CommanderFrank
Cat Can't Scratch It
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If you are an IT specialist and still making about the same as you did in 2008, you are not alone. Even with the economy rebounding, IT salaries are remaining static.
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IT Salaries Remain Flat
- Thread starter CommanderFrank
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harmattan
Supreme [H]ardness
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Sounds about right. Been holding steady (literally not a dime more or less) for 3 years here. At the same time price my rent, food and other living expenses have increased about 15%, and my work week has slowly edged up from 50-60hrs avg. to 70-80hrs. I think I fall into the norm in that I'm paying more for the same living expenses and working harder for the same amount of money.
I have a feeling that optimistic feeling noted in the article's survey is an echo of people coming out of year-end reviews who are drinking management's cool aid. In general, there's no where to go but down from here for 1st world workers if this collescense of wealth at the top and offshoring trend continues.
I have a feeling that optimistic feeling noted in the article's survey is an echo of people coming out of year-end reviews who are drinking management's cool aid. In general, there's no where to go but down from here for 1st world workers if this collescense of wealth at the top and offshoring trend continues.
there is a difference between real IT and fake me out call center/ helpdesk
don't get a twisted
someone I know call himself a helpdesk administrator
you are not administrator of anything if you work on the helpdesk/ call center
and tell people to turn off computer and turn it back on 99% of the time as your solution
don't get a twisted
someone I know call himself a helpdesk administrator
you are not administrator of anything if you work on the helpdesk/ call center
and tell people to turn off computer and turn it back on 99% of the time as your solution
I left a job last year for a 20K raise and a lot less hours. Was working 70-80 as a norm, with sometimes 100+ hours.
The thing is though, I was lucky. Many of my friends are being undercut left and right with the down economy.
Hell, I've seen system analyst jobs at 18$ an hour. (are you freaking kidding me?)
IT is a bad field for the new people. They will be seriously underpaid and overworked.
Its bad enough that people with 10+ years in the field are looking to leave. Companies can go to hell for the abuse they lay on IT.
Go into engineering instead. Make way more money and work way less hours.
The thing is though, I was lucky. Many of my friends are being undercut left and right with the down economy.
Hell, I've seen system analyst jobs at 18$ an hour. (are you freaking kidding me?)
IT is a bad field for the new people. They will be seriously underpaid and overworked.
Its bad enough that people with 10+ years in the field are looking to leave. Companies can go to hell for the abuse they lay on IT.
Go into engineering instead. Make way more money and work way less hours.
InorganicMatter
[H]F Junkie
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This just in: high supply (thanks to outsourcing) + low demand = very low salaries.
I'm one of the lucky ones who live in an area with more jobs than IT people, but living by DC, you'd kind of expect that. The amount of contractors being flown over from India to fill positions is astounding.
In the datacenter I work in, about 40% of the employees are either current contractors or contract to hires from India. Nothing against it, but just shows you what some companies have to do in this area to fill positions because the talent is usually siphoned off into the Fed or Fed contractors.
In the datacenter I work in, about 40% of the employees are either current contractors or contract to hires from India. Nothing against it, but just shows you what some companies have to do in this area to fill positions because the talent is usually siphoned off into the Fed or Fed contractors.
I make ~40k doing helpdesk. Resetting Active Directory passwords for dipshits all day. Our company has had a raise freeze in effect the whole 3 years ive been here. I'm really not happy with my job but it's paying the bills for now. Although as most have mentioned those bills keep going up. It's becoming harder and harder to stay on top of them.
What do you mean exactly by engineering?
high incompetent supply+ high demand for incompetent supply=low salaries for most
or high salaries and insane hours for the few really capable
lots of hours fixing stuff any newb should know by the on-shore escalation teams they keep have to create after they release the onshore staff since the overseas staff have certifications rather than real experience and can't support anything but cookie cutter deployments
i still don't get how
15 hours of down time and 15 hours of cheaper labor is cheaper than 1 hour of down time and 1 hour or truly capable support. Especially if the down time is for an American knowledge worker getting overseas support. Blows my mind and I see it everyday...
