Is this possible? - [Hard]|OCP can no longer recommend Nvidia cards.

[PcZac]

I just got a 760 GTX, for $220 instead of a R9 270X. Why? Because it performs better than the R9 270X when they are both overclocked. G-Sync seems to be a more final product than mantle at the moment, I'll gladly switch to AMD in 4 years if mantle is used in a decent number of games I want. But right now mantle doesn't have any hard numbers and hasn't even been demonstrated on a game.

Also temps, cooling, and noise.

 

[TroyX]

some of you still don't know where AMD has the upper hand.

its the fact that developers will be coding games under AMD architecture 100% of the time starting as of now.

this means NVidia can challenge AMD GPU's in terms of frames per second and they will be right there or maybe get more fps but the games still wont run as smooth and fluid as AMD cards.

This is where Nvidia is going to have a hard time, and devs are not going to invest millions of dollars to optimize and change the console engines for NVidia gpu's due to Piracy, it just wont be worth the money and effort.

The way I look at it is that NVidia from this day on will pretty much be emulating AMD based engines and it will be the first time where NVidia will not have the upper hand in terms of ready drivers.

So much has changed that some of you don't see the big picture of what's really coming.

 

[NoOther]

Serious question... is the OP the guy who's been banned here a few times already? He sounds like that guy who used to go on and on about how NVIDIA was doomed because AMD won the consoles.


edit: I see that question's been answered. Thanks Neb.

Yeah, I thought it was pretty obvious from the thread title and reading the first few lines.

 

[Neb]

its the fact that developers will be coding games under AMD architecture 100% of the time starting as of now.

A fact, you say? 100%, you say? I think you may be exaggerating a touch.

 

[PcZac]

A fact, you say? 100%, you say? I think you may be exaggerating a touch.

Once I see big game engines like the Unreal Engine and CryEngine fully support mantle, I'll believe most games will be made for mantle. But until then, I doubt most developers will put that much work into it. Call of Duty and Skyrim are still using ancient engines.

 

[TroyX]

A fact, you say? 100%, you say? I think you may be exaggerating a touch.

you are trying to tell me that developers for Xbox One and PS4 are going to build game engines for some PC game that uses NVidia GPU first and then port them to PS4 and Xbox One.

I hope you don't believe that.

 

[PcZac]

you are trying to tell me that developers for Xbox One and PS4 are going to build game engines for some PC game that uses NVidia GPU first and then port them to PS4 and Xbox One.

I hope you don't believe that.

Most pc games are still built on DirectX, I don't see that changing overnight.

 

[AltTabbins]

you are trying to tell me that developers for Xbox One and PS4 are going to build game engines for some PC game that uses NVidia GPU first and then port them to PS4 and Xbox One.

I hope you don't believe that.

I hope you don't believe that game development is only usable on one gpu platform.

 

[TroyX]

Once I see big game engines like the Unreal Engine and CryEngine fully support mantle, I'll believe most games will be made for mantle. But until then, I doubt most developers will put that much work into it. Call of Duty and Skyrim are still using ancient engines.

Mantle has nothing to do with it, its the fact that next-gen consoles are not using NVidia GPU and no developer will be coding for it.

so basically Nvidia is left out to recode the entire game engine, like I said, don't expect NVidia to be on top in term of drivers once the Next-Gen consoles roll out.

Mantle's job is to take the already console code that is based on AMD architecture and port it over to PC with little or no effort.

 

[TroyX]

I hope you don't believe that game development is only usable on one gpu platform.

I hope you don't believe that PC games control the market.

X360 and PS3 have been controlling what's on PC and what's not since Xbox360 came out.

world is not as pretty as you think.

 

[Neb]

Once I see big game engines like the Unreal Engine and CryEngine fully support mantle, I'll believe most games will be made for mantle. But until then, I doubt most developers will put that much work into it. Call of Duty and Skyrim are still using ancient engines.

Agreed.

you are trying to tell me that developers for Xbox One and PS4 are going to build game engines for some PC game that uses NVidia GPU first and then port them to PS4 and Xbox One.

I hope you don't believe that.

When I see it I'll believe it, but until that happens it's certainly not a 100% fact yet.

 

[AltTabbins]

I hope you don't believe that PC games control the market.

