John Carmack Says VR Devs Are "Coasting On Novelty"

[zamardii12]

There's no killer app and no compelling reason for most to buy. Almost nobody wants to spent $800+ and the hardware to support it just to play a handful of indie games.

I unfortunately agree with this. I bought into the Vive and built a whole new PC (in sig) just for VR, and the games have been shit. Some are great, but don't last long at all and/or offer no replay-ability. I've spent over $200 on VR games since Vive launched and i've spent less than 2 hours in any one of them and that was not all at once. My bet has been on PSVR since they were announced. Bringing VR to over 40 million potential customers who already own PS4s and offering the best experience the hardware can provide with the developer support Sony has will be the deciding factor for VR. The only game on the horizon I am looking forward to on Vive is Fallout 4 VR, but nobody knows when that is coming. PSVR on the other hand has a lot of good looking games coming out for it like Far Point, Robinson The Journey, and others. I am getting my PSVR in the mail today, but I honestly and concerned that with the less-than-optimal tracking with the Move controllers that i'll quickly dislike it and not play it just like I haven't touched my Vive for months (but for a different reason (no games)).

 

[zamardii12]

I've even started to question John's engineering credibility, what with the new Doom being the first iD game in over a decade that ran smoothly without strange hiccups or microstutter, and he wasn't involved.

Just saying...

ID Tech 6 is built upon the ID Tech 5 engine which Carmack designed so he was involved in a way. In fact, ID Tech 5 was originally used to build Doom (2016). And, idk what you're talking about Microstutter or hiccups. Rage ran fine, but was limited due to texture pop-in of the early engine design. You forget that id has only made 3 games over the last 12 years; Doom 3 in 2004, Rage in 2011, and Doom in 2016. Quake Live and Doom 3 BFG Edition don't count since they're ported titles. So idk what you played out of those 3 games that gave you hiccups or microstutter, but i've never heard of either of those games having those issues.

I think you are just talking out of your ass just to be selectively critical for no reason.

GamesBeat: Was John Carmack any part of this engine, or any more than previous engines?

Hines: Truthfully, yes. John was at id so long that his work is in there. But a lot of this was born when he left. The tech team reevaluated—what are we building on? What are we using? Does this help us making the best games faster? Does it give our developers tools? Are we in the business of making technology or making games? A lot of what’s in id Tech 6 is a shift toward an engine that allows for more flexibility, with an eye toward the games.


Source: Bethesda wins the attention war by blasting marketing rules for Doom, Fallout 4

 

[SineDave]

ID Tech 6 is built upon the ID Tech 5 engine which Carmack designed so he was involved in a way. In fact, ID Tech 5 was originally used to build Doom (2016). And, idk what you're talking about Microstutter or hiccups. Rage ran fine, but was limited due to texture pop-in of the early engine design. You forget that id has only made 3 games over the last 12 years; Doom 3 in 2004, Rage in 2011, and Doom in 2016. Quake Live and Doom 3 BFG Edition don't count since they're ported titles. So idk what you played out of those 3 games that gave you hiccups or microstutter, but i've never heard of either of those games having those issues.

I think you are just talking out of your ass just to be selectively critical for no reason.

GamesBeat: Was John Carmack any part of this engine, or any more than previous engines?

Hines: Truthfully, yes. John was at id so long that his work is in there. But a lot of this was born when he left. The tech team reevaluated—what are we building on? What are we using? Does this help us making the best games faster? Does it give our developers tools? Are we in the business of making technology or making games? A lot of what’s in id Tech 6 is a shift toward an engine that allows for more flexibility, with an eye toward the games.


Source: Bethesda wins the attention war by blasting marketing rules for Doom, Fallout 4

You're entitled to your own opinion, but I think Rage is a great example of a poorly executed engine. Your own quote says it, they departed from his vision pretty significantly for Doom (2016) - and the results are great.

 

[Youn]

I dunno... seems to me he would've moved on to other pet projects by the time the Doom 4 design team really got their shit together... I doubt he would've stopped dynamic lighting and other bells/whistles from being added to the engine...

 

[Trepidati0n]

VR is 0.2% of the market according to Steam. No one is going to do anything other than gimmicks for that small percent. Lots of devs pass on Linux because it only has 0.9% of the market and the cost to port to Linux is much, much lower than making a new game with VR or adding VR to a current game.