I don't really worry about the outsourcing. When you're good enough, it just isn't a big factor. There just aren't that many expert level certified techs such as CCIE's over in India. The problem is, you have to know just about everything to get a good paying job, Exchange/Sendmail, LDAP/Active Directory, Bind DNS, DHCP/WINS, Linux/Unix/Windows, Firewalls/IPS/IDS, advanced Switching/Routing, Controller based WLAN's, VMware/Hyper-V, SQL/PostgreSQL/MySQL, SAN/NAS, UPS power management, Cacti network monitoring, Phone systems (Cisco/Nortel/Avaya), and the list goes on. Get a Top Secret clearance and easily add $20k a year for a banking or federal job.
I guess your success may vary, but my theory of being an expert in every aspect of network administration is working out quite well. All of the ITT Tech drones are either being outsourced or being included with the layoffs.
I guess your success may vary, but my theory of being an expert in every aspect of network administration is working out quite well. All of the ITT Tech drones are either being outsourced or being included with the layoffs.
Easy. Many people have such poor foresight that in order to save a dollar now they will set themselves up to lose thousands later.
As a IT grad who has yet to get a job after 100+ applications... I quit.
In my honest, pretty informed opinion, I think there was a huge surge in IT newbs (coming out of college like me) since the beginning of the 2000s. There was all these schools and places saying "A job in IT will net you $40,000+ a year right out of college and there is a huge demand, and blahblahblah" --- I am one of the suckers who went to school for it, and I did VERY well in school believe me.
Now there was a huge flood of people trying to get entry level jobs and the former IT people were moving up. Well, now since the market crashed pretty much... IT isn't paying well because of the economy and now everyone is either staying at their current job, or moving down and trying to keep from getting laid off. The VERY BOTTOM of the totem pole (guys coming out of college with no exp) are SHIT OUT OF LUCK getting ANY JOB as the experience IT guys are taking the entry level positions.
I have talked to hundreds of people about this, and have heard this more than once.
There is no way I am going to work in IT for less than $12 an hour, no fucking way with my education, skills especially, and lastly my school loans (over $400+ a month for a normal/lowly degree after grad.... I cant make peanuts as it'd put me in huge debt so its either big $$ or fuck your low wages at this point)
In my honest, pretty informed opinion, I think there was a huge surge in IT newbs (coming out of college like me) since the beginning of the 2000s. There was all these schools and places saying "A job in IT will net you $40,000+ a year right out of college and there is a huge demand, and blahblahblah" --- I am one of the suckers who went to school for it, and I did VERY well in school believe me.
Now there was a huge flood of people trying to get entry level jobs and the former IT people were moving up. Well, now since the market crashed pretty much... IT isn't paying well because of the economy and now everyone is either staying at their current job, or moving down and trying to keep from getting laid off. The VERY BOTTOM of the totem pole (guys coming out of college with no exp) are SHIT OUT OF LUCK getting ANY JOB as the experience IT guys are taking the entry level positions.
I have talked to hundreds of people about this, and have heard this more than once.
There is no way I am going to work in IT for less than $12 an hour, no fucking way with my education, skills especially, and lastly my school loans (over $400+ a month for a normal/lowly degree after grad.... I cant make peanuts as it'd put me in huge debt so its either big $$ or fuck your low wages at this point)
Just another tip of the hat that proves my post above right....
It's almost pointless to get a degree in I.T at this point and time... speaking for FIRST HAND experience trying to get into a career in IT.
I'm still down 20% from what I was making in back in 2000 when the company I was working for shut down. 2000-2003 was a real tough job market for IT.
Just when I was finally working my way back up, I've been stuck in a pay freeze for the past 2 years.
Well, at least I have a job that pays the bills......