X360 and PS3 have been controlling what's on PC and what's not since Xbox360 came out.

world is not as pretty as you think.

More fanboy console vs pc bullshit. Where did I say anything about what you are talking about? I'm not even going to argue with this anymore because you are as fanatical is the op, that has 3+ banned accounts spewing the same shit.

 

[TroyX]

More fanboy console vs pc bullshit. Where did I say anything about what you are talking about? I'm not even going to argue with this anymore because you are as fanatical is the op, that has 3+ banned accounts spewing the same shit.

I was talking in general, so calm down there, take a deep breath.

 

[Kardonxt]

Once I see big game engines like the Unreal Engine and CryEngine fully support mantle, I'll believe most games will be made for mantle. But until then, I doubt most developers will put that much work into it. Call of Duty and Skyrim are still using ancient engines.

Mantle allows devs to use code optimized for consoles with their PC ports. Since AMD is providing the GPUs for both next gen consoles any major engine should have solid mantle support.

Odds are any game that's not a pc exclusive will be using mantle.

 

[AltTabbins]

I was talking in general, so calm down there, take a deep breath.

Lol you think im mad? I would have used a face.
I'll just use this to discribe this entire thread.

 

[Neb]

I was talking in general, so calm down there, take a deep breath.

I hope you don't believe that.

I hope you don't believe that PC games control the market.
world is not as pretty as you think.

When you use condescending phrasing such as the above, you should expect retorts.

Mantle allows devs to use code optimized for consoles with their PC ports. Since AMD is providing the GPUs for both next gen consoles any major engine should have solid mantle support.

Odds are any game that's not a pc exclusive will be using mantle.

Yes, they can use mantle but ignoring DirectX optimization would be bad for their PC sales. According to the latest Steam hardware survey 52.3% of those surveyed were using Nvidia cards, with 32.2% using AMD.

More fanboy console vs pc bullshit. Where did I say anything about what you are talking about? I'm not even going to argue with this anymore because you are as fanatical is the op, that has 3+ banned accounts spewing the same shit.

Yeah, I had to look at the username after reading the post to double check, heh.

 

[PcZac]

Mantle has nothing to do with it, its the fact that next-gen consoles are not using NVidia GPU and no developer will be coding for it.

so basically Nvidia is left out to recode the entire game engine, like I said, don't expect NVidia to be on top in term of drivers once the Next-Gen consoles roll out.

Mantle's job is to take the already console code that is based on AMD architecture and port it over to PC with little or no effort.

The next gen engines are already made, most games this generation where made using UE3. And at least early on in this next gen, we'll see a lot of UE4 being used. Epic has always been "friendly" with Nvidia. I don't see most developers completely dropping Nvidia. Especially when a lot of them are making games on Nvidia hardware.

 

[pohzzer]

Most game development now is cross-platform between PC, XBox and Playstation. Microsoft and Sony certainly knew about Mantle during XBoxOne and PS4 development but chose to not support it. So now all Mantle will just be on PC where it competes with DirectX. Oh wait, maybe that's why Microsoft was not interested?

As AMD pointed out Mantle leverages console code to the PC. AMD doesn't need approval from Microsoft or Sony for Mantle success.

And then there's SteamOS, but that is being brought to you by Valve and Nvidia. So the PC gaming market will end up with two OSes - Windows and SteamOS - and three APIs - DirectX, OpenGL and Mantle. Oh yeah, I forgot, there is already an API that competes with DirectX that isn't even vendor-specific, and look how far it's gotten.

As Mantle developers would be providing a Mantle path in their PC ports, Steam OS would be at a considerable disadvantage competing against the Steam Windows version of the game. Steam OS accommodating Mantle is a near certainty.

 

[pohzzer]

Good god, speaking to you tools is like talking to a woman on her period. Buy what suits your needs at that time. Both sides have their downsides and upsides, neither is perfect. Get over it.


Nothing to see here, move on. Both companies are guilty.

Specious generalizations rarely illuminate a debate.

 

[pohzzer]

Amen! Would be nice to have a "No Entitled Little Bitches Allowed" video card forum.

You do. Being utterly free to not visit threads that annoy you or ignore posters that annoy you.

Give it a try.

