Just got a Samsung XL30 - 30" LED

the QUALITY CONTROL image you provided is 296% black on the left where it says "CONT..." then it tops at 300% at the "...ROL".

I can see the slight shift on the edges of the word QUALITY as I drag it across the screen..and even that text is at 291% to 294 to the right.

not sure if these are to illustrate or to guide, as the image itself is skewed

Ah! As I've said, professionals like numbers!

No, this test is very simple. This is a part of a test pattern and it has gradient.
You can see more or less of this word depending on calibration (I assume your gamma is too low now).
The point is that this word appears and disappears (partially or completely) when you look from front/side.
 
Regular users dont take the time to inspect an image. Image intense users that are inspecting an image will over come a slight shift like this within the first minute of inspecting the layout as it is habit to look at the screen at different angles regardless of the screen..it is habit from glare, from the image content itself, from resizing, etc. But for the person who knows that this should be equal here and ther, and is using the monitor to reflect what he or she knows, will be disapointed knowing it is not so...where as the Pixel Peeper with peep regardless of what he or she sees, knows, as this person is more like the QC person and will exhaust the view and even then print a contract proof and then sit on the thought of that image as LONG as he /she can sipping a coffee over every line, over ever expression, over the colors, and the cropping etc...before that file gets fedexed or ftped across some place for the book or magazine to print it. And to see your own print in a top magazine ...to see it the way you intended puts a smile on the face over and over..specially with quality press and paper...large spreads.
 
not sure, but even the the letter L only 1 value vs the background, I see the difference..very slight, but visible.
 
so to sum up our usage difference... the monitor for me is a tool, for others it is something to view as a spectator, something that gives pleasure while viewing, not an interactor.
 
I opened the "QUALITY CONTROL" image on my XL30. I moved the window around the screen and I could see that "Q" has a little more or less contrast with the background as the window moves from center to edge.

Other letters may have varied some, but I think I could see the difference with the letter "Q" more.

Albovin,

I think it is important to you that everyone knows that the XL30 panel has some color shift. I will take your word for the fact that what I see is "color shift". I will back you up if anyone disagrees with you.

On the other hand, I can say with complete confidence that the amount of "color shift" present on my monitor makes absolutely no difference in the real world. The effect is so small in actual use that it completely dwarfed by all other influences.

My room is not evenly lit for example; I get a sublet difference in reflection off my screen due to the uneven light in my room. I do not have exactly the same vision in each eye.

The bottom line is the "color shift" effect is so small I have to wonder why it is so important to you.
 
Sedluk...I think it is important what Ablovin points out, but as you said it is something not so important in use, but to be aware of when using.

My room is usually completely dark, I thought of not using the hood, but I have 3 other monitors just next to this XL30, so I actually like the hood, and the way it lets you focus on the screen blocking stray light.

ONE THING IMPORTANT...the file ablovin provides is to exagerate the exisiting "color shift" The shift of color I did not experience, but as I said the shift from a darker to a lighter "dmax" is evident, and backs up what aablovin is claiming...BUT the file he provides is pushing the visual to extreme.

When did you get you XL30 and how do you like it? I do have a complaint about the calibration, as I seem to get a slight pink hue in some areas of the screen after I calibrated with the NCE2. What mode do you run it in, and what reason did you purchase your XL30 for?

Cheers!
 
The bottom line is the "color shift" effect is so small I have to wonder why it is so important to you.

This is not important for me because my monitor has no color shift.
It's important for education purposes.
Inexperienced readers may be mislead by the myth about "PVA without color shift".
Whatever the brand is, whatever backlight is - PVA panels are cooked in the same Samsung kitchen according to the same recipe.
There is no a single reason for the Samsung XL30 to have less color shift than the Samsung 305T, the Eizo CGxxx, the Gateway XHD3000 or the Dell 2408 (The Dell 2408 review with detailed description of this issue).

Why don't you see it? I don't know. As the Dell 2408 review says, color shift can be less visible on certain images.
Of course, a reference monitor next to a colorshifty patient reveals the difference immediately.
After all, some people say that color shift on TN is not an issue either.