No business, in their right mind, operates on "what is"...they operate on "what potential will most likely be". If operate on 0.2%..you will be, most probably, the lowest winner..but also the lowest loser. Those kinds of business either die or get swallowed up. Now...if VR has a potential reasonable peak of lets say 5%..that is a lot of $$$. Right now dev's are testing the waters to figure out what works/doesn't. The next round of games, should be, much more polished. Sony's VR kit is selling like mad for "new tech" which is pretty amazing if you think about it.

 

[sboucher]

No business, in their right mind, operates on "what is"...they operate on "what potential will most likely be". If operate on 0.2%..you will be, most probably, the lowest winner..but also the lowest loser. Those kinds of business either die or get swallowed up. Now...if VR has a potential reasonable peak of lets say 5%..that is a lot of $$$. Right now dev's are testing the waters to figure out what works/doesn't. The next round of games, should be, much more polished. Sony's VR kit is selling like mad for "new tech" which is pretty amazing if you think about it.

Agreed, a lot of what the devs have been creating tech demos for weren't just for wow effects, it's been experimental stuff for comfort / locomotion. That's been a huge issue thus far. Now that they are figuring out what works (cockpit, 3rd person, teleportation, room scale, etc), they can start working on full fledged titles. Problem is, true AAA development takes a very long time. All this discussion regarding Doom 2016 for example, don't forget they announced they were working on it way back in 2008. VR wasn't yet even a twinkle in your moma's eye back then. Based on that it's really no surprise the the current top VR AAA titles are ones that were originally monitor type experiences ported to VR, and not surprisingly, Cockpit experiences like Elite Dangerous, Project Cars, Dirt. With existing input solutions (Racing wheel / Hotas).

I too am exited about Sony's entrance to the VR market. Not because I plan to buy it, I don't. But because of increased development.

 

[noko]

My question is what is being developed hardware wise - How long before the Vive and Rift are replaced with something better? Other HMD's coming out besides PSVR? I would hate to spend $800+games etc. to have it utterly obsolete 6 months later and gathering dust in a corner with newer games made for the next iteration of VR.

 

[pj-]

My question is what is being developed hardware wise - How long before the Vive and Rift are replaced with something better? Other HMD's coming out besides PSVR? I would hate to spend $800+games etc. to have it utterly obsolete 6 months later and gathering dust in a corner with newer games made for the next iteration of VR.

From your posts in this forum I don't think there's much chance of you spending anything on VR.

Early adopters who aren't idiots know that progress will be made and prices will fall. Do you think anyone who spent $40k on the first 480p plasma tv felt ripped off when a few years later they could get a better one for $8k? I bought a 980ti last year and wasn't surprised when the 1070 came out with the same performance for hundreds less. I bought my pascal titan x knowing full well that it would definitely be obsoleted by a $650 product within a year, and probably be obsoleted by an $800 product within 6 months.

I've had 6 months of fun being one of the first people to have roomscale VR, and I will gladly buy any upgrade or accessory that enhances that experience.

All that said, I don't think a full new HMD is likely any time soon. There may be minor revisions for ergonomics and weight, but I think Vive 2 and Rift 2 will have a larger FOV, way higher res panels, and eye tracking. I would be surprised if either company released a significantly new headset before 2018. Regardless, nobody is going to make games only for a new iteration of a headset. VR games in 2020 will still work on the current Rift and Vive, just like normal games will work on my 2015 monitor.

 

[noko]

From your posts in this forum I don't think there's much chance of you spending anything on VR.

Early adopters who aren't idiots know that progress will be made and prices will fall. Do you think anyone who spent $40k on the first 480p plasma tv felt ripped off when a few years later they could get a better one for $8k? I bought a 980ti last year and wasn't surprised when the 1070 came out with the same performance for hundreds less. I bought my pascal titan x knowing full well that it would definitely be obsoleted by a $650 product within a year, and probably be obsoleted by an $800 product within 6 months.

I've had 6 months of fun being one of the first people to have roomscale VR, and I will gladly buy any upgrade or accessory that enhances that experience.