 

[pohzzer]

AMD has around 1/3 of the GPU gaming market at best

No game developer would code for the smallest market share. Unless AMD paid them to and AMD is borderline bankrupt.

NVIDIA and Intel have the greastest marketshare and it's pretty much always been that way.

Mantle is a marketing keyword that AMD is pushing right now. Although the hype died quickly when it was found out that neither console would support it.

Seeing as manifest reality says a number of developers are, in fact, including a Mantle path in their games, and AMD verified neither Sony's nor Microsoft's 'support' is necessary for Mantle to work, your post can be considered pure flame bait. Please address and debate specific points raised. Flame bait posts unnecessarily degrade the conversation while adding nothing of value to it.

 

[pohzzer]

Lol.. this thread.
Who the hell is the OP anyways? New account, joins the forum swinging flamebait around. Smells like shill.

A provocatively named thread is NOT flame bait if it is backed by well thought out and rational arguments as proof of the validity of the thread title.

Please debate a specific POINT I raised if you consider it bogus instead of just coming on my thread and accusing it of being flame bait while offering zero counterpoints or arguments to illustrate why and how my OP thinking is wrong.

 

[trungracingdev]

Everyone must have forgotten the AMD release price of $550 for their 7970 nearly 2 years ago.

Im on neither side of the fence as I choose which GPU suits me at the time of purchase but both companies have gouged on prices. AMD gouged on the 7970 pretty badly @ $550 release price.

Are you serious? You are comparing a $550 7970 to a $650 780gtx, a $700 780ti and a $1000 Titan? What's wrong with this picture? By your argument, the 290x is screwing the consumer as well?

 

[Michaelius]

A provocatively named thread is NOT flame bait if it is backed by well thought out and rational arguments as proof of the validity of the thread title.

Please debate a specific POINT I raised if you consider it bogus instead of just coming on my thread and accusing it of being flame bait while offering zero counterpoints or arguments to illustrate why and how my OP thinking is wrong.

Can you help me find them ? I don't see any such things in first post.

 

[Neb]

A provocatively named thread is NOT flame bait if it is backed by well thought out and rational arguments as proof of the validity of the thread title.

Please debate a specific POINT I raised if you consider it bogus instead of just coming on my thread and accusing it of being flame bait while offering zero counterpoints or arguments to illustrate why and how my OP thinking is wrong.

I provide rational, well thought out arguments in a series of cogent points to back my thread titles.
...
Thread titles are supposed to be worded to spark interest. The test of whether that wording is valid, trollish or flamebait lies in the validity of the points and arguments the opening post makes to back that thread title. If the points and arguments fall on the cogent, rational and logical side of the fence and directly pertain to the thread title, it is a valid title, not a trollish or flamebait title.

In case there was any doubt it was Spigzone. Thanks Spigzone, I think you've answered my question quite succinctly.

 

[pohzzer]

Not attacking you, but spigzone is that you with another account?

I don't know who this Spigzone is, I'm merely pointing out the obvious. Mantle appears to have plenty of developer support, appears to be bringing substantial performance gains and added to what the 290 cards bring to the table, it puts Nvidia in a very untenable position. Possibly so untenable a site like HardOCP might not be able to recommend Nvidia cards until such time as Nvidia improves it position vs. AMD and HardOCP can again recommend their cards.

I merely see this as a definite POSSIBILITY and wanted to start a dialogue about it on the site it most applies to.

 

[rudy]

The OPs argument is silly as are most of the comments because he completely misses the obvious answer. Anytime in the history of computing one of the largest factors in selecting ANY component is performance for a PRICE. If AMD blows NVidia away then NVidia can simply lower the price on their cards and regain the price / performance ratio. If the OP was correct then H would not have been able to recommend AMD CPUs for years now. But because AMD simply lowered the price they achieved reasonable value status.

 

[pohzzer]

Are you serious? You are comparing a $550 7970 to a $650 780gtx, a $700 780ti and a $1000 Titan? What's wrong with this picture? By your argument, the 290x is screwing the consumer as well?

Until aftermarket cards come on line AMD did kinda screw 290x buyers by introducing a nearly identically performing card for $150 cheaper.

 

[pohzzer]

Can you help me find them ? I don't see any such things in first post.