Color shift on XL30 documented by it's owner and posted.
Color shift on Eizo CG documented by it's owner too:

eizocg241wcolorshifthq1.jpg


I had a plan of taking the XL24 or the Eizo CG24 for a proper test next to the NEC 2490. But having received feedback from XL and CG owners, I abandoned this plan.
There is nothing new to look at. Nothing to add to what has been done already. Same PVA with more bells and whistles. Several extra $1000 do not help.

There are fundamental differences between LCD panels.
That is a technological, or industrial, or whatever FACT.

With all my respect to you, your or my individual perception of this issue change nothing in what it really is.
 
.......... AFAIK professionals work with numbers.
We, regular users, we don't work with numbers. We just enjoy what we can see. That's why so many people dislike colorshift.
If you enjoy looking at you killer turtles time after time, then you definitely should get a monitor that displays that specific picture best.

Heh, heh, I see alsbovin strikes heavily on all knowledgeable :)
Are you confirming that you are unknowledgeable ?
I was under the impression that you were also one of the knowledgeable because you did this terrific review of the HP LP2480zx.
Are albovin and Afterhourpower one and the same person, or are they partners in the quest against Samsung ?
All I read is the same lines over and over again.
And attempts to substantiate this by showing pictures of mostly irrelevant monitors. I.e. read : monitors with older versions of the panel technology, not the monitor in question, different manufacturers ( = difference in the driving electronics).
Who's afraid of Albovin's killer turtles anyway ?:p

This is not important for me because my monitor has no color shift.
It's important for education purposes.
More like a holy war against *VA panels.
Inexperienced readers may be mislead by the myth about "PVA without color shift".
The real myth is that IPS has no color shift.
 
albovin,

It sounds like you have a big case of XL30 envy. In an effort to justify why you don't own one you come up with ridiculous examples of "color shift". Your example above is complete non-sense. Who in their right mind would ever operate an XL30 or any PVA monitor positioned like your example?

If you want a XL30 or 305T+ just go out and buy one and be done with it. If you don't want to spend the money then just get over it.


Afterhourpower,

I have my monitor in the Custom mode. I used my Eye-One Display 2 to calibrate it. My machine is running Vista 64 so my options are limited. I installed XP on a spare drive and ran the Samsung Calibration. I found the same thing, the white balance looked better to me with the Custom Mode and the Eye-One Display 2.

This review is interesting: http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/monitors/display/samsung-sm-xl24-xl30.html

In this review it states that the Samsung software does not correct the shape of the Gamma curve. I am not sure if this is correct. The Samsung software does allow you to input the Gamma value and the documentation suggests that is does correct the shape of the Gamma curve.

At some point I will find more time to experiment.
 
Perhaps in the samples provided,they are not calibrated screens? Maybe they are?....

Regardless I agree that a shift in BRIGHTNESS is evident and it exists. I can provide you photographs of the difference that my screen shows in the calibrated mode with a jpeg exif data of the files authentication, and you can see how little this sample of the XL30 displays this change in brightness you call color shift...I dont like the term color shift as it leads one to think that a color is shifting to a different color. This is not the case. The black point is dropped and that is it. If this colorshift term is understood by all and accepted, then I guess thats the name, but it maybe that other screens actually shift in COLOR, as this one does not. Maybe LED keeps this from happening in the colors?

I would like to hear back how Visualguy and Sedluk see this and in what screen mode.

I read the review you linked on the Dell 2407 or8? you provided and the diagram shows this. I will try it with a more color saturated image, as the image you provide of the turtle has very little color in the file.

I still think this color shift issue of PVA panel is not the basis for buying a monitor, BUT, it should be! And doing so should wipe out the market of inferiour panels in the pro range at least. It should be in the forefront of developers and manufacturers R&D to have this issue resolved before building a $4,500 monitor. I sometimes wonder...a CTO standing over the heads of the R&D guys asking..."well, can we get away with making it with this cheaper PVA panel instead of this H IPS version? And the guys say ..We can try,..and they just keep it hush and BAM...profit margin makes sense for the few of these they will sell...instead of them taking a huge undisputed leap and lead over the market by creating a new standard, they dawrf the potential with a PVA panel.... NOW, with that said, does the H IPS panel have any short comings of its own? maybe not able to make the color gamut, or the LED in conjunction, or something? I have no clue.

Regardless of all that..... for today, this XL30 maybe a regression in development on one end, with a counter progression on the other end...with alll the screens available today, the colorshift is not a big issue for the professional user...

