ISPs To Start Policing Copyright By July 12

InternationalHat said:
There's a lot of technical stuff in here and you sort of understand what's going on but you're missing a few things.

If the service works as I think it will based on the "six strikes" idea, it will be a web service where copyright owners submit claims of infringement with IP, source, time, and infringed property. The ISP will try to match submitted IPs with customers and if any are found, send out a letter.

What you're suggesting requires the ISP to monitor torrent trackers and try to link foreign VPN traffic up with local users. I think that's next to impossible. The VPN is outside of the ISP's network say in Germany. The ISP only sees 52 gb of miscellaneous traffic downloaded from a German server. For your scenario to occur, the VPN would have to use the same IP address to connect to outbound traffic as inbound for the ISP to link these together. And further, since it's a VPN, traffic would be all over the place for it. Connecting to a tracker and seeing connections from that IP is meaningless. There's no way to know what an individual user is doing on there.

They could block the VPN's IP address on suspected grounds, but that's about it. I think this is extremely unlikely as well because it could be blocking legitimate traffic.

The funny thing about this is if everyone figures out how they're reporting infringers once it's all automated, it will probably be possible for tracker owners to flood them with false positives by tampering with tracker data... like say including the IP addresses of people in the RIAA and/or the government.
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Yeah, my idea does need the participation/coordination, if not all, but atleast the major ISPs to be able to have enough tracking data. However, the article already states that the US ISPs intent to participate and would cover much of the US. That would take a big chunk of the pirates out of north america. I understand that VPN usually involves connecting to a foreign country so you can't actually track the entrypoint of those torrents if you're doing it from the US and the server was in Japan, but after the failure of SOPA, the US already has negotiations in the works to coordinate with ISPs from other countries (I forgot the name for it, anybody remember?). If the ISPs participation comes to pass and this works, they'll be pushing through with expanding this to other countries. Would the VPN server in Germany still be save if the ISP hosting it participated?

The false positives we run across on the network are mostly based on misleading pointers on the data packet. If they wanted to, a data packet with a source info that doesn't match the computer it's coming from would already raise some red flags. Some cross checking would filter out all but the most obscure false positives. Machines are a lot more thorough than humans if there was a standard way of storing traffic logs across the different ISPs. Everything on the internet can be tracked, it's just that getting that info from the ISP is like pulling teeth.



You don't have to know exactly what they're doing on a VPN, only follow how much traffic is going through it. If there are a dozen VPN clients connected to a VPN server, and the VPN server suddenly started downloading a large file, the bandwidth usage of one of the clients will jump, you then have the guy who's likely downloading it. Certainly not conclusive evidence, but enough reason to get a warrant issued. Pirated movie enters a VPN network, one of the clients bandwidth suddenly skyrocketed, aftera while, movie download stops, clients bandwidth usage goes down, another pirated movie enters the VPN network, same client becomes active again.

The only thing protecting from this actually happening is that the VPN server and client are usually on two different jurisdictions and traffic logs is just an optional side job. You already have issues with state borders as is. What the government is doing is to unify the ISPs and eliminate those 'borders'. If the server was on AT&T and the client was on comcast for example. The admin on comcast cannot access the AT&T logs without a court order. They would want those logs to be consistently recorded and openly shared with other ISPs. Same applies if the server was in Germany, if the ISP there comes in agreement with the US ISPs, they'll be able to map out the physical location and network traffic of every branch of a VPN network.
 
Speaking of SOPA. Wasn't this why SOPA was shot down in the first place? They're doing it anyway?
 
I can already picture a couple of funny scenarios to really mess up this plan pretty quickly and very easily.

The RIAA and MPAA is why I stopped listening to all mainstream music and just download legal mixtapes. I use to still buy everything I listened to twice, and just gave up on that after all of this, about 4 years ago. I also stopped watching movies in the theater and almost stopped watching movies all together because of this stuff, especially when I was sitting in a movie theater and the commercial said don't pirate this movie. I was thinking to myself, I paid for this movie, why do I need to be told this? I know a lot of people around me who did the same thing. These movements are helping no one, and are making industries lose more money.
 
travanx said:
I can already picture a couple of funny scenarios to really mess up this plan pretty quickly and very easily.

The RIAA and MPAA is why I stopped listening to all mainstream music and just download legal mixtapes. I use to still buy everything I listened to twice, and just gave up on that after all of this, about 4 years ago. I also stopped watching movies in the theater and almost stopped watching movies all together because of this stuff, especially when I was sitting in a movie theater and the commercial said don't pirate this movie. I was thinking to myself, I paid for this movie, why do I need to be told this? I know a lot of people around me who did the same thing. These movements are helping no one, and are making industries lose more money.
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Mainstream music sucked long before digital media was a reality. ;)
 
Jonowxeno said:
And if you haven't seen this : http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones
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MUAHAHAHHA! :D It's funny because it's true.

satsunada said:
Time to go to McDonald's and Starbucks with laptops en masse and get those 2 companies millions of notices :D

And ya, this is ridiculous. What this really smacks of is trying to force people off the internet so they'll go watch those stupid overpriced movies or go buy those overrated albums.
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And the public library, local community college library, Panera , Dunkin Donuts, the chinese take-out down the street, etc, etc, etc.