Then you should have no problem illustrating the error of my points. Until you do that you're blowing hot air.

 

[pohzzer]

The OPs argument is silly as are most of the comments because he completely misses the obvious answer. Anytime in the history of computing one of the largest factors in selecting ANY component is performance for a PRICE. If AMD blows NVidia away then NVidia can simply lower the price on their cards and regain the price / performance ratio. If the OP was correct then H would not have been able to recommend AMD CPUs for years now. But because AMD simply lowered the price they achieved reasonable value status.

The 290 cards are already cost/performance leaders in their categories, even against Nvidia's lowered prices. After market cards and driver improvements will widen that gap and Nvidia will be forced to lower prices further to stay cost/performance competitive.

If there is wide developer support, and that looks probable, Nvidia will have to further lower their prices in proportion to Mantle's performance gains IF they are to stay at cost/performance parity. The high end market is where people pay attention and know what's happening. If Mantle brings game changing performance gains to Mantle games (probable) Nvidia's already thin margins, and remember their silicon die size already puts them at a 20%cost disadvantage, will disappear. To maintain actual cost performance parity with AMD might require Nvidia sell at a loss. That's not going to happen. Very untenable. Sale of Nvidia high end cards will plummet AND the margins of the cards they do sell will be very thin. This would be the case until Maxwell releases in Q4, 2014, and that is no certainty as AMD will be ready with 20nm Kaveri 3.0 and GCN 3.0 GPUs and retain, or even increase, their Mantle advangtage.

 

[rudy]

The 290 cards are already cost/performance leaders in their categories, even against Nvidia's lowered prices. After market cards and driver improvements will widen that gap and Nvidia will be forced to lower prices further to stay cost/performance competitive.

If there is wide developer support, and that looks probable, Nvidia will have to further lower their prices in proportion to Mantle's performance gains IF they are to stay at cost/performance parity. The high end market is where people pay attention and know what's happening. If Mantle beings game changing performance gains to Mantle games (probable) Nvidia's already thin margins, and remember their silicon die size already puts them at a 20%cost disadvantage, will disappear. To maintain actual cost performance parity with AMD might require Nvidia sell at a loss. That's not going to happen. Very untenable. Sale of Nvidia high end cards will plummet AND the margins of the cards they do sell will be very thin. This would be the case until Maxwell releases in Q4, 2014, and that is no certainty as AMD will be ready with 20nm Kaveri 3.0 and GCN 3.0 GPUs.

You have a point? AMD has been running on fumes since Phenom their isn't any surplus of cash to take them through a price war.

 

[AltTabbins]

I don't know who this Spigzone is

C'mon. You even use the same sentances and phrases in every thread you have created on every one of your accounts. Things like "brings to the table" are used by you on all of your accounts ad nouseam. Don't even get me started on or the way your paragraphs are structured.

 

[pohzzer]

You have a point? AMD has been running on fumes since Phenom their isn't any surplus of cash to take them through a price war.

The idea here is that the combination of factors I outlined would allow AMD to maintain healthy margins while driving Nvidia margins to near cost even as they rapidly grow their AIB market share vs. Nvidia.

As for AMD 'running on fumes', they were able to design, engineer and bring to manufacture two massive custom console chips, a killer competitive new high end GPU chip, a new high end HSA/hUMA APU with GCN 2.0 graphics, two lines of small architecture HSA/GCN chips coming this summer and their ARM based GCN server chip also coming this year. Plus whatever else they are working on.

It's scary to think what they could have accomplished if they had a surplus of cash to draw upon.

 

[Michaelius]

Then you should have no problem illustrating the error of my points. Until you do that you're blowing hot air.

Simple - show me a list of annouced Mantle games and a benchmark results.

Because so far your argument is build on AMD PR twitt, two companies who were members of AMD gaming evolved participation and Star Citizen which is also running nvidia prioprietary technologies and another twitter from activision guy who was "enthusiastic" about it.

 

[WorldExclusive]

Mantle this, Mantle that. Any reviews on it?

By the way, it will only be in one game this year. The other games are far from their release dates.

 

[pohzzer]

Simple - show me a list of annouced Mantle games and a benchmark results.

Because so far your argument is build on AMD PR twitt, two companies who were members of AMD gaming evolved participation and Star Citizen which is also running nvidia prioprietary technologies and another twitter from activision guy who was "enthusiastic" about it.