All that said, I don't think a full new HMD is likely any time soon. There may be minor revisions for ergonomics and weight, but I think Vive 2 and Rift 2 will have a larger FOV, way higher res panels, and eye tracking. I would be surprised if either company released a significantly new headset before 2018. Regardless, nobody is going to make games only for a new iteration of a headset. VR games in 2020 will still work on the current Rift and Vive, just like normal games will work on my 2015 monitor.

lol, well think as you will. Been looking on Ebay and a number of Vives are on sell. Folks are dumping them - anyways looks like $600 will get you a slightly used Vive. I may go that route and throw them away after they get obsolete in 6 months

 

[sboucher]

lol, well think as you will. Been looking on Ebay and a number of Vives are on sell. Folks are dumping them - anyways looks like $600 will get you a slightly used Vive. I may go that route and throw them away after they get obsolete in 6 months

I'm sure you'll enjoy it. For me personally, even despite the minimal amount of AAA content, VR has spoiled me. I'm just simply not interested in playing the same old regurgitated crap on a monitor. It's probably because I'm starting to get old. But once I played Elite Dangerous in VR, I can't go back to a monitor. Same thing with racing sims, Once I've experienced sitting inside the actual car - why would I want to play it on a monitor? Anything but VR to me at this point just feels like a major step back. I'm craving a really good RPG in VR though, something that really pushes the VR experience forward. Hope it comes soon. Might just get Vorpx and revisit skyrim though lol.

Also, starting to really get my VR legs. Moving with an analog stick forward and back doesn't bother me, just need to stay away from turning with it, that really turns my stomach.

 

[TheSmJ]

There are a lot of great games that are exclusive to the Oculus store that I would consider very, very close to the AAA level. Damaged Core is probably one of the best VR games that I've ever played. The campaign is a little short at around 5 hours of play time, but since its full retail price is $30 I think it's more than fair. The "gunface" method of aiming isn't my favorite, however that could easily be fixed once Touch is released.

Anshar Wars 2 is another great game. It was originally released for the GearVR so the graphics are what I'd consider to be Gamecube-era. But if you like StarFox type space shooters that you can just pick up and play with a 10-second rundown of the controls you'll love this game. The developers have added multiplayer since its inital release so now it has a ton of replay value. You'll also get a free copy of the game for the Rift if you buy it for GearVR, and vice-versa.

 

[sboucher]

There are a lot of great games that are exclusive to the Oculus store that I would consider very, very close to the AAA level. Damaged Core is probably one of the best VR games that I've ever played. The campaign is a little short at around 5 hours of play time, but since its full retail price is $30 I think it's more than fair. The "gunface" method of aiming isn't my favorite, however that could easily be fixed once Touch is released.

Anshar Wars 2 is another great game. It was originally released for the GearVR so the graphics are what I'd consider to be Gamecube-era. But if you like StarFox type space shooters that you can just pick up and play with a 10-second rundown of the controls you'll love this game. The developers have added multiplayer since its inital release so now it has a ton of replay value. You'll also get a free copy of the game for the Rift if you buy it for GearVR, and vice-versa.

While I will agree that both are very good VR games, they are very very far from AAA status IMO, maybe AA at best. Fair price, sure. But that has nothing to do with it.

 

[TheSmJ]

While I will agree that both are very good VR games, they are very very far from AAA status IMO, maybe AA at best. Fair price, sure. But that has nothing to do with it.

True. They aren't true AAA games. But the game play and development quality is higher than the vast majority of VR games. If anything it's a testament to Oculus' "timed elusive" strategy.

 

[sboucher]

If anything it's a testament to Oculus' "timed elusive" strategy.

timed elusive, hehe that's actually kinda funny.. Because it's accurate.

I give Oculus credit for the amount of money they are pouring into the development community. It seems to me that their timed exclusives are for titles they have directly funded, which would not otherwise have come to be. For that reason, I have no problem with it. There are plenty of timed exclusives for the PSVR as well. I would very much prefer if there were not any timed exclusives, but that is just not realistic. I do hope however, that Oculus at some point, officially supports HMD's other than their own on their store.

 

[Dayaks]

timed elusive, hehe that's actually kinda funny.. Because it's accurate.

I give Oculus credit for the amount of money they are pouring into the development community. It seems to me that their timed exclusives are for titles they have directly funded, which would not otherwise have come to be. For that reason, I have no problem with it. There are plenty of timed exclusives for the PSVR as well. I would very much prefer if there were not any timed exclusives, but that is just not realistic. I do hope however, that Oculus at some point, officially supports HMD's other than their own on their store.

HTC has a $100M initiative where they fund startup companies to create all sorts of stuff from software to hardware.

 

[sboucher]

HTC has a $100M initiative where they fund startup companies to create all sorts of stuff from software to hardware.

Good, the more the merrier. I want moar AAA content!