Sly said:
Speaking of SOPA. Wasn't this why SOPA was shot down in the first place? They're doing it anyway?
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Anyone with a remote understnding of our government realized it would come back sometime soon renamed or split into lesser actions that still equal the whole. This is probably step one of eight to equal SOPA and ACTA.

Come on...........it's all for your own good.
 
Now what becomes of the Safe Harbor provision of the DMCA? Does the ISPs loses them because they now "police" the network?
 
Is this a law, or was this privacy invading process created by the xxAA's on their own, who we know are well above the law and can do anything they want ?
 
I think this is designed to get the average pirate using one of the simpler "services." Movies are getting to DVD/Blu-Ray faster and faster, and the sneakernet will only get bigger and bigger. You will always have DVD/Blu-Ray ripping software and there will always be a way to circumvent DRM protections, so these corporate interests will never be able to stop the inevitable. Instead of embracing a free and open Internet, innovating around it and thinking of an "outside of the box" business model to profit off of this new content distribution mechanism, they've fought it tooth and nail and have suffered for it.

If a single service existed for all TV/Movie content and was freely available for $25/month (+cost of internet connection) and delivered over your internet connection to a set-top box or Web Browser, that would significantly reduce the urge for a lot of folks to pirate.

I think this really comes back down to a societal problem... because the companies peddling this stuff don't really want to make a profit...

They want to make a killing.... and their customers are the ones getting killed.
 
FUCK the riaa and mpaa !!!!! Fuck those scumbags! I hate those greedy bastards.

Maybe the movie industry would be more profitable if they actually put out GOOD movies, instead of releasing remake after shitty remake.

And the record industry is no better. Music coming out these days is a copy of a copy of a copy of SHIT.

I can't believe ISP's are going to do this ! Time to VPN ALL of my web traffic.
 
Pretty soon we'll have an US version of the great firewall of China. What should it be called? Probably something like "Cyber Statue of Oppression ", which zaps everything it sees that steps out of bound with the torch:D
 
Like my monthly ISP bill isn't already high enough! Imagine what this forced infrastructure will do. Even if the RIAA subsidizes the ISP's through discounts on content for their streaming services, the ISP will still pass the cost to the consumer. Since this will be passed into law, this means that the government is only getting bigger...when the coming economic and social collapse followed by widespread civil unrest occurs, then society will reset itself and want to go back to completely limited government and states having all the power over themselves like back around the turn of the century...why don't we do this now gradually instead of later to avoid the civil unrest that will come as people slowly feel like government and over-watching orgs such as the RIAA and their very own ISP is collapsing in on them? More freedom, not less. I always find it odd that the democratic ticket has always been about more freedom, but it's counter-intuitive when their ticket also stands for government growth which inevitably encroaches on our daily lives...isn't this a huge dichotomy or contradiction? How dare the white house get in bed with the RIAA after some basic lobbying!
 
michaelnyden said:
Like my monthly ISP bill isn't already high enough! Imagine what this forced infrastructure will do. Even if the RIAA subsidizes the ISP's through discounts on content for their streaming services, the ISP will still pass the cost to the consumer. Since this will be passed into law, this means that the government is only getting bigger...when the coming economic and social collapse followed by widespread civil unrest occurs, then society will reset itself and want to go back to completely limited government and states having all the power over themselves like back around the turn of the century...why don't we do this now gradually instead of later to avoid the civil unrest that will come as people slowly feel like government and over-watching orgs such as the RIAA and their very own ISP is collapsing in on them? More freedom, not less. I always find it odd that the democratic ticket has always been about more freedom, but it's counter-intuitive when their ticket also stands for government growth which inevitably encroaches on our daily lives...isn't this a huge dichotomy or contradiction? How dare the white house get in bed with the RIAA after some basic lobbying!
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I'd say it's much easier to thrive in politics by being crooked than not. Ever wonder why some bright/just mind don't enter politics? Then again that's just me...
 
Scroatdog said:
FUCK the riaa and mpaa !!!!! Fuck those scumbags! I hate those greedy bastards.

Maybe the movie industry would be more profitable if they actually put out GOOD movies, instead of releasing remake after shitty remake.

And the record industry is no better. Music coming out these days is a copy of a copy of a copy of SHIT.

I can't believe ISP's are going to do this ! Time to VPN ALL of my web traffic.
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Which was already mentioned to having no effect once the XXAA get their way in other countries.
 
This really all boils down to society finally having the means to share products such as movies and music cheaply that they realize is not worth anymore than other products/services. What the RIAA should do is get mad at the federal reserve for the inflation we have and at private industry for not increasing worker wages to keep up for the past decade...this has caused the consumer to not be able to afford their movies and music on a regular basis. Society as a whole is finally starting to realize that industry execs and movie stars don't deserve billions of dollars, they are just like you and I and deserve a modest salary per year for the work they put in. Of course the people at the top of the RIAA can't live on having one less house and one less boat than the fleet they are accustomed to having, they want to maintain their lifestyle no matter what in a world that has changed and is changing and instead of changing with it and adjusting their lifestyle like everyone else, they are fighting tooth and nail to keep the golden cloud of money that they have been riding on before the economic recession.
 