Quote and refute/argue specific points in the OP or one of my replies or you're blowing hot air. It's a simple enough concept and the PROPER way to debate in a thread. Why are you finding this so hard to do?

 

[pohzzer]

Mantle this, Mantle that. Any reviews on it?

By the way, it will only be in one game this year. The other games are far from their release dates.

BF4 will be the first game released.

AMD said in their GPU13 slide 'designed in collaboration with top developers' and said mantle was years in the making.

When the next game after BF4 releases is unknown at this time but it might well be sooner than later considering the above.

 

[PcZac]

IF a threshold is reached in Mantle developer support, Mantle performance gains and AMD high end GPU cost/performance.

IF. If there is enough support, development, and performance benefits.

The GPU question is answered, the 290 and 290x brought the sledgehammer down on Nvidia's mature cards at introduction with substantial driver and aftermarket performance gains to come.

Overclocked performance comparisons aren't completely in AMD's favor, and the cards run hot.

When I see - "with Battlefield 4 running with Mantle the card (290x) will be able to 'ridicule' the Titan in terms of performance" (AMD exec) and " which lets us see dramatic increases in performance on Mantle-enabled systems" (Oxide site) - I'm thinking Mantle gains are going to be on the kick ass side of the meter.

I wish people would stop comparing cards against the Titan, it's a card between their gaming and their professional line. It is not meant to have the best cost per performance for gaming. AMD execs can say whatever they want and will. I will wait until we get numbers and benchmarks before I make assumptions.

We know EA./Dice are big on Mantle - "Super exited about Mantle!" (GPU13 slide and yes their emphasis) and Eidos Montreal, Oxide and Star Citizen just came out as Mantle users, Eidos Montreal is owned my Square Enix, so they would appear to be on board, Star Citizen uses Cry Engine 4 so Crytek appears to be on board, though that was expected, and Oxide is building what they consider the definitive real time strategy engine for next gen games. Activision's principal technical director tweeted "We'll have to support #Mantle now; wish it was just #OpenGL extensions though! Maybe someone will lightly wrap D3D or GL around it for us?" so looks like they're on board.

Crytek hasn't said anything, the Unreal Engine 3 was the most used engine this generation, and UE4 will likely be the most used engine next generation, and so far, they've been really friendly with Nvidia, I wouldn't expect them to use mantle any time soon.

EA/Dice, Square Enix, Crytek, Oxide, Activision ... already formidable and more can be expected at APU13. The question is what AAA developer can competitively afford to ignore Mantle if it enjoys wide developer support and brings game changing performance gains to the table?

Crytek doesn't count (one developer doesn't mean the whole engine will change), Activision is a publisher, that unlike EA, doesn't have their own game engine. Also I typically avoid EA games, and I know a lot of people do not like the publisher.

The 290 cards are new and running shitty coolers. What will HardOCP's Battlefield Mantle review look like with an aftermarket cooler, driver optimizations and Mantle? A cost/performance delta of 30%, 40%? Recommending an Nvidia card for BF4 would be out of the question. Extrapolate that out six months when several more developers are on board with Mantle, Nvidia would have to sell their boards at a loss to stay in the cost/performance ballpark on mantle games and AMD has at least parity on non Mantle games.

If mantle is that good, Nvidia find ways to support it or make their own, they wont be left in the dust. You can hope that the 290 series will perform better with aftermarket coolers, but we'll have to wait and see. Games take longer than 6 months to make, many devs will not tack on mantle at the end of production.

I would contend if the developer support is substantial and growing (probable) and Mantle brings game changing performance gains (probable) there will come a time when HardOCP will say they can no longer, in good faith, recommend Nvidia boards.

I'd wait until I see it in games to assume things.

 

[trungracingdev]

Until aftermarket cards come on line AMD did kinda screw 290x buyers by introducing a nearly identically performing card for $150 cheaper.

Might as well compare it to nvidia while you are at it. 780gtx, 780ti and titan. 290x vs 290 is similar to the 7970 vs 7950. I don't see any difference.

 

[PcZac]

The Titan isn't a gaming card, the 780ti is coming out about 6 months after the 780 GTX