As I have explained in some post that there are Pixel peepers that work with images day in day out for hours on end, and all we look for are ISSUES in an image..this is not even a small hurdle to pass in the first few seconds the image is present (In a weird way it actually helps you see the potential printing errors). This ofcourse only being the case as one uses the screen as a tool, as most professional image editors. Others look at the screen as spectators, and are interrupted by something that doesnt look quite right...not the case with Pro usage.

The rest of the list of +'s the XL30 brings to a daily pro user are together significant

Low heat, (as Visualguy mentioned)

longer overall life
color
no COLOR SHIFT over the life of the screen..hahah , no pub inteaded
It isknown that after 2 or 3 years, if you use the screen for your daily work, the ability to display the color accurately diminision as the lgiht ages, as does the brightness and this change creates inaccurate colors.
no flickering.

...all these, for most part are due to the LED.

SO if you are a Pro user that does still image editing, I still think this is the best available monitor.

Did Samsung screw up with providing a lesser panel...it looks like they could have picked a panel that is "superior" if that is the case and that the other panels would not degrade other factors.


BOTTOM LINE (If Ablovin, you are willing to see one) The slight shift is insignificant in the professional use of this screen) If you are a spectator, walk away from this screen. if you use it for work, BRACE this screen and smile when you see the print!
 
InToGraphics,

same line over and over again is right as Ablovin is a bit stubborn, and perhaps I am too, but we surely are not one in the same person, as I made the right choice for my usage and own the XL30.


I do have an issue with the screen though. Sedluk...I calibrated mine with the LEd i1 it came with. I still get a slight pinkishness in areas of my screen. This to me is an issue. I hope calibration can solve. When you say you used the the Eye1 Display2...meaning the spectro it came with, correct?
Also...what is custom mode? I dont have this. I hvae calibrated mode, AdobeRGB, SRGB, Emulation, and then a "non-mode" none of the presets selected. Is this Custom mode? can this "non-mode" be calibrated?
 
In an effort to justify why you don't own one you come up with ridiculous examples of "color shift". Your example above is complete non-sense. Who in their right mind would ever operate an XL30 or any PVA monitor positioned like your example?

If you want a XL30 or 305T+ just go out and buy one and be done with it. If you don't want to spend the money then just get over it.

Wow!
You make me laugh out loud!
Wow!
I thought you swam in deeper water.
I can buy this "river barge at a cost of two ocean liners" tomorrow, but I don't need it even for free.
I have much better monitor and don't need any improvement so far (and it's not available BTW).
Respect revoked!

Who in their right mind would ever operate an XL30 or any PVA monitor positioned like your example?
No words....
You still don't understand what is PVA.:eek:
Photos made by XL30 and Eizo CG owners show that PVA is so "ridiculous", that you have to look from a side to see the fully detailed picture while non-ridiculous monitors let you see the picture upfront as if you were in "your right mind".
And even from a side you see three different variations of the same turtle because they are observed at different angles (angle view color shift) so you never know which of them is correct.
Pictures provided for educational purposes. This is ABC of monitor technology.
Hopefully it's now clear for you.
 
All I read is the same lines over and over again.
And attempts to substantiate this by showing pictures of mostly irrelevant monitors. I.e. read : monitors with older versions of the panel technology, not the monitor in question, different manufacturers ( = difference in the driving electronics).

No.
Totally wrong.
I don't make attempts.
I do post real information: measurements, photos, video.
I am responsible for everything I post.
When we talk about XL30 - you get exactly XL30.
When we talk about PVA problem in general - you get illustrations of multiple PVA screens, including rare ones.
That said, your criticism looks helpless in this case. Sorry to see that.

More like a holy war against *VA panels.

Another trite remark.
What a blindness?

No war.
Just genuine friendly explanation of basics or treatment for aggressive ignorance - whatever applicable.

I myself have bought a nice PVA monitor recently - a gift for good people. They are happy with it. They don't care of color shift. They benefit from other qualities of this monitor.

Holy war against *VA is in your imagination only. Leave it for noobs.
 