The RIAA is still smarting because Steve Jobs drank their milkshake. They've spent the last 12 years in a fetal position screaming for someone to put the genie back in the bottle. The MPAA has followed their lead.

I highly doubt this new consumer monitoring agreement with the ISP's is going to result in something super sophisticated. The vast majority of pirates are casual pirates. They're not using VPN's or making sure their data streams are SSL encrypted. The ISP's will focus on easy targets, and that alone has the potential to reign in quite a bit of piracy.

Then the cat and mouse game will continue as it always has .....
 
It'll be a free for all from now until 7/11/12. :D

And shame on the ISPs for succumbing to orgs like MPAA and RIAA. :mad;
 
MarkedOne said:
I don't see where is the problem if you Internet activity is legal.
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It's a problem because you're completely deprived of due process. The ISP basically acts as a proxy law enforcement agency. You can lose your service due to someone's paperwork screw up, then you have to prove you're innocent to get back the service that you've been paying for the whole time.

InternationalHat said:
It raises the cost of your service by forcing the ISP to police people.
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This as well.
 
My isp is run out of a run down warehouse in a old PA mining town. Currently if your flagged by a company for downloading a 'protected content' torrent your not even given 30 days.

They do not have the man power to police data.
 
Deep packet inspection in large enough scale to accomplish this is very cost-prohibitive. Most likely this will be selectively used as yet another stick against higher usage customers(assumed guilty) just like throttling and bandwidth caps. Also, ISP's sacrificing customer privacy for payout is not new, this is just another excuse to data mine and sell to the highest bidder.
At one point the internet was a library, or could be viewed as such, there was a necessity to try and uphold freedoms. For a long time now it's been a moderately regulated street market, some sections all the bulbs are broken out for a reason. The idea that money exchanges hands in this market, both in the well lit areas and the dark makes it no longer a library. It makes it a concern for capitalists. We are talking about gang wars for control and the asshats in the RIAA/MPAA/BigContent only want you to buy direct on their terms. They want this so much that they'll burn down every stall but their own. They will follow you home afterwards and shit on your doorstep, maybe even slash your tires...
 
If deep packet inspection is rolled out on all ISP's and they run it on their entire network, I would assume, collectively, everything might be a little slower--especially if they don't continually roll out better/faster routers or appliances to perform this on such a large scale as the demands or bandwidth increase and so does the population subscribing to them. So we will also have to thank RIAA and MPAA for slowing down the internet as well.
 
It seems like everyone ignored my previous post, but to me this just seems like a scare tactic and an ISP tactic to shut up the media companies. It sounds like they don't have any real power and none of the ISPs have said they will terminate service because of it (which seems obvious, because they don't want to lose paying customers). They can send notices, possibly throttle your service, or "suspend" service until the customer "promises" (what, like an "agree" button you click or something? How would this even be enforced?) to stop pirating before service is resumed.

It all sounds scary but in reality my guess is they can't/won't really do shit. They are already losing customers by the truckload for TV services, so alienating their internet users would just be a death sentence. Of course, this is in areas where you have options other than Comcast/whatever, which is not everywhere.
 
Chrisroman said:
lol... what?!

You actually named the logical fallacy before you made it. wtf
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I was explaining what the slippery slope would be, where did I make a fallacy? I'd like to be informed, instead of just notified.I accept constructive criticism as well.
 
seems like a sneaky way to have ISPs install systems that can track, and profile customers. It's a press release to politely tell everyone "We are going to track and database all of your online activities [we have been doing it in the past in secret, but now we will do it in your face]."
 
Phoenix333 said:
It's a problem because you're completely deprived of due process. The ISP basically acts as a proxy law enforcement agency. You can lose your service due to someone's paperwork screw up, then you have to prove you're innocent to get back the service that you've been paying for the whole time.
.
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Try using that argument if you get an infraction here.
 
eggrock said:
Try using that argument if you get an infraction here.
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By "here" do you mean on the [H]ardOCP forums? The [H] forums are not a service that I pay for. It's part of [H]ardOCP.com, a private website owned and operated by Kyle Bennett. Participation in the forums is a privilege that can be revoked at any time for any reason. There's no legal "right" for me or anyone else to be here, just as there's no legal requirement for Kyle to even provide a message board at all. In addition, should I do something that would result in me being blocked from the site, I am not cut off from the internet as a whole. There's a rather large difference between being a guest at a privately operated forum and being a paying customer to an internet service provider. I hope you can grasp the significance of that difference.
 
I'm still not quite sure how exactly you would "prove" you didn't download infringing material?

"Look, this is where my torr---I mean, downloads go, and it's not here. See? SEE?"
 
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