I remember many (many) years ago, when I worked the service department at a small computer shop. A customer brought in his computer for repair, and we told him it would take 2-3 days since we have to order a part. He started yelling that he was loosing $15,000 a day with out his computer. I wanted so much to tell him to just nuy a spare computer since it would pay for itself in a few hours.
I work in a computer repair shop doing anything and everything for......$11/hour, I was told I would get a raise every 6 months but so far I've only gotten $1 extra. And it's difficult because I've been putting in my resume all over the place and not heard a peep. So this is better than nothing and I'll keep it til something better comes along.
what was your major?
That's the way it has been for years. I graduated in 03' (B.S. in MIS), right after the big tech bubble burst, and never got so much as a call for an interview after 6 months and 50+ applications. I finally ended up getting an interview for an entry level position, and I offered to start for $20K a year, just so I could get my foot in the door. I was making more working at the pawn shop where I was working to put myself through college, but I knew I was going to have to take whatever I could get. These days I'm pulling down six figures, and I have places beating my door down to come work for them, because there is such a lack of experienced developers.
So, you may just have to swallow your pride, and take whatever you can get. I know you think your skills and education make you special and all, but I can promise you that for every guy like you, there are 10 more just like you, and they're all applying for the same jobs. I know a lot of really smart guys with IT degrees working at burger joints, because they gave up looking or felt like they deserved better.
Rampage1329
[H]ard|Gawd
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Not to sound like a dick, but from a business prospective. If you can't find a job that pays you more, why would anyone give you a raise?
96redformula
2[H]4U
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Well I can't complain. I'm making 50k working as an on-site technician for the government. Plus benifits, 3 weeks paid vacation and an annual pay raise. Looks like I got lucky
Not as lucky as me.
I stopped the whole IT/programming thing and went into teaching. So far it is working out well and I am enjoying teaching career and technology classes.
45k Annual (Starting)
Medical
Other Stipends
All holidays off
3 months in the summer
2 weeks off near Christmas
Spring break
I decided not to long ago that doing what you enjoy, and working less is much better than making more money. All the money in the world isn't much fun when you do not have any time to enjoy it.
I felt like I was hitting a dead end pursuing a career in the IT field. I was having the same problem as mentioned in the thread discussion. Everybody wanted all off the computer skills/experience in the world, but nobody wanted to pay more than 45k a year.
@96redformula
First I must say you do have yourself a pretty sweet deal.
Fun fact about me though,
I enjoy my job quite a lot, keeps me busy and provides me new challenges. and the 7-3, monday to friday schedule is just perfect for me. A a traffic-less commute also helps make the schedule pretty awesome.
But yeah the nice bit about working for the govt in the great north is that the benefits also include medical, dental and eye care. Sick days are paid. Various insurances are available. Holidays off and paid. And the 50k is starting. Assuming I don't go up in position, I will cap off at 63k. And this is entry level. As I said, I'm well off.
And being busy will make the wait for the delivery of the new car less painful T_T
First I must say you do have yourself a pretty sweet deal.
Fun fact about me though,
I enjoy my job quite a lot, keeps me busy and provides me new challenges. and the 7-3, monday to friday schedule is just perfect for me. A a traffic-less commute also helps make the schedule pretty awesome.
But yeah the nice bit about working for the govt in the great north is that the benefits also include medical, dental and eye care. Sick days are paid. Various insurances are available. Holidays off and paid. And the 50k is starting. Assuming I don't go up in position, I will cap off at 63k. And this is entry level. As I said, I'm well off.
And being busy will make the wait for the delivery of the new car less painful T_T
If you want a job in high end IT, you now need to get a Masters.. the paths of working up through experience have been shut down by outsourcing, and those who do have low lvl IT jobs are as dead-end as much else and commonly look to abuse IT workers, simply because they *can* ask that much, since they know others are there to take your place.
It does not help that society attaches a stigma to IT ppl being workaholics, and creating unrealistic expectations than the right IT guy can do the work of 3.
