using a WCG display (we should mention that this is no standardised working color space so the differences between the "WCG" screens can be quite high) without transformation through a CMM or display internal processing. Deviation between color spaces are the reason why we need color management - apart from a concept like sRGB that forms some kind of least common denominator (with all its limitations especially in a professional environment).

Best regards

Denis
 
Last edited:
albovin said:
You are missing the key point: true standard gamut monitor vs "emulation" by WG monitor.
Color space triangle and dE are in theory and on paper.
Images are what you actually see.
Current 8-bit WG monitors are not suitable whatever "emulation" they promise.
WG mismatch explained and illustrated.

Theoretically 10-bit high quality equipment can solve this problem.
Click to expand...
OK, so the actual issue is that the colour space isn't really translated accurately for WG screens. What boggles me is - if that's true, how come dE values are so low?

Sailor_Moon said:
The only problem in such transformations is the possible loss of tonal values but the electronic of the "better screens" prevents this (we don't work with a 8-bit per channel limitation internally). Bottleneck is the panel itself (which is nevertheless often fed with only 8-bit per channel - this is, as I said, even true for the CG243W that can accept 10-bit per channel via DisplayPort) but a good dithering stage saves the "lossless processing" without introducing annoying artefacts. The new DELL 24" screen seems to show the other side of the coin but I think that a new fw release is supposed to lessen these effects here. BTW: In the TV-sector we have more real 10-bit panels and I expect more PC display panels in the "upper segment" to follow this "trend" in the very near future.

(...)
Click to expand...
So might this be the reason behind the discrepancy?
 
OK, so the actual issue is that the colour space isn't really translated accurately for WG screens
Click to expand...
If the primaries match the target you will get very sufficient results. Displays are quite linear. In a pure "8-bit workflow" you would of course loose tonal values by the transformation but these kind of displays we are discussing have, I pointed that out, an extensive electronic. With a 8-Bit panel there can be distracting dithering artefacts if this step isn't performed well (btw.: also the "better" non WCG displays implement a comparable electronic so that you can use the monitor controls or even perform a hardware calibration without loosing too many tonal values).

Best regards

Denis
 
Last edited:
I think that albovin's issue is that he doesn't like how sRGB is theoretically defined. He's used to a monitor that deviates from the exact standard, and he'd prefer to work in that deviant-sRGB color space than true sRGB as officially defined.

If there are a large number of "sRGB monitors" that have very similar gamut triangles to each other but are significantly different from the sRGB standard, then that could be a problem.
 
Go ahead and judge me by how long I've been on Hard|Forum, but you know I'm right. :)

So you have 6 monitors. How many of these do sRGB the way that you like? Does a calibrated CRT do sRGB the way you like?
 
Last edited:
MetaGenie said:
Go ahead and judge me by how long I've been on Hard|Forum, but you know I'm right. :)

So you have 6 monitors. How many of these do sRGB the way that you like? Does a calibrated CRT do sRGB the way you like?
Click to expand...

No; It is well documented in many other threads that albovin hates CRTs period. They are not in the space that he perfers to work in, so they are worthless. Which of course really means his experience is limited in this regard.

Actually it is good to see some new posters adding good info to this forum.

Thanks for your input

Dave
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top