I actually opened up some critical files that I had trouble with in the bpast for blacks, and they are all exposed for me to pinpoint now. You asked me if I could see the rectangle in the left lower corner, and the monitor was able to show it. the only SHIFT there is in this sample of the XL30 is the Pinkish hue I see very faint, but it bothers me. The shift from the angle...all it exposes is the Dynamic Range limit on the actual capture device the image was recorded with. I am really trying to understand why this is an issue, but the more I use the XL30 the less your point is meaniful, as even the left of my screen which technically in the Lagom (sorry to screw that name up..Ill look later)...that test site, it showed the Magenta to be slightest bit lighter on the left edge of my screen (perhaps the way the panel was installed or mounted???), regardless In any other situation I dont see it in my critical files. Now as far as wanting to know what you see on the screen if it is correct or not...I have access to Fuji and EFI prepress machines that are the industry standard to print what it should by using special papers special inks and importantly bypassing print drivers via RIP software that is CGI world known. I will make the print and then post my findings.
 
I actually opened up some critical files that I had trouble with in the bpast for blacks, and they are all exposed for me to pinpoint now. You asked me if I could see the rectangle in the left lower corner, and the monitor was able to show it.

I asked you about the rectangle to make sure it is NOT visible. This is how the artist balanced this photo to look like.

Your monitor is set properly when this rectangle is not visible.

Could you please tell me what brightness of black is on your monitor when the rectangle is so visible?
 
He balanced it according to the display he was using. That doesnt say anything.

Your monitor is set properly when this rectangle is not visible.

According to who and what reference point?

I would be happy to if you can tell me where i can find that info
 
Could you please tell me what brightness of black is on your monitor when the rectangle is so visible?

I would be happy to do that if you can tell me where I can read that info for you.
 
in case you missed the other post...

Ablovin,

I think this image reveals what you SHOULD be seeing on your screen vs what your NEC is not capable of showing on your screen...

You see the green area? This area has a slightly deeper black value then the NON green area, so when you see this on the screen, you SHOULD be able to tell ...ever so slightly.



http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/QNGYHBPZMRGah8uyHlCZzQ
 
although I think this is something you can adjust....hoping that is in very small increments to not blow out the rest
 
I think this image reveals what you SHOULD be seeing on your screen vs what your NEC is not capable of showing on your screen...

As I said this is the author of the picture who says what should be seen. I can set my monitor to see the whole trash of the background if necessary. But I see no point in that.
This picture is used for *VA color shift demonstration only.
The rectangle is a good feature to limit "brave" users when they greyout the picture to see "all details".

I will look for the link to the larger file though.
 
I would be happy to do that if you can tell me where I can read that info for you.

You are frightening me!
Please use XL30 color management equipmet (colorimeter, software), open appropriate option, press something and see the reading.
This is how it should work.
XL30 doesn't have this possibility?
May be you can open the latest calibration report that includes the black value? (of course, if you did not touch anything after calibration).

I ask about black value because I am trying to guess why the picture looks greyed out. May be something is wrong with gamma curve.
 
Afterhourpower,

The custom mode is the default mode, it is the mode that you referred to as "non-mode". Samsung calls it Custom mode. Custom mode is the only mode that allows you to manually adjust the brightness with the buttons.

Custom mode is the native mode of the monitor. It has the full color gamut that the monitor is capable. Samsung does not specify the Gamma or white balance temperature of the Custom mode. I suspect that it would be close to 2.2 and 6,500k, that would make sense. Reviews have suggested that Custom is a little warm and half tones a little dark.

I have an Eye-One Display 2 that I have used on other monitors. I have used it on my XL30 in Custom mode, that will create an ICC that will do three things. This is my understanding as follows.

1) It will correct the Gamma curve to 2.2

2) It will correct the White Balance to 6,500

3) It will measure the Color Gamut.

After running the Eye-One Display 2 software the monitor will look a little different, this is due to the corrected Gamma and White Balance. All applications will display things with the corrected Gamma and White Balance. This is because the corrections are handled in the Video card.

Many applications including Internet Explorer will just display things with the corrected Gamma and White Balance. They will use the full color gamut.

Some applications like Photoshop have additional software that looks at the color gamut in the ICC. I have my Photoshop color settings set to AdobeRGB. Now when you open a file that was taken with the AdobeRGB color space (my 1DsIII has this as the default), the image on the display will be color corrected. The image will look exactly like it is intended. This is because the XL30 has a color gamut that largely overlaps the AdobeRGB color space. If the monitor color space is smaller than AdobeRGB, Photoshop can show you which pixels will be outside the color space. The great thing about the XL30 is that few colors will be outside the AdobeRGB, maybe a few iridescent green pixels.