But the reason I mentioned the racist bit.. is because the top echelons of IT in the majority of places I've worked with are dominated by Indian workers. I got my MS in MIS and over 90% of my class was Indian, with another 5% of other foreign origin.
An MS in IT is a foot-in for those overseas, and companies that look to recruit their labor because they know #1: To keep immigrant status they need constant employement and thus have much less mobility #2: They will work for less #3: They are likely IT workers from India who worked on outsourced projects for big corporations like Oracle and IBM and then came here for higher pay.
When you see companies requiring MS degrees in IT, like banks, what it translates to is that they want a secure foreign workforce that will work for less and could be pushed harder, with little worry for mobility.
The sadder part? The Indian kids with me in the MS program took life significantly more seriously than our own people that I worked with in IT. Their skills however, were not above and severely lacking in a lot of cases. What was different was their approach; where they didn't seem to have addictions to distractions, actually liked learning, didn't have big egos, and were actually friendly, nice people with a lower level of selfishness than whats acceptable for one of us, an American.
What happens in the end is, after the individual has their permanent living papers, they begin to migrate to other companies for more pay for even higher positions. But the position they leave behind, is to be filled with another Indian. And the way they filter for it, is by require a Masters degree. It also filters out women and other minorities.
So, are Indian workers taking your higher end jobs that IT people are suppose to work up and graduate to so that lower positions open up? Yes.
Are they nicer to work with than us? Yes.
Are they more skilled? No.
Are they being exploited like us? Yes, in a different way.
Who is to blame? Corporate policy and their constant petitioning for more H1-B labor, and the corporate protections set up to allow them to hire in this way.
It does not help that society attaches a stigma to IT ppl being workaholics, and creating unrealistic expectations than the right IT guy can do the work of 3.
But the reason I mentioned the racist bit.. is because the top echelons of IT in the majority of places I've worked with are dominated by Indian workers. I got my MS in MIS and over 90% of my class was Indian, with another 5% of other foreign origin.
An MS in IT is a foot-in for those overseas, and companies that look to recruit their labor because they know #1: To keep immigrant status they need constant employement and thus have much less mobility #2: They will work for less #3: They are likely IT workers from India who worked on outsourced projects for big corporations like Oracle and IBM and then came here for higher pay.
When you see companies requiring MS degrees in IT, like banks, what it translates to is that they want a secure foreign workforce that will work for less and could be pushed harder, with little worry for mobility.
The sadder part? The Indian kids with me in the MS program took life significantly more seriously than our own people that I worked with in IT. Their skills however, were not above and severely lacking in a lot of cases. What was different was their approach; where they didn't seem to have addictions to distractions, actually liked learning, didn't have big egos, and were actually friendly, nice people with a lower level of selfishness than whats acceptable for one of us, an American.
What happens in the end is, after the individual has their permanent living papers, they begin to migrate to other companies for more pay for even higher positions. But the position they leave behind, is to be filled with another Indian. And the way they filter for it, is by require a Masters degree. It also filters out women and other minorities.
So, are Indian workers taking your higher end jobs that IT people are suppose to work up and graduate to so that lower positions open up? Yes.
Are they nicer to work with than us? Yes.
Are they more skilled? No.
Are they being exploited like us? Yes, in a different way.
Who is to blame? Corporate policy and their constant petitioning for more H1-B labor, and the corporate protections set up to allow them to hire in this way.
If you're good at what you do and you're willing to put the time and energy into learning your chosen profession well, there are jobs out there.
When I first started going to school, I applied and interviewed at every internship/job position I could find. It took quite awhile, but eventually I got in at an MSP in the town that I live in. I was making $10 an hour, nothing special, but all of my classmates were still working their shitty dead-end jobs so I wasn't going to complain too much.
Fast forward about 6 months, I graduated college with a 4.0 GPA, and was offered a full-time salaried position that ended up being almost a 75% wage increase from what I had been making before.