Now your printer may not be able to print the full AdobeRGB colorspace, but the Epson 7880 and Canon 6100 can get pretty close. And it sounds like your printers will not have a problem. It was the monitor technology that was lagging.

Like I said, I am using Vista 64 and the Samsung software does not support Vista 64. But the idea is that by running the Samsung software you can have the Gamma and White Balance corrected in the monitor instead of the Video card. This is what the Calibration mode is for, just Gamma and White Balance with the monitor still displaying the full color gamut.

Emulation mode is for correcting Gamma, White Balance and trimming the color gamut of the monitor down to a color space. I think I am making it a little complicated, that is because it is. You can use Emulation to trim the gamut down to the gamut of another monitor.

I hope you get the idea, you still will have an ICC with the new trimmed color gamut so that Photoshop can correct the images so that they display properly, or as best as they can if the color space is smaller and Photoshop will be able to show you which colors are outside the gamut. Some of the complications result from people using different color spaces. Just about everyone uses AdobeRGB, that is what we take our pictures using and so on.
 
Did you look at the file I posted?

The green area SHOULD show according to value numbers of the file. NOT how the file creator thought would be correct according to his monitor.

I hope this makes sense.

Sorry but, yes I will open the cal sw to get that info, as this screen is new to me, and I don't know if the CD is where all the explanaition of calibrating options are?

2 CD's, Natural Color and the Samsung Manual.

Thanks Sedluk,

Yes I get the idea. I was hoping to dail the LUT with the best case before resorting to ICC monitor tweaking.

I will try to use my standard Eyeone to do a sw IIC profile with the D65, 2.2 Gamma, and see if the pinkish cast goes away.


I too shoot in AdobeRGb, I too use the ICC and the spectro to calibrate the screen. I thought the Calibrated mode using the NCE2 with the specific spectro would be the most accurate as it does the adjusting to the LUT ?

I cant find any manuals or info on the Samsung CD explaining anything about the calibration modes and so forth...

I got the 2 cd's, NCE and Samsung manual which only shows the Intro Setup specs and troubleshoot.... and that thin booklet that just shows setup.

Am I missing anything from the box?
 
in the Samsung manual, it says to see the NCE cd for help, and I tried, but all it has is the sw link, then the only Help I see is the text that steps you throught the cal process. In the program folder, I see the help folder but with files that end in .chm ..hmmm

btw Sedluk...any issues with 64 bit? Vista?

I am running XP Pro 32, and with the file sizes, even with a solid state ramdrive as a scratch, I think the ram limit is sometimes or more often not cutting it.

I think I would do a staging system before I make the transition :)
 
I did it at 130


Brightness: target 130=127.409
Black: target minimun = .18
rgb: target 2.2 = 2.2

Red=.677
Green=.197
Blue=.146
white=.309
CT(color temp)=6698k

Delta E= 1.3 (when I used 200 as brightness this was 0.41)
 
I did it at 130


Brightness: target 130=127.409
Black: target minimun = .18
rgb: target 2.2 = 2.2

Red=.677
Green=.197
Blue=.146
white=.309
CT(color temp)=6698k

Delta E= 1.3 (when I used 200 as brightness this was 0.41)

I guess there is something wrong with gamma curves, as O. Artamonov says in his test.
Anyway, it's an isolated issue of this monitor and has no relationship with PVA colorshift on this display.
Good luck with your monitor!
 
.......... Regardless I agree that a shift in BRIGHTNESS is evident and it exists. I can provide you photographs of the difference that my screen shows in the calibrated mode with a jpeg exif data of the files authentication, and you can see how little this sample of the XL30 displays this change in brightness you call color shift...I dont like the term color shift as it leads one to think that a color is shifting to a different color. This is not the case. The black point is dropped and that is it. If this colorshift term is understood by all and accepted, then I guess thats the name, but it maybe that other screens actually shift in COLOR, as this one does not. Maybe LED keeps this from happening in the colors? ..........
Thanks for confirming this.
I mentioned the brightness issue a couple of pages earlier in this topic (Smack in the middle of this posting) : http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1033286874&postcount=95
EDIT: I even have colour shift quoted to enforce that it's not really colour shift.


I know that you and albovin are not one and the same person.:p
But it was the first thing that sprang to mind. when I saw your first posting and following the conversation.

albovin peace man. In the end we will have you convinced of the fact that it doesn't hurt your eyes to look at PVA panels. It won't give you a headache either.:p
 
Viewing the turtle in CS3 its it normal RGB untagged the rectagle SHOWS...as it SHOULD.

When viewing in a custom proof mode like SWOP prepress it gets blended, as it should since you are dealing with white and black emulation.




What is good to know from this is that the NEC is not able to show a difference that is measured, It cannot tell the difference of 298 black and 300...this to me is a much larger concern than the angle you like view the screen.

So all this time you have been making your point with a properly calibrated monitor I am sure, and by increasing the brightness level alone is going to wash out others...so after calibration it is safe to say as a standard...DONT TOUCH THE CONTROLS....and the Samsung smartly locks the calibration and you dont even have the option of brightness or contrast in the Calibration mode....

So how would you calibrate the NEC to show this rectangle...as you SHOULD be seeing it, without adjust the screen after a calibration?

and as far as this statement you sarcastically made InToGraphics...
BTW, with all those S-PVA Samsung panels selling into the professional market, we are bound to see some craptastic photography, digital art, advertising, etc. in the near future

We are seening crappier ads and imagery, but due to economy and rsiky choices and outsource not the XL30 :)
 
It's ironic.
I meant exactly the opposite. Place it in context and you'll see what I mean.;)

I'm not against XL30 it's in the #2 spot of my target list. I'm not against 3090 either, it's #1 on my target list.

EDIT:The deciding factor between those two is price. I can buy 2 x 3090 for the price of 1 x XL30.
 
ah yes I see they are moving towards them...hehe.

Well one thing for sure, if you do printing with any of your work, then dimming is very important for a few reasons.

You dont have to tweak the monitor, its easier on the eyes(I know this maybe different if you are in and out of the room with drastic light differences), it also doesnt force your tube to run at max, and your calibration at lower than max should be more flexible to acheive targets...etc. I work in a room that is only lit by 3 large screens which is enough light, and when I need to I turn on the viewing booth to see the print accuracy.
 
The life span alone will pay for itself on the XL30, LED's will outlast the 3090 x4

Within a few years your calibrations will be more and more shifted.
Brightness will go down.

The above I mention on most screens, I dont know how NEC does warranty backups for 5, so perhasp that is excluded in the coverage, or the NEC screen doesnt have ANY effects over time..?

Led doesnt do that.

The lowest price I have seen XL30 go for is $2790(from $4500, likely to stay put at $2.2k or $2500)...this includes the spectro from i1...unless they decide to change the panel out due to the discussions like this here, ..then they might drop/close them out as first gen.

The best thing I did was look at the 2 screens before deciding. Hard to get them side by side since most stores might store neither , or one or the other, but...that would be the best...with your own file/test.

you cant go wrong with either screen...

XL30 will outlast other lights and its 14b LUT is something to note

I hope to get a good 5 years(at least) out of this so by the time a big improvement has reached, it is already mainstream and not at the peak of price.


I think I have exhausted this thread and hence not reading eveything thurough as Ablovin does like repeating himself...hehe bless you and your drive!

For me when Ablovin pointed the characteristic of the PVA, I was like ..wow!...but it was more like showing someone a trick....I was over it in a few looks.
This beast is a beauty in every respect.
 
I use a mixture of 4 of these : SoLux Tech and SoLux Task.
Had to order through a drop shipping company because they only deliver to the USofA and Canada.

I would say that on average it's 50/50 press and digital targets for my work.
And you are correct about dimming. I would even go so far to say that it is always important.
 
yes...love those lights...I here great things about them....For that type (color corrected ambient room) of lighting, I actual use LED...hahaha, I guess I really do like the technology of things going forward. But my Creo lights are at 5500K temp and they run rather cool as these are the ones that put out some good lumens...I am waiting for the price to drop as the dimmables are over $40 each head, and I have 70 spots to replace in one open area. Thats almost $3k for lights! ouch

The Solux are pricey, but I think they make a good product. I use the view booth for any prints for color.

Other than that I have no lighting when I work.
 
Back
Top