Bottom line, if you're willing to commit to succeeding, you will be able to find a job. It may not be the job you want right away. You may have to answer helpdesk calls for a couple years, but if you're any good, you'll be able to move up to where you want.
When I first started going to school, I applied and interviewed at every internship/job position I could find. It took quite awhile, but eventually I got in at an MSP in the town that I live in. I was making $10 an hour, nothing special, but all of my classmates were still working their shitty dead-end jobs so I wasn't going to complain too much.
Fast forward about 6 months, I graduated college with a 4.0 GPA, and was offered a full-time salaried position that ended up being almost a 75% wage increase from what I had been making before.
Bottom line, if you're willing to commit to succeeding, you will be able to find a job. It may not be the job you want right away. You may have to answer helpdesk calls for a couple years, but if you're any good, you'll be able to move up to where you want.
By the way, if you don't want to suffer through the IT grind with shit work and a low ceiling(followed by shittier management gigs), get the fuck out of an internal job. Getting in with a consulting company early on changed everything for me.
More career paths(even late in career), more money, better work, new location every few weeks, independence. Awesome.
More career paths(even late in career), more money, better work, new location every few weeks, independence. Awesome.
For most people in IT..its not so much about education. Yes you need to know the products and a willingness to learn processes but what I have seen is that folks who are problem solvers make it. Education or not. I've worked help desk & system admin jobs and am [24] a lead technical architect. Try getting your foot in the door somewhere..find a niche & strive for success!
Can you go into detail with the transition from entry level IT to consulting?
What about the the great walls of Corporate HRs /job description whom they nit-pick on your certs/education? It seems that there's always two sides of the story in IT.
I'm not in IT. However, it sounds like college is the barrier here. Under $12/hr is bearable for someone with a HS diploma.
You want to get enough hands on time with whatever server component you are most comfortable with(Windows is fine, you can branch off later in career). If you can get a little at work great. If not definitely setup a lab at home if you can, VMware Player is free, make use of it. Just get enough experience to be comfortable and to be able to research and solve problems on your own.
Spiff up your resume playing up your server experience, don't really need to say you are an expert, just that you can deploy and build and what not. Goal should be to get in with a smaller and local consulting firm, even if you are underpaid. They won't have the money to hire the high level people they should, so chances are you will be thrown at things above your skill level. But that's how you grow and take things to the next level(and leave for more money). When you are tasked with something, research it, figure out how to do it then do it. You need to be independent, aggressive and hugely self-motivated. Can't rely on others to teach you everything. Really, honestly, at this point you just need to be good enough.
That's pretty much what I did early on. And the second I wasn't getting work that I felt was challenging me I left for another position that did. You of course can take a slower route and work your way up to a senior role internally then make the switch. But consulting is a lot more fast paced with less room for error, not an easy transition for everyone once they are set in their ways.
Only at entry level. That sucks. My education hasn't been an issue since I got my foot in the door. Certs tend to mean more at a consulting gig, not because they are a measure of your ability, but companies have cert quotas to maintain vendor relationships. I personally have never seen someone's technical skill based off a cert (I've heard the horror stories though).
Hmmm. This is great news.
________________________
I've been looking for a job for about 5 months now and at the beginning wanted a face to face IT support kind of job. Now I've got one at a call centre and the really eye-opening thing was, that at the group interview, there were about 8 people - and I think about 5 had degrees ~ straight out of Unis.
I +1 that you need to have a shitload of qualifications for a job ~£25k/year as well as experience.
________________________
I've been looking for a job for about 5 months now and at the beginning wanted a face to face IT support kind of job. Now I've got one at a call centre and the really eye-opening thing was, that at the group interview, there were about 8 people - and I think about 5 had degrees ~ straight out of Unis.
I +1 that you need to have a shitload of qualifications for a job ~£25k/year as well as experience.